OP is the most intelligent person I've ever encountered on this forum. Every single point is 100% correct. However, two important things and very common mistakes are missing:
<u><b>Don't recycle RTs</b></u> They stop giving res once you hit recycle and only give back 75% relative to their health. One skulk chewing an RT will give you a maximum of 6 res when recycling it (if you react <i>instantly</i>), and also 6 res when not recycling it. Except if you don't recycle it, there's still a chance a marine might save it. If two skulks are chewing it, you get a maximum of 3 res when recycling (again, only if reacting <i>instantly</i>), and 3 res when not recycling.
Ideally, your map layout should always have every RT in "savable" walking distance anyway, but even if they're not, there's no reason or point to recycle RTs. Ever. About 90% of the time you'll get more res from not recycling. Unless you're hoping the skulk(s) will leave it once you hit recycle, which no intelligent skulk will ever do.
<u><b>Don't upgrade Weapons 1 first</b></u> There was barely any argument to justify this in NS1, and with the introduction of glancing bites in NS2, there's absolutely no plausible reason left to get W1 first. Yes, you can medspam your marines to counter the lack of armour, but are you going to be dropping meds for 5+ marines at the same time?
W1 makes skulks die from 1 bullet/pellet less, A1 gives marines 10+ bullets/pellets extra before they die. Do the maths.
<!--quoteo(post=2056441:date=Jan 5 2013, 06:57 PM:name=Juomari)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Juomari @ Jan 5 2013, 06:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056441"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i agree with most things in this topic exept early second ip.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Also don't agree with early second IP. Especially early skulk rush.
<!--quoteo(post=2056475:date=Jan 5 2013, 10:06 AM:name=halfofaheaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (halfofaheaven @ Jan 5 2013, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OP is the most intelligent person I've ever encountered on this forum. Every single point is 100% correct. However, two important things and very common mistakes are missing:
<u><b>Don't recycle RTs</b></u> They stop giving res once you hit recycle and only give back 75% relative to their health. One skulk chewing an RT will give you a maximum of 6 res when recycling it (if you react <i>instantly</i>), and also 6 res when not recycling it. Except if you don't recycle it, there's still a chance a marine might save it. If two skulks are chewing it, you get a maximum of 3 res when recycling (again, only if reacting <i>instantly</i>), and 3 res when not recycling.
Ideally, your map layout should always have every RT in "savable" walking distance anyway, but even if they're not, there's no reason or point to recycle RTs. Ever. About 90% of the time you'll get more res from not recycling. Unless you're hoping the skulk(s) will leave it once you hit recycle, which no intelligent skulk will ever do.
<u><b>Don't upgrade Weapons 1 first</b></u> There was barely any argument to justify this in NS1, and with the introduction of glancing bites in NS2, there's absolutely no plausible reason left to get W1 first. Yes, you can medspam your marines to counter the lack of armour, but are you going to be dropping meds for 5+ marines at the same time?
W1 makes skulks die from 1 bullet/pellet less, A1 gives marines 10+ bullets/pellets extra before they die. Do the maths.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely agree with recycling RT's I will have to punch someone in the face next time someone does that! :p
A second point with that, if you recycle the Rt the skulk will go and do something else, its a time waster as well.
Another thing I do (PUB) in early/ mid game is Scan advanced marine pushing areas, this shocks the skulk and gives marines confidence to go into areas (Manual motion hacking)
+1 on the scanning. Sure it costs res, but the gains you can get from winning some crucial engagements for map control makes up for it. You see your marines forming a line right outside some room because they heard a noise, just give them a scan and most of the time they'll rush in while aliens will move back. A lot of comms really don't scan enough.
I also don't drop an early second IP that often. It depends on the situation, like when it's a 10vs10 server and you see your marines getting slaughtered in the early engagements, that would be a good time to drop a second IP.
<!--quoteo(post=2056125:date=Jan 4 2013, 02:00 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Jan 4 2013, 02:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually I am suggesting that making a post that is so basic is utterly useless... If you are aiming your guide at retards it serves no purpose, anyone without a major head injury could work out your list as a start point. Secondly people whom might need this list wont be on the forums, only people who have taken the first steps on the ladder at commanding will have taken the time to search the forums for advice on commanding, these people probably already outstreched anti-retard guidelines you have written and thus them following this guide will probably cause them to be worse commanders.
Here have a competant argument. Early ALab: You write this point asthough it is a bad idea to drop an Arms Lab in the first 15 seconds of the game, what idiot on this earth would ever do this? However as most will mistread early as "Dont drop Arms Labs before phase-gates" your argument is actually conterary to what should be done in most situations. Weapons 1 should in most circumstances always come before Phase Tech.
Also, I never insulted you, I merely paraphrased your thread. However, since I am already accused, your a stupid boo boo head and I think you smell of poo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's already been a few people who've posted that it was a good informative read for them. You have no idea who all reads these forums so you shouldn't pretend to know, nor if they're "retards" or not. I can't count the number of times during my gaming experiences I read guides just as these that helped me out tremendously. And as to the quality of the guide itself, it's almost exactly the philosophy I follow and I generally have great success at commanding. Your attitude is pretty god-awful and you should just stop posting on the thread as you've said not one meaningful thing on it.
<!--quoteo(post=2056475:date=Jan 5 2013, 02:06 PM:name=halfofaheaven)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (halfofaheaven @ Jan 5 2013, 02:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OP is the most intelligent person I've ever encountered on this forum. Every single point is 100% correct. However, two important things and very common mistakes are missing:
<u><b>Don't recycle RTs</b></u> They stop giving res once you hit recycle and only give back 75% relative to their health. One skulk chewing an RT will give you a maximum of 6 res when recycling it (if you react <i>instantly</i>), and also 6 res when not recycling it. Except if you don't recycle it, there's still a chance a marine might save it. If two skulks are chewing it, you get a maximum of 3 res when recycling (again, only if reacting <i>instantly</i>), and 3 res when not recycling.
Ideally, your map layout should always have every RT in "savable" walking distance anyway, but even if they're not, there's no reason or point to recycle RTs. Ever. About 90% of the time you'll get more res from not recycling. Unless you're hoping the skulk(s) will leave it once you hit recycle, which no intelligent skulk will ever do.
<u><b>Don't upgrade Weapons 1 first</b></u> There was barely any argument to justify this in NS1, and with the introduction of glancing bites in NS2, there's absolutely no plausible reason left to get W1 first. Yes, you can medspam your marines to counter the lack of armour, but are you going to be dropping meds for 5+ marines at the same time?
