Every time I shoot a fade with the current shotgun I think about this video.. it doesn't stop me from just trying to aim dead center of the fade.... but it does make me contemplate why I ever buy shotguns. The shotgun was good earlier on, what build was it when the shotgun was really effective? pre 190? & what was the difference?
<!--quoteo(post=1965626:date=Aug 21 2012, 05:27 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Aug 21 2012, 05:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965626"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->less pellets = more consistency. Anywhere from 12-16 is good. You can get even more consistent by adding damage falloff over range which allows you to remove more pellets, that's what TF2 does. 9 Pellets arranged in a grid pattern for all the shotgun type weapons.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why is less pellets more consistent? When using a random spread (or a randomly rotated spread) then less pellets will give you a higher chance of missing more damage that would otherwise hit. Where as having more pellets gives you a more constant gradiant from 100% damage to 0% damage.
If you have 10000 pellets randomly distributed then your percentage of hits will almost certainly reflect the portion of your spread that is occupied by the target. If the target is 50% of your spread surface area, then you'd expect 50% damage on each shot.
If you have 1 pellet randomly distributed across the same surface area area then you would expect every shot to either be 100% damage or 0% damage with an average out to 50%. This situation could be very inconsistent because you could RNG a miss multiple times in a row or RNG a hit multiple times in a row. Less pellets is less consistent when any random distribution or rotating spread is involved.
<!--quoteo(post=1965641:date=Aug 21 2012, 06:18 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 21 2012, 06:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is less pellets more consistent? When using a random spread (or a randomly rotated spread) then less pellets will give you a higher chance of missing more damage that would otherwise hit. Where as having more pellets gives you a more constant gradiant from 100% damage to 0% damage.
If you have 10000 pellets randomly distributed then your percentage of hits will almost certainly reflect the portion of your spread that is occupied by the target. If the target is 50% of your spread surface area, then you'd expect 50% damage on each shot.
If you have 1 pellet randomly distributed across the same surface area area then you would expect every shot to either be 100% damage or 0% damage with an average out to 50%. This situation could be very inconsistent because you could RNG a miss multiple times in a row or RNG a hit multiple times in a row. Less pellets is less consistent when any random distribution or rotating spread is involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The argument here is that random spread is bad in any case and there is no need for it. 9 pellets (the least you can have) is more consistent because there are less combinations of pellets that can hit the alien. As in missing diagonally will always hit 1 or 4 pellets, etc, so there are less "degrees" of inaccurately. You won't hit for 3-4 less damage just because the skulk was a pixel off. With damage reduction over range and 9 pellets you can still get the damage to scale perfectly as you would expect with a shotgun with as little randomness as possible. This doesn't need to be attributed to any sort of "realism" since damage and visual effects can be separate.
What you're talking about is pretty much the exact opposite method of balancing shotguns that is employed in NS2. That's fine. Static spread that doesn't rotate and damage that falls off over distance could be used to balance the shotgun. I think they could completley revamp the shotgun to work like this, but it would need multiple passes to ensure a powerful yet balanced close range weapon.
A more reasonable suggestion given how it's currently being handled is to simply up the pellet count and proportionally reduce the damage of each pellet. It keeps all the current shotgun mechanics and just makes it a bit more consistent.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited August 2012
<!--quoteo(post=1965658:date=Aug 21 2012, 04:30 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Aug 21 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965658"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The argument here is that random spread is bad in any case and there is no need for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> See the above mentioned 3rd party downloadable crosshairs that displayed the static shotgun pattern from some versions of NS1.
As far as artificial falloffs go... why? If the spread is increased so as to facilitate it's role.. there's zero need for falloffs? Falloffs can be frustrating as they are not communicated or intuitive in any means.. hell the whole reason this topic exists is because of the frustration that comes from pointing at the enemy, firing, and not hitting them (or as much as you'd expect to).. what do you think bringing back falloffs would do? Falloffs are the bandaid that is applied because you wish to simulate (key word here) the role of the weapon by lessening it's effect over a distance.
A larger spread accomplishes this without such a hacky, invisible mechanic.
BTW, In no way does less pellets = more consistency. "is more consistent because there are less combinations of pellets that can hit the alien." What you just said is: "Its more consistently unreliable".. I dont think this thread is about increasing the unreliable nature of the shotgun.
I agree, that a more reliable distribution of the pellets would be better. There are some very good suggestion of how it could look in this thread.
