Camo isn't OP, it's broken. My suggestion.
Shrimm
Join Date: 2012-10-05 Member: 161652Members
Join Date: 2012-10-05 Member: 161652Members
Okay so, before when you where cloaked you would be slightly visible, Which sucked! I hated it when I played alien, Camo was so annoying at times. However now that camo can't be seen at all there's a problem.
You see aliens can cloak now and the only counter is Tres for a scan which isn't a perfect counter because you can't scan for your marines constantly. It just isn't feasible, so Camo is in a sense 'OP'.
Now I will admit I wasn't a die hard NS1 fan, I was only 12-15 when I played it, but camo was never this bad. I feel the main reason for this is because of motion tacking.
For those of you that don't know, motion tracking was like a personal scan but constant and only revealed aliens that were running. This means if they were walking (holding shift) they wouldn't be detected by motion tracking. It was an upgrade your commander could research.
So my suggestion is either, add motion tracking as an upgrade. This would help marines to know what they are dealing with when they're walking around. As well as force aliens to use there invisibility intelligently instead of as soon as they hear footsteps.
Or aliens could be say 20% visible while walking, 40% while running, completely visible while attacking and a few seconds after, and completely invisible while stationary.
Or, simply revert to the previous implementation of camo, where cloaking wasn't 100% invisible.
You see aliens can cloak now and the only counter is Tres for a scan which isn't a perfect counter because you can't scan for your marines constantly. It just isn't feasible, so Camo is in a sense 'OP'.
Now I will admit I wasn't a die hard NS1 fan, I was only 12-15 when I played it, but camo was never this bad. I feel the main reason for this is because of motion tacking.
For those of you that don't know, motion tracking was like a personal scan but constant and only revealed aliens that were running. This means if they were walking (holding shift) they wouldn't be detected by motion tracking. It was an upgrade your commander could research.
So my suggestion is either, add motion tracking as an upgrade. This would help marines to know what they are dealing with when they're walking around. As well as force aliens to use there invisibility intelligently instead of as soon as they hear footsteps.
Or aliens could be say 20% visible while walking, 40% while running, completely visible while attacking and a few seconds after, and completely invisible while stationary.
Or, simply revert to the previous implementation of camo, where cloaking wasn't 100% invisible.
Comments
To be honest, 20% & 40% visibility stuff is really pointless anyway and I'm personally against that stuff, because either there is too much visibility or either it remains next to invisible. Thus either nobody uses it or it's the same as it is now. If you look at a target that is 40% transparent and it goes at your screen, you're going to notice it just like you would notice a target without transparency. Same goes for 20% really. So effectively, only remaining stationary is worth it. And hey, maybe that works, but then there are other questions instantly like how long it takes for someone to become invisible while stationary.
I just see this adding up balance work in other grounds, while solving partially the original problem. It's not worth it, even to experiment imo.
To be honest, 20% & 40% visibility stuff is really pointless anyway and I'm personally against that stuff, because either there is too much visibility or either it remains next to invisible. Thus either nobody uses it or it's the same as it is now. If you look at a target that is 40% transparent and it goes at your screen, you're going to notice it just like you would notice a target without transparency. Same goes for 20% really. So effectively, only remaining stationary is worth it. And hey, maybe that works, but then there are other questions instantly like how long it takes for someone to become invisible while stationary.
I just see this adding up balance work in other grounds, while solving partially the original problem. It's not worth it, even to experiment imo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, Unfortunately I agree after reading through (most of, don't know what PITA stands for) that.
As for the 20%, 40%, 100%, stuff I was thinking more of a skulk runs into a room and realizes a marine is there and corrects himself, type of thing, etc. This would exclude motion tracking from the equation so the skulk could potentially get away with that.
Honestly my main concern is Khamms almost always going camo first. It's fun as alien for the first few games. Then you realize the marines can't win the fight because they don't even know you're there so it's a guaranteed win each fight. That's why I would prefer motion tracking to be implemented over my suggestion.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo(post=2045384:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:54 AM:name=AuroN2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AuroN2 @ Dec 14 2012, 12:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->motion tracking would make cloaking useless. when cloaking wasn't 100% invisibility it was practically 0% invisible to any competent player, or cheating scumbag. so no.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if you played NS1. I don't feel like going into detail. Basically motion tracking forced skulks to play smart, It didn't give them no chance at succeeding.
