<!--quoteo(post=2049808:date=Dec 22 2012, 08:26 AM:name=bakkoto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bakkoto @ Dec 22 2012, 08:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Lastly my experience finds that Onos will always join first the battlefield compared to Exo. <b>Why</b>? quite simple. skulks depend of <b>Upgrades (wich cost 0 Pers Res)</b> so he can safe Res to get a (Onos or Fade .etc). Marine need to spent <b>Pers Res</b> to get Weapons , gadgets etc .So it´s really hard to safe <b>pers Res</b> if you are constantly Dying .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Weapons can be recovered, either by yourself or a team-mate. Even the most expensive gun is cheaper than a lerk.
Failure to upgrade to Gorge/Lerks/Fades mid-game leads to a lot of aliens losses, too. An exo covering troops will melt skulks, and even a skulk that's jumping and circle strafing only needs a few bullets from a minigun to turn him into a stain. Three fast moving targets <i>is</i> difficult to track as an Exo, but if you have even one or two guys with a flamethrower covering you it should be ok until they can weld you. I would never really claim that Exo is a counter to Onos. Rather Exo is a counter to Lerks and Fades, and a smart support turret for well-coordinated foot troops in an assault.
Not only that, but a dual exo can put a steady stream of firepower into a hive. That's pretty powerful even without concentrated LMG fire backing it up. (I.E. Troops are anti player, Exo are more anti-structure though they are effective at killing <i>certain</i> life forms while being far less than optimal against others.)
It just seems out of place for a 75 P.Res investment to be backup for free or cheap units, but that's pretty much what it is. Perhaps better UI targeting graphics would benefit the Exo, although the skulk targeting graphic is pretty helpful as is.
<!--quoteo(post=2050005:date=Dec 22 2012, 04:15 PM:name=SpaceJew)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpaceJew @ Dec 22 2012, 04:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Weapons can be recovered, either by yourself or a team-mate.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think Weapons disappear after few seconds or minutes ( like 1 min i think .I´m not sure)
I just wanted to pop in and say I think it's silly to depend on the marine commander to notice what's happening to a power node. There is always an obs, which makes it very easy to spot anything on the power, every marine should be watching for something in their base even without the red dot. Plus you should have multiple eyes on important areas, on aliens the other day I went all the way across a map to check out why hydras were blinking (just attacking a leftover power node in the area). I see it as a bad team if the comm actually has to beacon people back because of a skulk on a powernode.
I was a marine the other day in a game where we were all distracted with some random fight somewhere while an onos was ravaging our power. None of us noticed it until it was too late, guess he had silence or something, I felt like a complete idiot noob not noticing a onos in our base. It shocked me that the whole team was pissed at our commander. It's not like they just sitting there staring at the base, they are throwing down medpacks/ammo and armories for their forces.
I think adding any sort of extra power source would cause even more annoying turtling, if anything I'd say make warnings louder and silence shouldn't count on base power nodes.
<!--quoteo(post=2050225:date=Dec 23 2012, 07:40 AM:name=ItAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ItAx @ Dec 23 2012, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They should just bring the power packs back and limit them to like 1-2 units per room. And each of them should cost ~15 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will also be viewed as a solution for this Problem. +1
<!--quoteo(post=2050288:date=Dec 23 2012, 09:07 AM:name=LilbitHeartless)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LilbitHeartless @ Dec 23 2012, 09:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050288"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think adding any sort of extra power source would cause even more annoying turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don´t think so.It's like an insurance for marines ==> pay Res in case ###### happens you still have a fighting chance.
<!--quoteo(post=2050225:date=Dec 23 2012, 07:40 AM:name=ItAx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ItAx @ Dec 23 2012, 07:40 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050225"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->They should just bring the power packs back and limit them to like 1-2 units per room. And each of them should cost ~15 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think all we need is power packs to power only Infantry Portals / Observatory (for a last Distress Beacon).
And something like <b>Build 205</b> "to power only a single structure nearby" + only <b>Infantry Portals / Observatory</b>.
Other alternative :
An <b>Support Ability</b> "power boost" activated at the Command Station by the <b>Marine Commander</b> at the <b>cost of Res</b>.
==> <b>provides power to the selected structure</b> (Infantry Portals / Observatory) <b>for</b> 20 sec or 10 sec etc ..