I don't agree to the people that say the shotgun is to weak right now. I think it is very balanced. It shouldn't be a reliable skulk one-shotter. It is already a very good lerk and fade counter. And this weapon gets used in pub and comp games. So it can't be that bad. Some people just wish for a weapon that makes them to rambos, so they can kill every alien alone. A skulk is already easy killable by 2 shots before he is in bite range.
I dont think you want to make the shotgun any better atm, already will probably be somewhat OP with coming carapace fix since you can go instant shotguns (which is dumb). In NS1 the relatively small grouping of a few pellets required that you aimed pretty much dead center on the skulk to get a oneshot kill, in NS2 it arguably feels that you do not need to be as precise. I do think that eventually the size of the skulk model will become a problem, along with the somewhat slower base speed (walljump storing of speed mechanic removes much of the skill required to use fluidly in battle, and makes it awkward to shoot as the skulk can slow down and speed up quite significatly). I would much rather see wallhop work like bhop used to work where you start moving faster and faster but that momentum is not stored, and mistakes cause you to loose the momentum. I also think that the hit mechanic from NS1 needs to be brought over where it would somewhat interfer with your aim when you were hit by an alien. At the same time as that change however I think there needs to be improvements made to marine movement.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=1965850:date=Aug 22 2012, 02:40 PM:name=Yuuki)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Yuuki @ Aug 22 2012, 02:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1965850"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The stored velocity goes against all laws of physics and basic intuition. It's most likely a bug.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Pretty sure it's intentional, it's always been described as an energy storing mechanic by the people working on it.
<!--quoteo(post=1958584:date=Aug 7 2012, 10:57 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 7 2012, 10:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958584"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The NS1 bloodsplats were serverside actually, that's what made them so great for player hit feedback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wall decals on the other hand were client side. Hence why we always told someone to shoot the hive to see the pattern rather than shooting a wall.
we're how far into the future and were using shotguns that still have random spread. Your average shotgun nowadays has an effective range of about 30 yards give or take depending on the density of metal used in the slug/shot, choke used, and the type of load and grain of powder. I propose your average space shotgun should at least be using something similar to the PDX slug/buckshot combo. also, why no nanite auto adjustable super space magic choke?
Reading this made me think about the shotgun spread in Quake Live.
Some time ago they changed it to be the same every time or just very slightly different. There are people in this thread who claim that this solution would make the shotgun OP due to it's predictability.
In Quake Live that particular change to the shotgun actually made hordes of players cry "YOU NERFED IT TO HELL!". Why? Because it made the shotgun worse at longer distances.
Having a predictable spread makes the shotgun reliably good at close range and reliably bad at long range. You'll completely shred anything that's very close, you'll mostly shred something that's kind of close and you'll get a few pellets on something that's some distance away.
This is how shotguns are supposed to work in games. I saw some people trying to bring realism into this. Let's not. It's not a good idea. This is a game and should be treated as such. It should reward clutch play such as baiting an opponent in and getting a well aimed shot at him and it should not reward a lucky spread on a badly aimed shot or a long range shot.
I personally find all this very simple. I hope the developers share my opinions on how shotguns should work and do some kind of tweak to the current spread.
This is a super old thread, what's the current state of the shotgun spread? I see no reason for it to be random at all if it still is. Literally the only purpose of a random spread is to make it so that sometimes a correctly-aimed shotgun will not do full damage, which is a bad thing.
<!--quoteo(post=2029169:date=Nov 19 2012, 01:47 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 19 2012, 01:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029169"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is a super old thread, what's the current state of the shotgun spread? I see no reason for it to be random at all if it still is. Literally the only purpose of a random spread is to make it so that sometimes a correctly-aimed shotgun will not do full damage, which is a bad thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An update, I have just replotted the coords for the spread in the current .lua, and yes. It is still the exact same spread with the exact same problems as posted in the OP:
bump! Still needs to be addressed. Biggest issue is that in order to hit the middle 3 pellets you need to hit a skulk within about 2 pixels of his center point, otherwise the damage would practically be random, most of the time being about 30 or so. Example: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wj8x9jF_trM#t=1071s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...9jF_trM#t=1071s</a> you can see near-perfect shots doing 34 damage. This means that with anything other than constant perfect shots a rifle would be a much better choice against skulks, or even a pistol. With NS2's performance problems especially this makes the shotgun an annoying weapon to use, as the time between shots is enough for a skulk to kill you if he gets several bites in in a row. The spread is also way too small. Those same 3 pellets can still hit long range, even though short range being a pixel off would mean the difference between a one shot and 31 damage, that's pretty insane.
