<!--quoteo(post=2057097:date=Jan 6 2013, 05:44 PM:name=MisterYoon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterYoon @ Jan 6 2013, 05:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057097"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Drifter may seem not that important or not that useful enough if you think ns2 is just a fps game.
But it's actually not. And i find it really unacceptable to have such a cheap scouter for this kind of game. It's almost like map hack. Marines cannot do something but just stick together and shoot. No ninja anymore, no distraction by sneaking into alien base or killing their rts.
This has become so obvious that drifters are just stragetically overpowered as i watched some competitive matches. Aliens could just know what's going on through the entire map just with 10-15 res. They are even invisible, and invincible unless marines shoot. No more touch revealing their appreance.
I hope you don't metion 'not that good enough' public matches for reply on this topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
>2012+1 >Not scanning a room before sending your team in
<!--quoteo(post=2057439:date=Jan 7 2013, 09:50 AM:name=umphrey)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (umphrey @ Jan 7 2013, 09:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057439"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What does the drifter attack do?
They should make it so the marines know there is a drifter somewhere in the room when they enter it, but not it's actual location.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It bites for 5 damage. Particularly hilarious if you've managed to wall in marines at the start of the game, then get on 4 hives and send 20 in spamming enzymes and munching them all. Man, I wish I'd recorded those games.
<!--quoteo(post=2057161:date=Jan 6 2013, 07:33 PM:name=OnosFactory)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (OnosFactory @ Jan 6 2013, 07:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057161"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sweet so you lose *sniper* and COH throws a loss online?
Glad I sold that game 2nd hand after one SP playthrough then. Sounds terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2057171:date=Jan 6 2013, 08:03 PM:name=thefonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thefonz @ Jan 6 2013, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OT, he is wrong about CoH. Really wrong. A shame you didn't stick around to play MP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meanwhile, you both just misunderstood. I wrote that you'll lose the game directly, but that actually means that it would bring you to lose game, not direct. So no return, if you lose a sniper by mistake or by skirmish against enemy sniper. Especially on early 1v1 or 2v2 high level radder match. The reason is that they are as expensive as one and half squad(1 man is as expensive as 8~10 men!). That means, each player should pay attention to each snipers like their new born baby, and never lose by a mistake, as you can never win against enemy infantries by number if you lose him. That's what i meant, not meant that you'll just see a banner "You won" "You lost" just after losing/killing sniper, of course.
Also meanwhile, back to the topic, no one actually cares that much if drifters get killed. No much res loss. And he is damn fast while sniper of coh is damn slow. A big difference isn't it?
p.s. I would not mention how strong and important the sniper is when a player uses it really well. Because it's not about the topic :) and not needed.
<!--quoteo(post=2057436:date=Jan 7 2013, 09:42 AM:name=CommunistWithAGun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CommunistWithAGun @ Jan 7 2013, 09:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057436"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->>2012+1 >Not scanning a room before sending your team in<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh really? Would you scan every room across to the point for ninja attack/phase gate? Wouldn't it be too expensive, as marines must be running out of resources as they try to ninja rush? And marines' tactics and positions will be anyway revealed, as a marines or a group of marines kill(s) it. Otherwise they will just see. That's problem. Drifter, which costs only 3 let aliens just strategically have so much advantages. You still don't get it. If drifter would cost maybe 10 or 15, i would never say it's a bit overpowered. It actually should cost at least 20 or 30 according to other famous rts games' reacon/scout units. A sniper of company of heroes, which has as low health as drifter, and even really really slow, but invisible costs 300 to 360 resources. A player gain initially only 250~260 resources. And he must wait at least one and half minutes to regain that amount of resources which is used for producing a sniper. But Drifter? If you have 3 RTs(normally)? You can reproduce it just after several seconds. 6? 8? And even Company of Heroes has tons of more job than Khammander.
People. Drifter is like constant/permanent scan on a room only with 3 tres, how would this be fair enough? Scan costs also 3 tres but temporary. You don't get it. Even if drifters get killed in 3~5 seconds somewhere, they did as much job as one scan.
