Not that I know of, except for informing the server administrators. There is talk of a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125926&st=0" target="_blank">Community Ban List</a>.
ZeframJoin Date: 2004-05-11Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
I hope that community ban list never gets activated. The idea's fraught with problems. You should just let individual servers admin their own player base.
<!--quoteo(post=2049840:date=Dec 22 2012, 12:12 PM:name=Melatonin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melatonin @ Dec 22 2012, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->for those that didn't see the help tip yet:
you can always hold tab, and click on the icon next to their name to mute them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> this needs to work for text too, i don't think it does at the moment, but i could be wrong.
<!--quoteo(post=2049841:date=Dec 22 2012, 10:16 AM:name=greenpee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (greenpee @ Dec 22 2012, 10:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049841"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this needs to work for text too, i don't think it does at the moment, but i could be wrong.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And ammo/med pack calls.
But that should be a separate option. So you can mute one but not the other.
Edit: The Community Ban List is an atrocious idea. Server admins shouldn't have any resource to pull opinions from, they should simply manage their own servers as they see fit. There is already an extreme popular server that has developed a reputation for assuming skill is hacking and banning strong K:D ratios because they believe they are impossible to achieve legitimately. Why should this kind of ignorant admin/owner have any influence on anyone else's server?
<!--quoteo(post=2049867:date=Dec 22 2012, 01:51 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 22 2012, 01:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And ammo/med pack calls.
But that should be a separate option. So you can mute one but not the other.
Edit: The Community Ban List is an atrocious idea. Server admins shouldn't have any resource to pull opinions from, they should simply manage their own servers as they see fit. There is already an extreme popular server that has developed a reputation for assuming skill is hacking and banning strong K:D ratios because they believe they are impossible to achieve legitimately. Why should this kind of ignorant admin/owner have any influence on anyone else's server?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> it amazes me how many people jump to the assumption that this project is an automated process that just bans players because one admin or player submits a problem player.. the community ban list is simply a tool to pool steamids into one location and allow players to submit screen shots/video and let server admins choose what they feel should be removed from thier own server. the operators list is seperated from the regular player submitted list for many reasons. there isnt a automated "omg ur banned from every server now ", server admins are required to use inteligence and apply the bans they feel benefit thier server based on the quality of the submitted info and the number of times that player was reported
Where did I say, in this terminology or not, "omg ur banned from every server now"?
In fact, your response illustrated exactly what I was saying.
Server administrators should deal with their problems in their servers without taking any information from a source that is exclusively negatively toned.
Lets say I'm banned from servers A, L, and C for 'hacking'. They all upload "proof", comments, what not to that ban list. Server owner D, E, F, where I haven't been banned, look at that and go "well he was banned from these 3 servers for hacking, that's enough for me" and I'm banned. Previous to the proposed community ban list, D, E and F would make their own decisions to ban a player for "hacking" or not, based on their own information/observations. It may not be any more of an accurate decision, but they arrived at it without any other influence. Instead, they have a site that references opinions and complaints from operators who don't know any better from the next average person. In the end, I may have not been banned from D, but maybe not from E and F, by my own play being interpreted differently. Or maybe none at all. The entire time, I've just been higher skilled player, playing legitimately.
I'm saying that the information the Community Ban List is looking to put together will be used lazily and irresponsibly. It will cause a huge divide between players with skill and players without, while doing little to nail down actual hackers.
<!--quoteo(post=2049926:date=Dec 22 2012, 10:22 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049926"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it amazes me how many people jump to the assumption that this project is an automated process that just bans players because one admin or player submits a problem player.. the community ban list is simply a tool to pool steamids into one location and allow players to submit screen shots/video and let server admins choose what they feel should be removed from thier own server. the operators list is seperated from the regular player submitted list for many reasons. there isnt a automated "omg ur banned from every server now ", server admins are required to use inteligence and apply the bans they feel benefit thier server based on the quality of the submitted info and the number of times that player was reported<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fascist.
... sorry, couldn't resist, I'm just kidding. Server admin's business is server admin's business.
No, there isnt and I hope it wont ever come. If you played LoL before you will know why. I dont want NS2 community to become a bunch of crying ######es. If you introduce a report system you will get things like:
-Oh my god he got into comm chair before me, but I asked first... report! -Noob comm didnt research armorupgrade first... report! -Stupid marine stole my pumpgun... report! -He grapped my onos egg... report! -that marine killed me 5 times, he must cheat... report!
Also you will have reporting troll premades everywhere. In the end everyone will just cry around and threatening others with reports for every ######ing reason they can find. Noone needs that.
Just go on a moderated server and ask admins to ban this kind of players, or just change the server. The gaming community is really pathetic nowadays. In the good old times of gaming there werent half as many ###### who were crying because some random stranger hurt their feelings.
