Why Aliens Need Work
SpaceJew
Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
Join Date: 2012-09-03 Member: 157584Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Illustrated in the build order.</div>This illustrates how boring and uninspired the aliens team has become now. Maybe it's always been this way, but after 180+ hours of play this is my opinion. After each hive is complete, you could also send out your 5 new drifters. Honestly though, on most maps, five drifters is more than enough to cover every possible avenue of Marines approach. When you build those 5 drifters varies, but it doesn't really matter as plenty of games are won without them. They're actually the only bit of 'strategy' left, honestly. Step 6 is 90% of the aliens choice, and it isn't much of one at that.
There are variations, but incredibly minor ones and most variations depend on the Marines skill level. Beginner Marines offer no chance at a Marines win, Intermediate Marines offer a possible good game, expert Marines offer very little chance at a Aliens win. That's about a one-in-three chance of a good game, and we haven't started yet. (And yes, I know that's an oversimplification. Still true though.)
<b>1) Start with One Hive</b>
<b>2) Upgrade First Hive</b>
Three Choices here, possibly most important choice of the game. If Marines show amazing starting skill, shift or crag. If Marines team is getting destroyed, shift or shade. That's really about it.
<b>3) Build and research upgrades</b>
Choose none, one, or both.
<b>4) Build Second Hive</b>
Only two remaining choices here. Only one of them will likely complement the first hive choice, so is somewhat of a no brainer depending on your first hive.
<b>5) Build and research upgrades</b>
Choose none, one, or both. If step 3 skipped, catch up.
<b>6) Research upgraded life form abilities.</b>
No real choice, you'll need them all. Order doesn't particularly matter but <i>can</i> be chosen relative to what you need when they're available. I.E. Bile Bomb for already entrenched Marines, Blink if team has significant resource reserves, Spores if team has moderate resource reserves, leap if your team has virtually no resources. Easy choices though, and make little difference outside of Spores and Bile Bomb with second hive. As you can see, this choice is very easy to make on data that is easily available during the match itself through the 'team' view.
<b>7) Build Third Hive</b>
Only one choice remains.
<b>8) Build and research upgrades</b>
Choose none, one, or both. If step 3 and 5 skipped, catch up.
<b>9) Research upgraded life form abilities.</b>
Stomp and Umbra are all you need, other abilities a waste of resources. You'll get them anyway, since by this point you likely have infinite resources to spend and little else to spend it on.
<b>10) Win or lose game.</b>
Nothing left matters, waste resources on structures that only slow or deter n00b teams. Again, you'll likely have infinte resources at this point so anything you 'build' is really just a delay to keep crappy marines stuck in their base for an equally crappy Aliens team that don't know about power nodes.
This is honest to god not meant as flame bait, although I'm sure it will become such. When you compare this to the Marines, I think it's pretty darn obvious that Aliens are incredibly lackluster overall. There is virtually no strategy that will lock you into a loss, and build priority is virtually non-existent. You could make a salient case of shade first being an exception as a losing strategy, but anything can win versus a crappy team so even that isn't locked in stone as a truism.
I'm sure someone will go on a rant saying how the mid-game brings unexpected changes from the Marines that you need to adapt to, but unless you lost an entire hive or all your upgrades there isn't anything significant enough to change your build order or deviate from the above ten-step process. Even losing an entire hive doesn't really change your strategy, you either retake the hive and have a chance to win, or you don't and you lose.
I'm not saying there is zero strategy, I'm saying there simply isn't enough of it. Out of all these choices, the only possibility to lock yourself into a loss is to build shade first versus an amazingly competent Marines team, and as some will no-doubt argue it isn't so much 'locked in' as it is 'very likely'. If you're playing on the Aliens team, you might as well not be playing a hybrid RTS/FPS game outside of the fact that you need resources to change life form. An individual alien will have very little to do with the RTS portion of the game, whereas the Marines team are integral to it. Maybe that's part of the charm for some people, or most of them, but Aliens command is such a lower magnitude of difficulty it borders on the absurd when you compare it to the Marines.