W1 makes skulks die from 1 bullet/pellet less, A1 gives marines 10+ bullets/pellets extra before they die. Do the maths.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to OP and +1 to this.
It pains me when people get W1 before A1 and it makes me sad when commanders recycle RTs.
Didn't realise about recycling RTs (its been changed so many times how it works)
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another thing I do (PUB) in early/ mid game is Scan advanced marine pushing areas, this shocks the skulk and gives marines confidence to go into areas (Manual motion hacking)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love how I can empty out an ambush point just by casting a scan, suddenly the marines have pushed into a room without firing a single shot :p
Not SureJoin Date: 2013-01-06Member: 177758Members
<!--quoteo(post=2056125:date=Jan 4 2013, 03:00 PM:name=PsympleJester)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PsympleJester @ Jan 4 2013, 03:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Here have a competant argument. Early ALab: You write this point asthough it is a bad idea to drop an Arms Lab in the first 15 seconds of the game, what idiot on this earth would ever do this? However as most will mistread early as "Dont drop Arms Labs before phase-gates" your argument is actually conterary to what should be done in most situations. Weapons 1 should in most circumstances always come before Phase Tech.
Also, I never insulted you, I merely paraphrased your thread. However, since I am already accused, your a stupid boo boo head and I think you smell of poo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose you also advocate going camo first as alien?
Mobility is the key to almost any RTS, and that definitely applies to this game. The only things you should build before getting phase tech are extractors and forward armories.
I would preface that with "in my opinion," but every competent commander I've talked to agrees with that assessment.
Not SureJoin Date: 2013-01-06Member: 177758Members
<!--quoteo(post=2056114:date=Jan 4 2013, 02:20 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Jan 4 2013, 02:20 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056114"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->so u think i dunno that you mentioned mistakes, thats a mistake. while it <u>seems</u> generally true, it is not necessarily true. let me give u a few simple example.
1. when it happens that your team is, having a clue or by accident, playing a early containment strategy and winning, early sentries and MACs will be useful. with close spawns where the situation is your team flooded the hive and starting to have success, a. drop an armory for resupplies b. tell your team that you could actually hold SHIFT to rush to their hive after respawning c. dropping a 2nd ip early becomes an option in case the flood is slightly sub-par while it is still working. d. making MACs becomes an option because you will have more manpower and if you manage to make a full containment. e. drop sentries at the unpopular, probably the further, side to strengthen the containment.
then hold up, play co and simcity.
2. no phase tech is definitely doable when your, significant or even better majority, team have an idea of defending where it needs to be defended, particularly holding down SHIFT and aiming. after all, if all your rts are 20 seconds away from spawn and marines are not dying often, why bother getting pgs so fast anyway. using a sunken cost logic, a pair of phase gates actually requires more than 40 res to be functional. while a1 is 35. the flaw of having early arms lab rests with the same reason. if you are not going early weapons or pg, then it is only left to go arms lab unless you are containing aliens. getting early arms lab also open the opportunity to get above average damage or armour advantage. while early a1 still requires 3 perfect hit to kill a marine, early a3 with a outpost armory is definitely a pain in the ass.
3. a forward tech point does not requires a obs asap. using your same sunken cost logic, DURING ALL TIME OF THE GAME UNTIL YOU REACH W3A3 AND AT LEAST JP OR EXO,
completely the same for obs. in case of instant need for marines, distress in base, make them phase in. phase gate down? rush aliens's hive.
4. expanding too far regarding as a mistake is yet another not-necessarily-mistake. a common early optimal situation is that in a 8vs8 game, 5 marines manage to start the egg lock while the aliens are not completely dying. 2 marines are in the outskirts. time for overexpanding. it does not just take time for aliens to kill your rt, you can still recycle if they attack it. and it stops khamm dropping on free rt spots. there are always those comm who throws games with a good, or even you call it lucky, start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but the OP is still correct considering this is a guide for new commanders. If you're in a position to effectively execute the strategies you described, you are not a new commander.
<!--quoteo(post=2056840:date=Jan 6 2013, 10:46 AM:name=Not Sure)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Not Sure @ Jan 6 2013, 10:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056840"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sorry, but the OP is still correct considering this is a guide for new commanders. If you're in a position to effectively execute the strategies you described, <b>your team is stacked and aliens have 8 rookies</b>.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Fixed.
<!--quoteo(post=2056077:date=Jan 4 2013, 07:24 PM:name=Lofung)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lofung @ Jan 4 2013, 07:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056077"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->reading the first two points already gave me the idea that this guy has limited experience. the no phase tech no early arms lab thing consolidates it. complete lack of situational awareness.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
800+ posts and you dare to make a ###### comment like this..?!
Situational awereness as you said also contains some reasoning and argumentation, and the guy explained quite clearly why W1/ A1 at the start of the game are completely useless, as well as the 2nd IP, etc, etc. Next to that, it is assumed that the NS2 player has a bit of intelligence, as the game has a relatively steep learning curve (not nearly as much as Eve Online, but much more than Farmville). So please define your weird interpretation of an "early" Arms Lab... I have a feeling that you believe "early" to be at 3/ 4/ 5 minutes, while that is already mid to endgame in my book. (Unless the pub server is crowded with complete noobs and even then the outcome has already been decided in 90% of the cases).
And yes, for every rule there is always some teeny tiny exception, but we're not talking to retards are we? If you're smart enough to play NS2, you're smart enough to know that the exception should be treated as such and not change the general rule all together! That doesn't only count for this person, but also all others ######ing about one little scenario in which the general rule is turned upside down... And even in those unlikely scenarios; following the general rule still isn't going to result in failure anyway! ;)
You could research shotguns at the very start of the match and if the shotgun rush is succesful, you could drop an armory, phase gate, observatory and sentries in enemy base... OR; you could save time and stop f-ing around and just kill the Hyve, thus ending the darn match already! *sigh* :D
<!--quoteo(post=2056911:date=Jan 6 2013, 08:44 AM:name=appLEjuice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (appLEjuice @ Jan 6 2013, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056911"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->800+ posts and you dare to make a ###### comment like this..?!
