Looking good! So far NS2 mappers have been really shy putting big ventilation systems on maps. This is odd because almost every popular NS1 map had really big and useful ventilation systems, just think Origin, Metal, Eclipse or Tanith for example. Vents should give aliens advantage over marines in mobility, we really haven't seen that in NS2.
Though, I have to say, that Generator looks like really bad hive to start. Just look how far it is from rest of tech points. You should somehow make Generator and Ventilation closer. However, if you want to isolate Generator from rest of map, at least make second RT closer to hive. Aux RT to That One Hallway.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited December 2012
Just a quick little update, since I've been telling people that the next release will be coming soon.
All layout changes and new vents have been implemented, and plenty of temporary cover props have been dumped all over the place, but I was running into some very high draw calls in the corner locations of the map, so I am implementing some quick and rough occlusion geometry. Wrapping the whole map does take some time, however, so I'm expecting to release the next revision somewhere in the middle of this coming week.
Now back to wrapping...
<i>EDIT: Well, this is going faster than I expected. I've wrapped everything except Ventilation Access, Ventilation (hive), Shipping Tunnels, and the vents. Barring unforeseen problems I may be able to release a little sooner than I expected.</i>
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
i hope you add a lot of vents! also, will you make it a 5 techpoint map? for me thats the magical number. enough for both teams to get tier 2 (ok tier 3 is not really defined for marines and not fully implemented for aliens). my advice would be, make central a double res point, with a lot of vent entrances and the same long corridors as we had in ns1. so it would be easy for both teams to attack central / difficult to defend (high risk, high benefit). i like your layout so far, i hope you will be able to capture the feeling the old ns_caged had :)
I think the classic tech point layout has worked pretty well for veil. That really is the thing that makes it an NS1 map, I would rather that the retro maps retain that retro feel rather than being transformed into a 5 tech point NS2 map.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2046222:date=Dec 15 2012, 06:16 PM:name=Sewlek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sewlek @ Dec 15 2012, 06:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046222"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i hope you add a lot of vents! also, will you make it a 5 techpoint map? for me thats the magical number. enough for both teams to get tier 2 (ok tier 3 is not really defined for marines and not fully implemented for aliens). my advice would be, make central a double res point, with a lot of vent entrances and the same long corridors as we had in ns1. so it would be easy for both teams to attack central / difficult to defend (high risk, high benefit). i like your layout so far, i hope you will be able to capture the feeling the old ns_caged had :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did re-work and add a few vents, and the map has 5 TPs for now - though the 5th TP is Central Processing so that won't be a double res node location. I'm "officially" still undecided, and testing will have to prove whether Central Processing works better as either TP or double res node location. I feel that trying to add a 5th TP on the rim of the map so Central Processing can be a double res node location would mean such an overhaul of the layout that the map just wouldn't be Caged anymore.
Layout as it is right now (not yet on the Workshop) below. I'm having some difficulty at the moment, as it looks like I have a Commander Camera hidden away somewhere screwing up my commander view, and I can't seem to find it, preventing me from releasing it on the Workshop. In commander view, the camera drops down to very close to the ground in the southern half of the map. I removed all Commander Cameras from the map, but it still does this. I expected the commander view to not work at all if there are no Commander Camera entities in the map, so I figured there's one hidden away somewhere. I hope I can figure out whether it's an errant Commander Camera or something else at play very soon, so I can release.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I've been searching for that elusive Commander Camera entity, but I just can't seem to find any. Does anyone know if there is a way to list all entities used in the map and their coordinates? I'd love for something like this to exist:
With coordinates and the name of the Location entity that the entity is inside listed, each one selectable of course. I may have to ask this function for christmas. ;)
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Earlier today Hugh interviewed me while we played ns2_caged (a somewhat bugged, more recent version than the current Workshop release), and the NS2HD video is now up! Thanks to Hugh and Burdock for allowing me to showcase the map in this early stage. :)
<!--quoteo(post=2046226:date=Dec 15 2012, 11:48 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Dec 15 2012, 11:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046226"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the classic tech point layout has worked pretty well for veil. That really is the thing that makes it an NS1 map, I would rather that the retro maps retain that retro feel rather than being transformed into a 5 tech point NS2 map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't personally want all the NS1 remake maps to be 4 techpoint maps. I personally quite dislike veil because of it.