TL;DR
A computer program could command the Aliens team with the current level of complexity and lose very little in effectiveness. The only thing I'm not confident that it could handle efficiently is structure placement. A mod plug-in that requested a structure be built and allowed players to place them would solve that only concern. Unsurprisingly, that would turn NS2 into something that looked a lot more like NS1. Also unsurprisingly, structures make such a small difference that it doesn't really matter in easily half the games you'll play.
There are variations, but incredibly minor ones and most variations depend on the Marines skill level. Beginner Marines offer no chance at a Marines win, Intermediate Marines offer a possible good game, expert Marines offer very little chance at a Aliens win. That's about a one-in-three chance of a good game, and we haven't started yet. (And yes, I know that's an oversimplification. Still true though.)
<b>1) Start with One Hive</b>
<b>2) Upgrade First Hive</b>
Three Choices here, possibly most important choice of the game. If Marines show amazing starting skill, shift or crag. If Marines team is getting destroyed, shift or shade. That's really about it.
<b>3) Build and research upgrades</b>
Choose none, one, or both.
<b>4) Build Second Hive</b>
Only two remaining choices here. Only one of them will likely complement the first hive choice, so is somewhat of a no brainer depending on your first hive.
<b>5) Build and research upgrades</b>
Choose none, one, or both. If step 3 skipped, catch up.
<b>6) Research upgraded life form abilities.</b>
No real choice, you'll need them all. Order doesn't particularly matter but <i>can</i> be chosen relative to what you need when they're available. I.E. Bile Bomb for already entrenched Marines, Blink if team has significant resource reserves, Spores if team has moderate resource reserves, leap if your team has virtually no resources. Easy choices though, and make little difference outside of Spores and Bile Bomb with second hive. As you can see, this choice is very easy to make on data that is easily available during the match itself through the 'team' view.
<b>7) Build Third Hive</b>
Only one choice remains.
<b>8) Build and research upgrades</b>
Choose none, one, or both. If step 3 and 5 skipped, catch up.
<b>9) Research upgraded life form abilities.</b>
Stomp and Umbra are all you need, other abilities a waste of resources. You'll get them anyway, since by this point you likely have infinite resources to spend and little else to spend it on.
<b>10) Win or lose game.</b>
Nothing left matters, waste resources on structures that only slow or deter n00b teams. Again, you'll likely have infinte resources at this point so anything you 'build' is really just a delay to keep crappy marines stuck in their base for an equally crappy Aliens team that don't know about power nodes.
This is honest to god not meant as flame bait, although I'm sure it will become such. When you compare this to the Marines, I think it's pretty darn obvious that Aliens are incredibly lackluster overall. There is virtually no strategy that will lock you into a loss, and build priority is virtually non-existent. You could make a salient case of shade first being an exception as a losing strategy, but anything can win versus a crappy team so even that isn't locked in stone as a truism.
I'm sure someone will go on a rant saying how the mid-game brings unexpected changes from the Marines that you need to adapt to, but unless you lost an entire hive or all your upgrades there isn't anything significant enough to change your build order or deviate from the above ten-step process. Even losing an entire hive doesn't really change your strategy, you either retake the hive and have a chance to win, or you don't and you lose.
I'm not saying there is zero strategy, I'm saying there simply isn't enough of it. Out of all these choices, the only possibility to lock yourself into a loss is to build shade first versus an amazingly competent Marines team, and as some will no-doubt argue it isn't so much 'locked in' as it is 'very likely'. If you're playing on the Aliens team, you might as well not be playing a hybrid RTS/FPS game outside of the fact that you need resources to change life form. An individual alien will have very little to do with the RTS portion of the game, whereas the Marines team are integral to it. Maybe that's part of the charm for some people, or most of them, but Aliens command is such a lower magnitude of difficulty it borders on the absurd when you compare it to the Marines.
TL;DR
A computer program could command the Aliens team with the current level of complexity and lose very little in effectiveness. The only thing I'm not confident that it could handle efficiently is structure placement. A mod plug-in that requested a structure be built and allowed players to place them would solve that only concern. Unsurprisingly, that would turn NS2 into something that looked a lot more like NS1. Also unsurprisingly, structures make such a small difference that it doesn't really matter in easily half the games you'll play.