Situational awereness as you said also contains some reasoning and argumentation, and the guy explained quite clearly why W1/ A1 at the start of the game are completely useless, as well as the 2nd IP, etc, etc. Next to that, it is assumed that the NS2 player has a bit of intelligence, as the game has a relatively steep learning curve (not nearly as much as Eve Online, but much more than Farmville). So please define your weird interpretation of an "early" Arms Lab... I have a feeling that you believe "early" to be at 3/ 4/ 5 minutes, while that is already mid to endgame in my book. (Unless the pub server is crowded with complete noobs and even then the outcome has already been decided in 90% of the cases).
And yes, for every rule there is always some teeny tiny exception, but we're not talking to retards are we? If you're smart enough to play NS2, you're smart enough to know that the exception should be treated as such and not change the general rule all together! That doesn't only count for this person, but also all others ######ing about one little scenario in which the general rule is turned upside down... And even in those unlikely scenarios; following the general rule still isn't going to result in failure anyway! ;)
You could research shotguns at the very start of the match and if the shotgun rush is succesful, you could drop an armory, phase gate, observatory and sentries in enemy base... OR; you could save time and stop f-ing around and just kill the Hyve, thus ending the darn match already! *sigh* :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2056058:date=Jan 5 2013, 04:58 AM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Jan 5 2013, 04:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3) Make a push from a location where there's a forward phase gate and threaten their hive(s). This game is not about lone marines dueling skulks in a forgotten corridor on a large map, or marines in base crouching by the doorway Call of Duty style (as if crouching makes bite do less damage). It is about taking territory from the enemy and not milling around a base <b>waiting</b> for aliens to come knocking.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
THIS, I cannot stress this point enough, marines you need to stop playing passive and get the ###### out there.
EDIT: <!--quoteo(post=2057403:date=Jan 8 2013, 02:01 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jan 8 2013, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is the EXO before JP thread<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2056058:date=Jan 4 2013, 09:58 AM:name=Gorgenapper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gorgenapper @ Jan 4 2013, 09:58 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056058"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><u>MISTAKE: Expanding too far before phase tech</u>
This is the second biggest mistake that I see on marines, not knowing when to stop expanding and when to hold a base until phase gates are available. Too often marines push further than the secondary or tertiary base and get slaughtered, with nobody to build a PG in those bases so that reinforcements can continue to pour in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the only one worth listening to and it's still subjective.
The rest depend on the players and comm strategy. I've seen many pub comms follow the advice you give and fail. I've watched (via stream) a fairly experienced, calm, smart comm follow your 'No early second IP' and fail in two games consecutively, due to a slowed re-spawn rate. If an experienced comm wants to drop two IP's and a Robotics factory, they should not be chastise for it as some "mistake". Different comms with different ideas and strategies make the game more interesting and fun. Most pub games depend on grunt marines. If they can kill/hold/etc, the games already over, early phase or not.
The biggest common mistake is being completely unprepared; not learning build order, expansion requirements, and how to use the interface.
140+ hours in-game here. Primarily play as a Commander if I can help it, as my aim is terribly shockingly unbelievably bad most of the time.
Never even occurred to me to think about the OP's point of A1 and W1 being pointless against non-Carapace skulks. I've always been torn between going for AL upgrades or weapon researches. Now they've pointed out it still takes the same amount of bites to kill an A0/A1 marine, and still the same amount of W0/W1 bullets to kill a skulk - I know exactly what to do (almost) every time: leave the AL until later game, when Carapace or Fades are out.
I do not agree with the armor 1 point. It is beneficial vs good skulks and bad skulks alike.
With armor 0, good skulks will 2 bite + parasite every marine. Bad skulks do a lot of glancing hits and armor 1 can tank 2 glancing hits at best, so you can go from 3 hits at armor 0 to a mean value of 5 hits at armor 1 to kill one marine.
I agree on most points with OP, even considering that public and competitive play are two completely different entities.
However, I found it astonishing with all the people bashing early upgrades for being too expensive, and no one pointing out the fact that the moment phase gates become of any use is the point where you have spent _60_ resources on them (15 for obs + 15 for phase tech + 30 for two phase gates), and getting W1A1 only costs 50 (20 for arms lab + 15 per upgrade). Add this to the fact that it's by no means a given that your marines will be able to establish a phase gate outside your base without dying, and W1A1 becomes not only cheaper, but faster too.
This is all about the strategy the commander wants to follow, I'm not going to say either of these routes first is the right answer, but I, for one, tend to always go with upgrades first. Trying to get a phase gate somewhere might fail horribly if your marines die to skulks too easily, and every phase gate lost before it was fully built is another 15 res to their cost, while upgrades will ALWAYS stay with you, you never have to re-research them, and the aliens never go for the arms lab early game, whereas killing phase gates are their main goal.
While phase gates do offer marines a huge advantage in the way of map control, they're just (in my opinion and in my strategies) way too expensive to be used early on, because your W0A0 marines will most likely fail to protect them anyway if the aliens manage to make a coordinated attack on the phase gate.
What comes to the uselessness of W1 and A1 when talking about numbers, there everyone in this thread is just plain wrong. First of all, A1 is the single most important upgrade in the game. If the alien team knows even the slightest basics, they will always parasite marines somewhere near their base, or just before they attack them. This 10 damage from the parasite will turn the 3 bites till death to a 2 bites till death for a A0 marine, but A1 negates this. Also, with glancing bites, a 3-bite-kill will easily turn to a 4-bite-kill with A1, but not so likely with A0.
For W1 I agree that it's not much use against early skulks, although there is one little point where you will be able to kill a skulk with one bullet less with W1 compared to W0. If you take more than a few seconds to kill a full-health skulk, it will have time to regenerate 1-2hp in the midst of the battle, which means that a W0 marine will have to spend 10 hits to kill it, whereas a W1 marine only needs 9. A small difference, I know, but a difference still. And pretty often I manage to deal 90 damage to a skulk, which then manages to kill me with 1hp left. And when it comes to fades and oni, the single most important thing to face them are weapons upgrades. More often than not an onos or a fade will escape a firefight with less than 30% health left - health that would have been gone if the marines had W3 instead of W0. And also, you're not only here to kill aliens, you're also killing buildings. A 10% damage output increase will most likely yield the marines more than one killed harvester per game, and it's not rare to see an alien hive go down to 10-20% before being saved, meaning that weapons one or two level higher would have finished the job.