<!--quoteo(post=2049978:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:21 PM:name=WitchcraftTheEvertrolling)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WitchcraftTheEvertrolling @ Dec 22 2012, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049978"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, there isnt and I hope it wont ever come. If you played LoL before you will know why. I dont want NS2 community to become a bunch of crying ######es. If you introduce a report system you will get things like:
-Oh my god he got into comm chair before me, but I asked first... report! -Noob comm didnt research armorupgrade first... report! -Stupid marine stole my pumpgun... report! -He grapped my onos egg... report! -that marine killed me 5 times, he must cheat... report!
Also you will have reporting troll premades everywhere. In the end everyone will just cry around and threatening others with reports for every ######ing reason they can find. Noone needs that.
Just go on a moderated server and ask admins to ban this kind of players, or just change the server. The gaming community is really pathetic nowadays. In the good old times of gaming there werent half as many ###### who were crying because some random stranger hurt their feelings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been a part of guilds that pulled pretty much exactly this in MMO's, not sure it would carry over to NS2 but you're probably right.
ZeframJoin Date: 2004-05-11Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
<!--quoteo(post=2049935:date=Dec 22 2012, 03:50 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 22 2012, 03:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm saying that the information the Community Ban List is looking to put together will be used lazily and irresponsibly. It will cause a huge divide between players with skill and players without, while doing little to nail down actual hackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Exactly, it just becomes a witch hunt and akin to McCarthyism in America's 1950s.
<!--quoteo(post=2049935:date=Dec 22 2012, 04:50 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 22 2012, 04:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049935"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Where did I say, in this terminology or not, "omg ur banned from every server now"?
I'm saying that the information the Community Ban List is looking to put together will be used lazily and irresponsibly. It will cause a huge divide between players with skill and players without, while doing little to nail down actual hackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't - Was just saying.. it amazed me to see how many people jumped to that conclusion (over all).
In reply -
I honestly don't see the list being most effective in regards to "hackers" - after all even a video or screen shot is left open to the interpretation of the viewer. Where I see the list shining is in "griefer" type players (who's sole reason for being there that night is to make everyone else miserable because they can).
As far as "rage reports" - these will be self evident by the lack of "proof" of the claim and a single user submission.. After all how do you "prove" that someone did some thing they didn't , or even get a screen shot of " a comm who didn't research armor upgrade first". It's obvious and will stand out when you go to do a little homework on the report..
The list power comes from the masses - the ability to tally the reports and research the reports. You can spam an ID into the system as a player holding multiple accounts, but when someone goes to do a little homework on the reports, it's going to be self evident that it's nothing more then crap.
In regards to your comment about being removed from servers you have not played on yet, this is the point. Honestly, if your "skill" causes you to be reported by (for giggles lets say 8) different servers because your making playing on these servers miserable for everyone else, you probably don't need to play on my server as well..
The server ops are not robots, and are not forced to apply any ban they don't want to.. Simple as that. If what was submitted about you got you removed from servers, my guess is if you keep up the action your going to get removed from many more anyway.
<i><b>Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.</b></i>
Players always want to be heard when something happened they feel was "unjust", and to know that some one will hear it. The list does this, but it does it while saying " Ok, I hear you, but you have to prove your point.. and let's see what happens".
and Zefram, a witch hunt requires a single persons word of which the masses follow blindly...
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The list power comes from the masses<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure why that is being considered a good thing?
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to your comment about being removed from servers you have not played on yet, this is the point. Honestly, if your "skill" causes you to be reported by (for giggles lets say 8) different servers because your making playing on these servers miserable for everyone else, you probably don't need to play on my server as well..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So ultimately, following that line, more skilled players should be separated from less skilled players because the less skilled players aren't having fun. Got it. Sounds like a great idea.
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The server ops are not robots, and are not forced to apply any ban they don't want to.. Simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Remember that time I pointed out that server admins are more likely to have their decisions swayed by a "central database" of what are essentially opinions? I do. There was also the example of a totally legitimate, reasonable player getting banned from servers because less informed admins make a knee jerk and/or uninformed reaction. All you do by centralizing all their reactions is snowball the effect. Furthermore, you're justifying it with your quote above by saying at a certain point high skill level is in effect cheating and removal from a server may be necessary. So anyone who wants to get better than the people they're competing against should go ahead and stop.
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and Zefram, a witch hunt requires a single persons word of which the masses follow blindly...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is not at all true, hence "mob mentality".
It's rather clear your not going to see the driving point behind the idea, and that's ok.
I never said that a certain point high skill level is in effect cheating and removal from a server may be necessary, I said that if your playing on MY server, was causing enough players to be fed up with playing with you, I may remove the problem.. Fair? nope.. but that's the way the cookie crumbles on a public server. I'm not hosting it for "you", I'm hosting it for everyone, and when it appears that the scale has tipped outside of your favor, it's time for you to find another server.
This "type" of report isn't really valid from outside of the "server operator" generated list, because honestly, it's not for the general players to decide who should be playing on a server they don't run, that's for the operators of that server to choose.