Comments
You can immediately drop a 2nd hive which is something marines can't do
You don't need to upgrade a hive
The first team upgrade you might get your team could be Leap if you went fast 2nd hive
If nobody on your team goes Fade theres no reason to get Blink ever, but your post clearly says <b><i>"No real choice, you'll need them all..."</i></b>
When you build a 3rd hive you can choose to save your res to drop Onos eggs and could very well be the better play than getting that 3rd upgrade right away
You don't mention drifters, bonewall, or any of the support structures or their abilities anywhere in your post
You claim that aliens need work?
I don't think you've demonstrated that you know how to play them yet. . .
-
As for being able to drop a second hive immediately, that is true, but marines can build a second CC almost instantly and get an obs there off starting res alone.
I do agree though, the OP shows a lack of understanding but he is right in some aspects that alien commander is incredibly formulaic and really needless. When I command I spend barely any time in the chair, what's the point? You don't <i>do</i> anything, bonewall is minorly useful but not useful enough to sit around in the chair all game long, especially not as useful as an extra player in the fight. Honestly, if I played and did the bare minimum my APM is probably like 10 maybe? I probably have more actions pressing my mic key than i do placing anything, really the alien commander is one of the biggest disappointments in this game and I wish it would be removed, it feels tacked on and badly thought out and there really has never been a good argument put forward for keeping it.
You can immediately drop a 2nd hive which is something marines can't do<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm just gonna stop here and reply to this statement alone; It's false.
Marines can drop a second com chair immediately if they want. The reason they don't because there is absolutely no need to. They can get everything they need for the beginning and mid game off of one com chair. Only requiring a second com chair for jps/exo.
Don't act like it's some kind of punishment that marines are "unable" to rush a second com chair.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know why people care so much about build orders, that's not particularly interesting. The aliens have plenty of build variety as it is<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What game have you been playing?
Two build orders is hardly "variety". The only reason there is two right now because Marines players/Coms are still incompetent meaning shade is actually effective (anything is good against bad players though). Then you have your standard cookie cutter build MS/DC/SC.
Dat variety.
Instantly dropping the second Hive without having a working economy is a risky move that is only really required in competitive matches, when the marines are skilled enough to lock aliens down quickly if they don't keep up with the upgrades.
If nobody goes Fade, you should still get Blink (and all other available respective upgrades) because they might be just waiting for those upgrades to play a lifeform viably instead of wasting all the res beforehand when they are not as effective yet.
And read his post again, he mentioned Drifters right at the beginning. He also mentioned the other structures as money sinks.
It seems more like your are desperately trying to make up counter arguments and then end it with the usual "learn to play" that people here like to throw at each others head when they don't like an opinion and don't want to bother with it any further.
He is right with his point. Marines are always short on resources and the commander has to make a lot of decisions at any time about what to spend them on next in order to get the most benefit his team, while also making sure to keep some in spare for emergency beaconing and medpack drops and fast base expansion at the front. The alien commander can always go by the text-book and doesn't have to make any vital choices about the tech tree at all. It's pretty much fool-proof. His expansion is predictable for himself since it's based on cyst progression, so there are not many unexpected decisions he has to make.
