I wonder where are the " learn to play a game" guys now. They stated "the balance is good" before the alian nerf. After the nerf there is still 60-40 win ratio in public and in competitive too.
<!--quoteo(post=2041657:date=Dec 7 2012, 02:38 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 7 2012, 02:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not in favour of cyst cost, but I do like a cooldown idea. However, to make it less tedious, why not assign an 'energy' cost to cysts, which means a khamm can drop X number in a given period, but once they use all their cyst 'energy' then they need to wait for the energy to regenerate. It fits the model for Kharaa perfectly since this is how all of the alien weapon abilities work. They all require energy, and you can use the weapon for X number of times before you run out and need to wait for regen. You can still use the weapon, but at a markedly reduced rate of fire.
What could also happen is that the regen rate for cyst dropping could increase based on number of hives. That would allow a khamm the ability to respond to the later game attacks, which slightly reducing the early game cyst spam.
If this was adopted there could also be an optional 2 res cost for cysts if a khamm needs to drop them in an 'emergency' and he has no energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would prefer an energy system for cysts. At least it makes both sides equal when it comes to power nodes/cysting costs. That is - nothing.
Give alien commander some other, valid, res sink. Only time he has res problems is when marines are hitting the upgrades. Currently the alien commander tech's out way to easily and has nothing to spend his res on except cyst spam (zzz), whip spam (annoying for marines since no cap) or egg spam (lame since no onos egg at 2nd hive). If aliens are stuck at 2 hives for long, the alien commander ends up with whip forests and the entire map covered in his structures.
<!--quoteo(post=2041583:date=Dec 7 2012, 12:50 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Dec 7 2012, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041583"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't process that logic at all. Comp and Pub games work with very different player motivations and experiences, people are overestimating how much they depend on each other. Or to make an example what i'm talking about:
Are there games out there that only consist of a competitive playerbase but not a casual one? I know as a matter of fact, there are tons of games out there that work on a casual basis without having any competitive aspect or playerbase at all.
A game can survive without a competitive community, but it can't survive without any community at all. The remaining big question: Are NS2 problems funded in it's competitive gameplay balance or it's casual public gameplay balance?
Imho it's the latter that's lacking and not the former. Because without people playing the game on a casual basis you won't have a playerbase from which you can recruit people for the competitive side of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are only weak and bad games that survive without a competitive community. ESPECIALLY in the team based shooter universe. A competitive community contributes SOOO SOOOOOOOOO much to a game like natural selection.
I conceed it's not strictly necessary, but you might as well just knock 20 points off the review scores of your team based shooter if it isn't workable in the competitive scene. Plus, for the MASSIVE contributions competitive players made to NS on the playtest team, helping map creators, more or less running NS Radio, and just logging the majority of hours played in that game... I'm not saying Flayra HAS to, but it would be a REALLY areshole move to chuck competitive play aside right now. Especially after taking strides to support it in NS2 already.
Finally, in many cases making a chance that helps one level of play and hurts another is just REALLY lazy balance anyways. It's almost always possible to do well by both. Especially disregarding competitive play is unwise... Because competitive players are usually ones that figure out the bugs and balance issues in your game. If they can figure out a way to exploit something, 95% of the time it's possible to do in pubs as well, it just takes some time for those ideas to trickle down. If a particular balance change doesn't work at the competitive level, it might work at the pub level for a couple months, but it will soon break public play as well.
<!--quoteo(post=2041665:date=Dec 7 2012, 03:47 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Dec 7 2012, 03:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's plenty of games that do exactly what you're saying, but to address your concerns and to follow in your logic I have this to say:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which ones. I'm not aware of any popular games that balance "Exclusively" on competitive play. League of Legends, Star Craft 2, and Street Fighter DEFINITELY do not do that. CoD and Battle Field basically said "###### you competitive players". It's possible that Warsow or the latest incarnations of Quake are taking that approach, but it's obviously not working out well for them.
I think, occasionally, if you've got a heavy hot button issue, and you've explored hundreds of options, it's better to pick a solution that harms public play a small amount to make competitive play significantly better than it is to pick a solution that harms competitive play a small amount to make public play significantly better... however, it's absolutely unacceptable to just balance at one metric and pretend the other doesn't exist.
