Camo has an infield counter...actually two...obs scans (bot passive and active) and the other is a change of strategy, its been outlined above what you need to worry about if aliens go camo. Unlike a normal game you concede RT's and focus phase tech and on taking first a 2nd then a 3rd tech point, obs at each and continue to turtle/defend all three bases whilst you get some decent tech up. Dont try to play the game like normal as shade requires a totally different approach to counter, move in groups slowly push and hold tech points not RT's. When shade is first up 3rd hive is more than stomp, umbra and xenocide...its means crag and shift are able to be used in conjunction, which makes all aliens harder to kill. People are stuck thinking about the game play in one way, and fail to realise how exposed shade leave aliens. Sure you have to wait longer to get your upgrades, shotties might have to wait a bit....but it will win you the game if you deny the third hive ever going up. Its funny to watch an alien khamm try the strat against a marine team that knows what they need to do instead of cap res.
I enjoy playing against early camo, sure its a slower more unified game play but its fun to worry as you get the power up, then PG, OBS, Armoury up...only then do you feel "safe"...until you try to take the next tech point. This game is about tech points just as much as res nodes....but people dont seem to realise this but its crucial to understand that when playing against camo first. Third hive becomes as valuable...if not more so than the 2nd hive.
<!--quoteo(post=2045593:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:21 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 14 2012, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045593"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Camo has an infield counter...actually two...obs scans (bot passive and active) and the other is a change of strategy, its been outlined above what you need to worry about if aliens go camo. Unlike a normal game you concede RT's and focus phase tech and on taking first a 2nd then a 3rd tech point, obs at each and continue to turtle/defend all three bases whilst you get some decent tech up. Dont try to play the game like normal as shade requires a totally different approach to counter, move in groups slowly push and hold tech points not RT's. When shade is first up 3rd hive is more than stomp, umbra and xenocide...its means crag and shift are able to be used in conjunction, which makes all aliens harder to kill. People are stuck thinking about the game play in one way, and fail to realise how exposed shade leave aliens. Sure you have to wait longer to get your upgrades, shotties might have to wait a bit....but it will win you the game if you deny the third hive ever going up. Its funny to watch an alien khamm try the strat against a marine team that knows what they need to do instead of cap res.
I enjoy playing against early camo, sure its a slower more unified game play but its fun to worry as you get the power up, then PG, OBS, Armoury up...only then do you feel "safe"...until you try to take the next tech point. This game is about tech points just as much as res nodes....but people dont seem to realise this but its crucial to understand that when playing against camo first. Third hive becomes as valuable...if not more so than the 2nd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2045586:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:05 PM:name=Functional)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Functional @ Dec 14 2012, 03:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045586"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And necros suggestion about delay is... wow... Because Spy in TF2 works the same way?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know that he actually does? He gets invisible too and also is primary melee? 0.5 seconds isn't enough to warn the marine long before. But it is enough to compensate for the network delay.
I've got a question about NS1 because I can't remember it (camo was never my choice): could you move while cloaked?
Just to clarify my question: I don't have a problem with camo in NS2, I don't think it's OP or something, but I think that you lost you cloak in NS1 when you started moving... that would be a possible fix. Allthough it would make camo useless. =)
Another question: before they fixed camo to 0% visibility: I thought that you were only slightly visible when moving? Maybe that would be a fix (nerf, buff, I always get them wrong) if camo is really op (proven by statistics): 0% visibility while sitting/sitting & regenerating, slightly visible when moving.
But as I said, I don't really have a problem with camo: you can sit around hidden as a skulk/lerk everywhere and bases have obs most of the times.
<!--quoteo(post=2045564:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:38 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 12:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045564"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) Celerity greatly boosts the frequency of Onos attacks, as it makes it alot faster to get to the next hive and heal up 2) Adren+Cara gorge is the best friend of any onos. Not possible with Shade first 3) If you dont get 2 Hives as marines it is GG anyways, regardless which chaber aliens went first
What Im saying is that with scan and obs against camo the odds are as marine biased as they will ever get in NS2. Aliens have no upgrade and cant ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually with Camo + adrenaline then you can set up a gorge repair station where the Onos runs too and is healed up while in stealth by a hiding gorge who sprays from cover and then vanishes again.
Also it is only GG if it goes 3 hives to 1 command if its 2 hives to 1 command its possibly to create a very long drawn out game and even turn it round. Heck I've seen a 3 command point team lose due to their commander not moving infantry portals so they are spread out.
Actually Aliens can still Ambush it just requires you to trigger the ambush earlier by having someone infiltrate the reinforcement routes and tag the marines
<!--quoteo(post=2045566:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:41 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 14 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) it really doesn't matter. The two extra seconds it takes to run back to the hive doesn't matter. Celerity does nothing for trying to run away or engage because you lose all your speed when you take a bullet. 2) adrenaline is really not necessary for anything, a cara gorge is 90% as effective as an adren-cara gorge 3) yet another reason why camo is so broke in pubs. It gives aliens a huge force multiplier and can frequently outright deny marines 2nd chair because marines can't spam scans all around the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really as a gorge with bile bomb and adrenaline is a portable healing station and high powered mortar in one while carapace would let it survive better it wouldn't have as much combat ability. Having used adrenaline on a gorge with bile bomb the fact they can melt Exos if played well shows how powerful that combo can be compared to the lower firing rate and only marginal extra survivability coming from carapace.
As you push into a room ask for a scan <i>(it's worth while if your whole team is there)</i> and clear it out
If your team is holding a forward armory outside a hive or if you have phase it's very hard for camo aliens to really do anything about it until they get a 2nd hive
You must punish fast camo in the early game while you can
If early camo is skipped it is super unlikely that the aliens grab it as a second upgrade since shift + crag is the better combo usually<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too easy to abuse this move. I've forced the enemy too before by getting large groups to beacon to one area when the main attack took place else where. The option to be able to push with multiple groups needs to be there as it gives aliens the ability to be able to push two fronts far more easily with Camo. Remember the Aliens only need to hold your team whole team and can still push and expand while holding you steady
<!--quoteo(post=2045574:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:52 PM:name=ninjabusdriver)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ninjabusdriver @ Dec 14 2012, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see countless alien teams who fail to capitalize on the advantage of Camo and lose. It's quite counterable by staying in larger squads of marines, and getting armor 1. The more armor upgrades the marine team gets, the less useful camo is. If marines are able to capture one of the tech points on the map, aliens are going to have a pretty hard time of it when higher life forms come out and aren't very much helped by camo/silence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Expect to see this change quite a bit in the future as people get used to the advantages of Camo including .
1) Denying the enemy knowledge of your expansion plans, its expensive to an extent but you can hide your base and all your expansion. 2) Stealth attacks. with 2 points you can shift useful structures into the enemy base (or right outside it) so you only need 1 shade up in the enemy base they they can't see it coming, especially evil for filling the enemy base full of whips without them knowing or spotting them incoming.