Nor do they need to. There isn't really a reason to drop a second CC immediately as 95% of the Marines tech can be researched without a second CC. Such is not the case with Aliens.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't need to upgrade a hive
The first team upgrade you might get your team could be Leap if you went fast 2nd hive<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It could be. Why would you rush second hive for leap? Such a 'strategy' could certainly increase the chances of an Aliens loss, I give you that. You absolutely must drop a second hive as Aliens, and do so early. My list is not comprehensive, as you can see when I say things like 'Choose none, one, or both. If step 3 skipped, catch up.' I say there is choice on the Aliens team, only that the choices you make might as well be 'if-than-so' arguments in a computer program for all the difference it might make.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If nobody on your team goes Fade theres no reason to get Blink ever, but your post clearly says <b><i>"No real choice, you'll need them all..."</i></b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Conversely no one on your team <i>should</i> go fade without the upgrade that enables a Fade to be effective. A smart player waits for the life form upgrade before upgrading to that life form. Best case Fades should come out either seconds before or seconds after Blink goes up. Are there awesome players that are exceptions to this rule? Of course. A Fade without Blink might as well stay a skulk unless they are truly exceptional players.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->When you build a 3rd hive you can choose to save your res to drop Onos eggs and could very well be the better play than getting that 3rd upgrade right away<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that has a lot more to do with the third hive being better as a 'blank' considering the overall uselessness of third hive abilities as well as late game viability of sensory upgrades, which are traditionally last as they are probably the most situational and the easiest for the Marines team to negate. Judging from your response, I assume you view the third hive as a prerequisite to Onos for the end-push and not useful otherwise. That's valid enough if you find yourself in a rare evenly matched game, but the choice to forego all third hive upgrades to drop a life form egg isn't much of a choice when the third hive upgrades are for suckers when you're up against a Marine team that knows their stuff.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't mention drifters, bonewall, or any of the support structures or their abilities anywhere in your post<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I take this as a blatant indicator that you didn't actually read my post, as drifters were actually specifically mentioned in the very first paragraph of my post.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You claim that aliens need work?
I don't think you've demonstrated that you know how to play them yet. . .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think that you didn't read anything I said, and rather had a visceral reaction to one or more points in my list ordering rather than the list itself. If your winning scenario includes rushing the second hive and pushing out Onos before third-hive upgrade chambers or life form upgrades you actually make the case that skipping the tech tree's entirely is more effective. I'd say that supports my premise personally, but what do I know. I actually read things before I respond.
harvester
drifters
hives
lerks
carapace
regen
adrenaline
celerity
camouflage
silence
shifts
crags
shades
whips
enzyme clouds
bonewall
forward cysts
some are extremely situational, but even when that is factored in, and you start combining all these different things, then you get even more options and quite a bit of branching
obviously it's best to get as many harvesters/hives/upgrades as possible. the tricky part is defending them
everything that helps in 'military' strength makes economic growth slower, and choosing what to spend res on has different impacts at different phases of the game
most of the choices are about risks of things happening and the timing of spending res. they lead to subtle differences, but those can be real meaningful strategic decisions when the teams are right
the problem is that you don't realize any of the strategy unless marines are somewhat better than skulks and both sides are somewhat aggressive, which doesn't happen in 99% of matches. the problem with the game isn't that aliens need work - it's that the team assignment needs work or the game needs to be redesigned so that it still functions when teams are horrible
Two build orders is hardly "variety". The only reason there is two right now because Marines players/Coms are still incompetent meaning shade is actually effective (anything is good against bad players though). Then you have your standard cookie cutter build MS/DC/SC.
Dat variety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, someone that gets it.
<!--quoteo(post=2041749:date=Dec 7 2012, 05:30 PM:name=Xarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Xarius @ Dec 7 2012, 05:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041749"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien strategic gameplay has been in a very poor state ever since they went with the whole khammander approach, I honestly don't think it will get any better unfortunately.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed. I actually really liked the concept of an Alien commander, but with the recent nerfs there isn't any reason to have one. As a matter of fact, automating it would free up another player. I'm not suggesting they <i>do</i> automate the alien commander, just saying that they could and you wouldn't see a significant difference in the way aliens played.
<!--quoteo(post=2041754:date=Dec 7 2012, 05:38 PM:name=biz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biz @ Dec 7 2012, 05:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041754"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->here all the things you can spend res on in the first few minutes:
the problem is that you don't realize any of the strategy unless marines are somewhat better than skulks and both sides are somewhat aggressive, which doesn't happen in 99% of matches. the problem with the game isn't that aliens need work - it's that the team assignment needs work or the game needs to be redesigned so that it still functions when teams are horrible<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I specifically created a list of the things you can do as an alien commander. It's in my signature. Telling me what you can build doesn't negate the reasons why you shouldn't bother at all.