Another option is just replacing it with something else. But they can always do the 100% invisible when standing still and less invisibility with movement. Or just drain the aliens energy when it runs out no cloaking. OR OR they could make scanning cheaper. A lot of ways to fix this.
I'm sorry but it's not fine. When almost every comm picks camo there is a problem.
Camo is extremely OP if your skulks can work it. This is an RTS game, marines should be able to react. instead there only choice is to waste tons of res on observatories and scans, which usually makes them lose anyway.
<!--quoteo(post=2045399:date=Dec 14 2012, 01:16 AM:name=YMICrazy502)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (YMICrazy502 @ Dec 14 2012, 01:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045399"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not gonna lie as an alien it does feel op as crap. I mean I'm constantly around groups of marines and no one can detect me. If I get scanned I retreat and then return later cloaked. And it's odd that it is complete invisibility. Real cloaking is more like a subtle glimmer that you only notice when the alien moves. This is like the alien is in another dimension lol. Hard to balance though. Maybe marines could get motion tracking balls or devices that stick on wall that could be destroyed easily as a forward defense like a mini observatory that dies easily and with no beconing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is kind of my point it's not fun for either team. Sure it's fun as alien a bit, then it's just like 'really this is too easy'.
But I'd honestly want invisibility to be a. completely removed or b. give it to fade with no upgrades needed (more preferably). Reason for this is: Skulks should seriously learn how to move around. You can be invisible to enemy marines. If you get caught, either your fault or the marine(s?) were good. Completely fair, imho. Lerks can move around very fast and quiet - again, no need for invisibility. And yes, I think that invisibility will become active on a Lerk if he just glides without flapping wings. And Gorges & Onos should not have access to it at all - just feels plain dumb that you have this bigass Onos stealthing around infront of marines. "Gee, I wonder how did that Onos pop right in my face in this corridor!"
And fade could use some love instead... if stealth was fade only mechanism, fade could become a lot more desirable than he is now. And though he is quick, but he's seriously too big target to try and lurk around. (I'm not also claiming that this would really solve fade thoroughly. Just that it might help. )
Devices for marines to uncloak Aliens in a room could an option. Small device to stick on a wall that could easly destroyed. Will costs 5-pres or something...
I think the real difficult is that it's a skill balance thing. If you scan too much you're broke, if you don't scan enough your marines all die. For some players it can be really hard to understand that one extreme or the other will not work. They're not used to games punishing them for exhibiting style, whether it be conservative style or excessive style. But countering cloakers is an optimums thing. You need to get maximum mileage out of minimum scan. It's VERY doable, but the intellectual part is the catching point.
The plausible explanation for them;
Due to the changes in bacterium creature bio electrics required for them to cloak it causes them to give off a large easily detectable magnetic field which through the use of frontierman EMF goggles is visually displayed.
Effects / workings.
Essentially a marine version of alien vision the difference being only individuals with stealth or structures generating the field can be seen. Whilst wearing them a marine will be able to see basic map outlines and only creatures or structures emitting stealth but no others.
The idea is the vision mode would promote team play for marines as you'd have someone able to see and mark cloaked enemies while being blind to non stealth enemies and structures so you'd still be able to ambush Marines solo as they'd have to flick vision modes to see you.
The item would have a low research cost however it would also require to be brought and as such a marine who dies would drop the visor.
Unlike scan it would only mark targets the player could see in their line of sight meaning hiding was still viable even for stealth enemies, it would jsut stop people being able to hide in plain sight.
Yes I get stealth isn't super powered and can cripple you late game however its not that fun to vs as a Marine when the enemy can expand and hide it so quick and easily and have their team attack much easier, especially if set up quick enough.
Next they'll want Silence to get a nerf, because it breaks immersion and makes it impossible to hear fast skulks.
