Balance
ZIsef
Join Date: 2012-11-27 Member: 173456Members
Join Date: 2012-11-27 Member: 173456Members
I play in a more talented server, the biggest problem I see is Marines win maybe one out of 15 games I play, and most of them are either at the end when the server dies. I have not experienced many "Come Back" games for marines. Aliens all the time we experience them either power node rush or clutch phase gate drop. If we keep the game balanced for the "Competitive Play" the game will never survive for joe and his friend to play. Every one will always want to play Alien in pubs to be the pub stomper. The competitive play is not even a large crowd compared to other games. You have a very high skill ceiling on the alien side so you can become very deadly just by your self, with marines you have to wrangle every one together which is a feat in it self. That is one of the reasons every one loves aliens, and most of the aliens that have to switch over still play like they are aliens running off alone. Just my rants this game has alot of potential but this thought of balancing just for the top end will wreck where the majority of the players are. The server admin and every one I talk to agree. You have to play perfect, and once a mistake happens it snowballs fast.
Comments
I wouldn't say the game is "balanced" for competitive play. It's not really remarkably balanced for anything right now. It's just newly released and it needs some time to adapt to all the different ways people play with it. The metagame has shifted a couple times already, and it will have many many more shifts in the future. Even if we look at Star Craft 2 there were many huge balance changes that were made as much as 2 years after release, and people still have many issues with the balance of the game.
You don't have to have the game unbalanced in non-competitive play just to have the game balanced for competitive play. There's lots of ways you can shift balance for one without harming the other too heavily.
If anything, NS2 is worse than NS1 is for this.
You don't have to have the game unbalanced in non-competitive play just to have the game balanced for competitive play. There's lots of ways you can shift balance for one without harming the other too heavily.
If anything, NS2 is worse than NS1 is for this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem OP talks about is inherent to multiplayer games with a skill curve. Some skill curves are linear, while some are skewed, and some change. Lerk is an example of something about NS2 that is very skewed, while commander is more linear. Game design elements that allow for competitive play are inherently different than they would be for normal level play. It's just a fact of game design, and there's nothing wrong with it; competitive gaming most often utilizes some sort of format, be it a config file or a team size that NS2 utilizes, it will always be there for one reason or another.
What balance changes do you think are causing marines in your pubs to lose that can also be attributed to competitive player's balance wishes?
Unfortunately I experience similar numbers in pub games as marine. It requires absolutely everything to fall into place correctly. One mistake or squad wipe in the first 5 minutes and the end result is already determined. An alien dying by himself herp derping up a corridor however, has no impact on the game at all.
Unfortunately I experience similar numbers in pub games as marine. It requires absolutely everything to fall into place correctly. One mistake or squad wipe in the first 5 minutes and the end result is already determined. An alien dying by himself herp derping up a corridor however, has no impact on the game at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Competitive play leans towards marines at high levels of play. Aliens have to utilize mobility more, and be overall much more coordinated. They also tend to have less players than normal games, so there is less personal resource generation.
Marines can win, and win easily, <i>IF</i> they don’t make a single “mistake†right from the get go.
What I mean is that on your average pub server, marines can only win if everyone is on the ball from second one. Commander needs to be in that seat instantly, he needs to know what is up and have a plan in order right away. Marines need to sprint in groups to the <i>MUST HAVE</i> areas right away.
This is a herculean task to arrange on a pub server. <i>Literally like herding cats</i>.
Meanwhile Aliens, and this is by the design of their play style, have a metric ton more leeway.
They can scout around alone, screw around a little bit individually, even go afk a bit without much of a penalty to their overall game.
I’m not sure yet but I think this is a pretty big issue and I have no idea how to go about fixing it because it would require changing…well I’m not sure but I bet some fundamental aspects of the game.
Edit: I think this is why we see Marines have a slight skew at the competitive level, those guys are the mythical 100% on the ball marine teams that can dominate.
However this is not the case for the vast majority of the servers or people playing...this needs to be kept in mind...
There is plenty of good teamwork in comp-games.
There is less teamwork in pub games.
How will you balance this?
I think upping the relative power of the super high skill ceiling movement mechanics could do the game some good. Things like increasing fade non-glancing blow damage, or making the max speed of wall jumping consistantly higher.
That's how RTS games are a lot of the time. One larger mistake and the game just ended.
But yes, mistakes on marine side are extremely punishing, so it's much more difficult to play them on pubs. One power node down, or one phase gate down could mean the game, and often does - and they go down extremely fast.
Then again, there are things such as ninja phase gates, or arcs, which not many people use on pubs, which are almost equally as powerful. Aliens do seem to need a lot less "warning" though, whereas with marines sometimes the power node or the PG is down in <10 seconds.