Basically, the entire thought process behind the Alien commander has become an abortion of a concept. Without meaty structures that make meaningful contributions to the gameplay, it might as well go back to NS1 gorge building. It would actually be better at this point, and I don't really like the idea overall beyond it being an improvement over what we have now.
Two build orders is hardly "variety". The only reason there is two right now because Marines players/Coms are still incompetent meaning shade is actually effective (anything is good against bad players though). Then you have your standard cookie cutter build MS/DC/SC.
Dat variety.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not talking about balance. 3 distinct tech paths for the first hive, each with 2 paths for the second hive, is a reasonable amount of variety. NS2 doesn't need a million branching tech paths, the marine team doesn't have that many tech options either. The real difference is the number of active ways that the marine comm engages in the game, compared to the alien comm who pretty much is just responsible for researching that tech and any structures he can drop are just bonuses. If the alien comm was doing more active things in the field, then that would inherently create a lot more variety in the game.
harvester
drifters
hives
lerks
carapace
regen
adrenaline
celerity
camouflage
silence
shifts
crags
shades
whips
enzyme clouds
bonewall
forward cysts
some are extremely situational, but even when that is factored in, and you start combining all these different things, then you get even more options and quite a bit of branching<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh no? A better representation would be to divide it into groups, if you get one hive choice all the other options are mediately locked out, leaving you only with 2 - 3 more things to spend res on 3. You're making it seem as if all those things can be built right off the bat...
Also, the marine comm play is pretty shallow too if you think of it, there's no real alternative to rushing PG tech first.
None of the things on the aliens team could really be described as a tech path, considering that you end up with all of them at the end. (Or, more realistically, two of them fully fleshed) On top of that, each one is so shallow it's more like a team upgrade rather than a specific life form upgrade. Again, you're the ability button masher. Build order only matters for the Marines, and they suffer for that very reason.
I agree it doesn't need a million overly complex tech trees, the problem is that the Marines have just that while the Aliens have a straight-as-an-arrow tech progression that unlocks things for players in an overly simplistic fashion.
If all the Alien commander is in charge of is pressing one of perhaps a dozen or so buttons once, why is there a commander in the first place?
Congratulations, you have touched upon the essence of why most veteran players still oppose the alien Khammander as a concept. We've been pointing this out since the early days of beta, but it's something UWE will not reconsider, ever. So hopefully they at least add some more depth to it.
Right, but the current options are just as boring or hardly worth taking (shade vs competent marines), which severely hampers the variety. A fourth option (like what xDragon is doing in NS2c) would help bring in some more variety and possibly bring out a different way of playing the game (more gameplay options). On the flip side, adding in ###### for the sake of adding it and labeling it variety or more options (rupture cysts, spike wall) hardly constitutes variety/options and is neither engaging or fun to use.
3 distinctive tech paths that still ends up being the same cookie cutter route each game.
Also, having half of the stuff that was in NS1 doesn't help either.
Marine relocate or a fast 2nd base is nothing like dropping a hive in the first 3 seconds of the game
Even when you get a 2nd chair up it does nothing alone; you need to build a lot more stuff
Hives have an immediately presence on the map <i>(even the unbuilt ones)</i>
I'm a bit surprised I have to explain this. . .
I'll go ahead and ignore the other comments that you made in your reply
Edits: any credit you want to hand out should probably be given to the OP
---
<u><b>SpaceJew:</b></u>
I described a lot of advanced tactics that you might see when some of the better commanders are at the wheel
Theres a lot more to add, but there's not need
You still haven't listed the problem you so boldly speak about
What exactly needs to be fixed? The game is certainly not as you described it. . . reread my post again if you disagree
-
It's only become obvious as a problem since they've removed every other effective possibility for the Aliens team. Structures, at one time, made a difference. It still wasn't a <i>huge</i> difference but it mattered. With most of that moot now, it has become exactly what you 'veteran' players said it was.
I can see how the developers are systematically removing every innovation NS2 made. I think the problem is simply that they didn't change <i>enough</i> for NS2, which is an issue Temphage pointed out in another thread that I'm starting to agree with.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marine relocate or a fast 2nd base is nothing like dropping a hive in the first 3 seconds of the game
Even when you get a 2nd chair up it does nothing alone you need to build a lot more stuff
Hives have an immediately presence on the map (even the unbuilt ones)
I'm a bit surprised I have to explain this. . .
