Mines
reasa
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Mines Mines Mines</div>Simple topic.
Mines are conceptually a great weapon for marines. Excellent for protecting vulnerable structures and providing a little cover and reassurance for vents and doorways.
However, there are some major issues with them that are really easy to fix.
I suggest doing one of the following.
<b>1.) </b>Decrease the cost of a pack of mines to 10 pres from the 15 now. 15 pres is too much for only 3 mines.
<b>2.)</b> Increase the damage they do slightly. One mine should kill a skulk if it runs into it, yet they consistently do not.
<b>3.) </b>Increase the number of mines. Keep the cost at 15pres but give 5 mines per pack at their current damage level. As it is it takes more than one mine to kill a skulk so allow marines to use more.
Why do one of these?
<ul><li>One mine rarely kills a skulk in one hit.
</li><li>They are large and easy to spot.
</li><li>A carapace skulk can run right through one with ease.
</li><li>They are largely ineffective against other life forms.
</li><li>They are, by and large, only useful in the early game, where 15pres is too much for them as they are now, on top of the tres needed to get them at all.
</li><li>Lastly they can be (and often are) detonated by any alien projectile. Making an investment of 15pres totally wasted, and unlike any other armory item, they are obviously unrecoverable.</li></ul>
Mines are conceptually a great weapon for marines. Excellent for protecting vulnerable structures and providing a little cover and reassurance for vents and doorways.
However, there are some major issues with them that are really easy to fix.
I suggest doing one of the following.
<b>1.) </b>Decrease the cost of a pack of mines to 10 pres from the 15 now. 15 pres is too much for only 3 mines.
<b>2.)</b> Increase the damage they do slightly. One mine should kill a skulk if it runs into it, yet they consistently do not.
<b>3.) </b>Increase the number of mines. Keep the cost at 15pres but give 5 mines per pack at their current damage level. As it is it takes more than one mine to kill a skulk so allow marines to use more.
Why do one of these?
<ul><li>One mine rarely kills a skulk in one hit.
</li><li>They are large and easy to spot.
</li><li>A carapace skulk can run right through one with ease.
</li><li>They are largely ineffective against other life forms.
</li><li>They are, by and large, only useful in the early game, where 15pres is too much for them as they are now, on top of the tres needed to get them at all.
</li><li>Lastly they can be (and often are) detonated by any alien projectile. Making an investment of 15pres totally wasted, and unlike any other armory item, they are obviously unrecoverable.</li></ul>
Comments
Mines aren't meant to defend bases on their own... if there's not at least one marine there (who can use the mines for positioning) then it's not an issues at all for a skulk to kill something
Mines are borderline overpowered when used as a team. The fact that you can drop 3 mines, stand on top of them, and be immune to skulks is almost too powerful. Teammates can stand on friendly mines and take no damage when the mine almost one shots the attacking skulk.
They do not need be more spammable (#1 and 3). They do not need to do more damage (#2) because they almost one shot a skulk as is. All it takes is one marine plinking the skulk once or twice and the mine ends it.
Mines are exceptionally powerful in the early game, where stopping harass is important. Place them behind RTs, under power nodes, and in vents. You'll rack up the kills and keep your res flowing.
I feel like every time I see one of these threads, it's just people using them wrong.
Second,make mine do more damage when they are stacked.Stack of mines is easier to spot and thus you should be really punished if you still step on those.
But holy crap they are not good enough, I think we need to buff them to be tactical nuclear mines with no friendly fire and be able to insta-kill onos... That is deffo the correct direction for mines to go in.
Also deffo need to be 1 res per tactical nuclear mine.
Mines are borderline overpowered when used as a team. The fact that you can drop 3 mines, stand on top of them, and be immune to skulks is almost too powerful. Teammates can stand on friendly mines and take no damage when the mine almost one shots the attacking skulk.
They do not need be more spammable (#1 and 3). They do not need to do more damage (#2) because they almost one shot a skulk as is. All it takes is one marine plinking the skulk once or twice and the mine ends it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm confused here, it seems your big objection to mines is that they make marines "immune" to skulks by plopping them down and then camping on top of them or hiding behind some kind of 3 mine barrier they made? Is that right?
Because I have literally never once seen this. A marine camping on top of or behind mines. If anything you should be happy as an alien if a marine is doing this. It takes one marine out of play as he camps on mines like an idiot.
Anyone doing that is using mines wrong and just playing wrong and hurting his team.