I say again. No single reacon unit of famous rts games is all invisible, fast, and cheap, and tier1 unit. They have at least 1 or 2 disadvantages, most of them have low health, drifters have also low health, that's good. But it's fast, and also insivible. Are snipers of company of heroes fast? Are Vessels of Terran(Starcraft) is like tier 3 unit. Overlord of Zerg is slowest ever till tier 3. Jeep/Mortorcycles of Company of Heroes is never invisible. However all of them costs definately far lot than how Drifter costs.
There is one single example of fast-cheap-invisible tier1 unit on an other rts game. A kind of mortorcycle of Panzer Elite(another type ofgerman trooper), on Company of Heroes. But that type of 'team' is supposed to reacon, hide, observe, trick, trap opponents rather than ambush. And all of their units are slow except that single reacon unit. However, lovely Aliens of Natural Selection? They are originally fast, ambushing everywhere. And they even have best kind of(cheap, or rather cheapest, invisible, permanent, fast) reacon/scout unit. How could this be fair enough?
The one thing I'd like to point out is that "It's not like this in popular RTS games" is not a very compelling argument for much of anything. These are different games with different mechanics and different design philosophies.
As for drifters being overpowered? Depends. If it's overpowered anywhere, it's at competitive play (which is where the game should be balanced around, arguably), but I'm not sure how often they're complained about there. Could be one of those overpowered things that people take for granted, and so are deemed acceptably overpowered, in a way.
Other people have pointed out convincing reasons why the Drifter isn't overpowered. I'd like to hear some convincing reasons why it is, because "CoH scouts are expensive" is not.
"It's in every match of NS2" could be, but the same could be said about mines, and other things; that's not a problem in itself.
Probably i wrote too much and you would think that i think drifter needs radical change. But no, i think it would be fine if it could be revealed by touching him, decrease cap a bit, cost some more resource, or also slow.
<!--quoteo(post=2057486:date=Jan 7 2013, 10:59 AM:name=MisterYoon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterYoon @ Jan 7 2013, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057486"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Probably i wrote too much and you would think that i think drifter needs radical change. But no, i think it would be fine if it could be revealed by touching him, decrease cap a bit, cost some more resource, or also slow.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you slow it, it can't keep up with your teammates on the ground so that it can enzyme them. Increase cost, yes, but not so much that you never see them anymore.
Enzyme is the bees knees! I don't care about scouting with drifters as much as keeping them where I expect fights to happen. Drifter's aren't scouts, they're Enzyme Delivery Platforms.
I would only want to see camo be an upgrade for them (like mac emp) if gorges could build short-range alien observatories (like old sense chambers). Then the Khamm has to make a call between mobile invisible detectors and letting his gorges lay down the scout network (although spamming a few extra cysts down a hallway pretty much does this already).
I really don't think drifters are that op... they can be enough to put a team over the top to win in some instances, but they're also fairly easy to destroy. I believe the players are better scouts anyway, and they're relatively free resource-wise. On the other hand, the buff is really nice early on for hitting lightly guarded structures quickly; this can really make or break a fight/base rush.
Personally, I find that it becomes fairly obvious where drifters are when you get ###### on by a random pack of aliens. Just like in Dota, it's not hard to realize a team has wards. From there a conscious decision is made to either counter this, or not.
I think they are fine anyway because of the way they scale with respect to player skill. In low/mid level skill, they probably aren't going to get used much by the khamm. If they are, some team members aren't going to notice on their map anyway. In higher skill games when they get used a lot, I feel like aliens can use the boost, because at high skill levels, basic marines trump basic skulks.
you know what would solve this whole problem. A device for Marines to see / detect cloaked aliens / structures. Then you can see the drifter wiithout having to keep spending tres on scans to find the drifter
<!--quoteo(post=2057561:date=Jan 7 2013, 03:30 PM:name=Dwavenhobble)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dwavenhobble @ Jan 7 2013, 03:30 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057561"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->you know what would solve this whole problem. A device for Marines to see / detect cloaked aliens / structures. Then you can see the drifter wiithout having to keep spending tres on scans to find the drifter<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course there would have to be some kind of limitation on such a device, as not to utterly ruin camo.