I think of the list like a stage - Everyone can step up and have an opinion, doesn't mean that everyone else will agree with what you have to say . (much like you and me at the moment). But you know what? Everyone deserves a chance to air what they have to say , I'm just giving you that chance.
and the power of the masses is a good thing because the power of a single submitted ID gives too much control to a single user. One person says I'm an a$$hole, they may just not like me.. if 10+ people say I'm an a$$hole, I'm probably an a$$hole...
<!--quoteo(post=2050020:date=Dec 22 2012, 07:11 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 07:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and the power of the masses is a good thing because the power of a single submitted ID gives too much control to a single user. One person says I'm an a$$hole, they may just not like me.. if 10+ people say I'm an a$$hole, I'm probably an a$$hole...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you wouldn't go walking across the yards of a retired neighborhood those old folks wouldn't call you names like that.
Too bad the cool kids across town don't want you around any more now as a result.
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As far as "rage reports" - these will be self evident by the lack of "proof" of the claim and a single user submission.. After all how do you "prove" that someone did some thing they didn't , or even get a screen shot of " a comm who didn't research armor upgrade first". It's obvious and will stand out when you go to do a little homework on the report..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was also the central Idea of Tribunal in League of Legens. You know how it ended? 98% of report cases getting punished. Thats exactly what will happen to your Ban List, with growing numbers of players Admins will stop to search for evidence and just ban everyone listed there. Do you really think every Admin will take hours per day to checking proofs on everyone listed there? The power of the "masses" has always been the worst possible solution.
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The list power comes from the masses - the ability to tally the reports and research the reports. You can spam an ID into the system as a player holding multiple accounts, but when someone goes to do a little homework on the reports, it's going to be self evident that it's nothing more then crap.
In regards to your comment about being removed from servers you have not played on yet, this is the point. Honestly, if your "skill" causes you to be reported by (for giggles lets say 8) different servers because your making playing on these servers miserable for everyone else, you probably don't need to play on my server as well..
The server ops are not robots, and are not forced to apply any ban they don't want to.. Simple as that. If what was submitted about you got you removed from servers, my guess is if you keep up the action your going to get removed from many more anyway.
<i><b>Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.</b></i>
Players always want to be heard when something happened they feel was "unjust", and to know that some one will hear it. The list does this, but it does it while saying " Ok, I hear you, but you have to prove your point.. and let's see what happens".
and Zefram, a witch hunt requires a single persons word of which the masses follow blindly...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Masses will always burn the witch. This system only works if the "masses" got a brain. As you can see on other games they dont. This System will be abused by butthurt kids who spam reports, while Admins will just ban everyone with enough reports without checking the proofs. This System grants more problems that it solves. In the theory this idea is reasonable, but it wont work because the "masses" dont use their brain before reporting, while Admins wont waste their time for proper researches.
Maybe a bit offtopic, but if you actually take a look at politics, you will notice that in reality witchhunt is still working fine. The single person who tells us who is the witch is called mass media. Thats the power of the masses for you...
<!--quoteo(post=2050020:date=Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's rather clear your not going to see the driving point behind the idea, and that's ok.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's rather clear you don't understand the difference between "comprehension" and "disagreement".
I "see" the driving point. You view an outcome, I view another. That's what we disagree on. My unwillingness to agree with your view on it isn't derived from lack of understanding.
<!--quoteo(post=2050020:date=Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said that a certain point high skill level is in effect cheating and removal from a server may be necessary, I said that if your playing on MY server, was causing enough players to be fed up with playing with you, I may remove the problem.. Fair? nope.. but that's the way the cookie crumbles on a public server. I'm not hosting it for "you", I'm hosting it for everyone, and when it appears that the scale has tipped outside of your favor, it's time for you to find another server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course you didn't say that. I was drawing the linear progression of your logic. If someone is good enough, legitimately, to disrupt a server and be banned, what is the difference between skill and hacking? Furthermore, the next step is separate servers based on skill level, implement some form of tier system and pretty much fissure the entire community.
<!--quoteo(post=2050020:date=Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This "type" of report isn't really valid from outside of the "server operator" generated list, because honestly, it's not for the general players to decide who should be playing on a server they don't run, that's for the operators of that server to choose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why are the operators any different from the general players? Oh wait, they aren't. They aren't granted some innate knowledge of the game, a deeper understanding of hackers and a better decision making process. They can be in a bad mood, wrong, impulsive just like anyone else. More frequently even, as they have both an investment to protect, a status to maintain and often many tend to get just a little power high to any disagreement.
<!--quoteo(post=2050020:date=Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One person says I'm an a$$hole, they may just not like me.. if 10+ people say I'm an a$$hole, I'm probably an a$$hole...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's so baffling, as that logic is terrible. I could get hundreds of people to line up to call me an a**hole... yet the majority of people don't believe I am. 10 wrong(ed) people don't make it valid. It means 10 misunderstandings, bad timings, accidents, or just plain venom on their part. Why you'd want to publicly lump their opinions together in some kind of "access this to find out a very limited view from a group of people on a site exclusively for negative feedback about a player who you know nothing about" system.
I'm still not agreeing with any potential benefit and see overwhelming negatives.