I think upping the relative power of the super high skill ceiling movement mechanics could do the game some good. Things like increasing fade non-glancing blow damage, or making the max speed of wall jumping consistantly higher.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Those matches were fairly representative, actually. The results were typical of most Arc vs. Exe matches at the time. Playing on LAN might have made it a little easier to hit shots; but the difference between the ping most of us usually play with in online matches (15-50) and on LAN (0-5) wasn't very noticeable, especially since most of us played with lower fps than we do at home.
Two important things to note about those matches, though:
1. They were played before the massive "hitreg" problems introduced with patch 230 and significant alien buffs (skulk movement, crags).
2. They were played between, at the time, the two best marine teams in Europe, probably the world.
<!--quoteo(post=2039699:date=Dec 4 2012, 09:18 AM:name=_Necro_)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (_Necro_ @ Dec 4 2012, 09:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2039699"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines need more teamwork than aliens to win a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That marines need more teamwork than aliens is a common misconception, that has somehow persisted from NS1 and into NS2. The reality is actually the opposite.
The alien bias currently seen on publics is probably just a result of (1) "hitreg" problems and (2) how trivial alien commanding is compared to marine commanding.
I think some game design tweaks should be made to help encourage average marine players to be more aggressive and stay out on the map more. I've said it before, but I think the armory is one of the culprits for this player behavior problem - marines become addicted to having full armor, and will always run back to base to heal up after getting hurt in a fight. This effectively tethers them to their phase gates, as well as breaking up their squad, and they rarely make much outward progress. I would rather see armor healing removed and instead turn the welder into a permanent upgrade for all marines, to encourage them to stick together and heal up on the field with the help of medpacks.
not 11v11 or 12v12
Flayra is always working on balance with spreadsheets, stats and player feedback ect.
My thoughts on balance
I feel like mines cost too much lower the cost to 10... 3 mines for 15pres that almost never kill a skulk on one hit?
Shotguns maybe should be 15 pres so the threat of shotguns rushs could force more aliens to evolve to mid game lifeforms
Mac EMP needs a major change and suggestions are <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125432" target="_blank">Here</a>
Fades could use a buff so we have less of a tech explosion of onos
In these large games Tech explosions are an issue simply because there are so many players. If 3-4 go gorge or lerk ect there are still 7+ other players waiting to go onos
As far as hit reg goes
It is rarely an issue for me maybe its due to my high FPS I am not sure
If it does happen its almost always when I use a shotgun
Sometimes I do point blank hit skulks with a shotgun and it does nothing
I assume its server lag and lag compensation
As a player who does quite a bit of alien comm. Educate yourself before you speak please.
The alien bias currently seen on publics is probably just a result of (1) "hitreg" problems and (2) how trivial alien commanding is compared to marine commanding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How biased do you see the game for marines vs aliens at the highest level right now? Once again, NS2Stats says something about competitive play... but "competitive play" is a big umbrella.
Personally I think it's VERY biased towards aliens for a few reasons, maybe not in competitive as others have stated but certainly in pubs. It's odd, because alien life forms have traditionally been harder to learn to use effectively. But, as a very experienced alien commander who wins 90% of the games I command here's my thoughts.
I've commanded much more alien rounds, so my view is probably a bit skewed so take it with a grain of salt. I've commanded only about 15 marine games. I waited until I was proficient on the alien side and as a marine before trying my hand at commanding marine, which means I'd already learned all the upgrades, how to get them, and the likely order you want them in. <b>And out of those 15 games I've won just one</b> (and it was on Veil of all maps without holding Nano Grid!) <b>Out of my first 15 games commanding as alien before I even understood all the upgrades, I won 14.</b> That really says a lot.
With marines, I always feel resource starved from 30 seconds into the game until we're eliminated. As soon as my team leaves a res point, a skulk is already tearing it down. As alien, the res points seem to stay up 200% longer without being bothered because marines are so much slower to expand.
Jetpacks would be the counter to this, allowing marines to get around the map faster. Unfortunately jetpacks are excessively expensive from a commander point of view, but cheap for players once researched. A lot of pub players don't know how to use them effectively, so that diminishes their use even more. This is why a lot of commanders will rush exo's. Honestly a few good jetpacks can break and frustrate an alien team more than a single exo, but the commander has to pull the team together and convince them to try it. Most pubbers just want to save their 75 res for duals.
Top it off with several map designs putting res closer to aliens than marines. I'm thinking of Docking, with the awesome window that lets lerks kill main base power and a 10 mile hike to the first res node. I'm thinking of Veil (love that map though) where the marines have to hike 10 miles to their first res, but the aliens are almost instantly in nano grid from 2 of the 3 start locations. Not to mention the exploit that lets gorges get out of the map and bile bomb Control without fear of getting shot. And who can forget Lava Falls where not only is a double res 30% closer to the alien hive, but it's got a nice protective wall that keeps out the marine gunfire. I can have both res nodes dropped and protected before the marines even make it into the room. The only marine win I've ever seen on that map was when the marines ninja'd up to the top far corner of the map and took that hive location before dropping a single upgrade.