Another point against phase gates is that none of the maps are really that very big (and I'm mostly talking about summit, veil and tram here). Of course, a phase gate on the other side of the map or near the alien hive for pushing is an awesome thing, but it's not like you're completely unable to get anywhere without phase gates, especially on tram and summit, where the central hub-like area makes it easy for marines to get almost anywhere in about 20 seconds after spawning.
My main point is that both phase gates first and upgrades first are viable strategies depending how good the marines are at aiming and what kind of strategy the commander is following. However, disregarding upgrades in favor of phase gates because "upgrades won't get you map control, phase gates will" is nothing but a beautiful lie which you will realise after you keep losing your marines on the field and your phase gates constantly die. And even if going with phase gates first, after your first phase gate goes up, your top priority is to start pumping out upgrades as fast as possible with those RTs your supposed map control should have given you. There is absolutely no reason to postpone upgrades any further past this point.
@therius : PG's cut response times. They don't make your marines shoot any better or tank any harder... they cut response times. Pressure can not be sustained by marines that can't get where the fight is, so upgrades are pointless before mobility. This is always true, not sometimes true... always. The response time of a marine to a PG from spawn is a second or two at most... the nearest tech point on any map from a marine spawn point will significantly longer... I'd rather have 1 marine empty his ammo and die/respawn/phase back to the fight than one marine have a 10% buff do the same but have to run all the way back and miss the chance to rejoin the fight entirely.
Now, in your mind you're probably imagining a close-spawn scenario where PG tech is wasted because the combat is thick and constant near the marine/alien starting base... but this doesn't invalidate the general advice that going obs first with the intent of getting PG's is more valuable than going early arms lab and any kind of upgrade. Close spawns make mobility a secondary concern, but there is still the need to expand while applying constant pressure on the alien hive, and PG's allow this to happen.
If you marines are losing badly to skulks, they are not going to perform measurably better with any level 1 upgrade and you'd be better off getting some sentry guns early (which is also a violation of the advice in the OP) but this is also a very specific close-spawn tactic that acts as a force multiplier in a targeted area and not the sort of general advice you can pass along to a new commander.
TL:DR : The OP is advice for new(ish) commanders and it's good solid advice around which you can grow more advanced tactics (I don't always follow the OP advice for example, but I'd never feel uncomfortable with a marine com sticking to it under any circumstance)... you're caveats are not geared to newer commanders and only serve as a distraction. Feel free to start your own thread on the merits of early upgrades or on delayed PG's if you wish.
Troubleshooter: This whole thread has been a conversation on whether or not OP's hints are good or not, how exactly are my opinions any worse for new players and how do they distract them? Maybe because you disagree with them? That certainly seems to be the spirit of your post and hostility.
And no, I didn't have a close-spawn scenario in mind, from pure experience I just know that upgrades are the difference between life and death for marines, and it doesn't really matter if your marine gets to the battleground fast, if he's just going to die there. It's easy to undermine the importance of, for example, a damage upgrade with saying "it's only 10%", but that 10% is amazingly important. As is getting to the spot via phase gates. I AT NO POINT said that phase gates are useless nor did I say that you should always go for upgrades first, I merely pointed out a fact that upgrades are very important, something that most people on this thread don't seem to realise. Marine tech is usually measured with what level of weapons upgrade they have, since that has such a drastic effect on the survivability of any alien lifeform.
I'm not saying you're wrong (though your comment about sentry turrets almost made me disregard your entire post), I'm just saying that you, along with many other posters, seem to underrate upgrades even though they are crucial for the survival of the marines. Talking about something like this in the forums with nothing but abstract ideas in mind is mainly pointless, thugh, since there are so many factors at stake, but I speak from pure experience in NS2 as well as NS1, where the relationship between phase gates and upgrades was very similar. I've seen so many games, both public and competitive, where the marines are desperately trying to establish a foothold with a researched phase gate, with no upgrades, and failing miserably against mere skulks or a solitary lerk. And then again I've seen games where phase tech has kicked in at 10:00 or even 15:00 with the marine team being able to push EVERYWHERE on the map because of high-level upgrades that have kept them alive and the aliens dead.
Once again let me emphasise that I'm not disregarding your opinion, you're entirely right about the importance of phase gates, I'm just trying to open your eyes so you can see the other side of the coin. I do, however, resent your hostility and your claim that my contribution is not relevant to this thread.
@Therius : Oh, I may be in a sour mood tonight, and my hostility is shining through in some posts in other threads, but my reply to you was absolutely in the spirit of refocusing the thread where it's intent lies... which is on training up commanders that make common (noob) mistakes.
Neither I or the OP every suggested that the importance of upgrades was diminished... the OP clearly states that they should come later that at the early stage of the game (or to be specific, before phase gates). The reason is plainly stated and justified, and I support the OP's reasoning 100%. No where is it suggested that upgrades be put off until the late game, but that early game timing is crucial and the benefits of upgrades over mobility at a point when mobility is at its absolute low tide means you're giving up any expansion beyond marine sprint-range unless they can already win fights with skulks on the field.
Here is the logic in play.
Given even teams and reasonable skill levels, Marines will kill skulks more frequently. If this is true, then W1 will only speed up the natural outcome of early fights. A1 will not extend marines field life by much at all however.
If this is true, skulks know this and will choose uneven fights to overcome marines in the early game or opt for harassment when possible. In an uneven fight, neither W1 or A1 will save the marines leaving surviving skulks to begin tearing down marine infrastructure.
One thing is true... Marines should not be engaging aliens on even terms except when the location of the fight is known. The only time it's known is when the aliens are left with no viable targets except RT's and tech points. As a result, PG's are best for early game combat effects because they can rapidly alter the math of an engagement in a way that aliens can not control in the same way that an ambushing skulk can.
This is why the only time that early upgrades make sense is when there's a close spawn situation, and even there its a toss up whether or not sentries would be a better investment because with the robo comes macs which can free up precious marines for combat duty.
So, don't be so sensitive. Also, if you are going to discount sentries because everyone says they are crap (and they are for the most part) then you're not playing it right. Sentries can be excellent support for advancing marines or effective buffers to allow marines time to respond to shifting situations. Rejecting them out of hand only undermines your own credibility IMHO.
Common mistake #1: Taking an authoritative stance when refuting other people's opinions. This is exacerbated when you do it with only maybe a hundred hours game time.
There are lots of people with much more game time out there.
Troubleshooter: Now you're just bashing my opinion on grounds of me supposedly disregarding things out of hand or because everyone says so, and claiming that this undermines my credibility, when the actual case is that every single argument I have stated stems from experience and first-hand information ONLY, and nothing else. Don't be so quick to assume, mate.