If Marines didn't have a hard counter that cost you 15 T.Res for a structure you need anyway and 3 T.Res to use afterwards I'd agree with you. The fact it not only removes camouflage, but <i> highlights every nearby target</i> makes me say eject your commander. If you're the commander, get used to multitasking complicated T.Res expenditure judgments. It's what Marines are made of early game.
Honestly, I'd say scan before Marines move into an area <i>without</i> them having cloaking too. Especially if you have a noob team. Getting into the habit of doing this will probably benefit you in the end, as you'll know when it's time to use it.
I don't know how much time you've spent moving at a rate of 3, but it's slower than molasses in January. It also encourages new aliens players to derp around camping. Every time I've heard it suggested to go camo first on a server it's either suggested because aliens <i>know</i> they're better and are trolling, or because the commander doesn't know any better.
A decent marine team needs only to secure 2 Hive locations with obs and mines and aliens can not win. Never.
Problem for aliens is that they NEED shift+crag for all higher life forms. Marines will always be able to get 2 Hive locations if they really want and the commander scans. once there is a obs in the hive, its near impossible for aliens to get even close to the pg/power.
Also with shade first it is not that bad for marines if aliens have 1 or 2 harvesters more than normal, as long as they dont get to 3 hives.
Once the hives are secured by obs/pg/mines marines can start to cap res nodes which is easy at that point because if you own 3 tech points most res nodes are somewhere inside your territory.
Yes, there may be onos fade sonn because aliens might have had too many rts at the beginning, but what is a Onos without cara / cele or a Fade without cara / adren really gonna do?
The only viable situation for aliens to go shade first is if they are 99% sure that they will have 3 hives secured by the time higher lifeforms are required. This may apply with stacked alien teams roflstomping the marines or on alien biased maps.
e.g. on ref if aliens can defend smelting they get turbine for free and therefor can shade first. Or on cave when they are positive to hold deposit.
Veil costs
15 to get Camo up
Obs takes
15 to set up
3 after that every time to nulify stealth.
Essentially you're setting up a way to force Marines to have to spend far more resources to counter when their scan is temporary while Camo is permanent.
Additionally and here's the kicker.
Aliens have an anti scan capable structure in the form of a shade which costs the same as an obs meaning they still get the advantage of Camo and can counter Marines for a cost of only 15 more resources per area and 3 for ink each time.
The possible solutions I see are.
1) The one I suggested with a Marine item to counter it but that only works on stealth and hinder them otherwise. Essentially creating a marine counter thats mostly useless. It could even be done as a 15 recourse research permanent upgrade as then each side has a counter and a return counter in the form of EMF and camo and then Shade and Obs
2) Cut the observatory cost to 5 resources and a scan to 2 or even 1 so the resource cost vs counter is the same
Veil costs
15 to get Camo up
Obs takes
15 to set up
3 after that every time to nulify stealth.
Essentially you're setting up a way to force Marines to have to spend far more resources to counter when their scan is temporary while Camo is permanent.
Additionally and here's the kicker.
Aliens have an anti scan capable structure in the form of a shade which costs the same as an obs meaning they still get the advantage of Camo and can counter Marines for a cost of only 15 more resources per area and 3 for ink each time.
The possible solutions I see are.
1) The one I suggested with a Marine item to counter it but that only works on stealth and hinder them otherwise. Essentially creating a marine counter thats mostly useless. It could even be done as a 15 recourse research permanent upgrade as then each side has a counter and a return counter in the form of EMF and camo and then Shade and Obs
2) Cut the observatory cost to 5 resources and a scan to 2 or even 1 so the resource cost vs counter is the same<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you are completely neglecting the impact of going shade first has on the tech path as I explained in the post before. This game is asymmetrical.
Aliens need 3 tech points, marines need 2. So taking away the third from the aliens IS ABSOLUTELY worth some res spent on scans.
Aliens need 3 tech points, marines need 2. So taking away the third from the aliens IS ABSOLUTELY worth some res spent on scans.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So give Marines a stupidly high research cost counter to it then or make it so every time they die they have to re buy with personal resources.
say 30 - 45 to research EMF goggles
or 15 + a cost of 5 personnel resources to buy the item.
