<!--quoteo(post=2052580:date=Dec 28 2012, 07:31 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 28 2012, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052580"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->IOW, quite often if marines lose their SECOND command chair, they have essentially lost the game. No this doesn't always happen, but more often than not it does. Either from a large attack, or from a skulk munching on a power node that doesn't get notified to the team, the second base is gone and the marines are effectively 'done'. Not only have they lost the tech point, they have lost the one thing that might have been able to help them stage a comeback.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems the worm has turned; this was the aliens lot in life in NS1.
I feel it is more about troop positioning, momentum, and casualties then the actual loss of tech. Quite often when you have lost a tech spot your team is either too dead, or out of position to stop the momentum of losing the next spot. This is slightly less of a problem for marines due to their natural ranged advantage, they can turtle much better; just find a nice door to focus fire. Power nodes do lessen the turtle but I agree that they are a bit of an "I Win" button. Not sure how to fix that. The real mettle of a team can be how they respond to the loss of a tech point. I have seen both teams come back. I have seen extended periods of base trading go on as well.
Unfortunately there is a degree of "working as intended" and "learn to play" which hits the marines harder than aliens. This is because the Commander's job is much harder than the Khammander's. Personally, I see this as being offset by the natural ranged advantage the marines enjoy. Once better Commanders start to show up things will change.
<!--quoteo(post=2052962:date=Dec 29 2012, 03:42 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 29 2012, 03:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052962"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're saying that marines will lose more often than not if they lose their second tech point ... Okay, I agree so far... but then you present two options: a) end the game when any cc dies b) agree with your idea that pres items should be purchasable at any point in the game How about: c) this idea is dumb<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->First off, I never presented those as either/or choices. You are taking it out of context.
Secondly, you are mixing two very different issues. The issue of people not being able to buy a pres EXO without a second CC is <b>completely independent</b> of the issue that marines tend to lose when they lose their second CC. The first issue happens *after* the second issue. The two are not linked. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you really think that marines should be able to buy exosuits at any time then why can't I buy shotguns without them being researched? Why do I have to wait for jetpacks to be researched before I can buy jetpacks. I want to play with jetpacks. Let me buy jetpacks whenever I want. I earned the pres, where is my jetpack?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is fallacious reasoning and you know it. The issue is not that there shouldn't be research involved, the issue is that once that research HAS been bought and paid for, then people should be able to purchase their toys. If marines can do everything needed to finish dual-mini research, then the players should have the opportunity to buy their toys.
I don't have a problem with needing the second CC in order to carry out the<b> *research*</b>, my issue is that the <b>*purchase*</b> shouldn't be tied to the second CC. Again, this is not about balance - since that can be changed - this is about FUN. People like playing in the 'mechs', but unlike the alien side, the marines may never get a chance to purchase one, despite saving for one all game.
<!--quoteo(post=2052976:date=Dec 29 2012, 02:30 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 29 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have a problem with needing the second CC in order to carry out the<b> *research*</b>, my issue is that the <b>*purchase*</b> shouldn't be tied to the second CC. Again, this is not about balance - since that can be changed - this is about FUN. People like playing in the 'mechs', but unlike the alien side, the marines may never get a chance to purchase one, despite saving for one all game.
That's just not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is this different than losing Carapace, or Celerity as an Onos? Hasn't the Khamm already researched them despite it being "lost" when it gets destroyed? No cara/regen is usually make or break for Onos. One hive Onos isn't fun; its mostly running. It's like playing a big fat skulk. If we want to untie EXOs from CC's then they'd have to be like playing a big fat marine without the second CC.
<!--quoteo(post=2052975:date=Dec 29 2012, 04:30 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 29 2012, 04:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052975"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It seems the worm has turned; this was the aliens lot in life in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Oh how I remember that. Amazing how the tables have turned.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Power nodes do lessen the turtle but I agree that (lost tech points) are a bit of an "I Win" button. Not sure how to fix that. The real mettle of a team can be how they respond to the loss of a tech point. I have seen both teams come back. I have seen extended periods of base trading go on as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes I have as well, although it was when both sides were pretty green. Just before NS2 went on special, when the community was at its most experienced, a lost tech point was pretty much the beginning of the end. Yeah there were some 'hail mary' attempts at comebacks, but they were few and far between.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately there is a degree of "working as intended" and "learn to play" which hits the marines harder than aliens. This is because the Commander's job is much harder than the Khammander's. Personally, I see this as being offset by the natural ranged advantage the marines enjoy. Once better Commanders start to show up things will change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're totally right, but the marines also need to operate on a much more coordinated level than the aliens. If marines don't work as a team, it doesn't matter if you have the best comm in the game.
It's also why, as the devs found out, when both sides gain experience it's the aliens that become more powerful. Frankly I was surprised when the win ratio started at nearly 50/50 and then went 60/40 for the aliens without the devs touching the game at all. This is because, imho, the marine team is so dependant on the willingness of individual marines to work as a group. Without that teamwork they are doomed from the start. Yet we still lack the means to encourage that teamwork.
Even with people buying their pres EXO, they still don't understand that they are so fragile in that leaving base without a welder on your tail is essentially suicide. Every aspect of marines requires that kind of teamwork, which certainly does raise the bar for the marine team.
<!--quoteo(post=2052980:date=Dec 29 2012, 04:41 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 29 2012, 04:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have a problem with needing the second CC in order to carry out the *research*, my issue is that the *purchase* shouldn't be tied to the second CC. Again, this is not about balance - since that can be changed - this is about FUN. People like playing in the 'mechs', but unlike the alien side, the marines may never get a chance to purchase one, despite saving for one all game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> How is this different than losing Carapace, or Celerity as an Onos? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Let's be fair here, an upgrade is not the same as a lifeform. Losing carapace is like losing an arms lab. Both will have a very marked effect on all players on both sides. A 580 armor EXO dropping to 400 armor when an arms lab goes down is just as bad as losing carapace as an Onos.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One hive Onos isn't fun; its mostly running. It's like playing a big fat skulk. If we want to untie EXOs from CC's then they'd have to be like playing a big fat marine without the second CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Like I said before, I have no issue with 'balancing it out' if that is necessary. That's the easy part. If they did untie the EXO it wouldn't take too many playtests to see how that impacted balance. If it did, they could alter balance to compensate. I'm not concerned with balance at this stage of the game since that's something that can be altered.
The payoff is that if they untie the EXO the players will have more fun. More players having fun means more people buying the game.
<!--quoteo(post=2052985:date=Dec 29 2012, 02:50 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 29 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The payoff is that if they untie the EXO the players will have more fun. More players having fun means more people buying the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it would just shift the discussion to "Why do I have a gimp EXO with one tech point?"