I agree with the other posters who say mines are powerful in the early game, they are. But they are too EXPENSIVE for the early game. You start with 20 pres. A pack of mine costs 15pres and is at its most useful for about the first five mins. of the game. That’s one pack of 3 mines, enough to <i>maybe</i> protect one resnode/power supply. 15pres.
Now the marine that bought mines to help his team is stunted from getting a shotgun or anything else as soon as his mates who did not buy mines.
See the dilemma? When mines are useful they cost too much, by the time the cost might not be an issue, they are not powerful enough to matter.
Mines are hardly OP.
Because I have literally never once seen this. A marine camping on top of or behind mines. If anything you should be happy as an alien if a marine is doing this. It takes one marine out of play as he camps on mines like an idiot.
Anyone doing that is using mines wrong and just playing wrong and hurting his team.
I agree with the other posters who say mines are powerful in the early game, they are. But they are too EXPENSIVE for the early game. You start with 20 pres. A pack of mine costs 15pres and is at its most useful for about the first five mins. of the game. That’s one pack of 3 mines, enough to <i>maybe</i> protect one resnode/power supply. 15pres.
Now the marine that bought mines to help his team is stunted from getting a shotgun or anything else as soon as his mates who did not buy mines.
See the dilemma? When mines are useful they cost too much, by the time the cost might not be an issue, they are not powerful enough to matter.
Mines are hardly OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just so you know, we are talking about this game.
<a href="http://store.steampowered.com/app/4920/" target="_blank">http://store.steampowered.com/app/4920/</a>
You dont seem to be talking about the same game.
Take a look at any given division1 match or PCW and you'll see mines used extensively, when pushing harvesters or hives, when securing phasegates, pretty much anywhere that sees action (and sometimes sneaky spots that don't).
I think this is where the disconnect happened, reasa seems to be talking about public play only whereas GORGEous and PsympleJester have more complex scenarios in mind.
I agree with the latter though, mines are fine at the moment. Really, go watch competitive play and you'll realise the only thing that needs to be buffed when it comes to mines is public awareness.
Take a look at any given division1 match or PCW and you'll see mines used extensively, when pushing harvesters or hives, when securing phasegates, pretty much anywhere that sees action (and sometimes sneaky spots that don't).
I think this is where the disconnect happened, reasa seems to be talking about public play only whereas GORGEous and PsympleJester have more complex scenarios in mind.
I agree with the latter though, mines are fine at the moment. Really, go watch competitive play and you'll realise the only thing that needs to be buffed when it comes to mines is public awareness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I’m not really concerned about competitive play at all. Balancing the game for >5% of its player base is a terrible, terrible idea and one of the reasons NS keeps bleeding players. It is incredibly unfriendly to new players and honestly the concerns of the so called competitive elite need to take a back burner if this game wants to expand.
And as far as 95% of the player base is concerned, mines need ether a damage buff or a pres decrease.
Personally I think 10pres for 3 mines is more than fair.
Because I have literally never once seen this. A marine camping on top of or behind mines. If anything you should be happy as an alien if a marine is doing this. It takes one marine out of play as he camps on mines like an idiot.
Anyone doing that is using mines wrong and just playing wrong and hurting his team.
I agree with the other posters who say mines are powerful in the early game, they are. But they are too EXPENSIVE for the early game. You start with 20 pres. A pack of mine costs 15pres and is at its most useful for about the first five mins. of the game. That’s one pack of 3 mines, enough to <i>maybe</i> protect one resnode/power supply. 15pres.
Now the marine that bought mines to help his team is stunted from getting a shotgun or anything else as soon as his mates who did not buy mines.
See the dilemma? When mines are useful they cost too much, by the time the cost might not be an issue, they are not powerful enough to matter.
Mines are hardly OP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, obviously because you've been playing with people who don't know how to effectively use mines, you see them as underpowered. Perhaps if you simply watched how other players used them then you would understand how powerful mines can be. Mines are demonstrably effective. There's a reason you see the spammed in every single competitive game. If pubbers count use their teamwork to put 2+2 together then you would see the same tactics in pubs. Lack of basic teamwork is not an excuse for buffs to an already very strong item.
You don't speak for 95% of the population. Nor is the majority, arguable if there even is one, always right. Mines have consistently demonstrated their early game effectiveness.
And as far as 95% of the player base is concerned, mines need ether a damage buff or a pres decrease.