<!--quoteo(post=2057567:date=Jan 7 2013, 09:45 PM:name=WhiteWeasel)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (WhiteWeasel @ Jan 7 2013, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057567"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course there would have to be some kind of limitation on such a device, as not to utterly ruin camo.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Exactly but I've kept suggesting a visor thing that only shows organisms producing a cloaking field. It however wouldn't show anything else other than maybe at best a very vague indication of walls etc. Basically using it would make you blind to non cloaked enemies or enemies cloaked via being near a shade so you'd need someone about to cover you from any other attacks meaning personal stealth would still let you hide, heck you could even to an extent hide in plain sight with it. So if Marine enters the room with EMF visor on they'd see those cloaked but not anyone non cloaked. Essentially it cancels the benefits of cloak but in using it then turns all those benefits onto uncloakced enemies vs the person using it.
The key point behind it being it would encourage teamwork as while you'd have someone protecting from cloaked enemies you'd need someone to protect them from non cloaked.
Also obviously there would be research and a fairly low Pres cost. I.E. you can buy a welder and be essentially a defensive Marine / fixer support. Or you can pick up visor and help the offence more.
Difference is you can kill a Drifter, and deny the Alien team vision. Scan, is just that, see what you want, where you want, when you want, for x amount of seconds.
Funny thing, when you Comm Aliens long enough, you can start guessing where the Alien Comm will tuck Drifters while playing Marines, assuming they use them.
<!--quoteo(post=2057171:date=Jan 6 2013, 08:03 PM:name=thefonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thefonz @ Jan 6 2013, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->On topic... Drifters are too good at scouting imo. Basically they amount to a permanent, invisible scan. LOS if plenty in many cases, and possibly further than scan with good positioning. I get the asymetry aspects of NS2, but I still think the drifter can be changed in a useful and fitting way. Basically, drifters should get perks based on the hives the aliens have up.
If the aliens have: Crag: tougher drifters, maybe slow HP regen. Shift: drifter gets the enzyme ability. Shade: drifter gets passive invisibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like an excellent solution. It would also move the arguably OP invisibility to Shade hive, which is not so great for combat.
Drifters can be very good... with enzyme, they can be amazing... they can also be massive res-sinks that do nothing.
You'll get more out of them if you go shade-last because the marines wont be scanning everything like mad... but its still a gamble putting loads of drifters around hot-spots because just like you, the marine commander wants to see what's there too.
<!--quoteo(post=2057506:date=Jan 7 2013, 12:03 PM:name=MMZ_Torak)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MMZ_Torak @ Jan 7 2013, 12:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You just described most things in the game...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah Yeah, funny, still saying same thing. If you can speak and understand any kind of language, you could have already understand what i meant. Or you are just denying the fact.
We arrived at drifters as scouts after alot of mucking around with them building structures and map-hivesight on infestation though, I'm pretty sure they *mostly* work as is.
<!--quoteo(post=2057105:date=Jan 7 2013, 12:02 AM:name=MisterYoon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MisterYoon @ Jan 7 2013, 12:02 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057105"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I forgot to write down some examples of 'scout units' of some real RTS games.
Starcraft : firstly, what important is that all 3 types of team can have their good scout units.
Observer of Protoss - it needs really lots of upgrades to get it. Overlord of Zerg - really really really slow Some structures(scan, turret), units(vessel etc) of Marine - need some/lots of upgrades and pretty limited on several aspect, cost a lot.
Company of Heroes : what important is that Company Of Heroes has really limited amount of observing/scout units. Almost nothing, or cost hell a lot.
* Wehrmacht (German forces) and also American - Bicycle/Jeep : fast but really weak. Never invisible - Sniper : Invisible, but if get killed, you'll would just directly lose the entire match. And cost a lot - Any other observing skills : cost really really much
* Panzer Elite (another type of German forces) - they have plenty of observing posibilities and units, compare to others. But that's all they can do. They suppose to observe and then guerilla or hide and attack at once with really strong unit.
* British Forces - they suppose to have no observing units. They can have only around their bases. Even units are completely slow till the high tier. Asymmetrical from Panzer Elite.
in compare to those two most popular/probably best RTS game, alien's drifter seems to me really unacceptable. I completely really think it ruins strategic gameplay of ns2. It's invisible, cheap, fast. If there was a single unit which is like that in those two games, people would just sing 'op'.