It's up to you guys to decide. So what do you think?
I like the idea of a power pack. Maybe limit one per room though. Otherwise it will end up prolonging marine turtle mode too much.
I'd also like to see a better notification system for marine structure damage. Perhaps an audible warning when main base power hits 75% health, 50% etc.
swalkSay hello to my little friend.Join Date: 2011-01-20Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2012
<!--quoteo(post=2049359:date=Dec 21 2012, 07:41 PM:name=Omar - The Wire)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Omar - The Wire @ Dec 21 2012, 07:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049359"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Your counter Onos isn't the "Exo you can't beacon" it's your level 3 weapons, shotgun carrying jet packers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong assumption, rifles are do more DPS than shotguns. <!--quoteo(post=2050003:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:12 AM:name=bakkoto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bakkoto @ Dec 23 2012, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already heard enough of that.Dude you think Marines are the only ones who can get a good commander and a decent set of marines??! how about Alien-team ? are they sleeping?!! For the love of god, i´m talking about late game phase / both Teams are good / Onos everywhere and how it´s bad and frustrated to lose because of operation "<b>destroy the power node for the win</b>".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the marines are down to one base, going for the powernode would be the wrong target for the aliens anyway. Destroying the powernode does not secure the win, the proper target would be the command station. You can rebuild your base powernode, but you lose instantly if you lose your last commandstation. Base powernode a good target if marines have both observatory and a phase gate up, and they are busy assaulting the alien team on another part of the map.
<!--quoteo(post=2051665:date=Dec 26 2012, 09:10 PM:name=Seahunts)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Seahunts @ Dec 26 2012, 09:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of a power pack. Maybe limit one per room though. Otherwise it will end up prolonging marine turtle mode too much.
I'd also like to see a better notification system for marine structure damage. Perhaps an audible warning when main base power hits 75% health, 50% etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2051675:date=Dec 26 2012, 09:56 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 26 2012, 09:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong assumption, rifles are do more DPS than shotguns.
If the marines are down to one base, going for the powernode would be the wrong target for the aliens anyway. Destroying the powernode does not secure the win, the proper target would be the command station. You can rebuild your base powernode, but you lose instantly if you lose your last commandstation. Base powernode a good target if marines have both observatory and a phase gate up, and they are busy assaulting the alien team on another part of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SO YOU'RE TELLING ME that even with the power node down and Onos are like everywhere you still have a chance ? or does not secure the win ??
Well ==> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA</a>
<!--quoteo(post=2049205:date=Dec 21 2012, 06:10 AM:name=bakkoto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bakkoto @ Dec 21 2012, 06:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049205"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->New <b>Support Ability</b> "power boost" activated at the Command Station by the Marine Commander at the<b> cost of Res</b>. ==> provides <b>power</b> to the <b>selected structure</b> (Infantry Portals / Observatory) <b>for</b> 20 sec or 10 sec etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love it. "Unknownworlds" what are you waiting for? This is fu**g Awesome. +1
<!--quoteo(post=2053753:date=Dec 31 2012, 07:24 PM:name=FadeToBlack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FadeToBlack @ Dec 31 2012, 07:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053753"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I love it. "Unknownworlds" what are you waiting for? This is fu**g Awesome. +1<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't like it, because it isn't a choice. No marine commander will ever be sat thinking "well, do I really need power? I mean It does cost 10 res! That is very expensive, maybe I will just leave the base unpowered and lose instead". No, it will be on obvious choice, and will therefore be nothing more than an annoyance that the commander has to activate this ability at all, since it should just go off automatically whenever the power goes down.
Power packs, on the other hand, are entirely a choice, because they are pre-emptive. You decide how many you want, and how likely it is that they will be needed. Once you need them, they better already be built, because by then it is too late. I liked the power pack notion SO much and I really don't understand why UWE removed them. I would really like some feedback from them on this matter so we can instead make a concerted effort to brainstorm around the limiting factors of the power packs.