<!--quoteo(post=2041689:date=Dec 7 2012, 09:21 PM:name=TimMc)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TimMc @ Dec 7 2012, 09:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041689"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would prefer an energy system for cysts. At least it makes both sides equal when it comes to power nodes/cysting costs. That is - nothing.
Give alien commander some other, valid, res sink. Only time he has res problems is when marines are hitting the upgrades. Currently the alien commander tech's out way to easily and has nothing to spend his res on except cyst spam (zzz), whip spam (annoying for marines since no cap) or egg spam (lame since no onos egg at 2nd hive). If aliens are stuck at 2 hives for long, the alien commander ends up with whip forests and the entire map covered in his structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why alien commander should be removed and reverted to the gorges role...
In my opinion, the main problem is that the alien commander can spread extractors, shifts, crags, etc without needing a single alien near it.
In my games, I see that in maps with a room with two extraction points is favoring aliens. Because the entire team go there to secure the two extractors. Some marines go there because it looks like a vital point for winning the game while the rest need to go in other rooms to build stuff. One single skulk can leave the double-room and inflict damage to marine structures and hide in the vents, meaning some marines will go back to defend. If the battle in the double-room gets intense, the alien commander just spread elsewhere securing some extractors for free.
Also, Onos can go in and out of a room quite easily alone, Exos not so much because of it's speed.
In my view, the alien team is much more teamplay-less. That's why the winning rate of aliens is higher in pub games.
My suggestions: Add some choices of free evolution to marines: chosing between damage or speed, for example. Instead of the fixed armor/weapon upgrades. Aliens can choose different enhancements based on the lifeform and playstyle. Marines with welders may choose different from marines with grenade launchers. Add more structural protection for marines. Aliens can spam whips, marines are limited in sentries per room. Enforce aliens to have more teamplay, remove some of the commanders independence. Marines can't build anything without teamplayers, aliens can spam any structure anywhere. Aliens can infect marines to see them thru walls without commander help. Give something like this to marines, maybe a pocket observatory that can be bought and lasts for some seconds after droped in the floor.
<!--quoteo(post=2041698:date=Dec 7 2012, 04:45 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Dec 7 2012, 04:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why alien commander should be removed and reverted to the gorges role...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Cars have caused so much global warming. It's best if we just go back to horses.
<!--quoteo(post=2041725:date=Dec 7 2012, 04:27 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 7 2012, 04:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cars have caused so much global warming. It's best if we just go back to horses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah I think the alien commander can be perfectly valid, but it needs far more depth put into it. Currently its only half-baked, with too much emphasis on structures but not enough emphasis as that marines have a variety of things to attack early game.
Hive rooms are pretty empty until the alien commander techs out, then a whip forest appears. This needs to be addressed. Compare that to a marine base which always will have several important structures going on at any point in the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2041725:date=Dec 7 2012, 10:27 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 7 2012, 10:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041725"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cars have caused so much global warming. It's best if we just go back to horses.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cars provide something useful, alien commander doesn't.
<!--quoteo(post=2041744:date=Dec 7 2012, 06:19 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Dec 7 2012, 06:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041744"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Cars provide something useful, alien commander doesn't.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It frees up alien pres, simplifies player roles, unlocks many hive and chamber timings that didn't previously exist, allows for many many more push timings that weren't possible before, opens up the possibility of the cyst network mechanic which has a lot of potential (although I agree isn't up to snuff yet), and unhinges a major source of balance asymetry that severely damaged NS1 when it came to large player counts in servers.
<!--quoteo(post=2041772:date=Dec 7 2012, 04:58 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 7 2012, 04:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041772"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It frees up alien pres, simplifies player roles, unlocks many hive and chamber timings that didn't previously exist, allows for many many more push timings that weren't possible before, opens up the possibility of the cyst network mechanic which has a lot of potential (although I agree isn't up to snuff yet), and unhinges a major source of balance asymetry that severely damaged NS1 when it came to large player counts in servers.
It provides a lot of useful things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's nothing useful about something the alien team could do with just a vote mod for which upgrade the aliens want since usually the commander gets the team what they ask for rather than dictating it. The only real role an alien commander fulfills is that of a team leader, whereas the marine commander has a distinct role that requires much more thought.
