What if they were "blind" unless <b>the Khamm uses</b> their <i>ability</i> to sense lifeforms. (Kind of like a scan, but requires the drifter to physically be present).
That way their cost makes a little more sense for how mobile and cloaked they can be. The Khamm will have to actively use the drifters. Less OP enough?
Easy way to solve this. Drifters remain the same as they are. Except when scanned. If they are not relocated, there will be a drifter icon in it's exact location on the minimap even after the scan expires. That way they're still useful and the Khaam has to stay on top of them instead of just throwing them out there in the first 5 minutes and gaining the upper-hand 3/4 of the time.
<!--quoteo(post=2057933:date=Jan 8 2013, 08:46 AM:name=NikolaiLev)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NikolaiLev @ Jan 8 2013, 08:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still haven't seen any reasoning as to <i>why</i> Drifters are overpowered. Making more suggestions on how to nerf them doesn't address why they should be nerfed.
They're a superior scouting solution to anything the marines have, but people have already mentioned why this is alright (aliens lack map mobility that marines have).
Because they provide infinite duration, nearly undetectable scouting information, which for a low cost you can easily place at every key choke point. Since you want me to spoon feed it to you:
NS2 is a strategy game in which ultimately the victor is the team that controls a large number of resources while denying the other team the same. Of course FPS skill plays a role in this as well. However, since marines are typically stronger/aggressive early on and have a slower movespeed, the aliens teams success is based strongly upon on information about where the marine team is going to attack. This means that gaining scouting information is key to alien victory and drifters provide unending cheap and durable scouting information. Of course, marines depend strongly on scouting information as well, but I would say to a lesser degree because of their ability to use phase gates to defend positions very quickly and the recycle function.
Get it now?
PS, when people just say, "asymmetry" for their argument about why something is fine it blows my mind -.-.
<!--quoteo(post=2058117:date=Jan 8 2013, 07:28 PM:name=statikg)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (statikg @ Jan 8 2013, 07:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058117"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because they provide infinite duration, nearly undetectable scouting information, which for a low cost you can easily place at every key choke point. Since you want me to spoon feed it to you:
NS2 is a strategy game in which ultimately the victor is the team that controls a large number of resources while denying the other team the same. Of course FPS skill plays a role in this as well. However, since marines are typically stronger/aggressive early on and have a slower movespeed, the aliens teams success is based strongly upon on information about where the marine team is going to attack. This means that gaining scouting information is key to alien victory and drifters provide unending cheap and durable scouting information. Of course, marines depend strongly on scouting information as well, but I would say to a lesser degree because of their ability to use phase gates to defend positions very quickly and the recycle function.
Get it now?
PS, when people just say, "asymmetry" for their argument about why something is fine it blows my mind -.-.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said yourself that marines are less dependant on scouting, for a few reasons. This in turns means aliens are <i>more</i> dependent on it. Naturally, aliens need a superior scouting solution or else they'll be at a large strategic disadvantage.
My argument isn't that Drifters aren't powerful. It's that aliens need them to be. After all, counterplay does exist; Drifters can be removed via a scan, as we know, and common drifter spots can be probed with bullets (not to mention flamethrowers and grenade launchers).
However, considering the current alien winrate in both public play and competitive play, Drifters could be the area we can hit.
But it's important to keep in mind what this will affect; establishing the alien's dependence on scout units is crucial because if we don't, we're liable to take something down from excellent to useless, which would cause other problems.
If Drifters warrant a nerf, it should be slight; no doubt something that simply enables more marine counterplay (like bumping into them reveals them). Further, if Drifters are to be nerfed (which might be deserved), I feel as though aliens also deserve another option for scouting; one that fills another sort of niche in the realm of information gathering (perhaps a scan-like ability). What that option might be, I don't know. That ought to have its own thread.