I am also not going to get involved in an argument about apples and oranges, especially when not a single apple or orange is present during the argument, and the only base for claims are dubious mind-games and arbitrarily conjured scenarios instead of actual gameplay situations, statistics and experience.
<!--quoteo(post=2059365:date=Jan 11 2013, 08:55 PM:name=Therius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Therius @ Jan 11 2013, 08:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059365"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->(though your comment about sentry turrets almost made me disregard your entire post) ... Now you're just bashing my opinion on grounds of me supposedly disregarding things out of hand<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just took what you said at face value. I could presume more nuance as the rest of your post had a bit of swerve to it, but that you also took my first response to you as hostile left me with the impression you were being a bit touchy. Either way, no hard feelings. I'm still right though ;)
I would say i've seen more games lost due to slow uprgades than slow phase tech. This coming from a player with thousands of hours of playtime in NS1. I'm not going to go into details tho because i don't comm very often. One of the best commanders i have seen actually had a strategy that he would research w3 a3 before anything else in NS1. uprgades were going 24/7 in 2 arms labs, and it actually worked pretty often. Not saying u should try that at home tho^^
And btw always research uprgades rather a weapon a marine can buy just because uprgades are free for marine everytime he dies and respawns, but with bought shotgun u lose 20res. Only time shotgun goes over uprgades is when u see multiple fades/lerks on the field.
"800+ posts and you dare to make a ###### comment like this..?!"
Lol, hers are *all* like that, just another name for the idiots-on-the-UWE-forums box.
"140+ hours in-game here"
Try a2 then w1, or w1 if shotguns then a2. Essentially the less time you spend in a1 the less time you spend *not using* (often, okay so you are always happy for a1 as a soldier coz you can survive more gas, spit etc, but this is a com thread yeas?) the 20 res you put into a1 - a1 is best for: unlocking a2, kinda redundant but I've seen worse tech trees.
Second IP at start is an absolute must on larger servers (20+, maybe as small as 18 with no AFKs). Without it, you are incredibly vulnerable to a skulk rush, plus marines tend to die in groups because they live in groups, which means that your one spawn is going to have a backlog of 3 marines waiting on it whenever something happens even if the majority of the game it's sitting entirely unused. If you don't have a second IP down before you're second RT on a pub server (especially a large pub server), you may as well just recycle your first one becuase you've already lost.
<!--quoteo(post=2059944:date=Jan 13 2013, 04:19 AM:name=sotanaht)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sotanaht @ Jan 13 2013, 04:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2059944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Second IP at start is an absolute must on larger servers (20+, maybe as small as 18 with no AFKs). Without it, you are incredibly vulnerable to a skulk rush, plus marines tend to die in groups because they live in groups, which means that your one spawn is going to have a backlog of 3 marines waiting on it whenever something happens even if the majority of the game it's sitting entirely unused. If you don't have a second IP down before you're second RT on a pub server (especially a large pub server), you may as well just recycle your first one becuase you've already lost.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A second IP at the start is an absolute NO on smaller servers.
There will be exceptions to every rule. The game is balanced around 6v6 and 8v8. The advice given is targeted at those games. I'm sure larger (or smaller) server populations require more specialized advice.
Comments
<u><b>Don't recycle RTs</b></u>
They stop giving res once you hit recycle and only give back 75% relative to their health. One skulk chewing an RT will give you a maximum of 6 res when recycling it (if you react <i>instantly</i>), and also 6 res when not recycling it. Except if you don't recycle it, there's still a chance a marine might save it. If two skulks are chewing it, you get a maximum of 3 res when recycling (again, only if reacting <i>instantly</i>), and 3 res when not recycling.
Ideally, your map layout should always have every RT in "savable" walking distance anyway, but even if they're not, there's no reason or point to recycle RTs. Ever. About 90% of the time you'll get more res from not recycling. Unless you're hoping the skulk(s) will leave it once you hit recycle, which no intelligent skulk will ever do.
<u><b>Don't upgrade Weapons 1 first</b></u>
There was barely any argument to justify this in NS1, and with the introduction of glancing bites in NS2, there's absolutely no plausible reason left to get W1 first. Yes, you can medspam your marines to counter the lack of armour, but are you going to be dropping meds for 5+ marines at the same time?
W1 makes skulks die from 1 bullet/pellet less, A1 gives marines 10+ bullets/pellets extra before they die. Do the maths.
Also don't agree with early second IP. Especially early skulk rush.
<u><b>Don't recycle RTs</b></u>
They stop giving res once you hit recycle and only give back 75% relative to their health. One skulk chewing an RT will give you a maximum of 6 res when recycling it (if you react <i>instantly</i>), and also 6 res when not recycling it. Except if you don't recycle it, there's still a chance a marine might save it. If two skulks are chewing it, you get a maximum of 3 res when recycling (again, only if reacting <i>instantly</i>), and 3 res when not recycling.
Ideally, your map layout should always have every RT in "savable" walking distance anyway, but even if they're not, there's no reason or point to recycle RTs. Ever. About 90% of the time you'll get more res from not recycling. Unless you're hoping the skulk(s) will leave it once you hit recycle, which no intelligent skulk will ever do.
<u><b>Don't upgrade Weapons 1 first</b></u>
There was barely any argument to justify this in NS1, and with the introduction of glancing bites in NS2, there's absolutely no plausible reason left to get W1 first. Yes, you can medspam your marines to counter the lack of armour, but are you going to be dropping meds for 5+ marines at the same time?
W1 makes skulks die from 1 bullet/pellet less, A1 gives marines 10+ bullets/pellets extra before they die. Do the maths.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Completely agree with recycling RT's I will have to punch someone in the face next time someone does that! :p
A second point with that, if you recycle the Rt the skulk will go and do something else, its a time waster as well.
Another thing I do (PUB) in early/ mid game is Scan advanced marine pushing areas, this shocks the skulk and gives marines confidence to go into areas (Manual motion hacking)
I also don't drop an early second IP that often. It depends on the situation, like when it's a 10vs10 server and you see your marines getting slaughtered in the early engagements, that would be a good time to drop a second IP.
If you are aiming your guide at retards it serves no purpose, anyone without a major head injury could work out your list as a start point.