<!--quoteo(post=2041780:date=Dec 7 2012, 07:11 PM:name=Champlo0)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Champlo0 @ Dec 7 2012, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There's nothing useful about something the alien team could do with just a vote mod for which upgrade the aliens want since usually the commander gets the team what they ask for rather than dictating it. The only real role an alien commander fulfills is that of a team leader, whereas the marine commander has a distinct role that requires much more thought.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This literally addresses nothing I said at all. I didn't even mention chamber choice.
We probably don't need more games ending in cyst lock especially when we still have egg lock
Also it creates too many issues from a balance standpoint on map creation <i>(just check out how expensive it would be to drop Gap on Mineshaft with your new mods)</i>
You also don't need to do anything special to test this on your own. . . Just command a game where everytime you drop a cyst you tell yourself that you can't go below the new minimum res count
Don't know if alien expansion rate is the main problem, but I can see your point.
If you really want to slow down alien expansion rate, why not decrease the growth rates of structures instead of upping cyst costs. You could make it so that you'd need at least one gorge to be able to expand at a decent rate. It would slow down alien progress in general, and make the gorge a more important player for the alien economy.
Just a thought. Although I'm not sure nerfing the alien economy like that would do well in the competitive scene? Perhaps in combination with a fade buff? :)
I kinda skimmed the last half of this, but... everyone knows that cysts already do have a cooldown, right? It's 1 second. That's not a whole lot, obviously, but it's still noticeable, especially if you played before there was a cooldown.
From <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125442" target="_blank">this post</a> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I recently thought about a simple addition to the whole cysts vs powernode system in order to make it less bland. Nowadays, the delay on building cysts does not really pose any limitations on commanders rendering the interesting idea of cutting off cyst chains almost invalid - they are too easy to repair. My Idea: The number of working powernodes determines the radius in which cysts spawn infestation. In return, tie building cysts to hives and give them a longer delay (maybe 20 s). They could also become more expensive, since they become more powerful. So at 3 hives, one could build 3 cysts at the same time. At the beginning of the round, the radius would be very high, possibly letting the khammander drop a cyst near the next res nozzle. However this cyst may lose its connection when the marines start building some powernodes.
Effects: -The task of placing cysts would become less dull. The khamander has to consider if he wants to be safe and place them with minimal distance or he wants to expand aggresivly. -In marine turtling situations, when the aliens own the whole map except for marine start, the cyst radius would increase to the point that infestation would spread inside marine start from cysts they cannot shoot from inside their base. This would finish these stalements in an epic way: The infestation slowly creeps towards the base. Then the khamander uses his abilities directly in marine start e.g. bonewall to finish the game. The marines would also become unable to build armory walls since there is infestation in their base. -Severing cyst chains becomes less of a "Lets hope the khammander doesnt notice" and more of a "I am harrassing the supplylines and doing damage" thing. Although this becomes only possible if enough powernodes are running. So rambo marines killing cysts wont be much help if the aliens are dominating the map. -Gives the marines an asymmetrical counterpart to rt/powernode harrass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2041698:date=Dec 7 2012, 02:45 PM:name=RobustPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RobustPenguin @ Dec 7 2012, 02:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why alien commander should be removed and reverted to the gorges role...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly agree that a Gorge should be more important for building rts and stuff. Right now a gorge is nice to have but other than for hives it does not make taht much of an difference, especially when you take into account the travel time. When I gorge and build rts at the starts, by the time I arrive at the next one it already is at like 50% or 60% so the team might get 2 or so more ticks because of me building the rt.... dont know if it's worth it as at the same time I cant kill marine rts as skulk...
Ok, guys, I came up with a <b>solution</b> for marine incoordination.
Copy squad system from Nuclea Dawn. 3-4 people per squad. Marines should choose a squad before spawning. Squad members see it's leader on the map and through walls. Orders are given to squads, not individual players.
<!--quoteo(post=2042920:date=Dec 10 2012, 09:39 AM:name=BigTracer)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigTracer @ Dec 10 2012, 09:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042920"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Ok, guys, I came up with a <b>solution</b> for marine incoordination.