Most people use it as a crutch to make up for lack of actual stealth abilities. and while I'm no Ninja with Cloak I can walk right by the enemy and not need to stop and hide and wait while they pass, it actually adds far more mobility to the aliens really as they don't lose time having to avoid patrols. Also you can harass so much easier with cloak especially as a well positioned Lurk able to attack from just out of obs range.
Played well Camo is very powerful not because of the pushing power as it doesn't gain this but in both the information you can get on the enemy without them realising, and the info you can hide from them, forcing them to run into traps they couldn't see etc. It's a very powerful and underestimated alien too creating a scenario that can be won just as easily as any other 2 hive scenario, maybe more so if people truly learn how useful it is and how much stealth with for example healing can create very rapid hit and run attacks from 2 sides. With preserving higher creature spawns then the 3rd hive isn't needed as people can personal resource the higher life forms.
Cammo simply forces a good marine team to slow down a little. It can actually improve their teamwork. If they move in groups, their comm scans the room right in front of them, and then they put up an obs in key rooms.... followed by phase gates, etc. (or right after). Doesn't take long for the whole map to defeat the entire cammo upgrade. And now the aliens have no useful upgrade.
I've been stuck on teams that were unable to leverage cammo due to this (and early failures)
The problem with camo 2 hive stays that your Fade/Onos will get ######ed up when pushing a defended position while your gorges will be only 50% as effective. Get as many information about the marines as you will. They are still able to turtle on 4 rts against 6 until they are have full upgrades and run a ######ing 10 Arc push to your hive.
You will not break a well defended Hive location without shift+crag combo.
It was said before: If marines play as usual against camo they get ######ed up hard by aliens. If marines adept and go to Turtle mode on 3 tech points aliens cant do much.
Shade first is a All-In strategy. As all All-Ins it can surely win you a game and make it look like marines never had a chance. But All-In strategies always have a hard counter which when apllied correctly make aliens loose in a pityful and frustrating way.
Look at my posts here in the forums, I agree that Alien is OP at the moment. And I really dont think this OP generally is a learn to play Issue.
but in this case Shade first is by far not OP and the reason for people believing it is actually IS a L2P issue. Once Marines adept to Shade first it£s basically GG.
If you dont believe me join the Yo clan server in the evening when the regulars are playing. Go Alien, run for comm and go shade first. You will realize that a decent marine team will struggle less against Shade first than against other openings if the game goes on for more than 10 minutes. (and you have a good chance of being ejected as alien comm who goes shade first)
<!--quoteo(post=2045613:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with camo 2 hive stays that your Fade/Onos will get ######ed up when pushing a defended position while your gorges will be only 50% as effective.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if you go cloak 1st you lock yourself into a hit and run approach and you either go with carapace and regen and make up for the gorge issue with healing plants or you get adrenaline and celerity and adapt by doing shorter attack runs before retreating, it doesn't screw you over if you adapt your play.
<!--quoteo(post=2045613:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Get as many information about the marines as you will. They are still able to turtle on 4 rts against 6 until they are have full upgrades and run a ######ing 10 Arc push to your hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you can turtle their base, with say a lurk on many maps being able to attack items such as the power node from outside of observatory radius
<!--quoteo(post=2045613:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You will not break a well defended Hive location without shift+crag combo.
It was said before: If marines play as usual against camo they get ######ed up hard by aliens. If marines adept and go to Turtle mode on 3 tech points aliens cant do much.
Shade first is a All-In strategy. As all All-Ins it can surely win you a game and make it look like marines never had a chance. But All-In strategies always have a hard counter which when apllied correctly make aliens loose in a pityful and frustrating way.
Look at my posts here in the forums, I agree that Alien is OP at the moment. And I really dont think this OP generally is a learn to play Issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not saying camo is some super OP strategy what I am saying is there needs to be something done as its just not that great and enjoyable to vs not when its the first hive up
<!--quoteo(post=2045613:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but in this case Shade first is by far not OP and the reason for people believing it is actually IS a L2P issue. Once Marines adept to Shade first it£s basically GG.
If you dont believe me join the Yo clan server in the evening when the regulars are playing. Go Alien, run for comm and go shade first. You will realize that a decent marine team will struggle less against Shade first than against other openings if the game goes on for more than 10 minutes. (and you have a good chance of being ejected as alien comm who goes shade first)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually again I can see alien players getting better with camo and it becoming more of an issue down the line, at present it's more of an annoyance than a giant issue however giving aliens a counter to the only counter they have (which costs them resources) to your ability, it does seem a bit off. As of yet Alien commanders are still learning half the tricks I mean its rare to see ink used or illusion or shifting structures but they will be and Camo will be very powerful one Alien commanders start really getting to grips with these extra abilities.
<!--quoteo(post=2045556:date=Dec 14 2012, 03:31 PM:name=nailertn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nailertn @ Dec 14 2012, 03:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045556"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some of you seem to live in this fairy tale where one scan every 30 seconds or so is all it takes because fights happen on one front only, where observatories come for free and follow marines around the map and where the second skulks are revealed their limbs get riveted to the floor rendering them immobile.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha,good one.
It is way too easy to harass stuff as a skulk when you have camo on.The fact that it can be used for straight attack is retarded.I'd say,remove camo completely and think of another upgrade or make it sort of like TF2 spy's cloak,giving ambushed prey at least SOME chance.
Another solution would be Camo becomming less effective the closer the marine is to you.So,if you are hidden mid range you can still be completely invisible and relocate yourself.Crawling in a -------> fashion close up close will not work,and at least camo would require some skill to use.
<!--quoteo(post=2045589:date=Dec 14 2012, 08:10 AM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Dec 14 2012, 08:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045589"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually I'd argue they are useful.
Celerity is good for hit and run style move and adrenaline will give far more energy to the attacker but its more useful on support classes like Gorge with Bile Bomb / healing spray and the Lurks expensive gas attacks. Onos can benefit from either really if played the right way.
Though again 3 hive locations is only to spawn instant Onos it doesn't stop players using their own resources on them and they can be rather effective with any combination of 2 evolution paths, again its all about knowing how to play them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Celerity is good for hit and run style movements which doesn't matter when you're trying to take a defended techpoint. That's my point, thank you.
It takes a gorge ~15s to run out of energy heal spraying. After that, the gorge heals at about a 2/3 rate for the next 15 seconds (compared to an adrenaline gorge), and then both types of gorges are even for however long after that. If a fight lasts 15s, there is no difference between a-gorge and gorge. If a fight lasts 30s, a normal gorge is about 84% as effective. If a fight lasts 60s, a normal gorge is about 90% as effective.