Gimp EXO < EXO
Gimp EXO Fun < EXO Fun
I think that other problems (Hit Reg) need to be addressed while allowing the player base to "mature" so that balancing can occur. Then we can address the "fun" factor of the frequency/availability of EXOs. If after the hit reg is fixed and people learn to play as a team the EXOs are still as rare as Onos were in the earlier stages of NS1, then we can start to discuss removing the tech point requirement.
<!--quoteo(post=2052985:date=Dec 29 2012, 02:50 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 29 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is this different than losing Carapace, or Celerity as an Onos? Let's be fair here, an upgrade is not the same as a lifeform. Losing carapace is like losing an arms lab. Both will have a very marked effect on all players on both sides. A 580 armor EXO dropping to 400 armor when an arms lab goes down is just as bad as losing carapace as an Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it is worse for the Onos, mostly because EXOs have lost half the battle if they allow too many aliens to get close. An EXO hiding down a hall/focus firing a door, with welder support is stronger than an Onos hiding around a corner with a gorge.
<!--quoteo(post=2051347:date=Dec 26 2012, 09:23 AM:name=SabaHell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SabaHell @ Dec 26 2012, 09:23 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051347"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How are you a playtester?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2053013:date=Dec 29 2012, 05:51 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Dec 29 2012, 05:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053013"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think it would just shift the discussion to "Why do I have a gimp EXO with one tech point?"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Would it? If they have to gimp the EXO to such an extent that it sucks all the fun out of it, then they have done something wrong. There is no reason they would need to 'gimp' the EXO to that extent. Balance can be achieved many ways, you know that Torak. You can balance the EXO without actually changing a single thing about the EXO. It's the big picture we should be looking at.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that other problems (Hit Reg) need to be addressed while allowing the player base to "mature" so that balancing can occur.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While I agree that hit registration is a much more pressing problem, I don't think we have to 'sit' on this for months before considering it. This isn't a complex change.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then we can address the "fun" factor of the frequency/availability of EXOs. If after the hit reg is fixed and people learn to play as a team the EXOs are still as rare as Onos were in the earlier stages of NS1, then we can start to discuss removing the tech point requirement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If we look back at the release of the game, the developers confirmed that as the player base 'matured' the win/loss ratio swung hard to the aliens. What started as 50/50 on release day ended up as 60/40 for aliens. The more we wait the worse it will get.
However I'm not looking to change the balance of the game, I'm looking to get the EXO into more hands. They can easily balance around it. As I said further up, when every single ad for the game is showing off the 'mechs', then it stands to reason you don't want the people to get into the game and find out that they can rarely get to play it because of 'balance'. Get people into their machines and then alter the balance as needed.
Gameplay trumps all. Balance can be fixed, but without good gameplay you won't sell copies.
<!--quoteo(post=2053115:date=Dec 29 2012, 09:41 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Dec 29 2012, 09:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053115"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If gameplay trumps all, get rid of exo/onos entirely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->OK, I'll bite. What's your justification? How do you feel the Onos/EXO negatively impact gameplay?
<!--quoteo(post=2052976:date=Dec 29 2012, 02:30 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 29 2012, 02:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052976"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't have a problem with needing the second CC in order to carry out the<b> *research*</b>, my issue is that the <b>*purchase*</b> shouldn't be tied to the second CC. Again, this is not about balance - since that can be changed - this is about FUN. People like playing in the 'mechs', but unlike the alien side, the marines may never get a chance to purchase one, despite saving for one all game.
That's just not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There need to be consequences for winning or losing throughout the game. One of the consequences of losing your second CC is that you lose some of your tech along with it.
Why is the lack of fun from not being able to play exosuit because the game ends before exosuits come out any less important than the lack of fun from not being able to buy exosuit if your second CC dies? It seems like you're drawing an incredibly arbitrary line in the sand with respect to what "fun" is.
Personally, I find fun to be that back and forth power struggle. As aliens, killing the marine's second CC is a huge victory because rips open a huge hole in the marine tech due to no new jp or exos. The marines should know this and defend their second CC. There's no back and forth if there is no loss and gain. You seem to be advocating a scenario where factions never lose their tech.
I think you're also being extremely thoughtless with your respect to the current balance of the game. You constantly write things like "forget balance" and "we'll balance it later" without realizing that bad balance = not fun.
To sum it up: a) your idea makes the game less fun in a comprehensive sense with respect to the flow of the game b) your idea could break balance when it is inevitably extrapolated to research beyond just the exosuit (ie jp turtles, leap even on 1 hive, etc) c) your idea is completely arbitrary as to where "fun" begins
<!--quoteo(post=2053121:date=Dec 29 2012, 07:51 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 29 2012, 07:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053121"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK, I'll bite. What's your justification? How do you feel the Onos/EXO negatively impact gameplay?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll answer this because I agree that onos and exosuits are the reason why end game is so terrible in NS2.
First, the onos and the exosuits are both very low skill units. IE a great marine will always lose 1v1 versus an onos. Compare this with the rest of the game. In any other scenario, the marine has a fighting chance against the lifeform he is facing. Even early game LMG vs lerk or mid game jp vs fade, you can kill your opponent if you significantly out play them. The aliens have a clear advantage due to their pres investment, but it isn't so overwhelming that skill becomes a minor factor. As a marine, there is nothing you can do to out play an onos. It's easy to hit them and they can soak up so much damage that it's hopeless to fight without at least 3 marines present. An onos significantly eliminates the skill factor in a supposedly skill-based game.
The exosuit is better (ie weaker) than the onos with regards to innate power because the exosuit's strength is in its incredibly damage output and still requires some skill-based aiming. The onos' strength stems from its skill-independent gigantic health pool. The exosuit still suffers from the same problem as above, though it is mitigated some against low skill pubs (unlike the onos) because exosuits die faster than onos. (I've seen you write about this, too.)
The exosuit doesn't require much aiming, though. It's like the heavy in TF2. The spread is so large that you generally just point in the direction you want to shoot and you hit things. This is a problem because the damage output of an exosuit is insane. As a fade, you can die before you even see your health start to tick down due to the game's built in latency. That's really unfun for alien players.
Basically, these units are superweapons that frustrate their non exo/onos opponents with sense of hopelessness and a feeling of irrelevance. Players feel like pawns instead of rooks or bishops as soon as the onos or exos hit the field because the onos and exos are unnecessarily powerful in certain aspects to the point where they make other lifeforms/weapons irrelevant.