Copy squad system from Nuclea Dawn. 3-4 people per squad. Marines should choose a squad before spawning. Squad members see it's leader on the map and through walls. Orders are given to squads, not individual players.
<b>Problem solved.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't see how this solves anything. Squad leaders would still have to follow orders from the comm, and squad members would still have to follow their leader. If we're assuming the problem is that most marines don't listen to their orders, implementing a squad system won't help much. The gameplay also demands alot of flexibility from the teams and is too fast-paced for a rigid squad structure to work efficiently imo.
<!--quoteo(post=2042926:date=Dec 10 2012, 03:56 PM:name=Neoken)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoken @ Dec 10 2012, 03:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't see how this solves anything. Squad leaders would still have to follow orders from the comm, and squad members would still have to follow their leader. If we're assuming the problem is that most marines don't listen to their orders, implementing a squad system won't help much. The gameplay also demands alot of flexibility from the teams and is too fast-paced for a rigid squad structure to work efficiently imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I explained it not accurately enough. Squad system would fix marines aimlessly running around alone and dying to skulk packs. Squads would make players move in packs and be more efficient against skulks. And, if squad leader is more experienced - this whole unit will make marines stronger, more coordinated and help new players study faster.
Orders are secondary. But it's important for new players to see their squad leader.
<!--quoteo(post=2041956:date=Dec 8 2012, 02:29 PM:name=Azaral)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Azaral @ Dec 8 2012, 02:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This. Alien commander was a bad idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I like the alien commander. I think right now it might be too easy to rapid-expand at the start of the match, but realistically, the alien commander's starting T-Res runs out at 4 harvesters which can usually be reached fairly quickly and in remote locations, but once you start pulling 4 T-res per tick, you can cyst like a retard just to troll marines while still having enough left over for upgrades. If the marines are good, they will find the critical cyst links and break them early which can really screw up a spammy alien, but if they don't, by 3 minutes I can usually have multiple routes on my chains to prevent a lone marine from cutting off more than one room. Most of the time you can safely pull 4 Rt's out of the gate and quickly grab #5 and your first hive upgrade once the last RT finishes building. Add in a helper gorge and it all goes much faster.
The problem is that marines have far too much to do in the early game just building a few RT's and holding off raiding skulks to be chasing cysts around the back side of the map. If the marines can spare a couple of marines to do that work, they are probably good enough to win on their skill alone, and it's just a matter of time regardless of how the alien comm is expanding.
@OP : No, 2 T-res per cyst is too much with the present range/growth design. If, however, you extend the range of the cyst chain while keeping growth rate about the same as it is now, you might have an interesting recipe. Consider how important the cyst becomes in that scenerio... hiding them behind stuff, using strategically located shades to mask cyst branches would matter more... and losing a cyst would have a much more dramatic effect on the health of the alien economy. Spamming them for more robust networks would be an option, but an expensive one.
I'd be interested in seeing that tested out... just double the range and infestation radius of each cyst while upping the cost to 2 and reducing the build time of RT's by about 20% to compensate for the faster network expansion (the last cyst right next tot he RT would ensure that even with slower infestation spread speed, the RT would be ready to drop quickly anyway for a mere 2 res cost bump.)
<!--quoteo(post=2043078:date=Dec 10 2012, 08:36 PM:name=phunktion)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phunktion @ Dec 10 2012, 08:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2043078"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea, but it would better to reduce the range of each cyst so that you wind up needing more of them.
rather than doubling the price, which might overshoot the in favor of marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only problem with requiring more cysts is that there are some areas where you can actually wind up saturating an area in cysts and overload the number of entities allowed... also building a cyst chain through some areas would be impossible if the marines build something near a doorway/chokepoint. Also, flame throwers would be godly.
Put a radius around RT locations that require a different kind of cyst, costing more than a normal cyst?
You can either then sink in more T-Res to get the harvester up quicker, or wait for a normal cyst to spread it's infestation further than normal.
Or just have a 'no-cyst' zone around each RT location, that you can only cross with green creep?
Gives the Alien Commander something more to think about as well, depending on Marine location, etc. And as I see, would balance public games better without being detrimental to an experienced Commander on a competitive side.