As witchcraft said, it's excellent in theory. It's ineffective in reality; there are plenty of examples to draw from.
<!--quoteo(post=2050173:date=Dec 23 2012, 05:44 AM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 23 2012, 05:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050173"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why are the operators any different from the general players? Oh wait, they aren't. They aren't granted some innate knowledge of the game, a deeper understanding of hackers and a better decision making process. They can be in a bad mood, wrong, impulsive just like anyone else. More frequently even, as they have both an investment to protect, a status to maintain and often many tend to get just a little power high to any disagreement.
That's so baffling, as that logic is terrible. I could get hundreds of people to line up to call me an a**hole... yet the majority of people don't believe I am. 10 wrong(ed) people don't make it valid. It means 10 misunderstandings, bad timings, accidents, or just plain venom on their part. Why you'd want to publicly lump their opinions together in some kind of "access this to find out a very limited view from a group of people on a site exclusively for negative feedback about a player who you know nothing about" system.
I'm still not agreeing with any potential benefit and see overwhelming negatives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is I think the main place we split opinions-
In my view, if 10 completely different server operators decided a player needed to be removed from their server, It would peak my interest enough to look at the information they submitted (screenshot, video, etc), because honestly, something is wrong with that player... Does it warrant a ban without me looking at why? No, not at all. The fact remains that's 10 different people, swayed by nothing but their own judgement, choosing to remove that player from their game server. Statistically, that player is a problem... It's up to the other operators to decide if that player is a problem enough to ban as well.
Why are the operators any different from the general players? Because they are attempting to keep a server running, and by doing so they are appealing to the masses. If you fail at appeasing the general mass of players, your going to loose your player base, the end result being a non-relevant server. I would trust 10 people who have no other connection other then they run decently populated servers over 10 random pub players who are in it for themselves.. just how it is.
Tonight on UWE 16 server someone was ejecting all the marines commanders, including me. After that, we just cant command anymore. There is a bug or, someone hacked the server?
<!--quoteo(post=2050020:date=Dec 22 2012, 10:11 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 10:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said that a certain point high skill level is in effect cheating and removal from a server may be necessary, I said that if your playing on MY server, was causing enough players to be fed up with playing with you, I may remove the problem.. Fair? nope.. but that's the way the cookie crumbles on a public server. I'm not hosting it for "you", I'm hosting it for everyone, and when it appears that the scale has tipped outside of your favor, it's time for you to find another server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This really does sum it up in a nutshell.
Is there a literal difference between cheating and insanely high skill? Yes. Is there a literal difference between cheating and insanely high skill in the <b>END RESULT</b>? No. If a guy is going 50-0 and is unstoppable in every way shape and form, that's going to imbalance the server no matter what side he is on and no matter if he is cheating or not. So if people are leaving the server in droves because of one player, then in the end it doesn't matter whether it is skill or cheating since the IMPACT on the server is the same.
So admit that you skill ban players than so that people are aware of that when looking at your bans?? As the creator of a community ban system that openly says that they skill ban players, then questions why its an issue is quite ignorant.... Im not sure if you realize what a problem that can create in a community, especially one like NS1/2 where you have alot of people that play at a extremely high level, is it unfair for those players to be able to play the game publicly anywhere? Whats stopping people from just assuming, anyone better than me is breaking the game/cheating, and banning them??
Basically it comes down to systems like this creating alot more dislike of certain players than is needed, and generally ruins games in far more ways that you realize... If I get banned from 20+ servers because some idiot admin thinks I am cheating, do you think Im going to have a very polite attitude if I manage to get unbanned.. or use a different account? All your doing is perpetuating the cycle of people hating on higher skilled players.
<!--quoteo(post=2050395:date=Dec 23 2012, 04:21 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 23 2012, 04:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050395"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This really does sum it up in a nutshell.
Is there a literal difference between cheating and insanely high skill? Yes. Is there a literal difference between cheating and insanely high skill in the <b>END RESULT</b>? No. If a guy is going 50-0 and is unstoppable in every way shape and form, that's going to imbalance the server no matter what side he is on and no matter if he is cheating or not. So if people are leaving the server in droves because of one player, then in the end it doesn't matter whether it is skill or cheating since the IMPACT on the server is the same.
I totally agree with this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Or everyone else is just really bad.
I can see it now, "<50 hours ONLY OR BAN", "No 3.0 KDRs", "NES Controllers only", "Crouch only", "Pistol only", among other popular names.
<!--quoteo(post=2050393:date=Dec 23 2012, 05:11 PM:name=hapi18)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (hapi18 @ Dec 23 2012, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050393"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tonight on UWE 16 server someone was ejecting all the marines commanders, including me. After that, we just cant command anymore. There is a bug or, someone hacked the server?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is a group of trolls apparently running rampant on the UWE servers and have been doing this to ruin everyones game. There was a thread about this recently. Until UWE can properly manage all their servers I would suggest playing on the other player owned servers.
Like Volcano said, once you get ejected you can re-comm. So if your entire team gets ejected, I would image nobody could comm. Not sure if there's a timer or you just can comm for that round.