(in regards to the current state of the game): I think exos aren't as bad as onos in regards to ruining end game because the exosuits have a huge mobility disadvantage. I don't enjoy fighting exosuits, it's actually quite frustrating to lose 3/4 of your health as a fade when you're in LOS of the miniguns for half a second. But they're actually beatable in small scale settings. The onos is not. The onos is basically a complete upgrade over every basic alien life form. It's the best against infantry, the best against exosuits, the best against buildings, and still fast enough that mobility is never an issue with emergency charge. The onos needs to be given the same weakness as the exosuit -- immobility. An onos shouldn't be able to chase down jetpacks. An onos shouldn't be able to harass RTs. They should be the slow moving siege breaker like the exosuit. I also think that exosuits need to have their damage reduced and their screen clutter cleaned up. The exosuit's second biggest disadvantage is that your screen is stupendously obscured by all the immersive crap.
<!--quoteo(post=2053124:date=Dec 29 2012, 09:55 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 29 2012, 09:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053124"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There need to be consequences for winning or losing throughout the game. One of the consequences of losing your second CC is that you lose some of your tech along with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><b>I don't have a problem with that. </b> Let me repeat, I agree with your point above.
In fact it was suggested that arms lab upgrades would be better suited to be tied to the second CC. I offered that if we spread the current three upgrades into four upgrades, we could tie two upgrades to each CC. So if you lose your second CC you lose arms/weapons upgrade levels 3 & 4. There is your consequence. Instead of just preventing EXOs from being purchased, (which might mean absolutely nothing if people don't have the res for it) tying arms lab upgrades would affect every marine. It would also help prevent turtles since marines wouldn't have their fully upgraded LMGs after they lost the second CC. No more 5 second Onos kills when attempting to end the game.
There is more than one way to do things. You should read through the build notes, you would be surprised at how much the game has changed. Nothing is set in stone, nor should it be. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is the lack of fun from not being able to play exosuit because the game ends before exosuits come out any less important than the lack of fun from not being able to buy exosuit if your second CC dies? It seems like you're drawing an incredibly arbitrary line in the sand with respect to what "fun" is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No arbitrary line. I'm bringing it down to the lowest common denominator. Have the marines paid for the extensive and expensive upgrades to unlock EXOs? Yes? Then let people with the res have their fun. Full stop.
It costs a massive amount of res to buy/research what is necessary to make dual-mini EXOs purchasable. What is needed?
Armory - 10 tres Advanced armory - 20 tres (+90 seconds) Second command chair: 15 tres Prototype lab: 40 tres EXOsuit research: 30 tres (+90 seconds) Dual-Mini research: 20 tres (+60 seconds)
That's 135 tres just to UNLOCK the 75 pres Dual-Mini EXOsuit. You still have to have players pay for it.
It's not like I'm suggesting that we waive all the requirements, since I'm not. I still support that they need to have the second CC to BUILD the proto lab, and to COMPLETE the research. What I am saying is that once the marines have paid their research dues, that the EXOsuits are unlocked. Let the players have their toys.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I find fun to be that back and forth power struggle. As aliens, killing the marine's second CC is a huge victory because rips open a huge hole in the marine tech due to no new jp or exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As I said, there is more than one way to provide a consequence for losing that second CC. I'm not looking to make the marines into a one CC team here.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're also being extremely thoughtless with your respect to the current balance of the game. You constantly write things like "forget balance" and "we'll balance it later" without realizing that bad balance = not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're taking my remarks out of context. I have said forget balance with respect to the decision since balance is EASY. You can balance anything against anything by tweaking variables.
I recall working with Chris Taylor, and he summed it up perfectly. (paraphrased)
"First make it fun, then make it balanced. If you try and balance a game before you make it fun, your hands will be tied because any changes you want to make will unbalance the game."
Fun has to come first. Bottom line. You can't put balance ahead of fun because you'll preclude any changes to the game to make it fun.
The EXOs are fun. The EXOs are being used to sell this game. If they are such a big selling point, then let's get people into the driver's seat. Give the players their toys, and then balance around it. If losing the second CC doesn't restrict EXO purchases anymore, then make it restrict something else.
This isn't going to suddenly make the game fun. It's a very rare situation in which you've been able to research your exosuit, yet lost your second CC without being in 1-base-turtle-mode.
I also understand that there is more than one way to balance the game, but you've failed to prove why your way is better than the current way. The fact that you call balance "easy" completely undermines your credibility. There are very few a-symmetric multiplayer games that can call themselves balanced and none that were done easily or quickly.
I'm not taking your remarks out of context because you're pushing this idea as if balance is irrelevant. It's not irrelevant for a live, paid for game. We're not in beta where UWE can try every random "fun" idea. As a long time NS2 player, the only things I want them to implement are well thought out and balanced changes/additions. This thread has left me unconvinced that there would be a noticeable positive effect on "fun" and comes with a huge risk of imbalance or even loss of "fun."
Two important things to note - aliens loosing their second hive early game in NS1 was not instant gg, very far from it if they still had fade(s). Same is true for NS2, loosing that second chair reasonably early doesnt mean GG. Now if your talking end game where both teams are fully teched, why shouldnt loosing your second base put you at a significant dis-advantage? The mechanic of loosing those bases is working quite fine, there is no balance issue there. Now as for getting exos at anytime because you have the res, that would be a turtling nightmare, and breaks the asymmetry that works perfectly fine. There are plenty of other balance issues that need fixing before this would ever potentially be an issue, and IMO fighting exos is not fun currently as their damage is quite random and they basically can instant kill any aliens sans onos. Saying people are buying the game because of exos is quite false, and your also making the alien team suffer if they need to fight against them constantly.
Also determining balance based on a small selection of pub games is really not useful, if your going to take feedback from those game it needs to be very broad to get a usable picture.
<!--quoteo(post=2053151:date=Dec 29 2012, 10:48 PM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 29 2012, 10:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053151"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This isn't going to suddenly make the game fun. It's a very rare situation in which you've been able to research your exosuit, yet lost your second CC without being in 1-base-turtle-mode.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've seen it quite often, but if you feel it isn't that common, then perhaps we need to make EXOs that much more accessible. These units need to be made part of the game, and not something rare that usually only gets used when aliens are getting rolled anyway.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also understand that there is more than one way to balance the game, but you've failed to prove why your way is better than the current way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->There is no "my way". I have said I don't care how they balance it. I made a suggestion off hand, but it doesn't matter how they balance it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that you call balance "easy" completely undermines your credibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I do this for a living, and I'll say it again.
<b>Balance is easy.</b>
Honestly, ask any developer what takes more work; developing an asset, skinning it, coding the movements, creating hitboxes etc... OR Tweaking a few numerical balance variables.