<!--quoteo(post=2053944:date=Dec 31 2012, 04:57 PM:name=yehawmcgraw)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yehawmcgraw @ Dec 31 2012, 04:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053944"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The discussion on this thread seems bad-mannered and unconstructive. I suggest you state your ideas and move on.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2053842:date=Dec 31 2012, 12:12 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Dec 31 2012, 12:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like it, because it isn't a choice. No marine commander will ever be sat thinking "well, do I really need power? I mean It does cost 10 res! That is very expensive, maybe I will just leave the base unpowered and lose instead". No, it will be on obvious choice, and will therefore be nothing more than an annoyance that the commander has to activate this ability at all, since it should just go off automatically whenever the power goes down.
Power packs, on the other hand, are entirely a choice, because they are pre-emptive. You decide how many you want, and how likely it is that they will be needed. Once you need them, they better already be built, because by then it is too late. I liked the power pack notion SO much and I really don't understand why UWE removed them. I would really like some feedback from them on this matter so we can instead make a concerted effort to brainstorm around the limiting factors of the power packs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you are right.But how about a cost adjustment ? well let´s say <b>3</b> or <b>5</b> Res?
The AlgerianJoin Date: 2012-12-22Member: 175962Members
I think it's fine the way it is. I've seen marines last stands that were going on for half an hour. On the other hands, when the aliens are under siege, they usually don't last long, eggs are far easier to destroy than infantry portals or power nodes. Yesterday two Onos attacked our base, I barely had time to spawn before they wrecked our IP's and I barely manage to jump out of it. I was the last marine alive as they were acting like I didn't exist, I grabbed a Flamethrower in the armory, and I flamed them, they came after me, I used the phase gate to get away, then rephased after reloading. Flamed them again, they died, i got into the command, rebuilt Ip's and I saved the day.
Try to do something like that when you're the last alien and your hive is attacked by two exos. You can't, unless they're really, really dumb.
<!--quoteo(post=2053979:date=Dec 31 2012, 06:21 PM:name=The Algerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Algerian @ Dec 31 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On the other hands, when the aliens are under siege, they usually don't last long, eggs are far easier to destroy than infantry portals or power nodes.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If there are no Gorges,no Whips then yes. <!--quoteo(post=2053979:date=Dec 31 2012, 06:21 PM:name=The Algerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Algerian @ Dec 31 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was the last marine alive as they were acting like I didn't exist, I grabbed a Flamethrower in the armory, and I flamed them, they came after me, I used the phase gate to get away, then rephased after reloading. Flamed them again, they died, i got into the command, rebuilt Ip's and I saved the day. Try to do something like that when you're the last alien and your hive is attacked by two exos. You can't, unless they're really, really dumb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You were really lucky dude.Anyway you did the right thing by using the phase gate to to accomplish this kind of feat but you know we don´t see this Everyday.I know some great Onos-Players who will not make the same mistake of letting those IP´s operational or giving you the chance to respawn again brave Soldier :D.
<!--quoteo(post=2053842:date=Dec 31 2012, 01:12 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Dec 31 2012, 01:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053842"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't like it, because it isn't a choice.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well i respect your opinion but i still like it and i will support it :) you can also combine this with a new great idea coming from a user called "slayer20" : " Hive emergency spawn system" ==> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126760" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126760</a> wich gives the both sides Marine/Alien a great emergency System.We all agree that the spawnsystem need really to be fixed.
<!--quoteo(post=2051675:date=Dec 26 2012, 10:56 PM:name=swalk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (swalk @ Dec 26 2012, 10:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2051675"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wrong assumption, rifles are do more DPS than shotguns.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're right, I really should have just said JP + W3. Just brain farted.
The AlgerianJoin Date: 2012-12-22Member: 175962Members
<!--quoteo(post=2054370:date=Jan 2 2013, 12:39 AM:name=bakkoto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bakkoto @ Jan 2 2013, 12:39 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2054370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there are no Gorges,no Whips then yes.
You were really lucky dude.Anyway you did the right thing by using the phase gate to to accomplish this kind of feat but you know we don´t see this Everyday.I know some great Onos-Players who will not make the same mistake of letting those IP´s operational or giving you the chance to respawn again brave Soldier :D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually what they were doing, taking out the IP's, that's why they didn't pay attention to me when I spawned last, jumped out and when I was grabbing a flame.
As for the whip, it's only a problem if nobody's using the flamethrower. It's really far far easier to take out an Alien base than a Marine one, and also it's by far more annoying to have your eggs destroyed than your IP's, at least with the IP's or the power out, you can be almost sure it's lost and you won't spawn. When the alien base is attacked, you don't spawn at all or you get constantly spawnkilled or you wait like an idiot when there's 1 egg remaining.