Personally I think 10pres for 3 mines is more than fair.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't speak for 95% of the player base. Don't pretend like you do.
Never said I did. Also I don't think you needed to double post the same thought....
My point still stands though. You can't balance the game solely for "competitive" level play, it has to be a give and take.
Making mines cost less is a petty damn small "give."
Somehow I think those clever, elite, uber skilled, ultra awesome, super duper, pro players would be able to adapt to lowering the pres cost of mines to 10.
Somehow I think they could manage...it would be tough, I expect marines will just utterly dominate for many months, but somehow...the competitive scene won't wither and die because mines cost less...call it a hunch.
4 mines is the cost of a shotgun (if you were to break it into per mine cost)...and it's something that can be taken out quite easily by ANY alien outside of Skulks. If I'm a fade I just run over the mine and shrug it off.
They are very handy for pushing outside of a hive, but they are quite expensive.
My point still stands though. You can't balance the game solely for "competitive" level play, it has to be a give and take.
Making mines cost less is a petty damn small "give."
Somehow I think those clever, elite, uber skilled, ultra awesome, super duper, pro players would be able to adapt to lowering the pres cost of mines to 10.
Somehow I think they could manage...it would be tough, I expect marines will just utterly dominate for many months, but somehow...the competitive scene won't wither and die because mines cost less...call it a hunch.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2042675:date=Dec 9 2012, 08:50 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 9 2012, 08:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2042675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And as far as 95% of the player base is concerned, mines need ether a damage buff or a pres decrease.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh..
Only lowering the cost by 33% isn't a big change? That's a potential 33% more mines spammed. 5 players could drop 30 mines in the first two minutes of the game.
You seem to think mines are only balanced in competitive play because only competitive players really use them. That's simply not true. They're also balanced in pub play, just pubbers don't use them because they don't understand how. Your whole post is a blatant example of how not to use mines. You seem to think they're for killing skulks, but they're not. They're area denial and force multipliers. And they're damn good at it up until fades and bilebomb starts to come out.
Yes, I know. Skulk's parasite can also blow up mines. None of these are good at it, however.
if you assume that the role of a mine is to kill Skulks, then yes, it is ineffective at this. however, as an area denial mechanic, it's quite fine. if a Skulk hits a mine and leaves it at 1HP, that Skulk has to either waste time by running back to the Hive to heal, or attempt RT harass at 1 pistol shot's worth of HP. neither of those are favorable, and well worth the cost in slowing down pushes or saving extractors.
<!--quoteo(post=2041279:date=Dec 6 2012, 05:15 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 6 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>They are large and easy to spot.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not denying that they're easy to spot, but you can't expect to simply place them in random hallways and hope Skulks run into them, either. clever uses of mines include placing them around corners in vents, for example. this basically guarantees a dead Lerk or Skulk that's trying to escape. on the flipside, if you're being flanked and a Skulk runs into it from the vent, then that Skulk can now easily be finished off if it still decides to engage you. finally, the last possible scenario - the Skulk sees the mine in the vent, and it can no longer flank from that direction. think of the vent that leads into Computer Lab from Sub Access in ns2_summit. if you mine up that vent, Skulks can only engage from one long hallway, or they have to loop <i>all</i> the way around Crossroads to engage.
another scenario is using them in pushes against Hives - if you lay mines down at your feet or your teammates' feet, the Skulks don't have to blow them up for the mines to pay their cost multiple times over and over again. forcing the Skulks to take specific paths or jump over mines <i>while</i> fighting is just as effective. mines are for area denial.
<!--quoteo(post=2041279:date=Dec 6 2012, 05:15 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 6 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>They are largely ineffective against other life forms. </li><li>They are, by and large, only useful in the early game, where 15pres is too much for them as they are now, on top of the tres needed to get them at all.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerks and Skulks make up the bulk of the early-game army, so these points are the same. I don't think every mechanic has to be good at all stages of the game - especially not static defenses. even if this was something you <i>did</i> want to achieve, neither increasing the res cost nor the amount of mines furthers this goal. increasing the damage might, but it tips the balance out of favor for the early-game mines (which is fine) for a very small tradeoff of having mines be relevant in the late-game, where marine turtling is already incredibly effective.
edit: I wouldn't mind having upgrades scale with mines, but that leaves them in the awkward place of being either too weak in the early game, or too deadly in the lategame.
as far as the res cost being too high, the only other items you're spending pres on are Shotguns (which typically don't come until after weapons upgrades) and Welders, no? you have nothing else but to spend it on mines. allowing early game spamming of mines just results in more PvE-focused gameplay, which I think is detrimental (the original design goals of UWE reflect this as well).