So my personal feeling on the pub situation? Maps that aren't tilted so far towards the aliens getting and holding early res.
My own experience has aliens winning 90% of the games I play - with me commanding alien most of those. Looking at ns2stats.org, it looks like aliens are winning 58% of the time on modded servers running the stats plugin. I almost never play on modded servers, so my own stats don't reflect that on their site.
Regarding the hit reg problem people talk about - yeah it definitely changed last patch, but I found that turning ON mouse acceleration in game and cranking it all the way up really improved my aiming ability. I don't fear skulk rushes as much as I used to as marine. I know traditional wisdom says don't use mouse accel, but in this case it really worked for me.
- IT()E CyberMage
I'm wondering how wide the disconnect is between top level competitive play and the trends that are widely established in public play.
Infestation is implied obviously, guess some people need it spelled out in front of them. Point being the alien comm doesn't have to rely on pub players to setup decent res control around the map.
Granted it's easier, but it's far from instant or care free.
Cant seem to find in NS2stats.org the tab or screen where the Alien / Marine wins % is displayed. Can you please link?
I'm not sure -- my gut feeling is that it's pretty balanced right now. The "hitreg" (I use quotation marks because I don't know that it necessarily has anything to do with hitreg) problems have made a huge impact. It basically means one or two good marines can't lock down areas in the early game anymore. We have been able to adjust to it, though, more or less. I can't remember losing any marine rounds in practice, except for a baserush a few weeks back, but I do remember losing a couple of alien rounds, so I guess it might still slightly favor marines at higher levels.
Although the disconnect between public play and higher level comp play is significant, top level play isn't really pushing the envelope yet. At lower levels of comp play, the disconnect with public play is much smaller. They generally make many of the same mistakes public commanders do and player skill is not that much higher.
This is the exact problem the developers need to <i>somehow </i>address. Personally, I think the problem isn't with the Marine mechanics but rather with the Aliens - as was already pointed out, they're simply given way too much leeway and can get away with way too much without it having a significant negative impact on their team's performance. Aliens simply should require more skill to play in the early game.
Beyond that, I'm a firm advocate towards the removal of bunny hopping from games, NS2 being no exception. Aliens - Skulks - should of course be able to jump - including some wall-hopping, to maintain their ability to move quickly around on the map - but I'd greatly prefer to see the ability to <i>constantly - incessantly</i> jump removed from the game. Marines shouldn't be able to jump while carrying out any other action, at all - no hopping around firing a damn rifle, not even reloading it. You can argue that this simplifies or <i>noobifies </i>the game but I strongly believe that it rather deepens the tactical and strategical aspects of the game by removing or lessening the 'randomness' aspect of combat by getting rid of the idiotic 'we jump around like maniacs and frantically try to bite/shoot each other to death' gameplay. This change, too, would not only be healthy for the game, it would also greatly even the playing field in favor of Marines on pubs in the early minutes of the game while, I believe, keeping the high-level play balance much the same.
Alien commanders work more like a sovereign, where the king/emperor/khammander decides what will happen and people must simply work around it. Sure, both must work together but functionally they use a more efficient system for a weaker teamwork environment (i.e. pub servers).
Marine teams in pub games are at a disadvantage. The power of Marines comes out with teamwork, where there is less of it they will be a weaker side all other things being equal.
See, Aliens in NS1 had a more nodal structure. Different players could pay 10 res for the authority to make strategic decisions i.e. by becoming a Gorge. Multiple equal nodes made up the governmental structure for the team, deciding which res tower/tech structure/hive would be taken and when. Temp gorging was a sign of player culture coping with the nodal structure, each player taking government upon himself for a time and then releasing it for another necessary task.
In essence Gorge's were governors for the Alien team but none of them had any greater power/authority than the other. The hierarchy was social, not mechanical.
To fix most of these problems is to adopt a more flexible governmental structure. Having players drop buildings as well as the commander would resolve a vast majority of the problems with the current game. Teams could seamlessly adopt the model that works for them, with the opportunities and problems that it invites, on a per situation basis.
The only issue is that older Western people and those who adopt their cultural values associate being apart of a machine with working as a team. The idea of multiple people having to work together with no clear way of deciding who has the ultimate say is stressful for many non-gen Y people in our culture. Look at the fear people have about group work in universities and schools. Look at the prevalence of age as a decider amongst the asian cultures, especially in Korea, creating arbitrary but simple order in every situation.
The reality is the player culture is as much an issue for the machine nature of NS2's command structure as anything else. Having only one kind of governmental structure will always alienate a portion of the player base that does not agree with that model of co-ordination.