<!--quoteo(post=2050407:date=Dec 23 2012, 06:46 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Dec 23 2012, 06:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050407"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So admit that you skill ban players than so that people are aware of that when looking at your bans?? As the creator of a community ban system that openly says that they skill ban players, then questions why its an issue is quite ignorant.... Im not sure if you realize what a problem that can create in a community, especially one like NS1/2 where you have alot of people that play at a extremely high level, is it unfair for those players to be able to play the game publicly anywhere? Whats stopping people from just assuming, anyone better than me is breaking the game/cheating, and banning them??
Basically it comes down to systems like this creating alot more dislike of certain players than is needed, and generally ruins games in far more ways that you realize... If I get banned from 20+ servers because some idiot admin thinks I am cheating, do you think Im going to have a very polite attitude if I manage to get unbanned.. or use a different account? All your doing is perpetuating the cycle of people hating on higher skilled players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I have not yet "skill banned" any players... I simply stated that I would if that player was the cause of players leaving in mass droves. If you would rather not be banned, then at some point you have to realize that your "skill" is far beyond the players of the server you are on, and that it's now up to you to act like an adult and A) Find a new server with more competition, B) Take the comm chair, or C) Tone down your game play - How is it fun to sit there and spank newbies anyway? Other then to stoke your own personal E-peen..
Is it reportable in the ban list? Sure, but what can you honestly say about it? Player so and so had a high K:D Ratio? So what... You can take a screen shot, you can make a video, but it all shows the same thing, that the player is raping face on the server. Doesn't mean your going to be able to convince another operator to ban that ID with just that...
We keep cycling back to the same argument - and I have answered it many times, The list really does little against "cheating" , and for good reason, IT WASN'T DESIGNED FOR IT. It's against griefers and Aholes that ruin game play for everyone else... Like the reported "comm ejecting" in the thread above this post. THIS is what the list was designed for...
<!--quoteo(post=2050422:date=Dec 23 2012, 05:29 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 23 2012, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have not yet "skill banned" any players... I simply stated that I would if that player was the cause of players leaving in mass droves. If you would rather not be banned, then at some point you have to realize that your "skill" is far beyond the players of the server you are on, and that it's now up to you to act like an adult and A) Find a new server with more competition, B) Take the comm chair, or C) Tone down your game play - How is it fun to sit there and spank newbies anyway? Other then to stoke your own personal E-peen..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trust me they aren't there to stroke.. they are there to A) practice aim or B) just have fun like everyone else.
Making us out to be some evil competitive players bent on the destruction of all pubbers is wrong.
This thread has been the best argument against a community ban list that I've seen.
If it is your own private server, go ahead and ban people for whatever reason. I've seen server operators ban people for all kinds of stupid reasons (too bad, too good, too cheesy, wearing clan tags, killing an admin, winning, losing, and just about every other action possible in an fps). The last thing I want is a congregate of stupid admins banning people and using other stupid admins' bans as justification for more banning.
Comments
There is talk of a <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=125926&st=0" target="_blank">Community Ban List</a>.
you can always hold tab, and click on the icon next to their name to mute them.
you can always hold tab, and click on the icon next to their name to mute them.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
this needs to work for text too, i don't think it does at the moment, but i could be wrong.
And ammo/med pack calls.
But that should be a separate option. So you can mute one but not the other.
Edit: The Community Ban List is an atrocious idea. Server admins shouldn't have any resource to pull opinions from, they should simply manage their own servers as they see fit. There is already an extreme popular server that has developed a reputation for assuming skill is hacking and banning strong K:D ratios because they believe they are impossible to achieve legitimately. Why should this kind of ignorant admin/owner have any influence on anyone else's server?
But that should be a separate option. So you can mute one but not the other.
Edit: The Community Ban List is an atrocious idea. Server admins shouldn't have any resource to pull opinions from, they should simply manage their own servers as they see fit. There is already an extreme popular server that has developed a reputation for assuming skill is hacking and banning strong K:D ratios because they believe they are impossible to achieve legitimately. Why should this kind of ignorant admin/owner have any influence on anyone else's server?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it amazes me how many people jump to the assumption that this project is an automated process that just bans players because one admin or player submits a problem player.. the community ban list is simply a tool to pool steamids into one location and allow players to submit screen shots/video and let server admins choose what they feel should be removed from thier own server. the operators list is seperated from the regular player submitted list for many reasons. there isnt a automated "omg ur banned from every server now ", server admins are required to use inteligence and apply the bans they feel benefit thier server based on the quality of the submitted info and the number of times that player was reported
In fact, your response illustrated exactly what I was saying.
Server administrators should deal with their problems in their servers without taking any information from a source that is exclusively negatively toned.