Why do we have to have random spread. It adds NOTHING to the game. TF2 uses defined spread for its competitive games, and it actually adds to the meta, rather than just hoping for good spread (read: if you're at mid-range its better to aim at the waist rather than the chest so more pellets hit).
<!--quoteo(post=2046928:date=Dec 16 2012, 10:55 PM:name=pendelum5)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pendelum5 @ Dec 16 2012, 10:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046928"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why not add a competitive option to make the pellets fire in a 3x3 tic-tac-toe grid, with the center having 2 pellets?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because that would be way too sensible. UWE cannot possibly go for such a simple solution. They never have and always try to take the most complicated approach to everything.
<!--quoteo(post=2046974:date=Dec 16 2012, 09:39 PM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Dec 16 2012, 09:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because that would be way too sensible. UWE cannot possibly go for such a simple solution. They never have and always try to take the most complicated approach to everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is that it implies that all the pellets (flechette? not sure what this shotgun uses) hits the target. To be honest, I think the LMG is better because if you focus more you can land more shots by shooting only when you get huge opportunities. With the shotgun, you can be shooting at them, sure - but if they're more than 12 yards away your damage is diminished simply because the grouping is so spread out. Anything further than 12 yards is similar to 12 yards, if not worse. And under 12 yards you are generally being attacked which is never great unless you know your commander is going to drop nano and meds.. in which case the aliens can just flee and wait until you're no longer being supplemented.
In all honesty, I'd prefer the resources be put into jetpacks and flamethrowers because then one person can get a flamethrower with or without a jetpack depending on your res situation.. then fades fleeing have low energy and you can chase them down with an LMG + jetpack.
Shots (seconds) needed to kill a carapace fade with a rifle? L0 / L1 / L2 / L3 45(2.464s) | 41(2.24s) | 38(2.072s) | 35(1.904s) |
3 shots, <b>assuming all the shot hits..</b> <---- Bolded because it's important to note.. how often does all the shot really hit at range? :P Actually, just watch the vid and count the missed shots.. often-times the shots are doing half of their supposed damage.. making the above values for "shotgun shots" almost double required....
Comments
Why is less pellets more consistent? When using a random spread (or a randomly rotated spread) then less pellets will give you a higher chance of missing more damage that would otherwise hit. Where as having more pellets gives you a more constant gradiant from 100% damage to 0% damage.
If you have 10000 pellets randomly distributed then your percentage of hits will almost certainly reflect the portion of your spread that is occupied by the target. If the target is 50% of your spread surface area, then you'd expect 50% damage on each shot.
If you have 1 pellet randomly distributed across the same surface area area then you would expect every shot to either be 100% damage or 0% damage with an average out to 50%. This situation could be very inconsistent because you could RNG a miss multiple times in a row or RNG a hit multiple times in a row. Less pellets is less consistent when any random distribution or rotating spread is involved.
If you have 10000 pellets randomly distributed then your percentage of hits will almost certainly reflect the portion of your spread that is occupied by the target. If the target is 50% of your spread surface area, then you'd expect 50% damage on each shot.
If you have 1 pellet randomly distributed across the same surface area area then you would expect every shot to either be 100% damage or 0% damage with an average out to 50%. This situation could be very inconsistent because you could RNG a miss multiple times in a row or RNG a hit multiple times in a row. Less pellets is less consistent when any random distribution or rotating spread is involved.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The argument here is that random spread is bad in any case and there is no need for it. 9 pellets (the least you can have) is more consistent because there are less combinations of pellets that can hit the alien. As in missing diagonally will always hit 1 or 4 pellets, etc, so there are less "degrees" of inaccurately. You won't hit for 3-4 less damage just because the skulk was a pixel off. With damage reduction over range and 9 pellets you can still get the damage to scale perfectly as you would expect with a shotgun with as little randomness as possible. This doesn't need to be attributed to any sort of "realism" since damage and visual effects can be separate.
A more reasonable suggestion given how it's currently being handled is to simply up the pellet count and proportionally reduce the damage of each pellet. It keeps all the current shotgun mechanics and just makes it a bit more consistent.
See the above mentioned 3rd party downloadable crosshairs that displayed the static shotgun pattern from some versions of NS1.
As far as artificial falloffs go... why?
If the spread is increased so as to facilitate it's role.. there's zero need for falloffs?