Now I'm not saying adrenaline can't be good (though celerity is clearly better for gorge) or that celerity can't be useful (but most of its usefulness is early game before leap/lerks/blink give aliens insane mobility anyway). The main complaint is that shade hives are somehow less effective than shift+crag at taking a defended tech point. I'm saying that only carapace really matters for taking a defended techpoint and that being shade instead of shift really doesn't matter in 2hive vs 3hivepub fights. The entire argument for camo opening in pubs is that marines never take a 2nd or 3rd chair because they can't afford to scan every room and lose a 15tres obs every time they lose a tech point fight. They don't have unlimited money and the aliens will show up with pres onos long before their jetpacks/exos.
<!--quoteo(post=2045613:date=Dec 14 2012, 09:19 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with camo 2 hive stays that your Fade/Onos will get ######ed up when pushing a defended position while your gorges will be only 50% as effective. Get as many information about the marines as you will. They are still able to turtle on 4 rts against 6 until they are have full upgrades and run a ######ing 10 Arc push to your hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is dead wrong. See my math in the previous post.
<!--quoteo(post=2045946:date=Dec 14 2012, 06:21 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 14 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Celerity is good for hit and run style movements which doesn't matter when you're trying to take a defended techpoint. That's my point, thank you.
Now I'm not saying adrenaline can't be good (though celerity is clearly better for gorge) or that celerity can't be useful (but most of its usefulness is early game before leap/lerks/blink give aliens insane mobility anyway). The main complaint is that shade hives are somehow less effective than shift+crag at taking a defended tech point. I'm saying that only carapace really matters for taking a defended techpoint and that being shade instead of shift really doesn't matter in 2hive vs 3hivepub fights. The entire argument for camo opening in pubs is that marines never take a 2nd or 3rd chair because they can't afford to scan every room and lose a 15tres obs every time they lose a tech point fight. They don't have unlimited money and the aliens will show up with pres onos long before their jetpacks/exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't heal spray that wins you the Marines tech point, it's Bile Bomb.
Adrenaline makes Bile Bomb more likely to level an entire emplacement with just one Gorge, as it increases the up-front damage they do in a massive AoE. Adrenaline+Carapace makes Gorges far, far better at doing what they're best at doing.
Besides that, Celerity is terrible for Gorges that are trying to assault. It doesn't work while Bile Bomb is doing damage, and you're already doing less damage without adrenaline.
And what, exactly, makes cloaking or silence so great for an assault gorge? Surprise attack at a location with an Obs? Or a silence effect that doesn't mask the Bile Bomb splash or obvious graphics?
I know that you know better than that Gorgeous, I just know you do.
EDIT: I will admit one thing though, if there's a nearby shift you might as well take celerity. That is definitely an exception.
<!--quoteo(post=2045955:date=Dec 14 2012, 07:51 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 07:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It isn't heal spray that wins you the Marines tech point, it's Bile Bomb.
Adrenaline makes Bile Bomb more likely to level an entire emplacement with just one Gorge, as it increases the up-front damage they do in a massive AoE. Adrenaline+Carapace makes Gorges far, far better at doing what they're best at doing.
Besides that, Celerity is terrible for Gorges that are trying to assault. It doesn't work while Bile Bomb is doing damage, and you're already doing less damage without adrenaline.
And what, exactly, makes cloaking or silence so great for an assault gorge? Surprise attack at a location with an Obs? Or a silence effect that doesn't mask the Bile Bomb splash or obvious graphics?
I know that you know better than that Gorgeous, I just know you do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bilebomb is not what is needed to take a phasegate, it's other aliens to camp the phase and kill marines. You're not killing an entire base, you're killing a phase gate and therefore taking the area.
<!--quoteo(post=2045946:date=Dec 15 2012, 12:21 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 15 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Now I'm not saying adrenaline can't be good (though celerity is clearly better for gorge) or that celerity can't be useful (but most of its usefulness is early game before leap/lerks/blink give aliens insane mobility anyway). The main complaint is that shade hives are somehow less effective than shift+crag at taking a defended tech point. I'm saying that only carapace really matters for taking a defended techpoint and that being shade instead of shift really doesn't matter in 2hive vs 3hivepub fights. The entire argument for camo opening in pubs is that marines never take a 2nd or 3rd chair because they can't afford to scan every room and lose a 15tres obs every time they lose a tech point fight. They don't have unlimited money and the aliens will show up with pres onos long before their jetpacks/exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> again it depends on how you play it. An adrenaline gorge with bile bomb can deny areas for fair periods of time while still switching to heal people too. You are right to an extend though Shade hives don't give as good defence wise than other hives however its more about the individual commanders cunning and ability to set traps using whips and shade cover. Also if you're quick you can hide your initial hive and infestation forcing the enemy to wonder right in to be able to check its your hive location.
<!--quoteo(post=2045957:date=Dec 14 2012, 06:55 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 14 2012, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bilebomb is not what is needed to take a phasegate, it's other aliens to camp the phase and kill marines. You're not killing an entire base, you're killing a phase gate and therefore taking the area.
I can't tell if you're serious or trolling Gorgeous. How, or why, do you 'camp' a phase gate when the second a Marine comes through you get tossed across the room as a skulk? Marines respawn so fast that you either kill the phase, or die trying in most situations. You're right that you'll <i>probably</i> need other players to help keep the Marines distracted, but Bile Bomb with Adrenaline will flat line the Phase without any more help than a distraction.
<!--quoteo(post=2045965:date=Dec 14 2012, 08:20 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 08:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045965"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't tell if you're serious or trolling Gorgeous. How, or why, do you 'camp' a phase gate when the second a Marine comes through you get tossed across the room as a skulk? Marines respawn so fast that you either kill the phase, or die trying in most situations. You're right that you'll <i>probably</i> need other players to help keep the Marines distracted, but Bile Bomb with Adrenaline will flat line the Phase without any more help than a distraction.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uhh... Have you ever played marines?
You kill the marines as they come through the phasegate. Yes, you get pushed back, but you can still kill marines as they phase in.
<!--quoteo(post=2045966:date=Dec 14 2012, 07:25 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 14 2012, 07:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045966"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uhh... Have you ever played marines?
You kill the marines as they come through the phasegate. Yes, you get pushed back, but you can still kill marines as they phase in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but I wouldn't really call it 'camping' either. Probably just a misunderstanding with your language. Either way, perhaps it speaks more to the gorge's awesomeness that it allows us to have such a different play style with a Gorge. I heal fairly rarely, and usually Bile Bomb in a Marines base under cover of Spores, angry Fades, or Onos. With them having Shift and Crag upgrades, healing is usually something I can fall back to do at a shift. Smart Onos shouldn't need a Gorge glued to their butt (especially one with low energy) while they're in the Marines base, although for a faster return <i>some</i> healing is mandatory.
I did some quick tests since I was interested in how quickly lifeforms kill phasegates...