Lets say I'm banned from servers A, L, and C for 'hacking'. They all upload "proof", comments, what not to that ban list. Server owner D, E, F, where I haven't been banned, look at that and go "well he was banned from these 3 servers for hacking, that's enough for me" and I'm banned. Previous to the proposed community ban list, D, E and F would make their own decisions to ban a player for "hacking" or not, based on their own information/observations. It may not be any more of an accurate decision, but they arrived at it without any other influence. Instead, they have a site that references opinions and complaints from operators who don't know any better from the next average person. In the end, I may have not been banned from D, but maybe not from E and F, by my own play being interpreted differently. Or maybe none at all. The entire time, I've just been higher skilled player, playing legitimately.
I'm saying that the information the Community Ban List is looking to put together will be used lazily and irresponsibly. It will cause a huge divide between players with skill and players without, while doing little to nail down actual hackers.
Fascist.
... sorry, couldn't resist, I'm just kidding. Server admin's business is server admin's business.
-Oh my god he got into comm chair before me, but I asked first... report!
-Noob comm didnt research armorupgrade first... report!
-Stupid marine stole my pumpgun... report!
-He grapped my onos egg... report!
-that marine killed me 5 times, he must cheat... report!
Also you will have reporting troll premades everywhere. In the end everyone will just cry around and threatening others with reports for every ######ing reason they can find. Noone needs that.
Just go on a moderated server and ask admins to ban this kind of players, or just change the server. The gaming community is really pathetic nowadays. In the good old times of gaming there werent half as many ###### who were crying because some random stranger hurt their feelings.
-Oh my god he got into comm chair before me, but I asked first... report!
-Noob comm didnt research armorupgrade first... report!
-Stupid marine stole my pumpgun... report!
-He grapped my onos egg... report!
-that marine killed me 5 times, he must cheat... report!
Also you will have reporting troll premades everywhere. In the end everyone will just cry around and threatening others with reports for every ######ing reason they can find. Noone needs that.
Just go on a moderated server and ask admins to ban this kind of players, or just change the server. The gaming community is really pathetic nowadays. In the good old times of gaming there werent half as many ###### who were crying because some random stranger hurt their feelings.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been a part of guilds that pulled pretty much exactly this in MMO's, not sure it would carry over to NS2 but you're probably right.
The internet is no place for feelings.
Exactly, it just becomes a witch hunt and akin to McCarthyism in America's 1950s.
I'm saying that the information the Community Ban List is looking to put together will be used lazily and irresponsibly. It will cause a huge divide between players with skill and players without, while doing little to nail down actual hackers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't - Was just saying.. it amazed me to see how many people jumped to that conclusion (over all).
In reply -
I honestly don't see the list being most effective in regards to "hackers" - after all even a video or screen shot is left open to the interpretation of the viewer.
Where I see the list shining is in "griefer" type players (who's sole reason for being there that night is to make everyone else miserable because they can).
As far as "rage reports" - these will be self evident by the lack of "proof" of the claim and a single user submission.. After all how do you "prove" that someone did some thing they didn't , or even get a screen shot of " a comm who didn't research armor upgrade first". It's obvious and will stand out when you go to do a little homework on the report..
The list power comes from the masses - the ability to tally the reports and research the reports. You can spam an ID into the system as a player holding multiple accounts, but when someone goes to do a little homework on the reports, it's going to be self evident that it's nothing more then crap.
In regards to your comment about being removed from servers you have not played on yet, this is the point. Honestly, if your "skill" causes you to be reported by (for giggles lets say 8) different servers because your making playing on these servers miserable for everyone else, you probably don't need to play on my server as well..
The server ops are not robots, and are not forced to apply any ban they don't want to.. Simple as that. If what was submitted about you got you removed from servers, my guess is if you keep up the action your going to get removed from many more anyway.
<i><b>Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.</b></i>
Players always want to be heard when something happened they feel was "unjust", and to know that some one will hear it. The list does this, but it does it while saying " Ok, I hear you, but you have to prove your point.. and let's see what happens".
and Zefram, a witch hunt requires a single persons word of which the masses follow blindly...
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to your comment about being removed from servers you have not played on yet, this is the point. Honestly, if your "skill" causes you to be reported by (for giggles lets say 8) different servers because your making playing on these servers miserable for everyone else, you probably don't need to play on my server as well..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So ultimately, following that line, more skilled players should be separated from less skilled players because the less skilled players aren't having fun. Got it. Sounds like a great idea.
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The server ops are not robots, and are not forced to apply any ban they don't want to.. Simple as that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Remember that time I pointed out that server admins are more likely to have their decisions swayed by a "central database" of what are essentially opinions? I do. There was also the example of a totally legitimate, reasonable player getting banned from servers because less informed admins make a knee jerk and/or uninformed reaction. All you do by centralizing all their reactions is snowball the effect. Furthermore, you're justifying it with your quote above by saying at a certain point high skill level is in effect cheating and removal from a server may be necessary. So anyone who wants to get better than the people they're competing against should go ahead and stop.
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and Zefram, a witch hunt requires a single persons word of which the masses follow blindly...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is not at all true, hence "mob mentality".