Comments
What could also happen is that the regen rate for cyst dropping could increase based on number of hives. That would allow a khamm the ability to respond to the later game attacks, which slightly reducing the early game cyst spam.
If this was adopted there could also be an optional 2 res cost for cysts if a khamm needs to drop them in an 'emergency' and he has no energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would prefer an energy system for cysts. At least it makes both sides equal when it comes to power nodes/cysting costs. That is - nothing.
Give alien commander some other, valid, res sink. Only time he has res problems is when marines are hitting the upgrades. Currently the alien commander tech's out way to easily and has nothing to spend his res on except cyst spam (zzz), whip spam (annoying for marines since no cap) or egg spam (lame since no onos egg at 2nd hive). If aliens are stuck at 2 hives for long, the alien commander ends up with whip forests and the entire map covered in his structures.
Comp and Pub games work with very different player motivations and experiences, people are overestimating how much they depend on each other.
Or to make an example what i'm talking about:
Are there games out there that only consist of a competitive playerbase but not a casual one?
I know as a matter of fact, there are tons of games out there that work on a casual basis without having any competitive aspect or playerbase at all.
A game can survive without a competitive community, but it can't survive without any community at all.
The remaining big question: Are NS2 problems funded in it's competitive gameplay balance or it's casual public gameplay balance?
Imho it's the latter that's lacking and not the former. Because without people playing the game on a casual basis you won't have a playerbase from which you can recruit people for the competitive side of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are only weak and bad games that survive without a competitive community. ESPECIALLY in the team based shooter universe. A competitive community contributes SOOO SOOOOOOOOO much to a game like natural selection.
I conceed it's not strictly necessary, but you might as well just knock 20 points off the review scores of your team based shooter if it isn't workable in the competitive scene. Plus, for the MASSIVE contributions competitive players made to NS on the playtest team, helping map creators, more or less running NS Radio, and just logging the majority of hours played in that game... I'm not saying Flayra HAS to, but it would be a REALLY areshole move to chuck competitive play aside right now. Especially after taking strides to support it in NS2 already.
Finally, in many cases making a chance that helps one level of play and hurts another is just REALLY lazy balance anyways. It's almost always possible to do well by both. Especially disregarding competitive play is unwise... Because competitive players are usually ones that figure out the bugs and balance issues in your game. If they can figure out a way to exploit something, 95% of the time it's possible to do in pubs as well, it just takes some time for those ideas to trickle down. If a particular balance change doesn't work at the competitive level, it might work at the pub level for a couple months, but it will soon break public play as well.
Which ones. I'm not aware of any popular games that balance "Exclusively" on competitive play. League of Legends, Star Craft 2, and Street Fighter DEFINITELY do not do that. CoD and Battle Field basically said "###### you competitive players". It's possible that Warsow or the latest incarnations of Quake are taking that approach, but it's obviously not working out well for them.
I think, occasionally, if you've got a heavy hot button issue, and you've explored hundreds of options, it's better to pick a solution that harms public play a small amount to make competitive play significantly better than it is to pick a solution that harms competitive play a small amount to make public play significantly better... however, it's absolutely unacceptable to just balance at one metric and pretend the other doesn't exist.
Give alien commander some other, valid, res sink. Only time he has res problems is when marines are hitting the upgrades. Currently the alien commander tech's out way to easily and has nothing to spend his res on except cyst spam (zzz), whip spam (annoying for marines since no cap) or egg spam (lame since no onos egg at 2nd hive). If aliens are stuck at 2 hives for long, the alien commander ends up with whip forests and the entire map covered in his structures.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why alien commander should be removed and reverted to the gorges role...
In my games, I see that in maps with a room with two extraction points is favoring aliens.
Because the entire team go there to secure the two extractors.
Some marines go there because it looks like a vital point for winning the game while the rest need to go in other rooms to build stuff.
One single skulk can leave the double-room and inflict damage to marine structures and hide in the vents, meaning some marines will go back to defend.
If the battle in the double-room gets intense, the alien commander just spread elsewhere securing some extractors for free.
Also, Onos can go in and out of a room quite easily alone, Exos not so much because of it's speed.