If aliens didn't just sort of get nano grid for free it would be really hard to play that map out because of the SUPER long res point distances for cysting. That map is successful on a knifes edge.
nadyliJoin Date: 2007-11-01Member: 62791Members, Squad Five Blue
If you're going for non-ns1 approach to techpoints could you provide us earlier version of the map that could support it. No need for textures/anything (other people could do that, with your permission of course), I just know people that prefer the 4 techpoint system (myself included) and could really enjoy this map that way.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited December 2012
I fixed the Commander Camera issue: it was a bug in my brain and not in the game/editor. :D I assumed the Commander Camera entity directly determined the height of the camera in-game, but after a lot of fiddling I suddenly realized that overview.exe not only makes a graphical overview, but also a file with a mysterious "heightmap"-like .hmp extension.
tl;dr: I derped, but I'm okay now. :} I hope mappers who aren't yet familiar with Commander Cameras and overviews might learn from my shameful mistakes.
Anyways, I will release a new version of Caged on the Steam Workshop momentarily, and here's another progress video and brief changelog of the most notable changes:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/x-UVvBf3WXQ"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x-UVvBf3WXQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center> CHANGELOG o Changed the layout of the exits in Marine Start; now two separate exits. o Added Break Room corridor, connecting Monitoring to Central Processing. o Moved Auxiliary Generator a little southward and shrank down Shipping Tunnels and Upper Shipping Access, and added a shortcut between Aux Gen and Shipping. o Removed the res node in Shipping Tunnels. o Added a "chamber" to the middle of That One Hallway as well as a ton of vents and some temporary props for cover; hopefully easier to defend for aliens now. o Redesigned Purification Station, moved the res node. o Removed the corridor connecting Ventilation Access to the back of Central Processing. o Moved the catwalk and ramp in Upper Sewer, and added more cover in the tunnel connecting it to Lower Sewer. o Added a lot of cover all throughout he map. o Added more vents all over the map, especially near generator hive. o Added a texture explaining the status of the map to the ready room, all tech points, and all resource node locations.
<!--quoteo(post=2046751:date=Dec 16 2012, 07:51 PM:name=nadyli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nadyli @ Dec 16 2012, 07:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're going for non-ns1 approach to techpoints could you provide us earlier version of the map that could support it. No need for textures/anything (other people could do that, with your permission of course), I just know people that prefer the 4 techpoint system (myself included) and could really enjoy this map that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I do eventually choose to make it a 5TP map, I'm willing to consider releasing a 4TP/2xres version as well.
Hello, I played earlier today on KKG3. Was comm game one (where guy got stuck because he wedged himself in corner of sewer building the observatory) and we hammered aliens with jetpacks. The second game i was aliens. From the marine side it felt pretty good. I did notice that we pushed hard when scanning, suggesting aliens may need more nooks and crannies for cover. Textures might help the aliens blend in a bit, but it seemed like they had no chance when my team knew where they were - more then on other maps. The game was fairly even for the first bit. Its hard to say whether or not it was terribly OP with the JP because when we did push hard i was scanning and spamming meds+ammo which with a little luck / skilled team (particularly since they had a shade hive) you usually stomp. My team got stuffed on a couple occasions when i wasn't scanning/dropping stuff. When comm i think there was 1 real push on the bottom left tech point, other then that there wasn't much offensive pressure on my tech points. When i played Aliens as onos i did get chased down by a JP from their start to center hive, it felt a little bit far to chase, but i'm a mediocre onos so its happened before on other maps. From the alien perspective the marine bases felt a little harder than other maps. Usually there is an angle you can bombard in with a little cover or the power node vulnerable from the other room. On this map the tech points (top right and bottom left) felt dug in. We couldn't seem to hit them except by forcing a beacon or large distraction at one base, then taking the 'real' target out. Its hard to talk balance based on 2 rounds. But aliens probably need a little more cover and ambush spots or more vents and alt routes to engage from. If it is still too easy for marines then maybe tech point power needs to be a little more vulnerable letting advanced aliens like onos hit and escape and make gorge harass more viable. The map may be more fun with the power not getting cheesed, or it may make it harder to turn the game around with it protected in the back. Balance is a bit uncomfortable to talk about since I've played literally 2 rounds of the map and it went marines 1 aliens 1.
TLDR: felt a little bit marine slanted (but based on 2 rounds of play so hardly conclusive) - possibly due to large areas for JP, shooting lanes/lack of cover, and/or tech power being tough to harass.