All and all, I really think Marine spawn/IP/Power/Beacon system is fine. Alien, though badly needs reworking, there's a reason you see much more F4'ing when Aliens are loosing than Marines.
<!--quoteo(post=2056661:date=Jan 5 2013, 04:25 PM:name=FadeToBlack)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FadeToBlack @ Jan 5 2013, 04:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2056661"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you can also combine this with a new great idea coming from a user called "slayer20" : " Hive emergency spawn system" ==> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126760" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126760</a> wich gives the both sides Marine/Alien a great emergency System.We all agree that the spawnsystem need really to be fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 great emergency System for both sides.
<!--quoteo(post=2049567:date=Dec 21 2012, 05:23 PM:name=Csae)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Csae @ Dec 21 2012, 05:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2049567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Keep in mind onos charge eats alot of energy and he needs the full 10range to get that 2x damage multiplier only once, which can be dodged. I think your complaint is based on misinterpretation of game mechanics. Without adren, or with a EMP/Flamethrower about, he will not be able to charge back out of the base, or keep up constant attacks. You CAN eat right through an onos energy reserves after he charges for too long and have him as your pet.
I do understand the point though, aliens rush power to end games, however the problem isn't with the onos but with the gorges and drifter combo, the comm receives far less warning and has a small window of reaction time to do anything about it, and even if you do get the beacon off, they might not kill the gorges in time and two skulks with xeno can take every single marine whos trying to rebuild power out instantly.
There is no such "OH SHI" moment for aliens other than ARCs, which any half decent Kahm would see coming and hope that his players listen and do something about it. A Kham does not have the same responsibilities as a marine Comm. Once there was a gorge biling our power (single, no drifter) with my entire team assaulting one of their bases, so i got out and a fade bumrushed me the moment i did by blinking into the base. Gorge proceeded to take out almost everything we owned and while they did finish off a hive, losing one hive for aliens is not as big a deal as losing main base, arms lab, proto, etc. Had a backup IP, but the res difference for rebuilding everything elsewhere is just too much. (15+15+15+20+15+40) no hive has that amount of res collected in one place, so even though a JP+GL might be able to do as much damage to upgrades as a gorge bile, its far more costly and can easily be countered via a whip. I have tried rushing upgrade clusters with a FL and it was nowhere near as fast or effective :(
I now keep a player at the 2nd TP to defend it and go comm beacon in emergencies, having him PG through to first TP means that i can get out and there will be two of us if needed, if a fade comes, he PGs back, and i run back into the chair, one or the other makes it and can beacon.
Possible things to do is have MACs around, or sentries, both open a larger window to react to a gorge, blocking doorways with robo facilities also seems an option...
My biggest pet peeve is that the chair does not always load me up, and it does not do it quickly. I sometimes have to jump up and down pressing E to get it to activate and it always closes so slowly.... A lil slot i could shoot out of would make soo much sense! Maybe its an upgrade to the CC, a little player controlled turret or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're talking 2 gorges, the commander, 2 skulks, and 3hive max tech in order to accomplish your "gorge drifter combo". If you have that hitting a base it had <i>better</i> go down.
Marines have 2 bases vs 3 hives, so keep that in mind when you are "balancing" costs. You're looking at the command (15) 2 IPs (30) adv armory (30) proto (40) phasegate (15), obs (15) and upgrades (25). Aliens on the other hand have the hive (40) at least 2 upgrades (20-25 each), and any number of whips (15 each) crags (10each) shifts (10each) and shades (10 each). That's almost the same exact loss depending on the number of upgrades and the number of defensive structures. Also not every marine base has proto, adv, arms, or robotics unless you are swimming in res, so you are talking about aliens taking out your MAIN base vs basically a satellite hive.