Yeah, balance is easy. It can take a month to create an asset that can be balanced in a day. Don't talk to me about credibility, talk to the developers and they will say the same thing. Any of the creative teams I have worked with have never balked at tweaking balance. All they have to do is have a quick conference, make some suggestions, tweak some numbers and then punt it to the internal testers to hash out whether it works or not. In the big scheme of things this is easy.
Like I said, don't take my word for it, ask the developers and see what answer you get. Balancing an asset is far easier than creating it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not taking your remarks out of context because you're pushing this idea as if balance is irrelevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes you are because I've said no such thing. I've said that balance doesn't matter with respect to making changes since balance can always be altered. Of course it is relevant, but it is not relevant to what we are discussing.
You seem to be the type of person who never wants the game to change. AKA, "learn to play nub" style of opinion that suggests the game isn't the problem, it's only the uneducated peons who are the real problem. The issue with that is that those 'peons' are the one paying for this game.
All of the NS2 ads show off the 'mechs', and people buy in expecting to play with them, only to find out that they are lucky if they can do so once every 10 games. If we are going to sell the game on the backs of EXOs, then give the people EXOs. Either that or stop trying to sucker in players with cool looking 'mechs' only to tell them that they can't play with them because it would offend your sensibilities.
This game is going to sink or swim on word of mouth, and so far the performance problems and hit registration issues aren't doing anyone any favours. Why people feel the need to demand we hide away some of the most enjoyable parts of the game is beyond me.
Anyway, I'm not on this project. I couldn't be involved with NS this time around because of contractual obligations, so I will be content to offer my opinion with the rest of the masses. In my opinion, the EXO is currently an underused asset that should be made so it shows up as often as the Onos. Balance it however is needed to make that happen, but hiding the EXOs away isn't doing anyone any favours.
<!--quoteo(post=2051477:date=Dec 26 2012, 03:08 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 26 2012, 03:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051477"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hey yeah... That explains everything right? Anytime anyone questions anything about the game, let's just say "asymmetric game" and tell them to gtfo right? I mean, we can send the developers home now. Any issues that come up can easily be solved by saying "asymmetric game", amirite?
Yuno, people thought the same thing when everyone said that the 6minute Onos was "asymmetrically balanced" and needed no changes. Then along come the developers who yanked that right out of the game when they made it need 3 hives. I guess it wasn't "asymmetric balanced" after all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You see, I remember this distinctly different. The 6 minute onos was making competitive play frustrating and bad for many different legitimate reasons, and most people were arguing it was bad, and a small minority were playing the "asymmetrically balanced" card.
Asymmetry in NS2 is a real thing. On a very fundamental level with NS2 you can never make the assumption that "because marines have X thus aliens must have Y". If there is a REASON why pres exos being tied to second hive is unbalanced in favor of aliens while pres onos being free of hive requirements is not or vice versa... when then you have a point.
The simple observation that a teir 3 tech item has a requirement for one team that the other team doesn't need to meet is meaningless.
However, not having exo's spawning at 1 Tech Point SIGNIFIGNATLY helps reduce the situation in which marines can turtle for 2 years without gaining ground, and it's pretty clearly not the primary reason why the game is alien biased, as very few games even get to that point.
Having 2 CCs is not a steep requirement. If you can't manage that then you are losing badly. This is no different from the heavy restrictions on one hive aliens.
Yea balancing rts games (if thats why you brought up Chris) is totally different than an RTS/FPS hybrid that has each unit greatly effected by skill. NS1 took a long time to balance and NS2 will take even longer with the more complex and restricted gameplay it has currently. Its not as easy as changing some numbers, and I dare say that your really quite far off if your talking about balance and then 2 CC exos, as that most likely wouldnt effect 60/40 win rates that highly (just the minority of games that last >30/40 minutes).
Why dont you ask CS:GO devs about balance, or SC2. Im sure not one of those people would tell you its at all easy. As I said before, balancing a casual RTS or single player game is worlds different than a PVP skill based shooter.
<!--quoteo(post=2053192:date=Dec 30 2012, 12:21 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 30 2012, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What video games have you balanced?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Personally I find the OP's suggestion completely reasonable.
I've been in the games industry about 12 years now, balancing games like Mechwarrior 4 (+expansions) and Rise of Nations (+expansions), among many other more recent titles.
I'm also a fairly capable NS2 player (being first place in 90-95% of public games should rate at least "fairly capable", right?)
Really the only reasonable argument presented in this thread is that marine holdouts are already ridiculous on 1 tech point. But that's a completely separate problem and should be solved separately. (And <i>should </i>be solved. Either by reducing Marine holdout power, or by giving Aliens similarly powerful 1-tech holdouts.)
So keep exo availability tied to the proto lab, and require research (which requires 2 tech points), but allow marines to buy Budget Exos with 1 tech point. Sounds perfectly reasonable.
Its not that its unreasonable/reasonable, more that its just not needed. Allowing people to get exos on 1 cc cannot be compared to 1 hive onos, as your 1 cc exo can be fully upgraded (unless your suggesting other major changes go along with it). Now if it's just 1 minigun exo like you suggest I dont really think that would matter that much, as the DPS of that one minigun is not enough to be game changing. Marine holdout power stems from other issues with game balance such as respawn speed, armory healing speed, and also third tier alien abilities usefullness. Add in a couple dual minigun exos with macs, turrets and other building blocks and you can make quite a fortress. Fixing that requires adjustments to many parts of the game, including alien early game.
There's a huge difference from a capable player to one that actually understands all of the nuances of the game, and can provide clear objective feedback on a variety of aspects of the game. You do not need to be good to have a good understanding of balance... However those players are few and far between. And as I said before, balancing casual RTS games is nothing like balancing a skill based pvp shooter, why this is so difficult to understand is beyond me.
1) The exo is the antithesis of fun for anyone who can actually play the game. 2) Exo being on a picture is the most ridiculous justification for 1-cc exo I have ever heard. 3) Balancing NS is hard. 4) We're not in beta so we can't throw fun ideas (that aren't fun) at the wall and hope they stick. 5) Stop comparing aliens with marines 6) Making late-game tech common makes late-game tech boring and predictable. Jumping in an exo/onos should at least <i>feel</i> special.
<!--quoteo(post=2053196:date=Dec 30 2012, 02:48 AM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Dec 30 2012, 02:48 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->not having exo's spawning at 1 Tech Point SIGNIFIGNATLY helps reduce the situation in which marines can turtle for 2 years without gaining ground<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->It doesn't though. Aside from the fact that I'm not suggesting removing the second CC requirement to build a proto lab or for research, the reality is that if the marines are 'back on their heels' they won't have more than one res node. If they have one res node they won't be pumping out out any EXOs that they can turtle with. Why? Well with one res node it would take a marine 40 minutes to get 50 res and 60 minutes to get 75 res.