<!--quoteo(post=2046270:date=Dec 15 2012, 06:31 PM:name=Flaterectomy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flaterectomy @ Dec 15 2012, 06:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been searching for that elusive Commander Camera entity, but I just can't seem to find any. Does anyone know if there is a way to list all entities used in the map and their coordinates? I'd love for something like this to exist:
With coordinates and the name of the Location entity that the entity is inside listed, each one selectable of course. I may have to ask this function for christmas. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2048503:date=Dec 20 2012, 01:28 PM:name=JimWest)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JimWest @ Dec 20 2012, 01:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2048503"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How did you get those statistics window?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I need this prop for the Upper Sewer, Lower Sewer and Sewer hive locations. What I'm looking for specifically is that lava prop, but rather than lava it needs to be somewhat murky water (Caged takes place on a space ship - or construction vessel - that hasn't been in proper use for a while, so rather than raw and disgusting sewage, I'm imagining the sewers to be full of more water than waste). And it shouldn't be that lit-up, of course. If possible, the water needs to flow a bit faster than the lava does in this prop. Perhaps I really do need an entirely new model. :}
Is there anyone out there who could help me out with this? You can reply here, or hit me up on Steam - just search for Flaterectomy, there aren't that many. ;)
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2051921:date=Dec 27 2012, 08:22 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 27 2012, 08:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051921"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Will it be acceptable that you can't swim in it? Swimming doesn't work in NS2 yet for any "thing"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I'll be placing the prop underneath grating.
FlaterectomyNetherlandistanJoin Date: 2005-02-03Member: 39643Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--quoteo(post=2051384:date=Dec 26 2012, 06:40 PM:name=Flaterectomy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Flaterectomy @ Dec 26 2012, 06:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051384"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Calling all modelers! Well, one should be enough. ;) In fact, what I need right now is perhaps more a re-texturing of an existing model:
I need this prop for the Upper Sewer, Lower Sewer and Sewer hive locations. What I'm looking for specifically is that lava prop, but rather than lava it needs to be somewhat murky water (Caged takes place on a space ship - or construction vessel - that hasn't been in proper use for a while, so rather than raw and disgusting sewage, I'm imagining the sewers to be full of more water than waste). And it shouldn't be that lit-up, of course. If possible, the water needs to flow a bit faster than the lava does in this prop. Perhaps I really do need an entirely new model. :}
Is there anyone out there who could help me out with this? You can reply here, or hit me up on Steam - just search for Flaterectomy, there aren't that many. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm bumping my own post here, as I am still yearning for a moving water prop. :}
Comments
Though, I have to say, that Generator looks like really bad hive to start. Just look how far it is from rest of tech points. You should somehow make Generator and Ventilation closer. However, if you want to isolate Generator from rest of map, at least make second RT closer to hive. Aux RT to That One Hallway.
Stability -> Gen -> Aux gen room by room and you've just cut a huge unnecessary chunk of a map out and created a more functional layout.
All layout changes and new vents have been implemented, and plenty of temporary cover props have been dumped all over the place, but I was running into some very high draw calls in the corner locations of the map, so I am implementing some quick and rough occlusion geometry. Wrapping the whole map does take some time, however, so I'm expecting to release the next revision somewhere in the middle of this coming week.
Now back to wrapping...
<i>EDIT: Well, this is going faster than I expected. I've wrapped everything except Ventilation Access, Ventilation (hive), Shipping Tunnels, and the vents. Barring unforeseen problems I may be able to release a little sooner than I expected.</i>
I did re-work and add a few vents, and the map has 5 TPs for now - though the 5th TP is Central Processing so that won't be a double res node location. I'm "officially" still undecided, and testing will have to prove whether Central Processing works better as either TP or double res node location. I feel that trying to add a 5th TP on the rim of the map so Central Processing can be a double res node location would mean such an overhaul of the layout that the map just wouldn't be Caged anymore.
Layout as it is right now (not yet on the Workshop) below. I'm having some difficulty at the moment, as it looks like I have a Commander Camera hidden away somewhere screwing up my commander view, and I can't seem to find it, preventing me from releasing it on the Workshop. In commander view, the camera drops down to very close to the ground in the southern half of the map. I removed all Commander Cameras from the map, but it still does this. I expected the commander view to not work at all if there are no Commander Camera entities in the map, so I figured there's one hidden away somewhere. I hope I can figure out whether it's an errant Commander Camera or something else at play very soon, so I can release.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/BcsGB.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/mP8LM.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
With coordinates and the name of the Location entity that the entity is inside listed, each one selectable of course. I may have to ask this function for christmas. ;)
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pkVxU25jz6w"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pkVxU25jz6w" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
I don't personally want all the NS1 remake maps to be 4 techpoint maps. I personally quite dislike veil because of it.
If aliens didn't just sort of get nano grid for free it would be really hard to play that map out because of the SUPER long res point distances for cysting. That map is successful on a knifes edge.
tl;dr: I derped, but I'm okay now. :} I hope mappers who aren't yet familiar with Commander Cameras and overviews might learn from my shameful mistakes.