I do understand Aliens are pretty OP, but there are a lot of things that need to be considered at all levels of play. I'm not entirely convinced they even can be reasonably balanced. Nerf them too hard and they won't be able to take down a 1base endgame turtle or they won't stand even the tiniest chance against a good shooter. Then you have the whole exo vs onos thing where basically one of them hard counters the other no matter which way it goes.
well its a bit unfair that aliens cant respawn pretty much immediately after the die while aliens respawn after like 20 seconds reducing reinforcements during a siege on their last hive while marines are constantly respawning making marine turtles harder to end, aliens need a faster respawn system during a hive siege or over all,
<!--quoteo(post=2060160:date=Jan 13 2013, 12:15 PM:name=sHawke_Native)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sHawke_Native @ Jan 13 2013, 12:15 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2060160"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->well its a bit unfair that aliens cant respawn pretty much immediately after the die while aliens respawn after like 20 seconds reducing reinforcements during a siege on their last hive while marines are constantly respawning making marine turtles harder to end, aliens need a faster respawn system during a hive siege or over all,<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Shift spawns 2 eggs at a time for 5 res. An IP costs 15 res and only can spawn 1 marine at a time over a 5 second period. Aliens can have up to 10 eggs I believe on 1 shift. All which can spawn at the exact same time. That's a possible 10 aliens spawning at the same time. Marine bases generally only have 2 IP's per command center. That being said Kharaa have a much high respawn rate than marines. They also have the ability to place a shift anywhere on the map and spawn where they choose. Marines are confined to the radius of their command center. Seems even to me. If not more in the Kharaa favor.
I've read this entire thread, and I think what you're failing to take into account or don't measure as important is that egg-locking and node-focusing are strategies, with their own costs and benefits... and if you implement abilities that render these strategies obsolete, you've rendered a set of mechanics useless and meaningless.
That's the wrong way to go with it.
Secondly, Onos' range is not 10. A good jetpacker will rarely die to an equally good Onos in a fairly 'fair' room (Assuming the room has multiple cover, a fair ceiling height, etc). The only reason the JP dies is because he makes a terrible movement error, bad positioning, etc.
I support (vaguely) involving the power grid more into the game, but the solutions suggested simply render it pointless or a weaker target. As it is, any team focusing a power node is generally 'Doing it wrong'; there are more valuable things already to kill in most situations. (Abandoned Techpoint with PG and no marine? Go for PG/Obs., never power.)
The power provides an impromptu mechanic for resolving the inevidible and almost unfightable marine turtle scenario... I've played plenty of games where Aliens lock 4 hives down and I and a few other people in Double exo's can indefinitely trash dozens of incoming onos and whatever else they've got. Unless they can coordinate a truly organized multi-lifeform assault, the game will never end. Power helps alleviate this by providing a singular weak point in the turtle, which can be exploited to bring the turtle to its' knees in many situations. This is a *Good thing*.
Just some feedback on your idea.
TLDR Powergrid being involved in gameplay is good. Implementing mechanics to render powergrid/eggs meaningless is not. Onos are not >W3A3JPSG marines.... unless they're really, really bad at maneuvering.
I've read this entire thread, and I think what you're failing to take into account or don't measure as important is that egg-locking and node-focusing are strategies, with their own costs and benefits... and if you implement abilities that render these strategies obsolete, you've rendered a set of mechanics useless and meaningless.
-Colt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is just about adding an <b>Emergency-Spawn-System</b> (E.S.S) for both sides , Nothing more.
Comments
Weapons can be recovered, either by yourself or a team-mate. Even the most expensive gun is cheaper than a lerk.
Failure to upgrade to Gorge/Lerks/Fades mid-game leads to a lot of aliens losses, too. An exo covering troops will melt skulks, and even a skulk that's jumping and circle strafing only needs a few bullets from a minigun to turn him into a stain. Three fast moving targets <i>is</i> difficult to track as an Exo, but if you have even one or two guys with a flamethrower covering you it should be ok until they can weld you. I would never really claim that Exo is a counter to Onos. Rather Exo is a counter to Lerks and Fades, and a smart support turret for well-coordinated foot troops in an assault.
Not only that, but a dual exo can put a steady stream of firepower into a hive. That's pretty powerful even without concentrated LMG fire backing it up. (I.E. Troops are anti player, Exo are more anti-structure though they are effective at killing <i>certain</i> life forms while being far less than optimal against others.)
It just seems out of place for a 75 P.Res investment to be backup for free or cheap units, but that's pretty much what it is. Perhaps better UI targeting graphics would benefit the Exo, although the skulk targeting graphic is pretty helpful as is.