This way Marines still have to pay something to counter it so it won't be a walk over but it would stop it becoming a constant drain on resources and also time.
Thats the thing I've never got, sure the commander for the aliens can drop onos eggs at 3 hives but often Aliens have the resources to evolve Onos on their own sometimes up to 3 people with easily enough and used well cloaking and shades can more than make up for the lack of another evolution as the shade can be used as a portable stealth generator and counter to scans.
I get that its asymmetrical but the fact aliens get a direct counter to scan that gives stealth to everything in the area including infestation and structures is kind of a very powerful thing and as such it makes sense for Marines to have a better counter to stealth on a personal level. Hence the EMF visor / goggles suggesting as it essentially weakens the unit using it by making them only able to see stealth generating units so they can be ambushed by non stealthed units if they don't turn the EMF mode off.
A decent marine team needs only to secure 2 Hive locations with obs and mines and aliens can not win. Never.
Problem for aliens is that they NEED shift+crag for all higher life forms. Marines will always be able to get 2 Hive locations if they really want and the commander scans. once there is a obs in the hive, its near impossible for aliens to get even close to the pg/power.
Also with shade first it is not that bad for marines if aliens have 1 or 2 harvesters more than normal, as long as they dont get to 3 hives.
Once the hives are secured by obs/pg/mines marines can start to cap res nodes which is easy at that point because if you own 3 tech points most res nodes are somewhere inside your territory.
Yes, there may be onos fade sonn because aliens might have had too many rts at the beginning, but what is a Onos without cara / cele or a Fade without cara / adren really gonna do?
The only viable situation for aliens to go shade first is if they are 99% sure that they will have 3 hives secured by the time higher lifeforms are required. This may apply with stacked alien teams roflstomping the marines or on alien biased maps.
e.g. on ref if aliens can defend smelting they get turbine for free and therefor can shade first. Or on cave when they are positive to hold deposit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, this is dead wrong.
Celerity and adrenaline are not very helpful in combat. You need onos to take defended areas, which, again, do not need celerity or adrenaline to be effective. In fact, neither celerity nor adrenaline help onos do their job as neither one helps him in combat.
Not to mention the fact that if marines are taking 3 tech points against lolcamo then aliens are clearly outskilled and would have lost with any opener.
say 30 - 45 to research EMF goggles
or 15 + a cost of 5 personnel resources to buy the item.
This way Marines still have to pay something to counter it so it won't be a walk over but it would stop it becoming a constant drain on resources and also time.
Thats the thing I've never got, sure the commander for the aliens can drop onos eggs at 3 hives but often Aliens have the resources to evolve Onos on their own sometimes up to 3 people with easily enough and used well cloaking and shades can more than make up for the lack of another evolution as the shade can be used as a portable stealth generator and counter to scans.
I get that its asymmetrical but the fact aliens get a direct counter to scan that gives stealth to everything in the area including infestation and structures is kind of a very powerful thing and as such it makes sense for Marines to have a better counter to stealth on a personal level. Hence the EMF visor / goggles suggesting as it essentially weakens the unit using it by making them only able to see stealth generating units so they can be ambushed by non stealthed units if they don't turn the EMF mode off.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is that your solution would in fact not buff the marines but instead weaken them.
Why?
Because people would spent PRES on these goggles instead of shotguns later while the comm spends res on a expensive tech instead of weapon ups. Then suddently the onos/Fades without cara can compete with marines, because the marines lack firepower.
With the 30-45 res you suggest for a tech to counter camo, a comm can scan 2 hive locations 2-3 times each + get an obs in each location. These 2-3 scans are sufficient to completely negate camo until obs is up. then every marines buys mines and mines the pgs in the 2 hive locations+base.
Thats basically GG.
Yesterday I played 2 games in a row as marine against a stacked Alien team on Yo clan server.
The aliens each time got a Comm who went Shade first. This resulted in us marines capping 2 tech points(thanks to good comming with many scans) and thus slowly and awkwardly winning against far better aliens.