My assertion if that if people have saved for an EXO, and if the marine team has researched the necessary tech <b>*with a second CC necessary to do so*</b> then let the poor saps have thier EXOs. It's like in the other thread where someone is saying people shouldn't go comm if they are not a pro. What is it with people that they want to keep players away from the 'upper tech' in this game?
<!--quoteo(post=2053204:date=Dec 30 2012, 03:32 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Dec 30 2012, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having 2 CCs is not a steep requirement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And I agree with you Zek, as far as the research is concerned.
It costs a massive amount of res to buy/research what is necessary to make dual-mini EXOs purchasable. What is needed?
Armory - 10 tres Advanced armory - 20 tres (+90 seconds) Second command chair: 15 tres Prototype lab: 40 tres EXOsuit research: 30 tres (+90 seconds) Dual-Mini research: 20 tres (+60 seconds)
That's 135 tres just to UNLOCK the 75 pres Dual-Mini EXOsuit. You still have to have players pay for it.
I have no problem with the prerequisite that there be a second CC to build a proto lab, and I have no problem with the prerequisite that there be a second CC built in order to complete the EXO research. No problem. What I'm saying is that once the marines have paid for the unlock, let the players play it.
I'm not suggesting they become stock equipment, (although you gotta admit that would be kinda cool) I'm just saying that if the team is able to build and maintain that second CC long enough to build their proto lab and finish all the research needed for EXOs, then give the players their toys. If the tech has been fully researched - while the second CC is alive - then if players have the res, let them buy them. This is not earth shattering here.
<!--quoteo(post=2053192:date=Dec 30 2012, 02:21 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 30 2012, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What video games have you balanced?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->My contract and NDA prohibit me from saying anything about that, I'm sure you know that right?
<!--quoteo(post=2053205:date=Dec 30 2012, 03:36 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Dec 30 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea balancing rts games (if thats why you brought up Chris) is totally different than an RTS/FPS hybrid that has each unit greatly effected by skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I brought up Chris' remarks since they apply globally to game design. Fun has to come before balance, not the other way around. Otherwise you'll tie your hands if you can't make changes because you are worried they might 'upset balance'. Balance is easy to fix (relatively speaking) and so there is no reason not to put 'fun' front and center.
'Fun' sells copies, and as much as people may be loathe to admit it, this is a BUSINESS. Perhaps working in the business I see things from a different perspective, but people need to understand that the game will sink or swim on how fun it is. You can have a game that is impeccably balanced, but if it isn't fun it won't sell copies. That's the bottom line here.
<!--quoteo(post=2053220:date=Dec 30 2012, 06:35 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Dec 30 2012, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Allowing people to get exos on 1 cc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again, I'll repeat myself, I'm not suggesting to remove the second CC requirement to build the proto lab or to start/complete the research. I am saying that once the research has been completed, the only requirement for purchase should be whether the player has the res to pay for it.
rhombusLerk QueenJoin Date: 2011-06-23Member: 106055Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--quoteo(post=2053342:date=Dec 30 2012, 12:13 PM:name=eh?)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (eh? @ Dec 30 2012, 12:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053342"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lego Star Wars would never be the same without his expert advice about how many red and blue bits to put in the palm tree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2053209:date=Dec 30 2012, 02:07 AM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Dec 30 2012, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053209"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've been in the games industry about 12 years now, balancing games like Mechwarrior 4 (+expansions) [...]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok so who do I have to yell at about not allowing you to store missiles and missile launchers in my arms?!?
<!--quoteo(post=2053336:date=Dec 30 2012, 01:45 PM:name=Tweadle)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweadle @ Dec 30 2012, 01:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053336"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->NDAs that prohibit talking about which game you helped balance in the past?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm not allowed to say anything about anything with regard to my current employer. Anything and everything goes though media relations. They call it the 'twitter clause' because certain people can't seem to keep their mouths shut and they go saying 'questionable' things about the stuff they work/worked on. I can say that prior to getting recruited to my current employer I was working with Microsoft for a number of years. (and if you search WAY back in the forums here, you'll see posts where I mentioned that.)
However, the only reason anyone would want to know personal information about me would be to attack me with it, so why in the world would I give anyone the ammunition to do so? :)
Comments
It seems the worm has turned; this was the aliens lot in life in NS1.
I feel it is more about troop positioning, momentum, and casualties then the actual loss of tech. Quite often when you have lost a tech spot your team is either too dead, or out of position to stop the momentum of losing the next spot. This is slightly less of a problem for marines due to their natural ranged advantage, they can turtle much better; just find a nice door to focus fire. Power nodes do lessen the turtle but I agree that they are a bit of an "I Win" button. Not sure how to fix that. The real mettle of a team can be how they respond to the loss of a tech point. I have seen both teams come back. I have seen extended periods of base trading go on as well.
Unfortunately there is a degree of "working as intended" and "learn to play" which hits the marines harder than aliens. This is because the Commander's job is much harder than the Khammander's. Personally, I see this as being offset by the natural ranged advantage the marines enjoy. Once better Commanders start to show up things will change.
Secondly, you are mixing two very different issues. The issue of people not being able to buy a pres EXO without a second CC is <b>completely independent</b> of the issue that marines tend to lose when they lose their second CC. The first issue happens *after* the second issue. The two are not linked.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you really think that marines should be able to buy exosuits at any time then why can't I buy shotguns without them being researched? Why do I have to wait for jetpacks to be researched before I can buy jetpacks. I want to play with jetpacks. Let me buy jetpacks whenever I want. I earned the pres, where is my jetpack?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->This is fallacious reasoning and you know it. The issue is not that there shouldn't be research involved, the issue is that once that research HAS been bought and paid for, then people should be able to purchase their toys. If marines can do everything needed to finish dual-mini research, then the players should have the opportunity to buy their toys.
I don't have a problem with needing the second CC in order to carry out the<b> *research*</b>, my issue is that the <b>*purchase*</b> shouldn't be tied to the second CC. Again, this is not about balance - since that can be changed - this is about FUN. People like playing in the 'mechs', but unlike the alien side, the marines may never get a chance to purchase one, despite saving for one all game.
That's just not fun.
