Why are the starting point clealy not random on some maps?
MrChoke
Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 174990Members, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 174990Members, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
I have noticed this on two maps for certain. "Docking", the marines ALWAYS start out in "Transfer". And the other map is "Mineshaft" I think where there is a "Cave" and the aleins ALWAYS start out there.
Is this bugged? Variation in starting points means variation in gameplay especially early on and is a very important aspect to this game. If this is on purpose I don't agree with it. Maybe it is because of balance issues somehow? If so, fix the map so that it can handle totally random starting points for both races.
Is this bugged? Variation in starting points means variation in gameplay especially early on and is a very important aspect to this game. If this is on purpose I don't agree with it. Maybe it is because of balance issues somehow? If so, fix the map so that it can handle totally random starting points for both races.
Comments
Also, aliens don't always start at Cave. There also start at Sorting from time to time.
Regardless, I am assuming that the preset spawn points are done to prevent the two sides from spawning too close to one another, like Terminal/Cafeteria or Deposit/Sorting for example.
Though for that matter, I am not sure why there are preset locations for rt/comm chairs to begin with. I know it's a fps/rts hybrid and all but this is the wrong way to force the rts flow into the game imo
Is this bugged? Variation in starting points means variation in gameplay especially early on and is a very important aspect to this game. If this is on purpose I don't agree with it. Maybe it is because of balance issues somehow? If so, fix the map so that it can handle totally random starting points for both races.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel like most maps aren't balanced unless each team can freely spawn at any of the outside tech points. Usually the marine team only has one spawn, and aliens have one of three, and some of them (like pipeline) are a loss time and time again.
Devs should integrate a "Which hive was first" feature into their statistics, and look at the win/losses of each map. IT would vary greatly for aliens.
indeed. maps get boring fast enough already. even if it is some troll matchups, just make them available ONLY IN CAUSAL. dunno why it is so hard to think of.
Veil and pipeline has some issues yeah, it is too far away from any interesting part from the map.
To answer the OP, the maps starting areas have been designed with either an alien start or a marine start. Both of which have a <b>very</b> different requirement to work as a starting point for the teams. And of course there is the occasional skewed close spawning that usually ends up in aliens having trouble expanding or being egglocked early on. This entire spawn system is not a bug, it is by design. I also tend to disagree with "oh, no random spawns makes for boring gameplay" Public NS2 is chaotic enough to be quite varied in any scenario...
Is this bugged? Variation in starting points means variation in gameplay especially early on and is a very important aspect to this game. If this is on purpose I don't agree with it. Maybe it is because of balance issues somehow? If so, fix the map so that it can handle totally random starting points for both races.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should play more because Mineshaft has random spawns.
NS1 had the same marine spawn every time, although they could relocate the command chair if they were quick.
On veil, marines are always in control, aliens random.
On refinery, marines are always in flow, aliens either turbine or c... whatever that thing next to lava falls is called.
On mineshaft it's repair or operations for marines and sorting or cave for aliens.
Docking is terminal for marines and departures, generator or locker for aliens.
On the topic of the starting points on Tram, Marines and Aliens never spawn in Elevator Transfer or Repair Room (I think) , so Tram is not "truly random".
Spawning in elevator transfer would be way to powerful, it is the center of the map and as such excluded from the spawns just like Crossroards on Summit for obvious reason ;)
What I was trying to say, there are no starting positions which only aliens or only marines have. Any starting position might belong to either team.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Summit - Totally random, "wagon wheel" layout makes this possible
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Tram - There are two central techpoints which provide better ease of access to the entire map than either the top or bottom spawns, which is why teams can only spawn in Warehouse, Server or Shipping.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Veil - this is setup how the original NS1 map was, on top of that the Marines would have a much harder time gathering RTs if they spawned anywhere but Control. Vice versa, Aliens would have an extremely easy time grabbing RTs if spawned in Control
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Refinery - This map is sort of in flux right now, and the spawns are still being looked at and adjusted. Eventually marines should be able to spawn in Smelting or Flow Control (smelting needs to be adjusted first though), aliens already spawn in Containment & Turbine. But since the RTs have been split up and more evenly distributed, nothing is set in stone anymore. This could potentially be a random spawn map with the exclusion of Pipeworks spawn in the future I think.
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Docking - Marines only spawn in Terminal at the moment because it's only 1 of 2 techpoint with ease of access to the center of the map. If they spawned anywhere else you'd find it much more difficult to harass or delay alien expansion. The other being Locker Rooms, but this is untested waters(maybe in the future?).
<!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Mineshaft - It's mineshaft..
In my books the first improvement would be to improve the HUD/UI so that players can distinquish valid spawns for each team instantly rather than through repeated games on each map.
Generator would actually seem like a somewhat viable start for marines as well if they can quickly expand to Departures and Locker Rooms to deny a third Hive.
But from a perspective of style is Generator probably the part of the map that looks least like marine territory due to all the metallic and partly destroyed parts of the environment as opposed to the cosy clean areas in the rest of the map.