I never said that a certain point high skill level is in effect cheating and removal from a server may be necessary, I said that if your playing on MY server, was causing enough players to be fed up with playing with you, I may remove the problem.. Fair? nope.. but that's the way the cookie crumbles on a public server. I'm not hosting it for "you", I'm hosting it for everyone, and when it appears that the scale has tipped outside of your favor, it's time for you to find another server.
This "type" of report isn't really valid from outside of the "server operator" generated list, because honestly, it's not for the general players to decide who should be playing on a server they don't run, that's for the operators of that server to choose.
I think of the list like a stage - Everyone can step up and have an opinion, doesn't mean that everyone else will agree with what you have to say . (much like you and me at the moment). But you know what? Everyone deserves a chance to air what they have to say , I'm just giving you that chance.
and the power of the masses is a good thing because the power of a single submitted ID gives too much control to a single user. One person says I'm an a$$hole, they may just not like me.. if 10+ people say I'm an a$$hole, I'm probably an a$$hole...
If you wouldn't go walking across the yards of a retired neighborhood those old folks wouldn't call you names like that.
Too bad the cool kids across town don't want you around any more now as a result.
That was also the central Idea of Tribunal in League of Legens. You know how it ended? 98% of report cases getting punished. Thats exactly what will happen to your Ban List, with growing numbers of players Admins will stop to search for evidence and just ban everyone listed there. Do you really think every Admin will take hours per day to checking proofs on everyone listed there? The power of the "masses" has always been the worst possible solution.
<!--quoteo(post=2050013:date=Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 05:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The list power comes from the masses - the ability to tally the reports and research the reports. You can spam an ID into the system as a player holding multiple accounts, but when someone goes to do a little homework on the reports, it's going to be self evident that it's nothing more then crap.
In regards to your comment about being removed from servers you have not played on yet, this is the point. Honestly, if your "skill" causes you to be reported by (for giggles lets say 8) different servers because your making playing on these servers miserable for everyone else, you probably don't need to play on my server as well..
The server ops are not robots, and are not forced to apply any ban they don't want to.. Simple as that. If what was submitted about you got you removed from servers, my guess is if you keep up the action your going to get removed from many more anyway.
<i><b>Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.</b></i>
Players always want to be heard when something happened they feel was "unjust", and to know that some one will hear it. The list does this, but it does it while saying " Ok, I hear you, but you have to prove your point.. and let's see what happens".
and Zefram, a witch hunt requires a single persons word of which the masses follow blindly...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Masses will always burn the witch. This system only works if the "masses" got a brain. As you can see on other games they dont. This System will be abused by butthurt kids who spam reports, while Admins will just ban everyone with enough reports without checking the proofs. This System grants more problems that it solves. In the theory this idea is reasonable, but it wont work because the "masses" dont use their brain before reporting, while Admins wont waste their time for proper researches.
Maybe a bit offtopic, but if you actually take a look at politics, you will notice that in reality witchhunt is still working fine. The single person who tells us who is the witch is called mass media. Thats the power of the masses for you...
It's rather clear you don't understand the difference between "comprehension" and "disagreement".
I "see" the driving point. You view an outcome, I view another. That's what we disagree on. My unwillingness to agree with your view on it isn't derived from lack of understanding.
<!--quoteo(post=2050020:date=Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I never said that a certain point high skill level is in effect cheating and removal from a server may be necessary, I said that if your playing on MY server, was causing enough players to be fed up with playing with you, I may remove the problem.. Fair? nope.. but that's the way the cookie crumbles on a public server. I'm not hosting it for "you", I'm hosting it for everyone, and when it appears that the scale has tipped outside of your favor, it's time for you to find another server.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course you didn't say that. I was drawing the linear progression of your logic. If someone is good enough, legitimately, to disrupt a server and be banned, what is the difference between skill and hacking? Furthermore, the next step is separate servers based on skill level, implement some form of tier system and pretty much fissure the entire community.
<!--quoteo(post=2050020:date=Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This "type" of report isn't really valid from outside of the "server operator" generated list, because honestly, it's not for the general players to decide who should be playing on a server they don't run, that's for the operators of that server to choose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Why are the operators any different from the general players? Oh wait, they aren't. They aren't granted some innate knowledge of the game, a deeper understanding of hackers and a better decision making process. They can be in a bad mood, wrong, impulsive just like anyone else. More frequently even, as they have both an investment to protect, a status to maintain and often many tend to get just a little power high to any disagreement.
<!--quoteo(post=2050020:date=Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Dec 22 2012, 06:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050020"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One person says I'm an a$$hole, they may just not like me.. if 10+ people say I'm an a$$hole, I'm probably an a$$hole...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's so baffling, as that logic is terrible. I could get hundreds of people to line up to call me an a**hole... yet the majority of people don't believe I am. 10 wrong(ed) people don't make it valid. It means 10 misunderstandings, bad timings, accidents, or just plain venom on their part. Why you'd want to publicly lump their opinions together in some kind of "access this to find out a very limited view from a group of people on a site exclusively for negative feedback about a player who you know nothing about" system.
I'm still not agreeing with any potential benefit and see overwhelming negatives.