To summurize, as you see, no single unit on those two best example of good rts game has such a scout unit(except that panzer elite of coh, which suppose to observe, hide throughout entire the match), which is fast, cheap, invisible. But drifter does. Of course, natural selection 2 is a different game, but it's still maybe half-strategic game and i say again, i really think drifter should be handled somehow. Not like now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In CoH, Amis have recon run, which works like scan, you spend resources ( 50 ammo ) to reveal a portion of the map. Wehr have Advanced Warning, it extends line of sight. Panzer elite sucks, overpowered trash. Britsh... i hate'em.
I still haven't seen any reasoning as to <i>why</i> Drifters are overpowered. Making more suggestions on how to nerf them doesn't address why they should be nerfed.
They're a superior scouting solution to anything the marines have, but people have already mentioned why this is alright (aliens lack map mobility that marines have).
people seem to ignore scan cost 3 RES and lasts about 5 seconds. so yea although it's not that unfair, it's still of significance especially in the beginning of the game.
i think fair adjustments would be
-invisible only when there is a shade hive -invisiblity must be upgraded or else its just a regular drifter not cloaked
<!--quoteo(post=2057933:date=Jan 8 2013, 11:46 AM:name=NikolaiLev)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NikolaiLev @ Jan 8 2013, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still haven't seen any reasoning as to <i>why</i> Drifters are overpowered. Making more suggestions on how to nerf them doesn't address why they should be nerfed.
They're a superior scouting solution to anything the marines have, but people have already mentioned why this is alright (aliens lack map mobility that marines have).
Remember, asymmetry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I guess you missed the original post citing drifters' cost, invisibility, and durability. Just because they are not overpowered <i>in your opinion</i>, it does not mean it's one of the most powerful tool at a Khamm's disposal. Remember, asymmetry.
<!--quoteo(post=2058089:date=Jan 9 2013, 12:52 AM:name=Makenshi)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Makenshi @ Jan 9 2013, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess you missed the original post citing drifters' cost, invisibility, and durability. Just because they are not overpowered <i>in your opinion</i>, it does not mean it's one of the most powerful tool at a Khamm's disposal. Remember, asymmetry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How exactly is that a counter arguement, all you did was refering to another guys opinion of what is op to counter that very flaw... What? I still don't see any arguement why drifters are so much better than properly used scans, aka when atking. Place recycable(?) obs if you wanmap awareness, cost 3 res.
Comments
But it's actually not. And i find it really unacceptable to have such a cheap scouter for this kind of game. It's almost like map hack. Marines cannot do something but just stick together and shoot. No ninja anymore, no distraction by sneaking into alien base or killing their rts.
This has become so obvious that drifters are just stragetically overpowered as i watched some competitive matches. Aliens could just know what's going on through the entire map just with 10-15 res. They are even invisible, and invincible unless marines shoot. No more touch revealing their appreance.
I hope you don't metion 'not that good enough' public matches for reply on this topic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
>2012+1
>Not scanning a room before sending your team in
They should make it so the marines know there is a drifter somewhere in the room when they enter it, but not it's actual location.
They should make it so the marines know there is a drifter somewhere in the room when they enter it, but not it's actual location.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It bites for 5 damage. Particularly hilarious if you've managed to wall in marines at the start of the game, then get on 4 hives and send 20 in spamming enzymes and munching them all. Man, I wish I'd recorded those games.
Glad I sold that game 2nd hand after one SP playthrough then. Sounds terrible.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2057171:date=Jan 6 2013, 08:03 PM:name=thefonz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (thefonz @ Jan 6 2013, 08:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OT, he is wrong about CoH. Really wrong. A shame you didn't stick around to play MP.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meanwhile, you both just misunderstood. I wrote that you'll lose the game directly, but that actually means that it would bring you to lose game, not direct. So no return, if you lose a sniper by mistake or by skirmish against enemy sniper. Especially on early 1v1 or 2v2 high level radder match. The reason is that they are as expensive as one and half squad(1 man is as expensive as 8~10 men!). That means, each player should pay attention to each snipers like their new born baby, and never lose by a mistake, as you can never win against enemy infantries by number if you lose him. That's what i meant, not meant that you'll just see a banner "You won" "You lost" just after losing/killing sniper, of course.
Also meanwhile, back to the topic, no one actually cares that much if drifters get killed. No much res loss. And he is damn fast while sniper of coh is damn slow. A big difference isn't it?
p.s. I would not mention how strong and important the sniper is when a player uses it really well. Because it's not about the topic :) and not needed.