Secondly people whom might need this list wont be on the forums, only people who have taken the first steps on the ladder at commanding will have taken the time to search the forums for advice on commanding, these people probably already outstreched anti-retard guidelines you have written and thus them following this guide will probably cause them to be worse commanders.
Here have a competant argument.
Early ALab: You write this point asthough it is a bad idea to drop an Arms Lab in the first 15 seconds of the game, what idiot on this earth would ever do this?
However as most will mistread early as "Dont drop Arms Labs before phase-gates" your argument is actually conterary to what should be done in most situations.
Weapons 1 should in most circumstances always come before Phase Tech.
Also, I never insulted you, I merely paraphrased your thread.
However, since I am already accused, your a stupid boo boo head and I think you smell of poo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's already been a few people who've posted that it was a good informative read for them. You have no idea who all reads these forums so you shouldn't pretend to know, nor if they're "retards" or not. I can't count the number of times during my gaming experiences I read guides just as these that helped me out tremendously. And as to the quality of the guide itself, it's almost exactly the philosophy I follow and I generally have great success at commanding. Your attitude is pretty god-awful and you should just stop posting on the thread as you've said not one meaningful thing on it.
<u><b>Don't recycle RTs</b></u>
They stop giving res once you hit recycle and only give back 75% relative to their health. One skulk chewing an RT will give you a maximum of 6 res when recycling it (if you react <i>instantly</i>), and also 6 res when not recycling it. Except if you don't recycle it, there's still a chance a marine might save it. If two skulks are chewing it, you get a maximum of 3 res when recycling (again, only if reacting <i>instantly</i>), and 3 res when not recycling.
Ideally, your map layout should always have every RT in "savable" walking distance anyway, but even if they're not, there's no reason or point to recycle RTs. Ever. About 90% of the time you'll get more res from not recycling. Unless you're hoping the skulk(s) will leave it once you hit recycle, which no intelligent skulk will ever do.
<u><b>Don't upgrade Weapons 1 first</b></u>
There was barely any argument to justify this in NS1, and with the introduction of glancing bites in NS2, there's absolutely no plausible reason left to get W1 first. Yes, you can medspam your marines to counter the lack of armour, but are you going to be dropping meds for 5+ marines at the same time?
W1 makes skulks die from 1 bullet/pellet less, A1 gives marines 10+ bullets/pellets extra before they die. Do the maths.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 to OP and +1 to this.
It pains me when people get W1 before A1 and it makes me sad when commanders recycle RTs.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Another thing I do (PUB) in early/ mid game is Scan advanced marine pushing areas, this shocks the skulk and gives marines confidence to go into areas (Manual motion hacking)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love how I can empty out an ambush point just by casting a scan, suddenly the marines have pushed into a room without firing a single shot :p
And yes, Docking is all about Courtyard.
Fixed
Early ALab: You write this point asthough it is a bad idea to drop an Arms Lab in the first 15 seconds of the game, what idiot on this earth would ever do this?
However as most will mistread early as "Dont drop Arms Labs before phase-gates" your argument is actually conterary to what should be done in most situations.
Weapons 1 should in most circumstances always come before Phase Tech.
Also, I never insulted you, I merely paraphrased your thread.
However, since I am already accused, your a stupid boo boo head and I think you smell of poo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suppose you also advocate going camo first as alien?
Mobility is the key to almost any RTS, and that definitely applies to this game. The only things you should build before getting phase tech are extractors and forward armories.
I would preface that with "in my opinion," but every competent commander I've talked to agrees with that assessment.
1. when it happens that your team is, having a clue or by accident, playing a early containment strategy and winning, early sentries and MACs will be useful. with close spawns where the situation is your team flooded the hive and starting to have success,
a. drop an armory for resupplies
b. tell your team that you could actually hold SHIFT to rush to their hive after respawning
c. dropping a 2nd ip early becomes an option in case the flood is slightly sub-par while it is still working.
d. making MACs becomes an option because you will have more manpower and if you manage to make a full containment.
e. drop sentries at the unpopular, probably the further, side to strengthen the containment.
then hold up, play co and simcity.
2. no phase tech is definitely doable when your, significant or even better majority, team have an idea of defending where it needs to be defended, particularly holding down SHIFT and aiming. after all, if all your rts are 20 seconds away from spawn and marines are not dying often, why bother getting pgs so fast anyway. using a sunken cost logic, a pair of phase gates actually requires more than 40 res to be functional. while a1 is 35. the flaw of having early arms lab rests with the same reason. if you are not going early weapons or pg, then it is only left to go arms lab unless you are containing aliens. getting early arms lab also open the opportunity to get above average damage or armour advantage. while early a1 still requires 3 perfect hit to kill a marine, early a3 with a outpost armory is definitely a pain in the ass.
3. a forward tech point does not requires a obs asap. using your same sunken cost logic, DURING ALL TIME OF THE GAME UNTIL YOU REACH W3A3 AND AT LEAST JP OR EXO,
completely the same for obs. in case of instant need for marines, distress in base, make them phase in. phase gate down? rush aliens's hive.
4. expanding too far regarding as a mistake is yet another not-necessarily-mistake. a common early optimal situation is that in a 8vs8 game, 5 marines manage to start the egg lock while the aliens are not completely dying. 2 marines are in the outskirts. time for overexpanding. it does not just take time for aliens to kill your rt, you can still recycle if they attack it. and it stops khamm dropping on free rt spots. there are always those comm who throws games with a good, or even you call it lucky, start.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, but the OP is still correct considering this is a guide for new commanders. If you're in a position to effectively execute the strategies you described, you are not a new commander.
Fixed.
800+ posts and you dare to make a ###### comment like this..?!
Situational awereness as you said also contains some reasoning and argumentation, and the guy explained quite clearly why W1/ A1 at the start of the game are completely useless, as well as the 2nd IP, etc, etc.
Next to that, it is assumed that the NS2 player has a bit of intelligence, as the game has a relatively steep learning curve (not nearly as much as Eve Online, but much more than Farmville). So please define your weird interpretation of an "early" Arms Lab... I have a feeling that you believe "early" to be at 3/ 4/ 5 minutes, while that is already mid to endgame in my book. (Unless the pub server is crowded with complete noobs and even then the outcome has already been decided in 90% of the cases).
And yes, for every rule there is always some teeny tiny exception, but we're not talking to retards are we? If you're smart enough to play NS2, you're smart enough to know that the exception should be treated as such and not change the general rule all together!