JUST BILE vanilla: 21s adren: 17s
JUST SKULK: 22s
SKULK + BILE vanilla: ~10s adren: ~10s
From my testing, a single adrenaline gorge yielded about a 19% faster kill time for phasegates when compared to a single plain gorge. Interestingly enough, a skulk's anti structure dps is nearly the same as a bilebomb gorge's structure dps.
Also, it was clear that adrenaline has no impact on how fast you burn down a phase gate assuming you have at least 1 skulk with you. Energy did not come into play because the phase gate dies too quickly.
And lastly, if your goal is to simply burn down the phasegate then two skulks is about as effective at outright killing it. They're also faster, cheaper, and better against reinforcements. In my opinion, the gorge is only useful against lone phasegates for a) clearing mines and b) for healing the skulks trying to camp the phasegate. In any burn dps situation, a skulk would be the better choice.
<!--quoteo(post=2045957:date=Dec 15 2012, 11:55 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 15 2012, 11:55 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045957"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bilebomb is not what is needed to take a phasegate, it's other aliens to camp the phase and kill marines. You're not killing an entire base, you're killing a phase gate and therefore taking the area.
"assault gorge" lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So assault gorge with no bile bomb? Dont think that will work against a halfway co-ordinated marine side, sounds more like a fun pub strat. Better hope that base does not have IP's or an obs...as there are two other things you need to take down to stop more marines appearing. Sorry but that gorge either does not have Carapace (easy kill) or adren (cant heal that much for long) so his battle effectiveness is very limited compared to when he has both.
Camo is fine, l2a (learn to adapt) and have a strategy that does not revolve around massive map control but instead holding strategic points (like good war time commanders do) around the map (TECH POINTS) as aliens will need 3 to be at full strength. Worry less about how soon before you get weapons upgrades or SG's and make sure you deny that 3rd hive from ever going up. Camo against a decent side is a very risky strategy, your hoping no-one knows what to actually do to counter and that your side understands you must get 3 hives if you want to win, its not so much a res control game like normal but a tech/hive locality battle.
After a totally useless camo in most of the beta itis finally useful, it changes how a game is played, marines can easily win if they understand what they need to do and execute it but it also allows aliens to more easily deal with lone marines. Sorry but early map control should not be a marine area at all, not until after they have phase gates any time prior should be aliens chance to dominate. Camo finally addresses what a lack of mobility had brought into common place, early game marine res dominance and ignoring of tech points. Most games marines dont even really worry about holding a 2nd tech until they need it, focusing more on res nodes, veil is a prime example of this where most people focus on nano and not taking a 2nd tech point until they are ready to research jp's and exo's.
<!--quoteo(post=2045990:date=Dec 14 2012, 09:28 PM:name=hakenspit)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hakenspit @ Dec 14 2012, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045990"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So assault gorge with no bile bomb? Dont think that will work against a halfway co-ordinated marine side, sounds more like a fun pub strat. Better hope that base does not have IP's or an obs...as there are two other things you need to take down to stop more marines appearing. Sorry but that gorge either does not have Carapace (easy kill) or adren (cant heal that much for long) so his battle effectiveness is very limited compared to when he has both.
Camo is fine, l2a (learn to adapt) and have a strategy that does not revolve around massive map control but instead holding strategic points (like good war time commanders do) around the map (TECH POINTS) as aliens will need 3 to be at full strength. Worry less about how soon before you get weapons upgrades or SG's and make sure you deny that 3rd hive from ever going up. Camo against a decent side is a very risky strategy, your hoping no-one knows what to actually do to counter and that your side understands you must get 3 hives if you want to win, its not so much a res control game like normal but a tech/hive locality battle.
After a totally useless camo in most of the beta itis finally useful, it changes how a game is played, marines can easily win if they understand what they need to do and execute it but it also allows aliens to more easily deal with lone marines. Sorry but early map control should not be a marine area at all, not until after they have phase gates any time prior should be aliens chance to dominate. Camo finally addresses what a lack of mobility had brought into common place, early game marine res dominance and ignoring of tech points. Most games marines dont even really worry about holding a 2nd tech until they need it, focusing more on res nodes, veil is a prime example of this where most people focus on nano and not taking a 2nd tech point until they are ready to research jp's and exo's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go back and read my math about how much adrenaline helps a gorge. Or perhaps the entire thread. We're not talking about assaulting an entire marine base. We're talking about assaulting a forward obs + phasegate that marines have built to try and deny 3rd hive. If the marines are building an obs, phasegate, cc, and ips at every tech point then I think we're to the point where balance doesn't matter because the aliens are incompetent.
Please tell me how you plan to fight pres onos at 12 minutes if you're ignoring RTs (and thus, upgrades) in favor of locking down 3 techpoints.
<!--quoteo(post=2045994:date=Dec 14 2012, 08:37 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 14 2012, 08:37 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045994"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Please tell me how you plan to fight pres onos at 12 minutes if you're ignoring RTs (and thus, upgrades) in favor of locking down 3 techpoints.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't ignore them, you just don't build a vulnerable position like an in-between node <i>first</i>. Tech points come with nodes, nodes don't necessarily come with tech points. It's easier to justify things like an Obs at a tech point, which is where you want the most 'protection' versus cloaked units. Moving out from a 'safe' zone makes it easier to ping a nearby node that isn't in the tech point, thus securing it and hopefully protect it. When it's under attack, send two guys and ping. It's worth three to save a node, as long as you hold it. You can play defensively while still building up enough T.Res to research what you need, even I've been Marine commander enough to know that.
<!--quoteo(post=2046007:date=Dec 14 2012, 10:11 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 14 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You don't ignore them, you just don't build a vulnerable position like an in-between node <i>first</i>. Tech points come with nodes, nodes don't necessarily come with tech points. It's easier to justify things like an Obs at a tech point, which is where you want the most 'protection' versus cloaked units. Moving out from a 'safe' zone makes it easier to ping a nearby node that isn't in the tech point, thus securing it and hopefully protect it. When it's under attack, send two guys and ping. It's worth three to save a node, as long as you hold it. You can play defensively while still building up enough T.Res to research what you need, even I've been Marine commander enough to know that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If it were that simple then why can't marines hold 3 tech points and all of their RTs in every game?
<!--quoteo(post=2046054:date=Dec 15 2012, 06:16 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 15 2012, 06:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046054"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it were that simple then why can't marines hold 3 tech points and all of their RTs in every game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
because marines are ######ing morons who try to get 5 rts against cloaked aliens. This will Fail. always.