Falloffs can be frustrating as they are not communicated or intuitive in any means.. hell the whole reason this topic exists is because of the frustration that comes from pointing at the enemy, firing, and not hitting them (or as much as you'd expect to).. what do you think bringing back falloffs would do? Falloffs are the bandaid that is applied because you wish to simulate (key word here) the role of the weapon by lessening it's effect over a distance.
A larger spread accomplishes this without such a hacky, invisible mechanic.
BTW, In no way does less pellets = more consistency. "is more consistent because there are less combinations of pellets that can hit the alien."
What you just said is: "Its more consistently unreliable".. I dont think this thread is about increasing the unreliable nature of the shotgun.
I don't agree to the people that say the shotgun is to weak right now. I think it is very balanced. It shouldn't be a reliable skulk one-shotter. It is already a very good lerk and fade counter. And this weapon gets used in pub and comp games. So it can't be that bad. Some people just wish for a weapon that makes them to rambos, so they can kill every alien alone. A skulk is already easy killable by 2 shots before he is in bite range.
Pretty sure it's intentional, it's always been described as an energy storing mechanic by the people working on it.
I'm colorblind :D
Wall decals on the other hand were client side. Hence why we always told someone to shoot the hive to see the pattern rather than shooting a wall.
<img src="http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/shotgun-chokes.gif" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/PDX1-Segmenting-Shotshell-Slug-Elements.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Some time ago they changed it to be the same every time or just very slightly different.
There are people in this thread who claim that this solution would make the shotgun OP due to it's predictability.
In Quake Live that particular change to the shotgun actually made hordes of players cry "YOU NERFED IT TO HELL!".
Why? Because it made the shotgun worse at longer distances.
Having a predictable spread makes the shotgun reliably good at close range and reliably bad at long range.
You'll completely shred anything that's very close, you'll mostly shred something that's kind of close and you'll get a few pellets on something that's some distance away.
This is how shotguns are supposed to work in games.
I saw some people trying to bring realism into this. Let's not. It's not a good idea. This is a game and should be treated as such.
It should reward clutch play such as baiting an opponent in and getting a well aimed shot at him and it should not reward a lucky spread on a badly aimed
shot or a long range shot.
I personally find all this very simple. I hope the developers share my opinions on how shotguns should work and do some kind of tweak to the current spread.
An update, I have just replotted the coords for the spread in the current .lua, and yes. It is still the exact same spread with the exact same problems as posted in the OP:
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/Uv3dU.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
Example: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wj8x9jF_trM#t=1071s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...9jF_trM#t=1071s</a>
you can see near-perfect shots doing 34 damage. This means that with anything other than constant perfect shots a rifle would be a much better choice against skulks, or even a pistol. With NS2's performance problems especially this makes the shotgun an annoying weapon to use, as the time between shots is enough for a skulk to kill you if he gets several bites in in a row. The spread is also way too small. Those same 3 pellets can still hit long range, even though short range being a pixel off would mean the difference between a one shot and 31 damage, that's pretty insane.
Because that would be way too sensible. UWE cannot possibly go for such a simple solution. They never have and always try to take the most complicated approach to everything.
what
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=117569" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=117569</a>
Is that it implies that all the pellets (flechette? not sure what this shotgun uses) hits the target. To be honest, I think the LMG is better because if you focus more you can land more shots by shooting only when you get huge opportunities. With the shotgun, you can be shooting at them, sure - but if they're more than 12 yards away your damage is diminished simply because the grouping is so spread out. Anything further than 12 yards is similar to 12 yards, if not worse. And under 12 yards you are generally being attacked which is never great unless you know your commander is going to drop nano and meds.. in which case the aliens can just flee and wait until you're no longer being supplemented.
In all honesty, I'd prefer the resources be put into jetpacks and flamethrowers because then one person can get a flamethrower with or without a jetpack depending on your res situation.. then fades fleeing have low energy and you can chase them down with an LMG + jetpack.
Shots (seconds) needed to kill a carapace fade with a rifle?
L0 / L1 / L2 / L3
45(2.464s) | 41(2.24s) | 38(2.072s) | 35(1.904s) |
Yeah.
Shotgun shots? (<b>carapace fade</b>)
L0 / L1 / L2 / L3
3 | 3 | 3 | 3 |
3 shots, <b>assuming all the shot hits..</b> <---- Bolded because it's important to note.. how often does all the shot really hit at range? :P Actually, just watch the vid and count the missed shots.. often-times the shots are doing half of their supposed damage.. making the above values for "shotgun shots" almost double required....
*shrug* impo the spread could be tighter.