That doesn't only count for this person, but also all others ######ing about one little scenario in which the general rule is turned upside down... And even in those unlikely scenarios; following the general rule still isn't going to result in failure anyway! ;)
You could research shotguns at the very start of the match and if the shotgun rush is succesful, you could drop an armory, phase gate, observatory and sentries in enemy base... OR; you could save time and stop f-ing around and just kill the Hyve, thus ending the darn match already! *sigh* :D
Situational awereness as you said also contains some reasoning and argumentation, and the guy explained quite clearly why W1/ A1 at the start of the game are completely useless, as well as the 2nd IP, etc, etc.
Next to that, it is assumed that the NS2 player has a bit of intelligence, as the game has a relatively steep learning curve (not nearly as much as Eve Online, but much more than Farmville). So please define your weird interpretation of an "early" Arms Lab... I have a feeling that you believe "early" to be at 3/ 4/ 5 minutes, while that is already mid to endgame in my book. (Unless the pub server is crowded with complete noobs and even then the outcome has already been decided in 90% of the cases).
And yes, for every rule there is always some teeny tiny exception, but we're not talking to retards are we? If you're smart enough to play NS2, you're smart enough to know that the exception should be treated as such and not change the general rule all together!
That doesn't only count for this person, but also all others ######ing about one little scenario in which the general rule is turned upside down... And even in those unlikely scenarios; following the general rule still isn't going to result in failure anyway! ;)
You could research shotguns at the very start of the match and if the shotgun rush is succesful, you could drop an armory, phase gate, observatory and sentries in enemy base... OR; you could save time and stop f-ing around and just kill the Hyve, thus ending the darn match already! *sigh* :D<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for juice... err... truth! ;)
THIS, I cannot stress this point enough, marines you need to stop playing passive and get the ###### out there.
EDIT: <!--quoteo(post=2057403:date=Jan 8 2013, 02:01 AM:name=VeNeM)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (VeNeM @ Jan 8 2013, 02:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->this is the EXO before JP thread<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please no..
This is the second biggest mistake that I see on marines, not knowing when to stop expanding and when to hold a base until phase gates are available. Too often marines push further than the secondary or tertiary base and get slaughtered, with nobody to build a PG in those bases so that reinforcements can continue to pour in.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the only one worth listening to and it's still subjective.
The rest depend on the players and comm strategy. I've seen many pub comms follow the advice you give and fail. I've watched (via stream) a fairly experienced, calm, smart comm follow your 'No early second IP' and fail in two games consecutively, due to a slowed re-spawn rate. If an experienced comm wants to drop two IP's and a Robotics factory, they should not be chastise for it as some "mistake". Different comms with different ideas and strategies make the game more interesting and fun. Most pub games depend on grunt marines. If they can kill/hold/etc, the games already over, early phase or not.
The biggest common mistake is being completely unprepared; not learning build order, expansion requirements, and how to use the interface.
Never even occurred to me to think about the OP's point of A1 and W1 being pointless against non-Carapace skulks. I've always been torn between going for AL upgrades or weapon researches. Now they've pointed out it still takes the same amount of bites to kill an A0/A1 marine, and still the same amount of W0/W1 bullets to kill a skulk - I know exactly what to do (almost) every time: leave the AL until later game, when Carapace or Fades are out.
Thank you, OP.
With armor 0, good skulks will 2 bite + parasite every marine. Bad skulks do a lot of glancing hits and armor 1 can tank 2 glancing hits at best, so you can go from 3 hits at armor 0 to a mean value of 5 hits at armor 1 to kill one marine.
However, I found it astonishing with all the people bashing early upgrades for being too expensive, and no one pointing out the fact that the moment phase gates become of any use is the point where you have spent _60_ resources on them (15 for obs + 15 for phase tech + 30 for two phase gates), and getting W1A1 only costs 50 (20 for arms lab + 15 per upgrade). Add this to the fact that it's by no means a given that your marines will be able to establish a phase gate outside your base without dying, and W1A1 becomes not only cheaper, but faster too.
This is all about the strategy the commander wants to follow, I'm not going to say either of these routes first is the right answer, but I, for one, tend to always go with upgrades first. Trying to get a phase gate somewhere might fail horribly if your marines die to skulks too easily, and every phase gate lost before it was fully built is another 15 res to their cost, while upgrades will ALWAYS stay with you, you never have to re-research them, and the aliens never go for the arms lab early game, whereas killing phase gates are their main goal.
While phase gates do offer marines a huge advantage in the way of map control, they're just (in my opinion and in my strategies) way too expensive to be used early on, because your W0A0 marines will most likely fail to protect them anyway if the aliens manage to make a coordinated attack on the phase gate.
What comes to the uselessness of W1 and A1 when talking about numbers, there everyone in this thread is just plain wrong. First of all, A1 is the single most important upgrade in the game. If the alien team knows even the slightest basics, they will always parasite marines somewhere near their base, or just before they attack them. This 10 damage from the parasite will turn the 3 bites till death to a 2 bites till death for a A0 marine, but A1 negates this. Also, with glancing bites, a 3-bite-kill will easily turn to a 4-bite-kill with A1, but not so likely with A0.
For W1 I agree that it's not much use against early skulks, although there is one little point where you will be able to kill a skulk with one bullet less with W1 compared to W0. If you take more than a few seconds to kill a full-health skulk, it will have time to regenerate 1-2hp in the midst of the battle, which means that a W0 marine will have to spend 10 hits to kill it, whereas a W1 marine only needs 9. A small difference, I know, but a difference still. And pretty often I manage to deal 90 damage to a skulk, which then manages to kill me with 1hp left. And when it comes to fades and oni, the single most important thing to face them are weapons upgrades. More often than not an onos or a fade will escape a firefight with less than 30% health left - health that would have been gone if the marines had W3 instead of W0. And also, you're not only here to kill aliens, you're also killing buildings. A 10% damage output increase will most likely yield the marines more than one killed harvester per game, and it's not rare to see an alien hive go down to 10-20% before being saved, meaning that weapons one or two level higher would have finished the job.
Another point against phase gates is that none of the maps are really that very big (and I'm mostly talking about summit, veil and tram here). Of course, a phase gate on the other side of the map or near the alien hive for pushing is an awesome thing, but it's not like you're completely unable to get anywhere without phase gates, especially on tram and summit, where the central hub-like area makes it easy for marines to get almost anywhere in about 20 seconds after spawning.