The time you realize you are up against cloak you normally have your "natural Hive" secured. So upon knowing that cloak is up, at least 2/3 of the marines go to one of the free hives, preferrably following a SC2 expand pattern. On the way the comm spends scans so you cant be ambushed. Inside the hive he scans again and you get obs and pg. Then most of the marines stay at the second hive while 2 or 3 def 1st hive and base. get obs in 1st hive. Comm gets mines and at least 4 guys get some to mine up the Hives and mainbase. Most mines should go to second hive which is closest to aliens. 1 or 2 guys try to get nodes between tech points. DON'T all run out of the hives, just defend. Defend. When aliens don't attack in massive pushes one or 2 should try to ninja down rts. Just run out of the hives in a direction where no alien might be and shoot the rts. You will die. But maybe you can take down rts which will help alot. You have to realize aliens will be tech starved and therefor have to rely more on higher lifeforms. So killing rts really hurts more. In the meantime Comm should focus on getting these upgrades.
This is the crucial time. If aliens do not manage to push the second hive, marines get too strong with weapon/armor upgrades. Then marines can slowly take more rts and then push once they have JPs and gls.
If I were like you guys say and shade first is a GG machine, so how come that all but a few games I played this weeks with shade first were lost by aliens?
The main reason for marines failing really are
1) People dont realize they HAVE to get a second tech point and in the end only 4 of 9 marines really participate in the push. 2) People dont just defend. small squads wander off -in good intentions of course- to kill rts, attack another hive even and so on. You have to realize: If there are 9 marines on the field, at least 7 have to be on defense at all times, very near to a pg to respond to massive attacks. If the aliens have any brains, there will be massive attacks because they know they loose without 3 hives.
On the adren thing for gorges: As a gorge in the time when you and your onos buddy attack the 3rd tech point, you will heal the onos and then bile the base while he charges in. As the onos is focussed so hard he cant stay inside long enough to do real damage to the Power/PG. He is only drawing attention from you while you can dps with bilebomb. Without Adren however you can only throw a few biles before onos retreats as you are low on adren from the getgo because of the healing. Also you are not able to heal up the onos as effectively because you are out of adren from biling. This is why a offensive hift is often times the key to taking heavily fortified marine bases.
I wont talk about the lerk's ability to help siege by non stop spores. Regenerating adren for spore runs is a pain without adren/shift und you basically need the double amount of lerks for the same impact.
<!--quoteo(post=2046123:date=Dec 15 2012, 04:10 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 15 2012, 04:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046123"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->because marines are ######ing morons who try to get 5 rts against cloaked aliens. This will Fail. always.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't often say it, but I 100% agree with you mate.
Clearly your anecdotal evidence supersedes all the experienced players posting about how broken it is. 100% agreeing with someone who is wrong is still 100% wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2046130:date=Dec 15 2012, 11:33 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 15 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clearly your anecdotal evidence supersedes all the experienced players posting about how broken it is. 100% agreeing with someone who is wrong is still 100% wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
who are these experianced players you are talking about?
In fact near every "experianced" player is of the opinion that shade first is weaker than the other chambers or at least an All in betting on the marine comm to fail.
btw. SC first in NS1 also was a troll chamber to kill noob marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2046130:date=Dec 15 2012, 11:33 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 15 2012, 11:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Clearly your anecdotal evidence supersedes all the experienced players posting about how broken it is. 100% agreeing with someone who is wrong is still 100% wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
Unlike a normal game you concede RT's and focus phase tech and on taking first a 2nd then a 3rd tech point, obs at each and continue to turtle/defend all three bases whilst you get some decent tech up.
Dont try to play the game like normal as shade requires a totally different approach to counter, move in groups slowly push and hold tech points not RT's.
When shade is first up 3rd hive is more than stomp, umbra and xenocide...its means crag and shift are able to be used in conjunction, which makes all aliens harder to kill.
People are stuck thinking about the game play in one way, and fail to realise how exposed shade leave aliens. Sure you have to wait longer to get your upgrades, shotties might have to wait a bit....but it will win you the game if you deny the third hive ever going up.
Its funny to watch an alien khamm try the strat against a marine team that knows what they need to do instead of cap res.
I enjoy playing against early camo, sure its a slower more unified game play but its fun to worry as you get the power up, then PG, OBS, Armoury up...only then do you feel "safe"...until you try to take the next tech point.
This game is about tech points just as much as res nodes....but people dont seem to realise this but its crucial to understand that when playing against camo first.
Third hive becomes as valuable...if not more so than the 2nd hive.
Unlike a normal game you concede RT's and focus phase tech and on taking first a 2nd then a 3rd tech point, obs at each and continue to turtle/defend all three bases whilst you get some decent tech up.
Dont try to play the game like normal as shade requires a totally different approach to counter, move in groups slowly push and hold tech points not RT's.
When shade is first up 3rd hive is more than stomp, umbra and xenocide...its means crag and shift are able to be used in conjunction, which makes all aliens harder to kill.
People are stuck thinking about the game play in one way, and fail to realise how exposed shade leave aliens. Sure you have to wait longer to get your upgrades, shotties might have to wait a bit....but it will win you the game if you deny the third hive ever going up.
Its funny to watch an alien khamm try the strat against a marine team that knows what they need to do instead of cap res.
I enjoy playing against early camo, sure its a slower more unified game play but its fun to worry as you get the power up, then PG, OBS, Armoury up...only then do you feel "safe"...until you try to take the next tech point.
This game is about tech points just as much as res nodes....but people dont seem to realise this but its crucial to understand that when playing against camo first.
Third hive becomes as valuable...if not more so than the 2nd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this.
You know that he actually does? He gets invisible too and also is primary melee? 0.5 seconds isn't enough to warn the marine long before. But it is enough to compensate for the network delay.
Just to clarify my question: I don't have a problem with camo in NS2, I don't think it's OP or something, but I think that you lost you cloak in NS1 when you started moving... that would be a possible fix. Allthough it would make camo useless. =)
Another question: before they fixed camo to 0% visibility: I thought that you were only slightly visible when moving?
Maybe that would be a fix (nerf, buff, I always get them wrong) if camo is really op (proven by statistics): 0% visibility while sitting/sitting & regenerating, slightly visible when moving.
But as I said, I don't really have a problem with camo: you can sit around hidden as a skulk/lerk everywhere and bases have obs most of the times.
/me is a pub player btw
2) Adren+Cara gorge is the best friend of any onos. Not possible with Shade first
3) If you dont get 2 Hives as marines it is GG anyways, regardless which chaber aliens went first
What Im saying is that with scan and obs against camo the odds are as marine biased as they will ever get in NS2. Aliens have no upgrade and cant ambush.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually with Camo + adrenaline then you can set up a gorge repair station where the Onos runs too and is healed up while in stealth by a hiding gorge who sprays from cover and then vanishes again.
Also it is only GG if it goes 3 hives to 1 command if its 2 hives to 1 command its possibly to create a very long drawn out game and even turn it round. Heck I've seen a 3 command point team lose due to their commander not moving infantry portals so they are spread out.
Actually Aliens can still Ambush it just requires you to trigger the ambush earlier by having someone infiltrate the reinforcement routes and tag the marines
<!--quoteo(post=2045566:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:41 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 14 2012, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045566"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->1) it really doesn't matter. The two extra seconds it takes to run back to the hive doesn't matter. Celerity does nothing for trying to run away or engage because you lose all your speed when you take a bullet.