I think Weapons disappear after few seconds or minutes ( like 1 min i think .I´m not sure)
Can anyone confirm this please?
And each of them should cost ~15 res.
I was a marine the other day in a game where we were all distracted with some random fight somewhere while an onos was ravaging our power. None of us noticed it until it was too late, guess he had silence or something, I felt like a complete idiot noob not noticing a onos in our base. It shocked me that the whole team was pissed at our commander. It's not like they just sitting there staring at the base, they are throwing down medpacks/ammo and armories for their forces.
I think adding any sort of extra power source would cause even more annoying turtling, if anything I'd say make warnings louder and silence shouldn't count on base power nodes.
And each of them should cost ~15 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This will also be viewed as a solution for this Problem. +1
Don´t think so.It's like an insurance for marines ==> pay Res in case ###### happens you still have a fighting chance.
And each of them should cost ~15 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think all we need is power packs to power only Infantry Portals / Observatory (for a last Distress Beacon).
And something like <b>Build 205</b> "to power only a single structure nearby" + only <b>Infantry Portals / Observatory</b>.
Other alternative :
An <b>Support Ability</b> "power boost" activated at the Command Station by the <b>Marine Commander</b> at the <b>cost of Res</b>.
==> <b>provides power to the selected structure</b> (Infantry Portals / Observatory) <b>for</b> 20 sec or 10 sec etc ..
It's up to you guys to decide. So what do you think?
I'd also like to see a better notification system for marine structure damage. Perhaps an audible warning when main base power hits 75% health, 50% etc.
Wrong assumption, rifles are do more DPS than shotguns.
<!--quoteo(post=2050003:date=Dec 23 2012, 01:12 AM:name=bakkoto)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bakkoto @ Dec 23 2012, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2050003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've already heard enough of that.Dude you think Marines are the only ones who can get a good commander and a decent set of marines??! how about Alien-team ? are they sleeping?!! For the love of god, i´m talking about late game phase / both Teams are good / Onos everywhere and how it´s bad and frustrated to lose because of operation "<b>destroy the power node for the win</b>".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines are down to one base, going for the powernode would be the wrong target for the aliens anyway.
Destroying the powernode does not secure the win, the proper target would be the command station.
You can rebuild your base powernode, but you lose instantly if you lose your last commandstation.
Base powernode a good target if marines have both observatory and a phase gate up, and they are busy assaulting the alien team on another part of the map.
I'd also like to see a better notification system for marine structure damage. Perhaps an audible warning when main base power hits 75% health, 50% etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why not :)
If the marines are down to one base, going for the powernode would be the wrong target for the aliens anyway.
Destroying the powernode does not secure the win, the proper target would be the command station.
You can rebuild your base powernode, but you lose instantly if you lose your last commandstation.
Base powernode a good target if marines have both observatory and a phase gate up, and they are busy assaulting the alien team on another part of the map.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SO YOU'RE TELLING ME that even with the power node down and Onos are like everywhere you still have a chance ? or does not secure the win ??
Well ==> <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA</a>
==> provides <b>power</b> to the <b>selected structure</b> (Infantry Portals / Observatory) <b>for</b> 20 sec or 10 sec etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I love it. "Unknownworlds" what are you waiting for? This is fu**g Awesome. +1
I don't like it, because it isn't a choice. No marine commander will ever be sat thinking "well, do I really need power? I mean It does cost 10 res! That is very expensive, maybe I will just leave the base unpowered and lose instead". No, it will be on obvious choice, and will therefore be nothing more than an annoyance that the commander has to activate this ability at all, since it should just go off automatically whenever the power goes down.
Power packs, on the other hand, are entirely a choice, because they are pre-emptive. You decide how many you want, and how likely it is that they will be needed. Once you need them, they better already be built, because by then it is too late. I liked the power pack notion SO much and I really don't understand why UWE removed them. I would really like some feedback from them on this matter so we can instead make a concerted effort to brainstorm around the limiting factors of the power packs.
Where's Your Argument?
Power packs, on the other hand, are entirely a choice, because they are pre-emptive. You decide how many you want, and how likely it is that they will be needed. Once you need them, they better already be built, because by then it is too late. I liked the power pack notion SO much and I really don't understand why UWE removed them. I would really like some feedback from them on this matter so we can instead make a concerted effort to brainstorm around the limiting factors of the power packs.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think you are right.But how about a cost adjustment ? well let´s say <b>3</b> or <b>5</b> Res?