In my view, the alien team is much more teamplay-less. That's why the winning rate of aliens is higher in pub games.
My suggestions:
Add some choices of free evolution to marines: chosing between damage or speed, for example. Instead of the fixed armor/weapon upgrades. Aliens can choose different enhancements based on the lifeform and playstyle. Marines with welders may choose different from marines with grenade launchers.
Add more structural protection for marines. Aliens can spam whips, marines are limited in sentries per room.
Enforce aliens to have more teamplay, remove some of the commanders independence. Marines can't build anything without teamplayers, aliens can spam any structure anywhere.
Aliens can infect marines to see them thru walls without commander help. Give something like this to marines, maybe a pocket observatory that can be bought and lasts for some seconds after droped in the floor.
Cars have caused so much global warming. It's best if we just go back to horses.
Yeah I think the alien commander can be perfectly valid, but it needs far more depth put into it. Currently its only half-baked, with too much emphasis on structures but not enough emphasis as that marines have a variety of things to attack early game.
Hive rooms are pretty empty until the alien commander techs out, then a whip forest appears. This needs to be addressed. Compare that to a marine base which always will have several important structures going on at any point in the game.
Cars provide something useful, alien commander doesn't.
It frees up alien pres, simplifies player roles, unlocks many hive and chamber timings that didn't previously exist, allows for many many more push timings that weren't possible before, opens up the possibility of the cyst network mechanic which has a lot of potential (although I agree isn't up to snuff yet), and unhinges a major source of balance asymetry that severely damaged NS1 when it came to large player counts in servers.
It provides a lot of useful things.
It provides a lot of useful things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's nothing useful about something the alien team could do with just a vote mod for which upgrade the aliens want since usually the commander gets the team what they ask for rather than dictating it. The only real role an alien commander fulfills is that of a team leader, whereas the marine commander has a distinct role that requires much more thought.
This literally addresses nothing I said at all. I didn't even mention chamber choice.
We probably don't need more games ending in cyst lock especially when we still have egg lock
Also it creates too many issues from a balance standpoint on map creation
<i>(just check out how expensive it would be to drop Gap on Mineshaft with your new mods)</i>
You also don't need to do anything special to test this on your own. . .
Just command a game where everytime you drop a cyst you tell yourself that you can't go below the new minimum res count
-
If you really want to slow down alien expansion rate, why not decrease the growth rates of structures instead of upping cyst costs. You could make it so that you'd need at least one gorge to be able to expand at a decent rate. It would slow down alien progress in general, and make the gorge a more important player for the alien economy.
Just a thought. Although I'm not sure nerfing the alien economy like that would do well in the competitive scene? Perhaps in combination with a fade buff? :)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I recently thought about a simple addition to the whole cysts vs powernode system in order to make it less bland. Nowadays, the delay on building cysts does not really pose any limitations on commanders rendering the interesting idea of cutting off cyst chains almost invalid - they are too easy to repair.
My Idea:
The number of working powernodes determines the radius in which cysts spawn infestation. In return, tie building cysts to hives and give them a longer delay (maybe 20 s). They could also become more expensive, since they become more powerful. So at 3 hives, one could build 3 cysts at the same time. At the beginning of the round, the radius would be very high, possibly letting the khammander drop a cyst near the next res nozzle. However this cyst may lose its connection when the marines start building some powernodes.
Effects:
-The task of placing cysts would become less dull. The khamander has to consider if he wants to be safe and place them with minimal distance or he wants to expand aggresivly.
-In marine turtling situations, when the aliens own the whole map except for marine start, the cyst radius would increase to the point that infestation would spread inside marine start from cysts they cannot shoot from inside their base. This would finish these stalements in an epic way: The infestation slowly creeps towards the base. Then the khamander uses his abilities directly in marine start e.g. bonewall to finish the game. The marines would also become unable to build armory walls since there is infestation in their base.
-Severing cyst chains becomes less of a "Lets hope the khammander doesnt notice" and more of a "I am harrassing the supplylines and doing damage" thing. Although this becomes only possible if enough powernodes are running. So rambo marines killing cysts wont be much help if the aliens are dominating the map.