2) adrenaline is really not necessary for anything, a cara gorge is 90% as effective as an adren-cara gorge
3) yet another reason why camo is so broke in pubs. It gives aliens a huge force multiplier and can frequently outright deny marines 2nd chair because marines can't spam scans all around the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not really as a gorge with bile bomb and adrenaline is a portable healing station and high powered mortar in one while carapace would let it survive better it wouldn't have as much combat ability.
Having used adrenaline on a gorge with bile bomb the fact they can melt Exos if played well shows how powerful that combo can be compared to the lower firing rate and only marginal extra survivability coming from carapace.
<!--quoteo(post=2045568:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:43 PM:name=MaximumSquid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaximumSquid @ Dec 14 2012, 12:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045568"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u><b>Shrimm:</b></u>
Stay in large groups
As you push into a room ask for a scan <i>(it's worth while if your whole team is there)</i> and clear it out
If your team is holding a forward armory outside a hive or if you have phase it's very hard for camo aliens to really do anything about it until they get a 2nd hive
You must punish fast camo in the early game while you can
If early camo is skipped it is super unlikely that the aliens grab it as a second upgrade since shift + crag is the better combo usually<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Too easy to abuse this move. I've forced the enemy too before by getting large groups to beacon to one area when the main attack took place else where. The option to be able to push with multiple groups needs to be there as it gives aliens the ability to be able to push two fronts far more easily with Camo. Remember the Aliens only need to hold your team whole team and can still push and expand while holding you steady
<!--quoteo(post=2045574:date=Dec 14 2012, 12:52 PM:name=ninjabusdriver)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ninjabusdriver @ Dec 14 2012, 12:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045574"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I see countless alien teams who fail to capitalize on the advantage of Camo and lose. It's quite counterable by staying in larger squads of marines, and getting armor 1. The more armor upgrades the marine team gets, the less useful camo is. If marines are able to capture one of the tech points on the map, aliens are going to have a pretty hard time of it when higher life forms come out and aren't very much helped by camo/silence.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Expect to see this change quite a bit in the future as people get used to the advantages of Camo including .
1) Denying the enemy knowledge of your expansion plans, its expensive to an extent but you can hide your base and all your expansion.
2) Stealth attacks. with 2 points you can shift useful structures into the enemy base (or right outside it) so you only need 1 shade up in the enemy base they they can't see it coming, especially evil for filling the enemy base full of whips without them knowing or spotting them incoming.
Most people use it as a crutch to make up for lack of actual stealth abilities. and while I'm no Ninja with Cloak I can walk right by the enemy and not need to stop and hide and wait while they pass, it actually adds far more mobility to the aliens really as they don't lose time having to avoid patrols. Also you can harass so much easier with cloak especially as a well positioned Lurk able to attack from just out of obs range.
Played well Camo is very powerful not because of the pushing power as it doesn't gain this but in both the information you can get on the enemy without them realising, and the info you can hide from them, forcing them to run into traps they couldn't see etc. It's a very powerful and underestimated alien too creating a scenario that can be won just as easily as any other 2 hive scenario, maybe more so if people truly learn how useful it is and how much stealth with for example healing can create very rapid hit and run attacks from 2 sides. With preserving higher creature spawns then the 3rd hive isn't needed as people can personal resource the higher life forms.
I've been stuck on teams that were unable to leverage cammo due to this (and early failures)
Get as many information about the marines as you will. They are still able to turtle on 4 rts against 6 until they are have full upgrades and run a ######ing 10 Arc push to your hive.
You will not break a well defended Hive location without shift+crag combo.
It was said before:
If marines play as usual against camo they get ######ed up hard by aliens.
If marines adept and go to Turtle mode on 3 tech points aliens cant do much.
Shade first is a All-In strategy.
As all All-Ins it can surely win you a game and make it look like marines never had a chance.
But All-In strategies always have a hard counter which when apllied correctly make aliens loose in a pityful and frustrating way.
Look at my posts here in the forums, I agree that Alien is OP at the moment. And I really dont think this OP generally is a learn to play Issue.
but in this case Shade first is by far not OP and the reason for people believing it is actually IS a L2P issue. Once Marines adept to Shade first it£s basically GG.
If you dont believe me join the Yo clan server in the evening when the regulars are playing. Go Alien, run for comm and go shade first. You will realize that a decent marine team will struggle less against Shade first than against other openings if the game goes on for more than 10 minutes. (and you have a good chance of being ejected as alien comm who goes shade first)
Well if you go cloak 1st you lock yourself into a hit and run approach and you either go with carapace and regen and make up for the gorge issue with healing plants or you get adrenaline and celerity and adapt by doing shorter attack runs before retreating, it doesn't screw you over if you adapt your play.
<!--quoteo(post=2045613:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Get as many information about the marines as you will. They are still able to turtle on 4 rts against 6 until they are have full upgrades and run a ######ing 10 Arc push to your hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you can turtle their base, with say a lurk on many maps being able to attack items such as the power node from outside of observatory radius
<!--quoteo(post=2045613:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You will not break a well defended Hive location without shift+crag combo.
It was said before:
If marines play as usual against camo they get ######ed up hard by aliens.
If marines adept and go to Turtle mode on 3 tech points aliens cant do much.
Shade first is a All-In strategy.
As all All-Ins it can surely win you a game and make it look like marines never had a chance.
But All-In strategies always have a hard counter which when apllied correctly make aliens loose in a pityful and frustrating way.
Look at my posts here in the forums, I agree that Alien is OP at the moment. And I really dont think this OP generally is a learn to play Issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not saying camo is some super OP strategy what I am saying is there needs to be something done as its just not that great and enjoyable to vs not when its the first hive up
<!--quoteo(post=2045613:date=Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Dec 14 2012, 02:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2045613"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->but in this case Shade first is by far not OP and the reason for people believing it is actually IS a L2P issue. Once Marines adept to Shade first it£s basically GG.
If you dont believe me join the Yo clan server in the evening when the regulars are playing. Go Alien, run for comm and go shade first. You will realize that a decent marine team will struggle less against Shade first than against other openings if the game goes on for more than 10 minutes. (and you have a good chance of being ejected as alien comm who goes shade first)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually again I can see alien players getting better with camo and it becoming more of an issue down the line, at present it's more of an annoyance than a giant issue however giving aliens a counter to the only counter they have (which costs them resources) to your ability, it does seem a bit off. As of yet Alien commanders are still learning half the tricks I mean its rare to see ink used or illusion or shifting structures but they will be and Camo will be very powerful one Alien commanders start really getting to grips with these extra abilities.
broken? seriously?
this game is simply unplayable now.
Haha,good one.