<!--quoteo(post=2041279:date=Dec 6 2012, 05:15 PM:name=reasa)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reasa @ Dec 6 2012, 05:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2041279"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><ul><li>Lastly they can be (and often are) detonated by any alien projectile. Making an investment of 15pres totally wasted, and unlike any other armory item, they are obviously unrecoverable.</li></ul><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
of course, a mine that's placed in the middle of a room can be killed even by parasite. see the above paragraphs for placing them correctly. I would rather players learn to place them correctly than to coddle players into spamming mines everywhere (or mines that do too much damage), and I feel like that's unquestionably the correct decision to make from a balance / gameplay perspective, as well.
<b>2.)</b> Increase the damage they do slightly. One mine should kill a skulk if it runs into it, yet they consistently do not.
<b>3.) </b>Increase the number of mines. Keep the cost at 15pres but give 5 mines per pack at their current damage level. As it is it takes more than one mine to kill a skulk so allow marines to use more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) and 3) Making them easily spammable is a terrible idea.
2) I agree with raising their damage if they reduce the blast radius. Too often do I die to Mines from fellow teammates running into them.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A carapace skulk can run right through one with ease.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good. This should be the case. Carapace should be a counter to Mines.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are largely ineffective against other life forms.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good. Those higher life forms cost a hell of a lot more than 15 pres.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They are, by and large, only useful in the early game, where 15pres is too much for them as they are now, on top of the tres needed to get them at all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You forgot to mention that they are EXTREMELY effective early game. 15 res is nothing when you can defend a base from a few skulks without having anyone there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lastly they can be (and often are) detonated by any alien projectile. Making an investment of 15pres totally wasted, and unlike any other armory item, they are obviously unrecoverable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not putting them in the right spot. Find vent entrances/exits and Marine bases/expansions. The element of surprise is huge.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Stacking mines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Back in Alpha/Beta when you could stack mines on top of each other, it was too easy to kill a Fade by having them blink to you and die to your 3 mines and your LMG bullets. 15 res for 50 res? Not a fair trade.
<!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->TL;DR: Mines are fine. <!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
Marines need a slight buff in different areas.
I only play pub games, but have been for some time.
When the commander is smart enough to get phase tech + mines asap you can basically hold the aliens by the balls from start to finish. Don't even bother saving your pres for shotguns, plenty of noobs on the marine team getting killed with their newly bought shotgun when they become available.
And in some miraculous case the rest of the marine team was also smart enough to buy and place mines you will very quickly gain pres to buy your beloved shotgun as you probable have the whole map controlled by then.
Mines are fine.
<b>@reasa :</b> the damage and number are fine.Maybe they should decrease the cost to 10 Res.
<b>@ComboBreaker :</b> make mine do more damage when they are stacked. +1
<b>@Burdock :</b> "It would be nice to see a late game upgrade (proto lab or robo + AA) that does something cool.... Like a short 1 second slow of 50% or energy sap , to add some tactical depth! otherwise there fine" . + 1 For slow or energy sap (What a genius idea , I love it) 15 Res.
<b>@GORGEous :</b> "Mines are demonstrably effective" .Agree with you but the problem is that Mines doesn't scale well into late game and <b>"Burdock"</b> is here to save the Deal :D
I love when Noob Player #1 purchases a Shotgun. I buy mines, rack up the kills in choke points, pick up Noob Player #1's SG after his inevitable death, hold a hallway (or otherwise long shooting gallery), purchase more mines, and ultimately control an entire part of the map solo. This is all thanks to the early (and balanced) power of mines versus Non-Carapaced Skulks. Mines are also my favorite counter to Shade Hive 1st, as they cannot rely on Carapace to blindly stumble through choke points.
I like Milanium's idea of being able to purchase individual mines at the same total cost. By far one of the greatest contributions a Rookie has suggested thus far :)
I prefer games were the marines will try various tactics but decreasing the res cost by 5 would only guarantee their use in every game.
<b>@Milanium : </b> Nice alternative dude.
<b>@Kazter :</b> that he joined the forum at 27-December 12 doesn´t mean that he is a Rookie or a Noob and also You did the same with me.Amigo don´t judge people you don't even know.