<!--quoteo(post=2058099:date=Jan 8 2013, 07:46 PM:name=SanCo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SanCo @ Jan 8 2013, 07:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058099"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How exactly is that a counter arguement, all you did was refering to another guys opinion of what is op to counter that very flaw... What? I still don't see any arguement why drifters are so much better than properly used scans, aka when atking. Place recycable(?) obs if you wanmap awareness, cost 3 res.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What part of my post was hard to understand? The post I quoted cited asymmetry as the reason why you can't compare the utility between ob and drifters. I am saying that exactly due to this asymmetry, any argument for or against drifters being op is going to be opinions. How the hell do you think games are balanced anyways? Yea yea it's backed up by statistics and analysis, but when push comes to shoves, they are ALL opinions. Some people consider drifter's cost, invisibility, and durability as being overpowered. That's about as objective as it gets. Certainly a lot more than a subjective comparison to how useful it is to ob or how marine has x and y technology to counter drifters in situation z. What part of that do you not understand?
<!--quoteo(post=2057933:date=Jan 8 2013, 09:46 AM:name=NikolaiLev)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NikolaiLev @ Jan 8 2013, 09:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057933"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I still haven't seen any reasoning as to <i>why</i> Drifters are overpowered. Making more suggestions on how to nerf them doesn't address why they should be nerfed.
They're a superior scouting solution to anything the marines have, but people have already mentioned why this is alright (aliens lack map mobility that marines have).
Marines only get that map mobility with buildings and upgrades that take forever and cost a fortune, Drifters can be built instantly for essentially peanuts.
<!--quoteo(post=2058192:date=Jan 8 2013, 08:45 PM:name=KilledByDeath)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KilledByDeath @ Jan 8 2013, 08:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058192"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines only get that map mobility with buildings and upgrades that take forever and cost a fortune, Drifters can be built instantly for essentially peanuts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And even cheap. All his mobility, speed, reacon range, invisibility, health worth at least 10 tres i think(of course, if khammander were superintensive job, it's still not that expensive if it costs more than 20. But it supposed to be easy job, so i wouldn't say that), but it only costs 3 tres. So that means, Drifter is fine, but the cost is not fine enough.
How about we move drifters to 2 hives, and move obs to 2 ccs. Perhaps while we're at it, lets have the armslab upgrades beyond the first ones also be tied to 2 and 3 ccs, and lets have shotguns on 2 ccs as well. Point being, both races are different. If you want it to be the same then fine, some people won't stop here until drifters are just removed. Simply increasing res is not good enough for them. Aliens on 1 hive have very little options so unless you have a better proposal that isn't only a nerf, its not going to happen.
<!--quoteo(post=2058109:date=Jan 8 2013, 05:10 PM:name=StriderNS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StriderNS2 @ Jan 8 2013, 05:10 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058109"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Easy way to solve this. Drifters remain the same as they are. Except when scanned. If they are not relocated, there will be a drifter icon in it's exact location on the minimap even after the scan expires. That way they're still useful and the Khaam has to stay on top of them instead of just throwing them out there in the first 5 minutes and gaining the upper-hand 3/4 of the time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like how nobody commented on my brilliant idear. I want a trophy. Acknowledge my success please. :S
I am still yet to be convinced drifters can be seriously OP'd anymore. The limit means you dont see drifter rushes on CC's anymore (kind of miss them) and compared to the obs they are very limited.
An observatory will cancel out the effectiveness of more of the alien tech tree than a drifter does the marines. Its passive ability far exceeds that of an alien khamms drifter. Its active abilities reveal so much more than the drifter also.
Just because a khamm puts drifters up...doesn't mean people are paying attention. Some use sound queues to work out where marines are pushing (remember you rattle when you run marine...oh and those power node effects are not just an audio queue for you they can serve as nice little give aways).
I think it makes more sense for obs not to work through walls than it does to place any further restrictions on aliens drifter numbers...but can you imagine the outcry!
I just wish more khamms used enzyme...starting to be a bit more common but its not as widespread as nano use.
<!--quoteo(post=2058260:date=Jan 9 2013, 04:07 AM:name=StriderNS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StriderNS2 @ Jan 9 2013, 04:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how nobody commented on my brilliant idear. I want a trophy. Acknowledge my success please. :S<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=2058260:date=Jan 9 2013, 02:07 AM:name=StriderNS2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (StriderNS2 @ Jan 9 2013, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058260"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like how nobody commented on my brilliant idear. I want a trophy. Acknowledge my success please. :S<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was too busy shaking my head at the rest of the thread, but it is an interesting idea. Granted, I'd rather go with bringing back collision on MACs and Drifters. I never knew that they didn't have collision with players. And to think I was going out of my way to put them in sneaky spots....