It is way too easy to harass stuff as a skulk when you have camo on.The fact that it can be used for straight attack is retarded.I'd say,remove camo completely and think of another upgrade or make it sort of like TF2 spy's cloak,giving ambushed prey at least SOME chance.
Another solution would be Camo becomming less effective the closer the marine is to you.So,if you are hidden mid range you can still be completely invisible and relocate yourself.Crawling in a -------> fashion close up close will not work,and at least camo would require some skill to use.
Celerity is good for hit and run style move and adrenaline will give far more energy to the attacker but its more useful on support classes like Gorge with Bile Bomb / healing spray and the Lurks expensive gas attacks.
Onos can benefit from either really if played the right way.
Though again 3 hive locations is only to spawn instant Onos it doesn't stop players using their own resources on them and they can be rather effective with any combination of 2 evolution paths, again its all about knowing how to play them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Celerity is good for hit and run style movements which doesn't matter when you're trying to take a defended techpoint. That's my point, thank you.
It takes a gorge ~15s to run out of energy heal spraying. After that, the gorge heals at about a 2/3 rate for the next 15 seconds (compared to an adrenaline gorge), and then both types of gorges are even for however long after that. If a fight lasts 15s, there is no difference between a-gorge and gorge. If a fight lasts 30s, a normal gorge is about 84% as effective. If a fight lasts 60s, a normal gorge is about 90% as effective.
Now I'm not saying adrenaline can't be good (though celerity is clearly better for gorge) or that celerity can't be useful (but most of its usefulness is early game before leap/lerks/blink give aliens insane mobility anyway). The main complaint is that shade hives are somehow less effective than shift+crag at taking a defended tech point. I'm saying that only carapace really matters for taking a defended techpoint and that being shade instead of shift really doesn't matter in 2hive vs 3hivepub fights. The entire argument for camo opening in pubs is that marines never take a 2nd or 3rd chair because they can't afford to scan every room and lose a 15tres obs every time they lose a tech point fight. They don't have unlimited money and the aliens will show up with pres onos long before their jetpacks/exos.
Get as many information about the marines as you will. They are still able to turtle on 4 rts against 6 until they are have full upgrades and run a ######ing 10 Arc push to your hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is dead wrong. See my math in the previous post.
Now I'm not saying adrenaline can't be good (though celerity is clearly better for gorge) or that celerity can't be useful (but most of its usefulness is early game before leap/lerks/blink give aliens insane mobility anyway). The main complaint is that shade hives are somehow less effective than shift+crag at taking a defended tech point. I'm saying that only carapace really matters for taking a defended techpoint and that being shade instead of shift really doesn't matter in 2hive vs 3hivepub fights. The entire argument for camo opening in pubs is that marines never take a 2nd or 3rd chair because they can't afford to scan every room and lose a 15tres obs every time they lose a tech point fight. They don't have unlimited money and the aliens will show up with pres onos long before their jetpacks/exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't heal spray that wins you the Marines tech point, it's Bile Bomb.
Adrenaline makes Bile Bomb more likely to level an entire emplacement with just one Gorge, as it increases the up-front damage they do in a massive AoE. Adrenaline+Carapace makes Gorges far, far better at doing what they're best at doing.
Besides that, Celerity is terrible for Gorges that are trying to assault. It doesn't work while Bile Bomb is doing damage, and you're already doing less damage without adrenaline.
And what, exactly, makes cloaking or silence so great for an assault gorge? Surprise attack at a location with an Obs? Or a silence effect that doesn't mask the Bile Bomb splash or obvious graphics?
I know that you know better than that Gorgeous, I just know you do.
EDIT: I will admit one thing though, if there's a nearby shift you might as well take celerity. That is definitely an exception.
Adrenaline makes Bile Bomb more likely to level an entire emplacement with just one Gorge, as it increases the up-front damage they do in a massive AoE. Adrenaline+Carapace makes Gorges far, far better at doing what they're best at doing.
Besides that, Celerity is terrible for Gorges that are trying to assault. It doesn't work while Bile Bomb is doing damage, and you're already doing less damage without adrenaline.
And what, exactly, makes cloaking or silence so great for an assault gorge? Surprise attack at a location with an Obs? Or a silence effect that doesn't mask the Bile Bomb splash or obvious graphics?
I know that you know better than that Gorgeous, I just know you do.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bilebomb is not what is needed to take a phasegate, it's other aliens to camp the phase and kill marines. You're not killing an entire base, you're killing a phase gate and therefore taking the area.
"assault gorge" lol
again it depends on how you play it. An adrenaline gorge with bile bomb can deny areas for fair periods of time while still switching to heal people too.
You are right to an extend though Shade hives don't give as good defence wise than other hives however its more about the individual commanders cunning and ability to set traps using whips and shade cover. Also if you're quick you can hide your initial hive and infestation forcing the enemy to wonder right in to be able to check its your hive location.
Basically Camo is this games Red alert tank rush
"assault gorge" lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can't tell if you're serious or trolling Gorgeous. How, or why, do you 'camp' a phase gate when the second a Marine comes through you get tossed across the room as a skulk? Marines respawn so fast that you either kill the phase, or die trying in most situations. You're right that you'll <i>probably</i> need other players to help keep the Marines distracted, but Bile Bomb with Adrenaline will flat line the Phase without any more help than a distraction.
Uhh... Have you ever played marines?
You kill the marines as they come through the phasegate. Yes, you get pushed back, but you can still kill marines as they phase in.
You kill the marines as they come through the phasegate. Yes, you get pushed back, but you can still kill marines as they phase in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, but I wouldn't really call it 'camping' either. Probably just a misunderstanding with your language. Either way, perhaps it speaks more to the gorge's awesomeness that it allows us to have such a different play style with a Gorge. I heal fairly rarely, and usually Bile Bomb in a Marines base under cover of Spores, angry Fades, or Onos. With them having Shift and Crag upgrades, healing is usually something I can fall back to do at a shift. Smart Onos shouldn't need a Gorge glued to their butt (especially one with low energy) while they're in the Marines base, although for a faster return <i>some</i> healing is mandatory.
EDIT: Bad punctuation. ^_^
JUST BILE
vanilla: 21s
adren: 17s
JUST SKULK:
22s
SKULK + BILE
vanilla: ~10s
adren: ~10s
From my testing, a single adrenaline gorge yielded about a 19% faster kill time for phasegates when compared to a single plain gorge. Interestingly enough, a skulk's anti structure dps is nearly the same as a bilebomb gorge's structure dps.
Also, it was clear that adrenaline has no impact on how fast you burn down a phase gate assuming you have at least 1 skulk with you. Energy did not come into play because the phase gate dies too quickly.
And lastly, if your goal is to simply burn down the phasegate then two skulks is about as effective at outright killing it. They're also faster, cheaper, and better against reinforcements. In my opinion, the gorge is only useful against lone phasegates for a) clearing mines and b) for healing the skulks trying to camp the phasegate. In any burn dps situation, a skulk would be the better choice.