Anyways, I will release a new version of Caged on the Steam Workshop momentarily, and here's another progress video and brief changelog of the most notable changes:
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/x-UVvBf3WXQ"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/x-UVvBf3WXQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
CHANGELOG
o Changed the layout of the exits in Marine Start; now two separate exits.
o Added Break Room corridor, connecting Monitoring to Central Processing.
o Moved Auxiliary Generator a little southward and shrank down Shipping Tunnels and Upper Shipping Access, and added a shortcut between Aux Gen and Shipping.
o Removed the res node in Shipping Tunnels.
o Added a "chamber" to the middle of That One Hallway as well as a ton of vents and some temporary props for cover; hopefully easier to defend for aliens now.
o Redesigned Purification Station, moved the res node.
o Removed the corridor connecting Ventilation Access to the back of Central Processing.
o Moved the catwalk and ramp in Upper Sewer, and added more cover in the tunnel connecting it to Lower Sewer.
o Added a lot of cover all throughout he map.
o Added more vents all over the map, especially near generator hive.
o Added a texture explaining the status of the map to the ready room, all tech points, and all resource node locations.
<!--quoteo(post=2046751:date=Dec 16 2012, 07:51 PM:name=nadyli)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nadyli @ Dec 16 2012, 07:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2046751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're going for non-ns1 approach to techpoints could you provide us earlier version of the map that could support it. No need for textures/anything (other people could do that, with your permission of course), I just know people that prefer the 4 techpoint system (myself included) and could really enjoy this map that way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I do eventually choose to make it a 5TP map, I'm willing to consider releasing a 4TP/2xres version as well.
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JxfZl96zo3Q"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JxfZl96zo3Q" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>
Protip: great moments at around 3:33 and 7:57.
When i played Aliens as onos i did get chased down by a JP from their start to center hive, it felt a little bit far to chase, but i'm a mediocre onos so its happened before on other maps. From the alien perspective the marine bases felt a little harder than other maps. Usually there is an angle you can bombard in with a little cover or the power node vulnerable from the other room. On this map the tech points (top right and bottom left) felt dug in. We couldn't seem to hit them except by forcing a beacon or large distraction at one base, then taking the 'real' target out.
Its hard to talk balance based on 2 rounds. But aliens probably need a little more cover and ambush spots or more vents and alt routes to engage from. If it is still too easy for marines then maybe tech point power needs to be a little more vulnerable letting advanced aliens like onos hit and escape and make gorge harass more viable. The map may be more fun with the power not getting cheesed, or it may make it harder to turn the game around with it protected in the back.
Balance is a bit uncomfortable to talk about since I've played literally 2 rounds of the map and it went marines 1 aliens 1.
TLDR: felt a little bit marine slanted (but based on 2 rounds of play so hardly conclusive) - possibly due to large areas for JP, shooting lanes/lack of cover, and/or tech power being tough to harass.
Was a fun map.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/mP8LM.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
With coordinates and the name of the Location entity that the entity is inside listed, each one selectable of course. I may have to ask this function for christmas. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How did you get those statistics window?
I think its mockup ;)
<b>models/props/refinery/refinery_lava_pool_01.model</b>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/qQe5A.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I need this prop for the Upper Sewer, Lower Sewer and Sewer hive locations. What I'm looking for specifically is that lava prop, but rather than lava it needs to be somewhat murky water (Caged takes place on a space ship - or construction vessel - that hasn't been in proper use for a while, so rather than raw and disgusting sewage, I'm imagining the sewers to be full of more water than waste). And it shouldn't be that lit-up, of course. If possible, the water needs to flow a bit faster than the lava does in this prop. Perhaps I really do need an entirely new model. :}
Is there anyone out there who could help me out with this? You can reply here, or hit me up on Steam - just search for Flaterectomy, there aren't that many. ;)
Yeah, I'll be placing the prop underneath grating.
<b>models/props/refinery/refinery_lava_pool_01.model</b>
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/qQe5A.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
I need this prop for the Upper Sewer, Lower Sewer and Sewer hive locations. What I'm looking for specifically is that lava prop, but rather than lava it needs to be somewhat murky water (Caged takes place on a space ship - or construction vessel - that hasn't been in proper use for a while, so rather than raw and disgusting sewage, I'm imagining the sewers to be full of more water than waste). And it shouldn't be that lit-up, of course. If possible, the water needs to flow a bit faster than the lava does in this prop. Perhaps I really do need an entirely new model. :}
Is there anyone out there who could help me out with this? You can reply here, or hit me up on Steam - just search for Flaterectomy, there aren't that many. ;)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm bumping my own post here, as I am still yearning for a moving water prop. :}