>Not scanning a room before sending your team in<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh really? Would you scan every room across to the point for ninja attack/phase gate? Wouldn't it be too expensive, as marines must be running out of resources as they try to ninja rush? And marines' tactics and positions will be anyway revealed, as a marines or a group of marines kill(s) it. Otherwise they will just see. That's problem. Drifter, which costs only 3 let aliens just strategically have so much advantages. You still don't get it. If drifter would cost maybe 10 or 15, i would never say it's a bit overpowered. It actually should cost at least 20 or 30 according to other famous rts games' reacon/scout units. A sniper of company of heroes, which has as low health as drifter, and even really really slow, but invisible costs 300 to 360 resources. A player gain initially only 250~260 resources. And he must wait at least one and half minutes to regain that amount of resources which is used for producing a sniper. But Drifter? If you have 3 RTs(normally)? You can reproduce it just after several seconds. 6? 8? And even Company of Heroes has tons of more job than Khammander.
People. Drifter is like constant/permanent scan on a room only with 3 tres, how would this be fair enough? Scan costs also 3 tres but temporary. You don't get it. Even if drifters get killed in 3~5 seconds somewhere, they did as much job as one scan.
I say again. No single reacon unit of famous rts games is all invisible, fast, and cheap, and tier1 unit. They have at least 1 or 2 disadvantages, most of them have low health, drifters have also low health, that's good. But it's fast, and also insivible. Are snipers of company of heroes fast? Are Vessels of Terran(Starcraft) is like tier 3 unit. Overlord of Zerg is slowest ever till tier 3. Jeep/Mortorcycles of Company of Heroes is never invisible. However all of them costs definately far lot than how Drifter costs.
There is one single example of fast-cheap-invisible tier1 unit on an other rts game. A kind of mortorcycle of Panzer Elite(another type ofgerman trooper), on Company of Heroes. But that type of 'team' is supposed to reacon, hide, observe, trick, trap opponents rather than ambush. And all of their units are slow except that single reacon unit. However, lovely Aliens of Natural Selection? They are originally fast, ambushing everywhere. And they even have best kind of(cheap, or rather cheapest, invisible, permanent, fast) reacon/scout unit. How could this be fair enough?
As for drifters being overpowered? Depends. If it's overpowered anywhere, it's at competitive play (which is where the game should be balanced around, arguably), but I'm not sure how often they're complained about there. Could be one of those overpowered things that people take for granted, and so are deemed acceptably overpowered, in a way.
Other people have pointed out convincing reasons why the Drifter isn't overpowered. I'd like to hear some convincing reasons why it is, because "CoH scouts are expensive" is not.
"It's in every match of NS2" could be, but the same could be said about mines, and other things; that's not a problem in itself.
If you slow it, it can't keep up with your teammates on the ground so that it can enzyme them. Increase cost, yes, but not so much that you never see them anymore.
I would only want to see camo be an upgrade for them (like mac emp) if gorges could build short-range alien observatories (like old sense chambers). Then the Khamm has to make a call between mobile invisible detectors and letting his gorges lay down the scout network (although spamming a few extra cysts down a hallway pretty much does this already).
orly :P
You just described most things in the game...
Personally, I find that it becomes fairly obvious where drifters are when you get ###### on by a random pack of aliens. Just like in Dota, it's not hard to realize a team has wards. From there a conscious decision is made to either counter this, or not.
Of course there would have to be some kind of limitation on such a device, as not to utterly ruin camo.
Exactly but I've kept suggesting a visor thing that only shows organisms producing a cloaking field. It however wouldn't show anything else other than maybe at best a very vague indication of walls etc.
Basically using it would make you blind to non cloaked enemies or enemies cloaked via being near a shade so you'd need someone about to cover you from any other attacks meaning personal stealth would still let you hide, heck you could even to an extent hide in plain sight with it. So if Marine enters the room with EMF visor on they'd see those cloaked but not anyone non cloaked. Essentially it cancels the benefits of cloak but in using it then turns all those benefits onto uncloakced enemies vs the person using it.
The key point behind it being it would encourage teamwork as while you'd have someone protecting from cloaked enemies you'd need someone to protect them from non cloaked.