That's just not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How is this different than losing Carapace, or Celerity as an Onos? Hasn't the Khamm already researched them despite it being "lost" when it gets destroyed? No cara/regen is usually make or break for Onos. One hive Onos isn't fun; its mostly running. It's like playing a big fat skulk. If we want to untie EXOs from CC's then they'd have to be like playing a big fat marine without the second CC.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Power nodes do lessen the turtle but I agree that (lost tech points) are a bit of an "I Win" button. Not sure how to fix that. The real mettle of a team can be how they respond to the loss of a tech point. I have seen both teams come back. I have seen extended periods of base trading go on as well.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes I have as well, although it was when both sides were pretty green. Just before NS2 went on special, when the community was at its most experienced, a lost tech point was pretty much the beginning of the end. Yeah there were some 'hail mary' attempts at comebacks, but they were few and far between.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unfortunately there is a degree of "working as intended" and "learn to play" which hits the marines harder than aliens. This is because the Commander's job is much harder than the Khammander's. Personally, I see this as being offset by the natural ranged advantage the marines enjoy. Once better Commanders start to show up things will change.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're totally right, but the marines also need to operate on a much more coordinated level than the aliens. If marines don't work as a team, it doesn't matter if you have the best comm in the game.
It's also why, as the devs found out, when both sides gain experience it's the aliens that become more powerful. Frankly I was surprised when the win ratio started at nearly 50/50 and then went 60/40 for the aliens without the devs touching the game at all. This is because, imho, the marine team is so dependant on the willingness of individual marines to work as a group. Without that teamwork they are doomed from the start. Yet we still lack the means to encourage that teamwork.
Even with people buying their pres EXO, they still don't understand that they are so fragile in that leaving base without a welder on your tail is essentially suicide. Every aspect of marines requires that kind of teamwork, which certainly does raise the bar for the marine team.
How is this different than losing Carapace, or Celerity as an Onos? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Let's be fair here, an upgrade is not the same as a lifeform. Losing carapace is like losing an arms lab. Both will have a very marked effect on all players on both sides. A 580 armor EXO dropping to 400 armor when an arms lab goes down is just as bad as losing carapace as an Onos.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->One hive Onos isn't fun; its mostly running. It's like playing a big fat skulk. If we want to untie EXOs from CC's then they'd have to be like playing a big fat marine without the second CC.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Like I said before, I have no issue with 'balancing it out' if that is necessary. That's the easy part. If they did untie the EXO it wouldn't take too many playtests to see how that impacted balance. If it did, they could alter balance to compensate. I'm not concerned with balance at this stage of the game since that's something that can be altered.
The payoff is that if they untie the EXO the players will have more fun. More players having fun means more people buying the game.
I think it would just shift the discussion to "Why do I have a gimp EXO with one tech point?"
Gimp EXO < EXO
Gimp EXO Fun < EXO Fun
I think that other problems (Hit Reg) need to be addressed while allowing the player base to "mature" so that balancing can occur. Then we can address the "fun" factor of the frequency/availability of EXOs. If after the hit reg is fixed and people learn to play as a team the EXOs are still as rare as Onos were in the earlier stages of NS1, then we can start to discuss removing the tech point requirement.
<!--quoteo(post=2052985:date=Dec 29 2012, 02:50 PM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Dec 29 2012, 02:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2052985"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How is this different than losing Carapace, or Celerity as an Onos? Let's be fair here, an upgrade is not the same as a lifeform. Losing carapace is like losing an arms lab. Both will have a very marked effect on all players on both sides. A 580 armor EXO dropping to 400 armor when an arms lab goes down is just as bad as losing carapace as an Onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think it is worse for the Onos, mostly because EXOs have lost half the battle if they allow too many aliens to get close. An EXO hiding down a hall/focus firing a door, with welder support is stronger than an Onos hiding around a corner with a gorge.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think that other problems (Hit Reg) need to be addressed while allowing the player base to "mature" so that balancing can occur.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->While I agree that hit registration is a much more pressing problem, I don't think we have to 'sit' on this for months before considering it. This isn't a complex change.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then we can address the "fun" factor of the frequency/availability of EXOs. If after the hit reg is fixed and people learn to play as a team the EXOs are still as rare as Onos were in the earlier stages of NS1, then we can start to discuss removing the tech point requirement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->If we look back at the release of the game, the developers confirmed that as the player base 'matured' the win/loss ratio swung hard to the aliens. What started as 50/50 on release day ended up as 60/40 for aliens. The more we wait the worse it will get.
However I'm not looking to change the balance of the game, I'm looking to get the EXO into more hands. They can easily balance around it. As I said further up, when every single ad for the game is showing off the 'mechs', then it stands to reason you don't want the people to get into the game and find out that they can rarely get to play it because of 'balance'. Get people into their machines and then alter the balance as needed.
Gameplay trumps all. Balance can be fixed, but without good gameplay you won't sell copies.
That's just not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There need to be consequences for winning or losing throughout the game. One of the consequences of losing your second CC is that you lose some of your tech along with it.
Why is the lack of fun from not being able to play exosuit because the game ends before exosuits come out any less important than the lack of fun from not being able to buy exosuit if your second CC dies? It seems like you're drawing an incredibly arbitrary line in the sand with respect to what "fun" is.
Personally, I find fun to be that back and forth power struggle. As aliens, killing the marine's second CC is a huge victory because rips open a huge hole in the marine tech due to no new jp or exos. The marines should know this and defend their second CC. There's no back and forth if there is no loss and gain. You seem to be advocating a scenario where factions never lose their tech.
I think you're also being extremely thoughtless with your respect to the current balance of the game. You constantly write things like "forget balance" and "we'll balance it later" without realizing that bad balance = not fun.
To sum it up:
a) your idea makes the game less fun in a comprehensive sense with respect to the flow of the game
b) your idea could break balance when it is inevitably extrapolated to research beyond just the exosuit (ie jp turtles, leap even on 1 hive, etc)
c) your idea is completely arbitrary as to where "fun" begins
I'll answer this because I agree that onos and exosuits are the reason why end game is so terrible in NS2.
First, the onos and the exosuits are both very low skill units. IE a great marine will always lose 1v1 versus an onos. Compare this with the rest of the game. In any other scenario, the marine has a fighting chance against the lifeform he is facing. Even early game LMG vs lerk or mid game jp vs fade, you can kill your opponent if you significantly out play them. The aliens have a clear advantage due to their pres investment, but it isn't so overwhelming that skill becomes a minor factor. As a marine, there is nothing you can do to out play an onos. It's easy to hit them and they can soak up so much damage that it's hopeless to fight without at least 3 marines present. An onos significantly eliminates the skill factor in a supposedly skill-based game.
The exosuit is better (ie weaker) than the onos with regards to innate power because the exosuit's strength is in its incredibly damage output and still requires some skill-based aiming. The onos' strength stems from its skill-independent gigantic health pool. The exosuit still suffers from the same problem as above, though it is mitigated some against low skill pubs (unlike the onos) because exosuits die faster than onos. (I've seen you write about this, too.)
The exosuit doesn't require much aiming, though. It's like the heavy in TF2. The spread is so large that you generally just point in the direction you want to shoot and you hit things. This is a problem because the damage output of an exosuit is insane. As a fade, you can die before you even see your health start to tick down due to the game's built in latency. That's really unfun for alien players.