The only real problem marines have with camo is dying. They dont like to die. But in reality there is no problem whatsoever about dying as a marine. In fact there is absoultly no reason not to die as long as you die doing something useful. Once marines realize this camo becomes that much weaker...
Thats basically GG.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Camo skulks are still skulks. Lerks still come out before/at phasegate times when you'd be able to hold forward obs. Even if the commander scans these locations, the marines can still easily lose the fight (and the 15 tres obs investment). You seem to assume that marines win every fight if the aliens go camo, but that simply isn't the case. Skulks are still skulks and lerks are still lerks even when they're scanned.
If you assume that your team is going to win every fight and hold every area they take then obviously you're going to win every theoretical game.
Celerity and adrenaline are not very helpful in combat. You need onos to take defended areas, which, again, do not need celerity or adrenaline to be effective. In fact, neither celerity nor adrenaline help onos do their job as neither one helps him in combat.
Not to mention the fact that if marines are taking 3 tech points against lolcamo then aliens are clearly outskilled and would have lost with any opener.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Celerity greatly boosts the frequency of Onos attacks, as it makes it alot faster to get to the next hive and heal up
2) Adren+Cara gorge is the best friend of any onos. Not possible with Shade first
3) If you dont get 2 Hives as marines it is GG anyways, regardless which chaber aliens went first
<!--quoteo(post=2045563:date=Dec 14 2012, 01:37 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 14 2012, 01:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045563"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camo skulks are still skulks. Lerks still come out before/at phasegate times when you'd be able to hold forward obs. Even if the commander scans these locations, the marines can still easily lose the fight (and the 15 tres obs investment). You seem to assume that marines win every fight if the aliens go camo, but that simply isn't the case. Skulks are still skulks and lerks are still lerks even when they're scanned.
If you assume that your team is going to win every fight and hold every area they take then obviously you're going to win every theoretical game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What Im saying is that with scan and obs against camo the odds are as marine biased as they will ever get in NS2. Aliens have no upgrade and cant ambush.
2) Adren+Cara gorge is the best friend of any onos. Not possible with Shade first
3) If you dont get 2 Hives as marines it is GG anyways, regardless which chaber aliens went first<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) it really doesn't matter. The two extra seconds it takes to run back to the hive doesn't matter. Celerity does nothing for trying to run away or engage because you lose all your speed when you take a bullet.
2) adrenaline is really not necessary for anything, a cara gorge is 90% as effective as an adren-cara gorge
3) yet another reason why camo is so broke in pubs. It gives aliens a huge force multiplier and can frequently outright deny marines 2nd chair because marines can't spam scans all around the map.
Stay in large groups
As you push into a room ask for a scan <i>(it's worth while if your whole team is there)</i> and clear it out
If your team is holding a forward armory outside a hive or if you have phase it's very hard for camo aliens to really do anything about it until they get a 2nd hive
You must punish fast camo in the early game while you can
If early camo is skipped it is super unlikely that the aliens grab it as a second upgrade since shift + crag is the better combo usually
If you assume that your team is going to win every fight and hold every area they take then obviously you're going to win every theoretical game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a common behavior in pub games... people get too attached to stealth and then they become ###### when they get scanned. I can't say that I've won many games with stealth being first because it just doesn't always add up like people are talking in here. I hear lot of times how stealth is how even pros do it, but pubs seem to get just hampered for stealth because they become too attached to it.
I'm never too keen on camo myself mostly because you can still lurk around even without it. As you said, Skulks are Skulks and Lerks are Lerks. It's not exactly rocket science - they can be just as effective without stealth.
Thus I support that stealth is completely removed! Leave stealth only to Fade and give it to fade from the beginning. Fade is the only one that actually needs it. And scan should cost the same as it does now, because it's function extends beyond that of exposing stealth.
2) adrenaline is really not necessary for anything, a cara gorge is 90% as effective as an adren-cara gorge
3) yet another reason why camo is so broke in pubs. It gives aliens a huge force multiplier and can frequently outright deny marines 2nd chair because marines can't spam scans all around the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) High mobility is what makes an onos really strong. Without celerity you are not as mobile and more predictable which makes you weaker.