Also obviously there would be research and a fairly low Pres cost. I.E. you can buy a welder and be essentially a defensive Marine / fixer support. Or you can pick up visor and help the offence more.
Basically an invisible, mobile op without bacon
Funny thing, when you Comm Aliens long enough, you can start guessing where the Alien Comm will tuck Drifters while playing Marines, assuming they use them.
Be mindful of these small things.
If the aliens have:
Crag: tougher drifters, maybe slow HP regen.
Shift: drifter gets the enzyme ability.
Shade: drifter gets passive invisibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sounds like an excellent solution. It would also move the arguably OP invisibility to Shade hive, which is not so great for combat.
You'll get more out of them if you go shade-last because the marines wont be scanning everything like mad... but its still a gamble putting loads of drifters around hot-spots because just like you, the marine commander wants to see what's there too.
Yeah Yeah, funny, still saying same thing. If you can speak and understand any kind of language, you could have already understand what i meant. Or you are just denying the fact.
If you have 8+ of them you can kill a single marine with an assault rifle with them ;-)
I'm willing to accept that drifters may need an adjustment but the effectiveness of tactical scan is completely irrelevant
We arrived at drifters as scouts after alot of mucking around with them building structures and map-hivesight on infestation though, I'm pretty sure they *mostly* work as is.
Starcraft :
firstly, what important is that all 3 types of team can have their good scout units.
Observer of Protoss - it needs really lots of upgrades to get it.
Overlord of Zerg - really really really slow
Some structures(scan, turret), units(vessel etc) of Marine - need some/lots of upgrades and pretty limited on several aspect, cost a lot.
Company of Heroes :
what important is that Company Of Heroes has really limited amount of observing/scout units. Almost nothing, or cost hell a lot.
* Wehrmacht (German forces) and also American
- Bicycle/Jeep : fast but really weak. Never invisible
- Sniper : Invisible, but if get killed, you'll would just directly lose the entire match. And cost a lot
- Any other observing skills : cost really really much
* Panzer Elite (another type of German forces)
- they have plenty of observing posibilities and units, compare to others. But that's all they can do. They suppose to observe and then guerilla or hide and attack at once with really strong unit.
* British Forces
- they suppose to have no observing units. They can have only around their bases. Even units are completely slow till the high tier. Asymmetrical from Panzer Elite.
in compare to those two most popular/probably best RTS game, alien's drifter seems to me really unacceptable.
I completely really think it ruins strategic gameplay of ns2.
It's invisible, cheap, fast. If there was a single unit which is like that in those two games, people would just sing 'op'.
To summurize, as you see, no single unit on those two best example of good rts game has such a scout unit(except that panzer elite of coh, which suppose to observe, hide throughout entire the match), which is fast, cheap, invisible. But drifter does.
Of course, natural selection 2 is a different game, but it's still maybe half-strategic game and i say again, i really think drifter should be handled somehow. Not like now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In CoH, Amis have recon run, which works like scan, you spend resources ( 50 ammo ) to reveal a portion of the map.
Wehr have Advanced Warning, it extends line of sight.
Panzer elite sucks, overpowered trash.
Britsh... i hate'em.
They're a superior scouting solution to anything the marines have, but people have already mentioned why this is alright (aliens lack map mobility that marines have).
Remember, asymmetry.
i think fair adjustments would be
-invisible only when there is a shade hive
-invisiblity must be upgraded or else its just a regular drifter not cloaked
They're a superior scouting solution to anything the marines have, but people have already mentioned why this is alright (aliens lack map mobility that marines have).
Remember, asymmetry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess you missed the original post citing drifters' cost, invisibility, and durability.
Just because they are not overpowered <i>in your opinion</i>, it does not mean it's one of the most powerful tool at a Khamm's disposal.
Remember, asymmetry.
Just because they are not overpowered <i>in your opinion</i>, it does not mean it's one of the most powerful tool at a Khamm's disposal.
Remember, asymmetry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How exactly is that a counter arguement, all you did was refering to another guys opinion of what is op to counter that very flaw... What? I still don't see any arguement why drifters are so much better than properly used scans, aka when atking. Place recycable(?) obs if you wanmap awareness, cost 3 res.