As Predicted 3rd Hive Onos major impact to Pub Balance
statikg
Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
Title says it all I think. Just playing a few rounds tonight where aliens would have won for sure earlier today. 2 Hives 5 RTs, but without that eventual midgame onos drop the marines can just hold so much more through th emidgame and get full tech before you have any onos.
Don't get me wrong, I think the change is a great long term pain for the game, but I think that now the weakness of the rest of the alien lifeforms at any offensive action is going to become really glaring.
Don't get me wrong, I think the change is a great long term pain for the game, but I think that now the weakness of the rest of the alien lifeforms at any offensive action is going to become really glaring.
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Don't get me wrong, I think the change is a great long term pain for the game, but I think that now the weakness of the rest of the alien lifeforms at any offensive action is going to become really glaring.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
only thing too weak on aliens is the fade's hp/armor, nothing wrong w/the rest of the units
Come now. If, after surviving an early Onos drop, the marines are at the very least balanced when facing off against 2 hive aliens, what do you think is going to happen when arguably the aliens biggest "tech upgrade" and main use for late game resources is removed almost entirely. I understand that this is a small step towards a bigger goal of making the Onos a players lifeform choice, rather than a comms only resource sink, but to think that this patch will be fair in the late game is naive.
I don't know if UWE are still operating in beta mode, but you simply cannot make experimental changes like this. The massive increase to crag and shade power was a similar situation. Whether or not they work out or are balanced it irrelevant. Its reckless.
Marine teams are still generally horrible (no idea why), and I'm predicting that due to stacking issues or non-starting games (2v2 or 3v3 for 2-3 minutes or camo with incompetent marine com), aliens will actually still continue to win the majority of games.
Good riddance, onos spam. You won't be missed.
It is way to early to really tell though, give it a few weeks of play.
It is way to early to really tell though, give it a few weeks of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The same way you prevent marines from rushing jetpacks or exos, or aliens from dropping fade eggs the second the second hive goes up. You place tech barriers in the way that make the investment in the lifeform too much of a risk to under take. The fade has blink. The Exo has level 3 armour. The jetpack has a combination of advanced armory weapons, weapon upgrades and armor upgrades.
No marine commander is going to research exos while having anything less than level 2 armour and welders researched. No sane marine would buy a jetpack with only level 1 weapons and armor. Alien players are highly reluctant to go fade without blink, nevermind adrenaline.
The Onos' inability to scale with multiple upgrades is its biggest strength, and its why they can be rushed while other tech cannot.
It is way to early to really tell though, give it a few weeks of play.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pres.
or you can adjust from dropping onos to dropping fade? it makes way lot more sense than the 5 minutes onos drop.
edit: grammar
or you can adjust dropping onos to dropping fade? it makes way lot more sense than the 5 minutes onos drop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Aliens never needed resource towers, they needed tech points. The Onos change increases their reliance on tech points, while reducing their ability to take them. That doesn't really matter though. Fact of the matter is that 90% of all time spent after the 5 minute mark has aliens holding 2 hives, no more, sometimes less. The move of tres Onos from 2 to 3 hives is essentially the removal of tres Onos.
Also, the 3/4 RT / 2 hives is the competitive game norm.
In pub games, things can go very differently :-) .
Also, the 3/4 RT / 2 hives is the competitive game norm.
In pub games, things can go very differently :-) .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Really? So you've seen a non one sided game where aliens controlled more than 2 hives? I don't buy it.
If aliens are winning 60% of games but spending 90% of that time not bothering to get a third hive, it's because they're idiots (stomp and umbra, if nothing else, are entirely worth getting). Make the fade and lerk more viable lifeforms for the midgame, and let the onos be a massive stompy unit. Pubs will learn to play in a fashion that doesn't involve early onos spam, and with any luck we might actually see more of the two midgame units being used.
I might hazard that they are. Even the twitter post that appears in-game labels the update as B230.
Give it time. Complaining this early is just outright irresponsible.
If a game is 15 minutes long, and the alien team gets a second hive at 5 minutes, their third hive will be at like 13 and a half minutes. The third hive is the game ender, as long as there are two hives, the game continues. That's why 90% of the time is spent with 2 hives.
Marine teams are still generally horrible (no idea why), and I'm predicting that due to stacking issues or non-starting games (2v2 or 3v3 for 2-3 minutes or camo with incompetent marine com), aliens will actually still continue to win the majority of games.