-Gives the marines an asymmetrical counterpart to rt/powernode harrass.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. Alien commander was a bad idea.
marines and aliens can choose what upgrades they want via the B menu
in fact lets remove res nodes and bring back RFK
actually RFK will end up with too much res, maybe we should just turn it into XP per kill instead
on veil it would be insanly expensive to reach any harvester
marines only spend 10 res every time.
I strongly agree that a Gorge should be more important for building rts and stuff. Right now a gorge is nice to have but other than for hives it does not make taht much of an difference, especially when you take into account the travel time. When I gorge and build rts at the starts, by the time I arrive at the next one it already is at like 50% or 60% so the team might get 2 or so more ticks because of me building the rt.... dont know if it's worth it as at the same time I cant kill marine rts as skulk...
Copy squad system from Nuclea Dawn. 3-4 people per squad. Marines should choose a squad before spawning.
Squad members see it's leader on the map and through walls. Orders are given to squads, not individual players.
<b>Problem solved.</b>
Copy squad system from Nuclea Dawn. 3-4 people per squad. Marines should choose a squad before spawning.
Squad members see it's leader on the map and through walls. Orders are given to squads, not individual players.
<b>Problem solved.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't see how this solves anything. Squad leaders would still have to follow orders from the comm, and squad members would still have to follow their leader. If we're assuming the problem is that most marines don't listen to their orders, implementing a squad system won't help much. The gameplay also demands alot of flexibility from the teams and is too fast-paced for a rigid squad structure to work efficiently imo.
I explained it not accurately enough. Squad system would fix marines aimlessly running around alone and dying to skulk packs.
Squads would make players move in packs and be more efficient against skulks. And, if squad leader is more experienced - this whole unit will make marines stronger, more coordinated and help new players study faster.
Orders are secondary. But it's important for new players to see their squad leader.
I like the alien commander. I think right now it might be too easy to rapid-expand at the start of the match, but realistically, the alien commander's starting T-Res runs out at 4 harvesters which can usually be reached fairly quickly and in remote locations, but once you start pulling 4 T-res per tick, you can cyst like a retard just to troll marines while still having enough left over for upgrades. If the marines are good, they will find the critical cyst links and break them early which can really screw up a spammy alien, but if they don't, by 3 minutes I can usually have multiple routes on my chains to prevent a lone marine from cutting off more than one room. Most of the time you can safely pull 4 Rt's out of the gate and quickly grab #5 and your first hive upgrade once the last RT finishes building. Add in a helper gorge and it all goes much faster.
The problem is that marines have far too much to do in the early game just building a few RT's and holding off raiding skulks to be chasing cysts around the back side of the map. If the marines can spare a couple of marines to do that work, they are probably good enough to win on their skill alone, and it's just a matter of time regardless of how the alien comm is expanding.
@OP : No, 2 T-res per cyst is too much with the present range/growth design. If, however, you extend the range of the cyst chain while keeping growth rate about the same as it is now, you might have an interesting recipe. Consider how important the cyst becomes in that scenerio... hiding them behind stuff, using strategically located shades to mask cyst branches would matter more... and losing a cyst would have a much more dramatic effect on the health of the alien economy. Spamming them for more robust networks would be an option, but an expensive one.
I'd be interested in seeing that tested out... just double the range and infestation radius of each cyst while upping the cost to 2 and reducing the build time of RT's by about 20% to compensate for the faster network expansion (the last cyst right next tot he RT would ensure that even with slower infestation spread speed, the RT would be ready to drop quickly anyway for a mere 2 res cost bump.)
rather than doubling the price, which might overshoot the in favor of marines
rather than doubling the price, which might overshoot the in favor of marines<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The only problem with requiring more cysts is that there are some areas where you can actually wind up saturating an area in cysts and overload the number of entities allowed... also building a cyst chain through some areas would be impossible if the marines build something near a doorway/chokepoint. Also, flame throwers would be godly.
You can either then sink in more T-Res to get the harvester up quicker, or wait for a normal cyst to spread it's infestation further than normal.
Or just have a 'no-cyst' zone around each RT location, that you can only cross with green creep?
Gives the Alien Commander something more to think about as well, depending on Marine location, etc. And as I see, would balance public games better without being detrimental to an experienced Commander on a competitive side.