Basically, these units are superweapons that frustrate their non exo/onos opponents with sense of hopelessness and a feeling of irrelevance. Players feel like pawns instead of rooks or bishops as soon as the onos or exos hit the field because the onos and exos are unnecessarily powerful in certain aspects to the point where they make other lifeforms/weapons irrelevant.
(in regards to the current state of the game):
I think exos aren't as bad as onos in regards to ruining end game because the exosuits have a huge mobility disadvantage. I don't enjoy fighting exosuits, it's actually quite frustrating to lose 3/4 of your health as a fade when you're in LOS of the miniguns for half a second. But they're actually beatable in small scale settings. The onos is not. The onos is basically a complete upgrade over every basic alien life form. It's the best against infantry, the best against exosuits, the best against buildings, and still fast enough that mobility is never an issue with emergency charge. The onos needs to be given the same weakness as the exosuit -- immobility. An onos shouldn't be able to chase down jetpacks. An onos shouldn't be able to harass RTs. They should be the slow moving siege breaker like the exosuit. I also think that exosuits need to have their damage reduced and their screen clutter cleaned up. The exosuit's second biggest disadvantage is that your screen is stupendously obscured by all the immersive crap.
In fact it was suggested that arms lab upgrades would be better suited to be tied to the second CC. I offered that if we spread the current three upgrades into four upgrades, we could tie two upgrades to each CC. So if you lose your second CC you lose arms/weapons upgrade levels 3 & 4. There is your consequence. Instead of just preventing EXOs from being purchased, (which might mean absolutely nothing if people don't have the res for it) tying arms lab upgrades would affect every marine. It would also help prevent turtles since marines wouldn't have their fully upgraded LMGs after they lost the second CC. No more 5 second Onos kills when attempting to end the game.
There is more than one way to do things. You should read through the build notes, you would be surprised at how much the game has changed. Nothing is set in stone, nor should it be.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why is the lack of fun from not being able to play exosuit because the game ends before exosuits come out any less important than the lack of fun from not being able to buy exosuit if your second CC dies? It seems like you're drawing an incredibly arbitrary line in the sand with respect to what "fun" is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->No arbitrary line. I'm bringing it down to the lowest common denominator. Have the marines paid for the extensive and expensive upgrades to unlock EXOs? Yes? Then let people with the res have their fun. Full stop.
It costs a massive amount of res to buy/research what is necessary to make dual-mini EXOs purchasable. What is needed?
Armory - 10 tres
Advanced armory - 20 tres (+90 seconds)
Second command chair: 15 tres
Prototype lab: 40 tres
EXOsuit research: 30 tres (+90 seconds)
Dual-Mini research: 20 tres (+60 seconds)
That's 135 tres just to UNLOCK the 75 pres Dual-Mini EXOsuit. You still have to have players pay for it.
It's not like I'm suggesting that we waive all the requirements, since I'm not. I still support that they need to have the second CC to BUILD the proto lab, and to COMPLETE the research. What I am saying is that once the marines have paid their research dues, that the EXOsuits are unlocked. Let the players have their toys.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally, I find fun to be that back and forth power struggle. As aliens, killing the marine's second CC is a huge victory because rips open a huge hole in the marine tech due to no new jp or exos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->As I said, there is more than one way to provide a consequence for losing that second CC. I'm not looking to make the marines into a one CC team here.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think you're also being extremely thoughtless with your respect to the current balance of the game. You constantly write things like "forget balance" and "we'll balance it later" without realizing that bad balance = not fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->You're taking my remarks out of context. I have said forget balance with respect to the decision since balance is EASY. You can balance anything against anything by tweaking variables.
I recall working with Chris Taylor, and he summed it up perfectly. (paraphrased)
"First make it fun, then make it balanced. If you try and balance a game before you make it fun, your hands will be tied because any changes you want to make will unbalance the game."
Fun has to come first. Bottom line. You can't put balance ahead of fun because you'll preclude any changes to the game to make it fun.
The EXOs are fun. The EXOs are being used to sell this game. If they are such a big selling point, then let's get people into the driver's seat. Give the players their toys, and then balance around it. If losing the second CC doesn't restrict EXO purchases anymore, then make it restrict something else.
There is more than one way to balance a game.
I also understand that there is more than one way to balance the game, but you've failed to prove why your way is better than the current way. The fact that you call balance "easy" completely undermines your credibility. There are very few a-symmetric multiplayer games that can call themselves balanced and none that were done easily or quickly.
I'm not taking your remarks out of context because you're pushing this idea as if balance is irrelevant. It's not irrelevant for a live, paid for game. We're not in beta where UWE can try every random "fun" idea. As a long time NS2 player, the only things I want them to implement are well thought out and balanced changes/additions. This thread has left me unconvinced that there would be a noticeable positive effect on "fun" and comes with a huge risk of imbalance or even loss of "fun."
It's just not worth the risk.
Also determining balance based on a small selection of pub games is really not useful, if your going to take feedback from those game it needs to be very broad to get a usable picture.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I also understand that there is more than one way to balance the game, but you've failed to prove why your way is better than the current way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->There is no "my way". I have said I don't care how they balance it. I made a suggestion off hand, but it doesn't matter how they balance it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that you call balance "easy" completely undermines your credibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I do this for a living, and I'll say it again.
<b>Balance is easy.</b>
Honestly, ask any developer what takes more work; developing an asset, skinning it, coding the movements, creating hitboxes etc... OR Tweaking a few numerical balance variables.
Yeah, balance is easy. It can take a month to create an asset that can be balanced in a day. Don't talk to me about credibility, talk to the developers and they will say the same thing. Any of the creative teams I have worked with have never balked at tweaking balance. All they have to do is have a quick conference, make some suggestions, tweak some numbers and then punt it to the internal testers to hash out whether it works or not. In the big scheme of things this is easy.
Like I said, don't take my word for it, ask the developers and see what answer you get. Balancing an asset is far easier than creating it.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not taking your remarks out of context because you're pushing this idea as if balance is irrelevant.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Yes you are because I've said no such thing. I've said that balance doesn't matter with respect to making changes since balance can always be altered. Of course it is relevant, but it is not relevant to what we are discussing.
You seem to be the type of person who never wants the game to change. AKA, "learn to play nub" style of opinion that suggests the game isn't the problem, it's only the uneducated peons who are the real problem. The issue with that is that those 'peons' are the one paying for this game.