I've seen marines last stands that were going on for half an hour.
On the other hands, when the aliens are under siege, they usually don't last long, eggs are far easier to destroy than infantry portals or power nodes.
Yesterday two Onos attacked our base, I barely had time to spawn before they wrecked our IP's and I barely manage to jump out of it.
I was the last marine alive as they were acting like I didn't exist, I grabbed a Flamethrower in the armory, and I flamed them, they came after me, I used the phase gate to get away, then rephased after reloading. Flamed them again, they died, i got into the command, rebuilt Ip's and I saved the day.
Try to do something like that when you're the last alien and your hive is attacked by two exos. You can't, unless they're really, really dumb.
If there are no Gorges,no Whips then yes.
<!--quoteo(post=2053979:date=Dec 31 2012, 06:21 PM:name=The Algerian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Algerian @ Dec 31 2012, 06:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2053979"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was the last marine alive as they were acting like I didn't exist, I grabbed a Flamethrower in the armory, and I flamed them, they came after me, I used the phase gate to get away, then rephased after reloading. Flamed them again, they died, i got into the command, rebuilt Ip's and I saved the day.
Try to do something like that when you're the last alien and your hive is attacked by two exos. You can't, unless they're really, really dumb.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You were really lucky dude.Anyway you did the right thing by using the phase gate to to accomplish this kind of feat but you know we don´t see this Everyday.I know some great Onos-Players who will not make the same mistake of letting those IP´s operational or giving you the chance to respawn again brave Soldier :D.
Well i respect your opinion but i still like it and i will support it :) you can also combine this with a new great idea coming from a user called "slayer20" : " Hive emergency spawn system" ==> <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126760" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=126760</a>
wich gives the both sides Marine/Alien a great emergency System.We all agree that the spawnsystem need really to be fixed.
You're right, I really should have just said JP + W3. Just brain farted.
that way they will still work even after the powernode in the other base goes down
You were really lucky dude.Anyway you did the right thing by using the phase gate to to accomplish this kind of feat but you know we don´t see this Everyday.I know some great Onos-Players who will not make the same mistake of letting those IP´s operational or giving you the chance to respawn again brave Soldier :D.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually what they were doing, taking out the IP's, that's why they didn't pay attention to me when I spawned last, jumped out and when I was grabbing a flame.
As for the whip, it's only a problem if nobody's using the flamethrower.
It's really far far easier to take out an Alien base than a Marine one, and also it's by far more annoying to have your eggs destroyed than your IP's, at least with the IP's or the power out, you can be almost sure it's lost and you won't spawn.
When the alien base is attacked, you don't spawn at all or you get constantly spawnkilled or you wait like an idiot when there's 1 egg remaining.
All and all, I really think Marine spawn/IP/Power/Beacon system is fine.
Alien, though badly needs reworking, there's a reason you see much more F4'ing when Aliens are loosing than Marines.
wich gives the both sides Marine/Alien a great emergency System.We all agree that the spawnsystem need really to be fixed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 great emergency System for both sides.
I do understand the point though, aliens rush power to end games, however the problem isn't with the onos but with the gorges and drifter combo, the comm receives far less warning and has a small window of reaction time to do anything about it, and even if you do get the beacon off, they might not kill the gorges in time and two skulks with xeno can take every single marine whos trying to rebuild power out instantly.
There is no such "OH SHI" moment for aliens other than ARCs, which any half decent Kahm would see coming and hope that his players listen and do something about it. A Kham does not have the same responsibilities as a marine Comm. Once there was a gorge biling our power (single, no drifter) with my entire team assaulting one of their bases, so i got out and a fade bumrushed me the moment i did by blinking into the base. Gorge proceeded to take out almost everything we owned and while they did finish off a hive, losing one hive for aliens is not as big a deal as losing main base, arms lab, proto, etc. Had a backup IP, but the res difference for rebuilding everything elsewhere is just too much. (15+15+15+20+15+40) no hive has that amount of res collected in one place, so even though a JP+GL might be able to do as much damage to upgrades as a gorge bile, its far more costly and can easily be countered via a whip. I have tried rushing upgrade clusters with a FL and it was nowhere near as fast or effective :(
I now keep a player at the 2nd TP to defend it and go comm beacon in emergencies, having him PG through to first TP means that i can get out and there will be two of us if needed, if a fade comes, he PGs back, and i run back into the chair, one or the other makes it and can beacon.