When I said "Transfer" above, I mean "Terminal", sorry. People are also telling me aliens start in "Sorting" sometimes on Mineshaft and not always in "Cave". I have never seen it and I have been looking for it but maybe I have just been unlucky.
Let's discuss Marines always starting in "Terminal" then. Is that true? I have never seen it any other way. What is wrong with starting in Cafeteria or Depatures sometimes? Of having the aliens start on the opposite side of course (Locker Room or whatever the upper room is...forgot what its called)
<!--quoteo(post=2050367:date=Dec 24 2012, 05:06 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Dec 24 2012, 05:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050367"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#9ACD32--><span style="color:#9ACD32"><!--/coloro-->---<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->Docking - Marines only spawn in Terminal at the moment because it's only 1 of 2 techpoint with ease of access to the center of the map. If they spawned anywhere else you'd find it much more difficult to harass or delay alien expansion. The other being Locker Rooms, but this is untested waters(maybe in the future?).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, Aliens spawning in Cafe/Terminal will find it hard to protect their hives simply because of how open the rooms are and how far away the Marines can damage them from.
Marines spawning in Cafe will have access to Bar res before either Locker or Terminal res has been accessed by skulks, making it harder to get res points and also harder to harass Alien res points/hive simply because they don't have quick access to the middle of the map. If the Marines can't apply pressure to the Aliens then there will be Oni at the 13 minute mark.
Marines spawning in Cafe will have access to Bar res before either Locker or Terminal res has been accessed by skulks, making it harder to get res points and also harder to harass Alien res points/hive simply because they don't have quick access to the middle of the map. If the Marines can't apply pressure to the Aliens then there will be Oni at the 13 minute mark.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you are saying that the map design MUST have the marines starting in Terminal. Ok, fix the map so that is not required. Allow two decent starting points for marines.
I actually wouldn't mind seeing Marines starting in Cafeteria for a change.
Not sure if that is true so much anymore, with the layout changes, it's about the same distance to courtyard and it's definitely closer to locker rooms. The only bad part is departures is pretty far away.
Because?
<i>Repair</i> is great to pressure the <i>Cave</i> early game, has easier access to the double RT nodes in <i>Central Drilling</i> and feels like it can be more easily expanded to <i>Operations</i> than the other way around. Sure, you can't push <i>Deposit</i> as easy early game, but the advanced map control in the northern and central area makes up for that, imho.
There is just a 5% smaller Win ratio for Marine if they start in <i>Repair</i> compared to a start in <i>Operations</i> (stats based on pub and competitive servers tracked by NS2stats over the last three builds). The aliens however have a 10% greater Win ration for a start in <i>Cave</i> compared to a start in <i>Sorting</i>.
Is this bugged? Variation in starting points means variation in gameplay especially early on and is a very important aspect to this game. If this is on purpose I don't agree with it. Maybe it is because of balance issues somehow? If so, fix the map so that it can handle totally random starting points for both races.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No maps will ever be balanced with completely random starting locations.
Each race requires way too different starting locations, for example, aliens NEEDS vents from their base, while marines NEED to not have them.
It's an asymmetrical game with asymmetrical races. They require asymmetrical spawns.
And don't get me started on close-proximity spawns.
<i>Repair</i> is great to pressure the <i>Cave</i> early game, has easier access to the double RT nodes in <i>Central Drilling</i> and feels like it can be more easily expanded to <i>Operations</i> than the other way around. Sure, you can't push <i>Deposit</i> as easy early game, but the advanced map control in the northern and central area makes up for that, imho.
There is just a 5% smaller Win ratio for Marine if they start in <i>Repair</i> compared to a start in <i>Operations</i> (stats based on pub and competitive servers tracked by NS2stats over the last three builds). The aliens however have a 10% greater Win ration for a start in <i>Cave</i> compared to a start in <i>Sorting</i>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I personally hate like operations better due to 2 close RTs, and easy access to Deposit. I just feel like it is a longer walk from repair to the closest interesting things, which makes it harder to control the first couple RTs.
I would love a feature in the game that dynamically closes of vents into marine starts if they start there. Or in some cases adds a bit more cover in alien starting areas. That way we could have our completely random starts, but I'd rather see this as a setting on a server (default spawns, completely random). However, a starting area is not entirely dependent on those two factors either. The way it is connected to the map also has huge consequences for either team. Ah well, it would still be an interesting feature to play around with if it even got implemented :P
Any halfway good team knows where the enemy base is within the first 15 seconds of the game, though. Simply by the time and direction at which the first enemy players appear or by sending your troops to the closest tech points - if the enemy is there, you found him and if not, you know that he is at the remaining point. Commanders can also scout by taking a look at the tech point locations and see particle effects like hatching eggs and healing Gorges there, though that is admittedly a bug.
I agree you find out quick where the enemy starts but that is not the main problem. Having a fixed starting point for a race keeps many possible variations in gameplay not possible. I'd be ok even if some starting points are at a slight disadvantage for the race, just to make it more challenging and different.