My main point is that both phase gates first and upgrades first are viable strategies depending how good the marines are at aiming and what kind of strategy the commander is following. However, disregarding upgrades in favor of phase gates because "upgrades won't get you map control, phase gates will" is nothing but a beautiful lie which you will realise after you keep losing your marines on the field and your phase gates constantly die. And even if going with phase gates first, after your first phase gate goes up, your top priority is to start pumping out upgrades as fast as possible with those RTs your supposed map control should have given you. There is absolutely no reason to postpone upgrades any further past this point.
Now, in your mind you're probably imagining a close-spawn scenario where PG tech is wasted because the combat is thick and constant near the marine/alien starting base... but this doesn't invalidate the general advice that going obs first with the intent of getting PG's is more valuable than going early arms lab and any kind of upgrade. Close spawns make mobility a secondary concern, but there is still the need to expand while applying constant pressure on the alien hive, and PG's allow this to happen.
If you marines are losing badly to skulks, they are not going to perform measurably better with any level 1 upgrade and you'd be better off getting some sentry guns early (which is also a violation of the advice in the OP) but this is also a very specific close-spawn tactic that acts as a force multiplier in a targeted area and not the sort of general advice you can pass along to a new commander.
TL:DR : The OP is advice for new(ish) commanders and it's good solid advice around which you can grow more advanced tactics (I don't always follow the OP advice for example, but I'd never feel uncomfortable with a marine com sticking to it under any circumstance)... you're caveats are not geared to newer commanders and only serve as a distraction. Feel free to start your own thread on the merits of early upgrades or on delayed PG's if you wish.
And no, I didn't have a close-spawn scenario in mind, from pure experience I just know that upgrades are the difference between life and death for marines, and it doesn't really matter if your marine gets to the battleground fast, if he's just going to die there. It's easy to undermine the importance of, for example, a damage upgrade with saying "it's only 10%", but that 10% is amazingly important. As is getting to the spot via phase gates. I AT NO POINT said that phase gates are useless nor did I say that you should always go for upgrades first, I merely pointed out a fact that upgrades are very important, something that most people on this thread don't seem to realise. Marine tech is usually measured with what level of weapons upgrade they have, since that has such a drastic effect on the survivability of any alien lifeform.
I'm not saying you're wrong (though your comment about sentry turrets almost made me disregard your entire post), I'm just saying that you, along with many other posters, seem to underrate upgrades even though they are crucial for the survival of the marines. Talking about something like this in the forums with nothing but abstract ideas in mind is mainly pointless, thugh, since there are so many factors at stake, but I speak from pure experience in NS2 as well as NS1, where the relationship between phase gates and upgrades was very similar. I've seen so many games, both public and competitive, where the marines are desperately trying to establish a foothold with a researched phase gate, with no upgrades, and failing miserably against mere skulks or a solitary lerk. And then again I've seen games where phase tech has kicked in at 10:00 or even 15:00 with the marine team being able to push EVERYWHERE on the map because of high-level upgrades that have kept them alive and the aliens dead.
Once again let me emphasise that I'm not disregarding your opinion, you're entirely right about the importance of phase gates, I'm just trying to open your eyes so you can see the other side of the coin. I do, however, resent your hostility and your claim that my contribution is not relevant to this thread.
Neither I or the OP every suggested that the importance of upgrades was diminished... the OP clearly states that they should come later that at the early stage of the game (or to be specific, before phase gates). The reason is plainly stated and justified, and I support the OP's reasoning 100%. No where is it suggested that upgrades be put off until the late game, but that early game timing is crucial and the benefits of upgrades over mobility at a point when mobility is at its absolute low tide means you're giving up any expansion beyond marine sprint-range unless they can already win fights with skulks on the field.
Here is the logic in play.
Given even teams and reasonable skill levels, Marines will kill skulks more frequently.
If this is true, then W1 will only speed up the natural outcome of early fights. A1 will not extend marines field life by much at all however.
If this is true, skulks know this and will choose uneven fights to overcome marines in the early game or opt for harassment when possible.
In an uneven fight, neither W1 or A1 will save the marines leaving surviving skulks to begin tearing down marine infrastructure.
One thing is true... Marines should not be engaging aliens on even terms except when the location of the fight is known. The only time it's known is when the aliens are left with no viable targets except RT's and tech points. As a result, PG's are best for early game combat effects because they can rapidly alter the math of an engagement in a way that aliens can not control in the same way that an ambushing skulk can.
This is why the only time that early upgrades make sense is when there's a close spawn situation, and even there its a toss up whether or not sentries would be a better investment because with the robo comes macs which can free up precious marines for combat duty.
So, don't be so sensitive. Also, if you are going to discount sentries because everyone says they are crap (and they are for the most part) then you're not playing it right. Sentries can be excellent support for advancing marines or effective buffers to allow marines time to respond to shifting situations. Rejecting them out of hand only undermines your own credibility IMHO.
There are lots of people with much more game time out there.
(Lots of hot air in this thread)
to many marines goinmg exo mid to late game resulting in loosing base.
researching GL over flamers
I am also not going to get involved in an argument about apples and oranges, especially when not a single apple or orange is present during the argument, and the only base for claims are dubious mind-games and arbitrarily conjured scenarios instead of actual gameplay situations, statistics and experience.
...
Now you're just bashing my opinion on grounds of me supposedly disregarding things out of hand<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just took what you said at face value. I could presume more nuance as the rest of your post had a bit of swerve to it, but that you also took my first response to you as hostile left me with the impression you were being a bit touchy. Either way, no hard feelings. I'm still right though ;)
And btw always research uprgades rather a weapon a marine can buy just because uprgades are free for marine everytime he dies and respawns, but with bought shotgun u lose 20res. Only time shotgun goes over uprgades is when u see multiple fades/lerks on the field.
Lol, hers are *all* like that, just another name for the idiots-on-the-UWE-forums box.
"140+ hours in-game here"
Try a2 then w1, or w1 if shotguns then a2. Essentially the less time you spend in a1 the less time you spend *not using* (often, okay so you are always happy for a1 as a soldier coz you can survive more gas, spit etc, but this is a com thread yeas?) the 20 res you put into a1 - a1 is best for: unlocking a2, kinda redundant but I've seen worse tech trees.
A second IP at the start is an absolute NO on smaller servers.
There will be exceptions to every rule. The game is balanced around 6v6 and 8v8. The advice given is targeted at those games. I'm sure larger (or smaller) server populations require more specialized advice.