Possible things to do is have MACs around, or sentries, both open a larger window to react to a gorge, blocking doorways with robo facilities also seems an option...
My biggest pet peeve is that the chair does not always load me up, and it does not do it quickly. I sometimes have to jump up and down pressing E to get it to activate and it always closes so slowly.... A lil slot i could shoot out of would make soo much sense! Maybe its an upgrade to the CC, a little player controlled turret or something.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're talking 2 gorges, the commander, 2 skulks, and 3hive max tech in order to accomplish your "gorge drifter combo". If you have that hitting a base it had <i>better</i> go down.
Marines have 2 bases vs 3 hives, so keep that in mind when you are "balancing" costs. You're looking at the command (15) 2 IPs (30) adv armory (30) proto (40) phasegate (15), obs (15) and upgrades (25). Aliens on the other hand have the hive (40) at least 2 upgrades (20-25 each), and any number of whips (15 each) crags (10each) shifts (10each) and shades (10 each). That's almost the same exact loss depending on the number of upgrades and the number of defensive structures. Also not every marine base has proto, adv, arms, or robotics unless you are swimming in res, so you are talking about aliens taking out your MAIN base vs basically a satellite hive.
I do understand Aliens are pretty OP, but there are a lot of things that need to be considered at all levels of play. I'm not entirely convinced they even can be reasonably balanced. Nerf them too hard and they won't be able to take down a 1base endgame turtle or they won't stand even the tiniest chance against a good shooter. Then you have the whole exo vs onos thing where basically one of them hard counters the other no matter which way it goes.
Shift spawns 2 eggs at a time for 5 res. An IP costs 15 res and only can spawn 1 marine at a time over a 5 second period. Aliens can have up to 10 eggs I believe on 1 shift. All which can spawn at the exact same time. That's a possible 10 aliens spawning at the same time. Marine bases generally only have 2 IP's per command center. That being said Kharaa have a much high respawn rate than marines. They also have the ability to place a shift anywhere on the map and spawn where they choose. Marines are confined to the radius of their command center. Seems even to me. If not more in the Kharaa favor.
I've read this entire thread, and I think what you're failing to take into account or don't measure as important is that egg-locking and node-focusing are strategies, with their own costs and benefits... and if you implement abilities that render these strategies obsolete, you've rendered a set of mechanics useless and meaningless.
That's the wrong way to go with it.
Secondly, Onos' range is not 10. A good jetpacker will rarely die to an equally good Onos in a fairly 'fair' room (Assuming the room has multiple cover, a fair ceiling height, etc). The only reason the JP dies is because he makes a terrible movement error, bad positioning, etc.
I support (vaguely) involving the power grid more into the game, but the solutions suggested simply render it pointless or a weaker target. As it is, any team focusing a power node is generally 'Doing it wrong'; there are more valuable things already to kill in most situations. (Abandoned Techpoint with PG and no marine? Go for PG/Obs., never power.)
The power provides an impromptu mechanic for resolving the inevidible and almost unfightable marine turtle scenario... I've played plenty of games where Aliens lock 4 hives down and I and a few other people in Double exo's can indefinitely trash dozens of incoming onos and whatever else they've got. Unless they can coordinate a truly organized multi-lifeform assault, the game will never end. Power helps alleviate this by providing a singular weak point in the turtle, which can be exploited to bring the turtle to its' knees in many situations. This is a *Good thing*.
Just some feedback on your idea.
TLDR Powergrid being involved in gameplay is good. Implementing mechanics to render powergrid/eggs meaningless is not. Onos are not >W3A3JPSG marines.... unless they're really, really bad at maneuvering.
-Colt
I've read this entire thread, and I think what you're failing to take into account or don't measure as important is that egg-locking and node-focusing are strategies, with their own costs and benefits... and if you implement abilities that render these strategies obsolete, you've rendered a set of mechanics useless and meaningless.
-Colt<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is just about adding an <b>Emergency-Spawn-System</b> (E.S.S) for both sides , Nothing more.