I'll go ahead and ignore the other comments in your reply<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can call him stupid if you want, but you're the one that suggested it as a comparison in the first place. I assume you're ignoring the rest because you know you're wrong on this one and are just trolling since you had a crappy day at work. You're arguing with your own strawmen bro.
If you had bothered to read my first post I'd address your points, but since you weren't bothered to read mine I'll hardly bother with yours now. I'm not a game developer, ergo I don't need to fix UWE's game. I've made countless forum posts on suggestions on how to make things work better <i>in my opinion</i>, but they've gone ignored. Something that many Beta players said would happen, since many of their Beta concerns were also ignored. If you're here just to troll, I'll just need to report all your posts in this topic I suppose.
Marine relocate or a fast 2nd base is nothing like dropping a hive in the first 3 seconds of the game
Even when you get a 2nd chair up it does nothing alone you need to build a lot more stuff
Hives have an immediately presence on the map <i>(even the unbuilt ones)</i>
I'm a bit surprised I have to explain this. . .
I'll go ahead and ignore the other comments that you made in your reply
-<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
10/10
You got me to bite.
Because of course, basic communication isn't an option in public servers. If you ask if anyone is saving for fade and explain you're deciding weather to get blink, and no one asks for blink, no one has a right to whine about it.
+1. Alien commander needs to become less passive. I love the celestial gardener role sometimes, but for having an impact in games you don't come close the marine commander.
Method of prioritization of one of your four options doesn't really matter that much, does it? Unless you have the Marines on the ropes with three hives before Fades I rather doubt you would skip it. Without the ability to drop Onos Fades are your top-tier killers, or at least are supposed to be.
I love how people argue using the current flawed game mechanics though. 'But you can skip blink since Fades are completely useless therefore you're wrong that Aliens is too simplistic!'
Hmm...ok?
the point is that most of them are legitimate choices that have different impacts on the game, and if the teams are good, then the choice of what to spend res on can decide the game
there is a strategic difference between
harvesters -> upgrade -> hive
upgrade -> harvesters -> hive
hive -> harvesters -> upgrade
and even more choice when you throw in drifters / shift / crag / lerk
and even more choice when you consider that there are different upgrades
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I specifically created a list of the things you can do as an alien commander. It's in my signature. Telling me what you can build doesn't negate the reasons why you shouldn't bother at all.
Basically, the entire thought process behind the Alien commander has become an abortion of a concept. Without meaty structures that make meaningful contributions to the gameplay, it might as well go back to NS1 gorge building. It would actually be better at this point, and I don't really like the idea overall beyond it being an improvement over what we have now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but they are meaningful. upgrades are meaningful. a 2nd hive is meaningful. harvesters are meaningful. well-placed shifts / crags / drifters are meaningful. even whips have a use. the whole point of an RTS is that everything is useful in some situation - you just don't have the resources for everything
if you are playing a game where it doesn't matter what you choose, that is the fault of the teams... admittedly, that is the most common scenario, but nothing short of a complete redesign is going to fix that. every economic game is going to be completely and totally pointless if teams are unfair
it's like any resource management game really. the only difference is that NS2's decisions have a much more subtle impact which won't even manifest in the vast majority of matches that people play.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If all the Alien commander is in charge of is pressing one of perhaps a dozen or so buttons once, why is there a commander in the first place?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
and alien comm shouldn't be a full-time job. throw something down, then hop out and be useful while you wait for res to come in. aliens are best played when everyone on the team knows how to hop in a hive and click a button or two...
I love how people argue using the current flawed game mechanics though. 'But you can skip blink since Fades are completely useless therefore you're wrong that Aliens is too simplistic!'