Good riddance, onos spam. You won't be missed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, the 6 pool of NS is going to skew the balance for aliens!
I'm starting to hate you all just a little bit....
I was seeing them for 3 days straight over the weekend. I don't know if everyone was intentionally stacking aliens or something, but it was the most terrible NS2 weekend that I've had over the last 2 months and a half.
If aliens have res domination, or at least res contention, the third tech point will come probably sooner than later. There is no need for a 5 or even 8-9 minute onos for that to happen, just good lerks, fades, gorges, and teamwork.
Of course, an onos is helpful, at the appropriate time, using p.res. And when it's lost, it's lost.
No more training wheels, no more egg spam. Hardcore as NS2 is meant to be.
I only see one significant problem with this change. The map that's always been the "odd one out" - veil. Balanced games on veil aren't 3v2 tech points, they're always 2v2 and one side usually wins when they secure 3 tech points. This means no onos eggs on veil for aliens, period. Gotta make those p.res oni count :-) .
<!--quoteo(post=2029823:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:27 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Nov 20 2012, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029823"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah, the 6 pool of NS is going to skew the balance for aliens!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not "6 pool" anymore when one of the six is an elephant.
Like many people suggested before, weapon and armor upgrades representing the number of CCs and/or jps/EXOs.
Jetpacks need to remain at 2 cc. Marines need jetpacks to oppose fades and lerks effectively in the midgame.
Dual exos can be moved to 3 cc perhaps as well as GL, although that's debatable because dual exos are the mirror to onos, and on maps like veil, that'll disable the ability of marines to get dual exos at all.
The bigger issue is that the onos egg drop was really just a symptom of borked alien balance in general, usually they just sit at 2 - 3 extractors while marines sit at 5. The onos was often a sort of equaliser (and beyond that really) as it came at a time when aliens threatened to just lose the game entirely, simply because at 2 - 3 extractors marines would rapidly out-tech them.
I'd like to see some competitive matches now, I'm pretty convinced not a single one will be won by aliens if equally skilled teams are involved. Gotta love UWE balancing.
But, let's see how it turns out first. :)
Just research the ability to drop onos eggs. Lengthens it by two factors: Resource Investment and Time.
I don't like Exo's being mid-game tech now though. If you deny that third hive it's pretty much an eventual win for Marines other factors being somewhat equal. Gorge Bile Bomb stacking with a shift is certainly an interesting combination for anti-Exo, it's just tough to find a place where it works well and getting a team to do it. My only issue is that Fades are still somewhat underwhelming, especially as the most expensive two hive life form I can drop. They <i>do not</i> fare well versus Exo's, and Lerks aren't much better. In a way, the Aliens are punished for having higher life-forms once there are a few Exo's.
Hive maturity ties into the health / armor of the hive, which can have a big impact on its survivability.
If you're going to slow down maturity to stall the appearance of a t.res onos, there will undoubtedly be an increased chance of hive death due to a lack of said increased health / armor.
Perhaps if they untied maturity to the hive's health / armor somehow, but personally I wouldn't want slower maturity (and thus weaker) hives for the opportunity to drop an onos egg.
<!--quoteo(post=2029907:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:07 AM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Nov 20 2012, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->My only issue is that Fades are still somewhat underwhelming, especially as the most expensive two hive life form I can drop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely agree. It would be nice to see a small buff in armor just so they were a more viable option, especially since they're the best egg drop at 2 hives now. It'd be nice to encourage alien players to improve their fade skills (which, arguably carries over to skulk skills, with the hit-and-run mentality) by providing a slight fade buff.
Move Tres Onos back to two hives. Make the Khammander have to research, either on the Hive, or on the Shift, or POSSIBLY the Egg, the ability to drop each life form as an egg. This would push the mid-game Onos up to 6-8 minutes. Then put a lengthy cooldown on each lifeform scaled based on the lifeform. For instance, one minute for Gorge, two for Lerk, three for Fade, and five for Onos. This means you'll only ever see one Tres Onos every five minutes, giving you time to take it out, and it will give Aliens that little bit of defensive power they need in mid-game.
Alternatively... buff the Fade. Poor thing needs it.
EDIT: Assuming the changes in the balance mod in the Workshop made it in, the slight buffs and nerfs to energy usage on the Fade probably won't cut it, especially since STARTING Blink would be more costly.
Also, yes, I've thought the situation through before I posted this. Yes, a smart Onos playing defensively will easily keep that Onos for five minutes without a very coordinated, aggressive team of Marines.