All of the NS2 ads show off the 'mechs', and people buy in expecting to play with them, only to find out that they are lucky if they can do so once every 10 games. If we are going to sell the game on the backs of EXOs, then give the people EXOs. Either that or stop trying to sucker in players with cool looking 'mechs' only to tell them that they can't play with them because it would offend your sensibilities.
This game is going to sink or swim on word of mouth, and so far the performance problems and hit registration issues aren't doing anyone any favours. Why people feel the need to demand we hide away some of the most enjoyable parts of the game is beyond me.
Anyway, I'm not on this project. I couldn't be involved with NS this time around because of contractual obligations, so I will be content to offer my opinion with the rest of the masses. In my opinion, the EXO is currently an underused asset that should be made so it shows up as often as the Onos. Balance it however is needed to make that happen, but hiding the EXOs away isn't doing anyone any favours.
Yuno, people thought the same thing when everyone said that the 6minute Onos was "asymmetrically balanced" and needed no changes. Then along come the developers who yanked that right out of the game when they made it need 3 hives. I guess it wasn't "asymmetric balanced" after all.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You see, I remember this distinctly different. The 6 minute onos was making competitive play frustrating and bad for many different legitimate reasons, and most people were arguing it was bad, and a small minority were playing the "asymmetrically balanced" card.
Asymmetry in NS2 is a real thing. On a very fundamental level with NS2 you can never make the assumption that "because marines have X thus aliens must have Y". If there is a REASON why pres exos being tied to second hive is unbalanced in favor of aliens while pres onos being free of hive requirements is not or vice versa... when then you have a point.
The simple observation that a teir 3 tech item has a requirement for one team that the other team doesn't need to meet is meaningless.
However, not having exo's spawning at 1 Tech Point SIGNIFIGNATLY helps reduce the situation in which marines can turtle for 2 years without gaining ground, and it's pretty clearly not the primary reason why the game is alien biased, as very few games even get to that point.
Why dont you ask CS:GO devs about balance, or SC2. Im sure not one of those people would tell you its at all easy. As I said before, balancing a casual RTS or single player game is worlds different than a PVP skill based shooter.
Personally I find the OP's suggestion completely reasonable.
I've been in the games industry about 12 years now, balancing games like Mechwarrior 4 (+expansions) and Rise of Nations (+expansions), among many other more recent titles.
I'm also a fairly capable NS2 player (being first place in 90-95% of public games should rate at least "fairly capable", right?)
Really the only reasonable argument presented in this thread is that marine holdouts are already ridiculous on 1 tech point. But that's a completely separate problem and should be solved separately. (And <i>should </i>be solved. Either by reducing Marine holdout power, or by giving Aliens similarly powerful 1-tech holdouts.)
So keep exo availability tied to the proto lab, and require research (which requires 2 tech points), but allow marines to buy Budget Exos with 1 tech point. Sounds perfectly reasonable.
There's a huge difference from a capable player to one that actually understands all of the nuances of the game, and can provide clear objective feedback on a variety of aspects of the game. You do not need to be good to have a good understanding of balance... However those players are few and far between. And as I said before, balancing casual RTS games is nothing like balancing a skill based pvp shooter, why this is so difficult to understand is beyond me.
2) Exo being on a picture is the most ridiculous justification for 1-cc exo I have ever heard.
3) Balancing NS is hard.
4) We're not in beta so we can't throw fun ideas (that aren't fun) at the wall and hope they stick.
5) Stop comparing aliens with marines
6) Making late-game tech common makes late-game tech boring and predictable. Jumping in an exo/onos should at least <i>feel</i> special.
My assertion if that if people have saved for an EXO, and if the marine team has researched the necessary tech <b>*with a second CC necessary to do so*</b> then let the poor saps have thier EXOs. It's like in the other thread where someone is saying people shouldn't go comm if they are not a pro. What is it with people that they want to keep players away from the 'upper tech' in this game?
<!--quoteo(post=2053204:date=Dec 30 2012, 03:32 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Dec 30 2012, 03:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Having 2 CCs is not a steep requirement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->And I agree with you Zek, as far as the research is concerned.
It costs a massive amount of res to buy/research what is necessary to make dual-mini EXOs purchasable. What is needed?
Armory - 10 tres
Advanced armory - 20 tres (+90 seconds)
Second command chair: 15 tres
Prototype lab: 40 tres
EXOsuit research: 30 tres (+90 seconds)
Dual-Mini research: 20 tres (+60 seconds)
That's 135 tres just to UNLOCK the 75 pres Dual-Mini EXOsuit. You still have to have players pay for it.
I have no problem with the prerequisite that there be a second CC to build a proto lab, and I have no problem with the prerequisite that there be a second CC built in order to complete the EXO research. No problem. What I'm saying is that once the marines have paid for the unlock, let the players play it.
I'm not suggesting they become stock equipment, (although you gotta admit that would be kinda cool) I'm just saying that if the team is able to build and maintain that second CC long enough to build their proto lab and finish all the research needed for EXOs, then give the players their toys. If the tech has been fully researched - while the second CC is alive - then if players have the res, let them buy them. This is not earth shattering here.
<!--quoteo(post=2053192:date=Dec 30 2012, 02:21 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Dec 30 2012, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What video games have you balanced?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->My contract and NDA prohibit me from saying anything about that, I'm sure you know that right?
<!--quoteo(post=2053205:date=Dec 30 2012, 03:36 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Dec 30 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yea balancing rts games (if thats why you brought up Chris) is totally different than an RTS/FPS hybrid that has each unit greatly effected by skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I brought up Chris' remarks since they apply globally to game design. Fun has to come before balance, not the other way around. Otherwise you'll tie your hands if you can't make changes because you are worried they might 'upset balance'. Balance is easy to fix (relatively speaking) and so there is no reason not to put 'fun' front and center.
'Fun' sells copies, and as much as people may be loathe to admit it, this is a BUSINESS. Perhaps working in the business I see things from a different perspective, but people need to understand that the game will sink or swim on how fun it is. You can have a game that is impeccably balanced, but if it isn't fun it won't sell copies. That's the bottom line here.
<!--quoteo(post=2053220:date=Dec 30 2012, 06:35 AM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Dec 30 2012, 06:35 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053220"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Allowing people to get exos on 1 cc<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Again, I'll repeat myself, I'm not suggesting to remove the second CC requirement to build the proto lab or to start/complete the research. I am saying that once the research has been completed, the only requirement for purchase should be whether the player has the res to pay for it.
Dual should definetly be a two point upgrade, and so should be dropping single exos with team resources.
LOL
Thanks for making my day. <3
Ok so who do I have to yell at about not allowing you to store missiles and missile launchers in my arms?!?
However, the only reason anyone would want to know personal information about me would be to attack me with it, so why in the world would I give anyone the ammunition to do so? :)