As witchcraft said, it's excellent in theory. It's ineffective in reality; there are plenty of examples to draw from.
That's so baffling, as that logic is terrible. I could get hundreds of people to line up to call me an a**hole... yet the majority of people don't believe I am. 10 wrong(ed) people don't make it valid. It means 10 misunderstandings, bad timings, accidents, or just plain venom on their part. Why you'd want to publicly lump their opinions together in some kind of "access this to find out a very limited view from a group of people on a site exclusively for negative feedback about a player who you know nothing about" system.
I'm still not agreeing with any potential benefit and see overwhelming negatives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is I think the main place we split opinions-
In my view, if 10 completely different server operators decided a player needed to be removed from their server, It would peak my interest enough to look at the information they submitted (screenshot, video, etc), because honestly, something is wrong with that player... Does it warrant a ban without me looking at why? No, not at all. The fact remains that's 10 different people, swayed by nothing but their own judgement, choosing to remove that player from their game server. Statistically, that player is a problem... It's up to the other operators to decide if that player is a problem enough to ban as well.
Why are the operators any different from the general players? Because they are attempting to keep a server running, and by doing so they are appealing to the masses. If you fail at appeasing the general mass of players, your going to loose your player base, the end result being a non-relevant server. I would trust 10 people who have no other connection other then they run decently populated servers over 10 random pub players who are in it for themselves.. just how it is.
Is there a literal difference between cheating and insanely high skill? Yes. Is there a literal difference between cheating and insanely high skill in the <b>END RESULT</b>? No. If a guy is going 50-0 and is unstoppable in every way shape and form, that's going to imbalance the server no matter what side he is on and no matter if he is cheating or not. So if people are leaving the server in droves because of one player, then in the end it doesn't matter whether it is skill or cheating since the IMPACT on the server is the same.
I totally agree with this.
Basically it comes down to systems like this creating alot more dislike of certain players than is needed, and generally ruins games in far more ways that you realize... If I get banned from 20+ servers because some idiot admin thinks I am cheating, do you think Im going to have a very polite attitude if I manage to get unbanned.. or use a different account? All your doing is perpetuating the cycle of people hating on higher skilled players.
Is there a literal difference between cheating and insanely high skill? Yes. Is there a literal difference between cheating and insanely high skill in the <b>END RESULT</b>? No. If a guy is going 50-0 and is unstoppable in every way shape and form, that's going to imbalance the server no matter what side he is on and no matter if he is cheating or not. So if people are leaving the server in droves because of one player, then in the end it doesn't matter whether it is skill or cheating since the IMPACT on the server is the same.
I totally agree with this.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or everyone else is just really bad.
I can see it now, "<50 hours ONLY OR BAN", "No 3.0 KDRs", "NES Controllers only", "Crouch only", "Pistol only", among other popular names.
There is a group of trolls apparently running rampant on the UWE servers and have been doing this to ruin everyones game. There was a thread about this recently.
Until UWE can properly manage all their servers I would suggest playing on the other player owned servers.
Like Volcano said, once you get ejected you can re-comm. So if your entire team gets ejected, I would image nobody could comm. Not sure if there's a timer or you just can comm for that round.
Basically it comes down to systems like this creating alot more dislike of certain players than is needed, and generally ruins games in far more ways that you realize... If I get banned from 20+ servers because some idiot admin thinks I am cheating, do you think Im going to have a very polite attitude if I manage to get unbanned.. or use a different account? All your doing is perpetuating the cycle of people hating on higher skilled players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have not yet "skill banned" any players... I simply stated that I would if that player was the cause of players leaving in mass droves. If you would rather not be banned, then at some point you have to realize that your "skill" is far beyond the players of the server you are on, and that it's now up to you to act like an adult and A) Find a new server with more competition, B) Take the comm chair, or C) Tone down your game play - How is it fun to sit there and spank newbies anyway? Other then to stoke your own personal E-peen..
Is it reportable in the ban list? Sure, but what can you honestly say about it? Player so and so had a high K:D Ratio? So what... You can take a screen shot, you can make a video, but it all shows the same thing, that the player is raping face on the server. Doesn't mean your going to be able to convince another operator to ban that ID with just that...
We keep cycling back to the same argument - and I have answered it many times, The list really does little against "cheating" , and for good reason, IT WASN'T DESIGNED FOR IT. It's against griefers and Aholes that ruin game play for everyone else... Like the reported "comm ejecting" in the thread above this post. THIS is what the list was designed for...
Trust me they aren't there to stroke.. they are there to A) practice aim or B) just have fun like everyone else.
Making us out to be some evil competitive players bent on the destruction of all pubbers is wrong.
If it is your own private server, go ahead and ban people for whatever reason. I've seen server operators ban people for all kinds of stupid reasons (too bad, too good, too cheesy, wearing clan tags, killing an admin, winning, losing, and just about every other action possible in an fps). The last thing I want is a congregate of stupid admins banning people and using other stupid admins' bans as justification for more banning.