2) Withour adren you really cant heal an onos that efficiently. It makes it also impossible to heal the onos and then support the next attack with bile bomb which makes the gorge+onos combo so strong
3) not all around the map. Just.inside.two.rooms.until.obs.is.up. <- Thats often times the reason why marines loose to camo: They try to establish the same map control as without camo. But the fact is: They really dont need to do that. They just need to control base+2 tech points.
Especially early game, when RT's are tight and you need regular scans on 2 different sides of the map. In that scenario it's usually the cost to keep scans up (to gain any ground at all) that slows down Marine economy to a screeching halt.
That's far more punishing than SC had ever been in NS1, but i would argue that SC first had been all kinds of underpowered in NS1.
Personally i would love to see the Observatory get it's energy back for Scans and maybe the Bacon (or leave it at t.res). Maybe add an "advanced obs" research so OBs need to be upgraded for energy scans? Maybe lowering the scan cost to 2 t.res or increasing the Observatory range?
But currently building "more OBs" to get more anti-cloak cover, feels like an futile effort because those extra OBs don't really help with scanning duty. Scanning still stays pretty expensive and can only be sustained with a ton of RT's or by cutting back on other things (upgrades).
Sure people might argue that Shade first is "easy to counter" by locking down 2 tech points, but that usually ends with Marines sitting on 3 RT's leaving map control to Kharaa. And with only 3 RT's and it's kinda hard to sustain scan coverage, keep the turtle/pressure going and tech up.
Imho that's one of the main reasons why Commanders on public have such an hard time with Shades. They either never scan or when they actually scan they need so many t.res to keep the coverage up that every push hurts the Marine economy badly.
The simplest solution would be to add a delay to uncloaking before you can bite. (Maybe even a sound.) There is a reason why the TF2 spy can't attack in the same moment he uncloaks. Just think about it. I think the people who argue, that camo is fine, either haven't played against a halfway decent alien team that goes early camo, or don't want to lose this overpowered ability because they like to get easy kills. And NO, scan is not a viable counter. Not only does it increase the dependency of marines from the commander, but also you can't pay for all the scans you would need to effective counter it. Lets just imagine: You got at least one group that is your main push (advancing to / securing a tech point or double res) You got another little team (1 or 2 marines) collecting resource nodes and building RTs. A scan costs 3 res and holds 10 seconds. We can say 14 seconds, because the alien needs time to engage again after a scan. If you are good, you hold 3 RTs in the early game. That means 6 res every 14 seconds. That is exactly the amount you need to cover 2 groups with scans. Maybe you prolong the breaks between the scan a bit, but this will not be enough. Maybe you can save 50% of your res income this way, but it creates big breaks in which the aliens can engage a marine group.
Add to this, that cloaked aliens can very easy harass your RTs. And that it is very easy to defend tech nodes from marines, when you are there before they are there. This way a second hive is nearly guaranteed with early camo. Giving you regen or cara. With regen, you are even more effective, because I can retread when scanned. And despite some theory crafters say, I never died while retreating when I was scanned as cloaked skulk. It is very easy to avoid being killed when you are fleeing as skulk. Also the so called problem, that pub-player play passive when they got camo, was never a problem for me. I just tell them (you know, thats why NS2 support mics) to use camo only to engage marines. And you won't believe it, but the players actually use it right after this.
This said, I will give you, that the shade tech tree is very weak in mid and late game. Yes, if we nerf camo, we may probably only see it with the 3rd hive again and I don't want that. But I think there are ways to make the shade tree viable without relying of it being overpowered in early game for skulks.
At least we need to:
1) make it skill-dependent to use
2) make it counter-able by the marines on the field.
And this is easily fixed by:
<b>Add a 0.5 or 1 second cooldown before you can bite after uncloaking (maybe with a sound).</b>
Or if scan had some sort of mechanism. It's cheaper to scan the first 2 times, but then there will be diminishing returns for multiple scans inside 5-10 seconds? In terms of higher tres cost. Or the opposite, but that's not intuitive and probably would make things a lot worse.