"assault gorge" lol<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So assault gorge with no bile bomb? Dont think that will work against a halfway co-ordinated marine side, sounds more like a fun pub strat.
Better hope that base does not have IP's or an obs...as there are two other things you need to take down to stop more marines appearing.
Sorry but that gorge either does not have Carapace (easy kill) or adren (cant heal that much for long) so his battle effectiveness is very limited compared to when he has both.
Camo is fine, l2a (learn to adapt) and have a strategy that does not revolve around massive map control but instead holding strategic points (like good war time commanders do) around the map (TECH POINTS) as aliens will need 3 to be at full strength.
Worry less about how soon before you get weapons upgrades or SG's and make sure you deny that 3rd hive from ever going up.
Camo against a decent side is a very risky strategy, your hoping no-one knows what to actually do to counter and that your side understands you must get 3 hives if you want to win, its not so much a res control game like normal but a tech/hive locality battle.
After a totally useless camo in most of the beta itis finally useful, it changes how a game is played, marines can easily win if they understand what they need to do and execute it but it also allows aliens to more easily deal with lone marines.
Sorry but early map control should not be a marine area at all, not until after they have phase gates any time prior should be aliens chance to dominate.
Camo finally addresses what a lack of mobility had brought into common place, early game marine res dominance and ignoring of tech points.
Most games marines dont even really worry about holding a 2nd tech until they need it, focusing more on res nodes, veil is a prime example of this where most people focus on nano and not taking a 2nd tech point until they are ready to research jp's and exo's.
Better hope that base does not have IP's or an obs...as there are two other things you need to take down to stop more marines appearing.
Sorry but that gorge either does not have Carapace (easy kill) or adren (cant heal that much for long) so his battle effectiveness is very limited compared to when he has both.
Camo is fine, l2a (learn to adapt) and have a strategy that does not revolve around massive map control but instead holding strategic points (like good war time commanders do) around the map (TECH POINTS) as aliens will need 3 to be at full strength.
Worry less about how soon before you get weapons upgrades or SG's and make sure you deny that 3rd hive from ever going up.
Camo against a decent side is a very risky strategy, your hoping no-one knows what to actually do to counter and that your side understands you must get 3 hives if you want to win, its not so much a res control game like normal but a tech/hive locality battle.
After a totally useless camo in most of the beta itis finally useful, it changes how a game is played, marines can easily win if they understand what they need to do and execute it but it also allows aliens to more easily deal with lone marines.
Sorry but early map control should not be a marine area at all, not until after they have phase gates any time prior should be aliens chance to dominate.
Camo finally addresses what a lack of mobility had brought into common place, early game marine res dominance and ignoring of tech points.
Most games marines dont even really worry about holding a 2nd tech until they need it, focusing more on res nodes, veil is a prime example of this where most people focus on nano and not taking a 2nd tech point until they are ready to research jp's and exo's.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Go back and read my math about how much adrenaline helps a gorge. Or perhaps the entire thread. We're not talking about assaulting an entire marine base. We're talking about assaulting a forward obs + phasegate that marines have built to try and deny 3rd hive. If the marines are building an obs, phasegate, cc, and ips at every tech point then I think we're to the point where balance doesn't matter because the aliens are incompetent.
Please tell me how you plan to fight pres onos at 12 minutes if you're ignoring RTs (and thus, upgrades) in favor of locking down 3 techpoints.
You don't ignore them, you just don't build a vulnerable position like an in-between node <i>first</i>. Tech points come with nodes, nodes don't necessarily come with tech points. It's easier to justify things like an Obs at a tech point, which is where you want the most 'protection' versus cloaked units. Moving out from a 'safe' zone makes it easier to ping a nearby node that isn't in the tech point, thus securing it and hopefully protect it. When it's under attack, send two guys and ping. It's worth three to save a node, as long as you hold it. You can play defensively while still building up enough T.Res to research what you need, even I've been Marine commander enough to know that.
If it were that simple then why can't marines hold 3 tech points and all of their RTs in every game?
because marines are ######ing morons who try to get 5 rts against cloaked aliens.
This will Fail. always.
The time you realize you are up against cloak you normally have your "natural Hive" secured.
So upon knowing that cloak is up, at least 2/3 of the marines go to one of the free hives, preferrably following a SC2 expand pattern. On the way the comm spends scans so you cant be ambushed.
Inside the hive he scans again and you get obs and pg.
Then most of the marines stay at the second hive while 2 or 3 def 1st hive and base. get obs in 1st hive.
Comm gets mines and at least 4 guys get some to mine up the Hives and mainbase. Most mines should go to second hive which is closest to aliens.
1 or 2 guys try to get nodes between tech points. DON'T all run out of the hives, just defend.
Defend.
When aliens don't attack in massive pushes one or 2 should try to ninja down rts. Just run out of the hives in a direction where no alien might be and shoot the rts. You will die. But maybe you can take down rts which will help alot.
You have to realize aliens will be tech starved and therefor have to rely more on higher lifeforms. So killing rts really hurts more.
In the meantime Comm should focus on getting these upgrades.
This is the crucial time. If aliens do not manage to push the second hive, marines get too strong with weapon/armor upgrades. Then marines can slowly take more rts and then push once they have JPs and gls.
If I were like you guys say and shade first is a GG machine, so how come that all but a few games I played this weeks with shade first were lost by aliens?
The main reason for marines failing really are
1) People dont realize they HAVE to get a second tech point and in the end only 4 of 9 marines really participate in the push.
2) People dont just defend. small squads wander off -in good intentions of course- to kill rts, attack another hive even and so on. You have to realize: If there are 9 marines on the field, at least 7 have to be on defense at all times, very near to a pg to respond to massive attacks. If the aliens have any brains, there will be massive attacks because they know they loose without 3 hives.
On the adren thing for gorges:
As a gorge in the time when you and your onos buddy attack the 3rd tech point, you will heal the onos and then bile the base while he charges in. As the onos is focussed so hard he cant stay inside long enough to do real damage to the Power/PG. He is only drawing attention from you while you can dps with bilebomb.
Without Adren however you can only throw a few biles before onos retreats as you are low on adren from the getgo because of the healing.
Also you are not able to heal up the onos as effectively because you are out of adren from biling.
This is why a offensive hift is often times the key to taking heavily fortified marine bases.
I wont talk about the lerk's ability to help siege by non stop spores. Regenerating adren for spore runs is a pain without adren/shift und you basically need the double amount of lerks for the same impact.
This will Fail. always.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't often say it, but I 100% agree with you mate.
who are these experianced players you are talking about?
In fact near every "experianced" player is of the opinion that shade first is weaker than the other chambers or at least an All in betting on the marine comm to fail.
btw. SC first in NS1 also was a troll chamber to kill noob marines.
sounds like youve lost your argument