Hmm...ok?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree the aliens "celestial gardener" (I really like that description) is too simplistic right now. It's less "skipping blink" and more "delaying blink". The choice is in the order of upgrades (leap first, but do you go spore, bile, or blink next?), it's very rarely a meaningful choice though. I'm just disputing that you have no way of making that decision outside of just picking a number out of a hat. Blink is very often the more delayable upgrade in pub servers, but not always, and you figure that out by asking your team if anyone wants to fade.
I want to put out there though, while the kham is still too simple, it's still in a much better state of things than the total non-decisions in terms of strategy we had as aliens in NS1. There was a specific way you played the game in NS1, pretty much entirely decided by when you hit certain p-res milestones, and if you deviated, you basically just outright lost. The most meaningful actual "decision" was, "do you go for the bad chamber, the pretty good chamber, or the good chamber?" Every other thing was "as soon as someone has res for it"
Exactly, hence why it makes no sense to have it implemented the way it is right now. By giving the job to the gorges to build would make the class much more interesting to play, while it also automatically fixes the everbroken lifeform explosion.
Either make the alien comm fulltime like the marine comm (+ figure out a way to finally fix lifeform explosion), or just admit defeat and get rid of it.
So it's like every other RTS out there, only managing your resources one way doesn't really do anything different than another way most of the time.
I agree that you <i>can</i> change your build order around, but it doesn't make any real difference in how the game is played versus using a completely different 'tech tree' than another one. The only tree that <i>does</i> change the dynamic (shade) is under used due to it's ease of counter by the other team. So you will pretty much <i>always</i> see Shift, Crag, Shade or Crag, Shift, Shade as the two viable tech paths. This means you will always have the same four general upgrades mid game, and therefore the only real variation is in the order you unlock life form specific upgrades. The only real 'choice' or 'diversity' is what order you get leap, bile, spores, and blink. The fact that aliens should only be on one hive for a very brief window early game makes the problem worse, as often you get all the upgrades at the same time <i>after</i> the second hive is done. (Which I personally don't care for as a strategy due to it's high risk nature without a correspondingly high return on that risk.)
If you lose obviously the build order goes out the window as you aren't building, you're losing, and there isn't a darn thing the alien commander can do about that.
I find it a similar level of fun... But I feel a lot lazier doing it at the same time.
Just... think about it for a moment and before someone begins to create a long list of things the marine commander can do and should/shouldn't do - Then do the same to the alien commander and compare it.
Its just the way the game is designed.
Either make the alien comm fulltime like the marine comm (+ figure out a way to finally fix lifeform explosion), or just admit defeat and get rid of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it only makes no sense if you stay in the hive and get bored. you should be getting out and helping fight if you're just waiting for res. from a game design perspective, alien comm is a fine abstraction for spending tres
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree that you can change your build order around, but it doesn't make any real difference in how the game is played versus using a completely different 'tech tree' than another one. The only tree that does change the dynamic (shade) is under used due to it's ease of counter by the other team. So you will pretty much always see Shift, Crag, Shade or Crag, Shift, Shade as the two viable tech paths. This means you will always have the same four general upgrades mid game, and therefore the only real variation is in the order you unlock life form specific upgrades. The only real 'choice' or 'diversity' is what order you get leap, bile, spores, and blink. The fact that aliens should only be on one hive for a very brief window early game makes the problem worse, as often you get all the upgrades at the same time after the second hive is done. (Which I personally don't care for as a strategy due to it's high risk nature without a correspondingly high return on that risk.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the game as it currently stands needs to be about whether or not to even get techs at all instead of making inconsequential choice about what order to research them in. that game does exist, but only when marines are competent and succeed at applying pressure to alien economy + structures.
the style of relaxed growth where aliens are always swimming in tres (most NS2 matches) is not a good strategy game, and it's why aliens always win when skills are similarly low. the game only works when you never have enough res for what you want. the situations you describe are when no pressure has been applied and you have res for everything
i've been in those situations, and agree that they are boring and it's a shame that nearly all public games result in that situation.
however, 'fixing aliens' isn't going to change that. that is entirely the fault of passive marines.
until the engine framerate / responsiveness / netcode improves drastically, marines will just never live long enough to get into the hive and kill a shell or kill a harvester that the aliens actually expected to defend