And necros suggestion about delay is... wow... Because Spy in TF2 works the same way? Why on earth would anyone even use stealth then? You can move around without getting noticed fine if you're good except in some situations, but then you'd rather want to consider another route. So effectively, making stealth completely useless in starting combat would just make it the last tech.
I still support the removal of stealth and introduce something better instead.
Celerity and adrenaline are not very helpful in combat. You need onos to take defended areas, which, again, do not need celerity or adrenaline to be effective. In fact, neither celerity nor adrenaline help onos do their job as neither one helps him in combat.
Not to mention the fact that if marines are taking 3 tech points against lolcamo then aliens are clearly outskilled and would have lost with any opener.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually I'd argue they are useful.
Celerity is good for hit and run style move and adrenaline will give far more energy to the attacker but its more useful on support classes like Gorge with Bile Bomb / healing spray and the Lurks expensive gas attacks.
Onos can benefit from either really if played the right way.
Though again 3 hive locations is only to spawn instant Onos it doesn't stop players using their own resources on them and they can be rather effective with any combination of 2 evolution paths, again its all about knowing how to play them.
<!--quoteo(post=2045553:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:29 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 12:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045553"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem is that your solution would in fact not buff the marines but instead weaken them.
Why?
Because people would spent PRES on these goggles instead of shotguns later while the comm spends res on a expensive tech instead of weapon ups. Then suddently the onos/Fades without cara can compete with marines, because the marines lack firepower.
With the 30-45 res you suggest for a tech to counter camo, a comm can scan 2 hive locations 2-3 times each + get an obs in each location. These 2-3 scans are sufficient to completely negate camo until obs is up. then every marines buys mines and mines the pgs in the 2 hive locations+base.
Thats basically GG.
Yesterday I played 2 games in a row as marine against a stacked Alien team on Yo clan server.
The aliens each time got a Comm who went Shade first. This resulted in us marines capping 2 tech points(thanks to good comming with many scans) and thus slowly and awkwardly winning against far better aliens.
The only real problem marines have with camo is dying. They dont like to die. But in reality there is no problem whatsoever about dying as a marine. In fact there is absoultly no reason not to die as long as you die doing something useful. Once marines realize this camo becomes that much weaker...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The issue is the commander is already spending the resources with obs and constant scanning. Along with time lost having to keep switching and scanning areas.
While you say it weakens the Marines if the visor were priced at 5 resources then it would create two possible support options for Marines as they can either get Welder or Visor also as I regularly find I can buy Welders and a shotgun it would create no real issue that way, it would just mean Marines sacrificed welders for visors.
Also in terms of resources.
2 Hive locations with the number of scans quoted would be 42 - 48 resources if you built the obs stations too. So 45 for a permanent upgrade is about the right kind of pricing as it would create a short term vs long term play style idea of going for a short term fix with the obs or running out for a longer term but more cost efficient over time research item.
Again Camo has its uses and a good alien team can be sitting in your base cutting you off the whole time and forcing your to recapture the same section 15 times while the rest of their force secures other areas.
It should be noted also unlike Aliens Marines indeed do have a reason to avoid death slightly more as by default there are less spawn locations, Marines having 1, 2 if the com builds early while aliens can replace 3-4 dead in the same period of time even more so if a shift is used.
Again at present Camo forces Marines to use more resources and time to counter it, both of which can be important factors in a match.
Sure its not some super OP ability but it does need tweeking to make it less super stompy, forcing Marines to have a slower game / waste time and resources as much.
You have to think Marines have to have fun and not feel like they have to be babysat by their commander the whole time or die. As people keep pointing out the Alien side does just fine with a less hands on commander as the commander doesn't need the team working constantly for him or to be constantly making sure they don't die so to allow the Marines to have visor would be a time choice by their commander and allow for more complex strategy such as double pushes rather than at present Stealth pretty much forcing either a single powerful push or two slow moving ones