<!--quoteo(post=2058835:date=Jan 10 2013, 11:19 PM:name=Timarius)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Timarius @ Jan 10 2013, 11:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058835"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I was too busy shaking my head at the rest of the thread, but it is an interesting idea. Granted, I'd rather go with bringing back collision on MACs and Drifters. I never knew that they didn't have collision with players. And to think I was going out of my way to put them in sneaky spots....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sneaky spots would still be advisable as they have collision with projectiles..so try to keep out of the common lines of fire.
Cloak and collide is fine, but then they shouldn't give away marine information at the same time. You could set them to "observe mode" and then they are stationary and if touched visible.
At the same time you should be able to load them up with babblers, so when they get killed the marine has some kind of pain from it.
Comments
That way their cost makes a little more sense for how mobile and cloaked they can be. The Khamm will have to actively use the drifters. Less OP enough?
They're a superior scouting solution to anything the marines have, but people have already mentioned why this is alright (aliens lack map mobility that marines have).
Remember, asymmetry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because they provide infinite duration, nearly undetectable scouting information, which for a low cost you can easily place at every key choke point. Since you want me to spoon feed it to you:
NS2 is a strategy game in which ultimately the victor is the team that controls a large number of resources while denying the other team the same. Of course FPS skill plays a role in this as well. However, since marines are typically stronger/aggressive early on and have a slower movespeed, the aliens teams success is based strongly upon on information about where the marine team is going to attack. This means that gaining scouting information is key to alien victory and drifters provide unending cheap and durable scouting information. Of course, marines depend strongly on scouting information as well, but I would say to a lesser degree because of their ability to use phase gates to defend positions very quickly and the recycle function.
Get it now?
PS, when people just say, "asymmetry" for their argument about why something is fine it blows my mind -.-.
NS2 is a strategy game in which ultimately the victor is the team that controls a large number of resources while denying the other team the same. Of course FPS skill plays a role in this as well. However, since marines are typically stronger/aggressive early on and have a slower movespeed, the aliens teams success is based strongly upon on information about where the marine team is going to attack. This means that gaining scouting information is key to alien victory and drifters provide unending cheap and durable scouting information. Of course, marines depend strongly on scouting information as well, but I would say to a lesser degree because of their ability to use phase gates to defend positions very quickly and the recycle function.
Get it now?
PS, when people just say, "asymmetry" for their argument about why something is fine it blows my mind -.-.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said yourself that marines are less dependant on scouting, for a few reasons. This in turns means aliens are <i>more</i> dependent on it. Naturally, aliens need a superior scouting solution or else they'll be at a large strategic disadvantage.
My argument isn't that Drifters aren't powerful. It's that aliens need them to be. After all, counterplay does exist; Drifters can be removed via a scan, as we know, and common drifter spots can be probed with bullets (not to mention flamethrowers and grenade launchers).
However, considering the current alien winrate in both public play and competitive play, Drifters could be the area we can hit.
But it's important to keep in mind what this will affect; establishing the alien's dependence on scout units is crucial because if we don't, we're liable to take something down from excellent to useless, which would cause other problems.
If Drifters warrant a nerf, it should be slight; no doubt something that simply enables more marine counterplay (like bumping into them reveals them). Further, if Drifters are to be nerfed (which might be deserved), I feel as though aliens also deserve another option for scouting; one that fills another sort of niche in the realm of information gathering (perhaps a scan-like ability). What that option might be, I don't know. That ought to have its own thread.
What part of my post was hard to understand? The post I quoted cited asymmetry as the reason why you can't compare the utility between ob and drifters. I am saying that exactly due to this asymmetry, any argument for or against drifters being op is going to be opinions. How the hell do you think games are balanced anyways? Yea yea it's backed up by statistics and analysis, but when push comes to shoves, they are ALL opinions. Some people consider drifter's cost, invisibility, and durability as being overpowered. That's about as objective as it gets. Certainly a lot more than a subjective comparison to how useful it is to ob or how marine has x and y technology to counter drifters in situation z. What part of that do you not understand?
They're a superior scouting solution to anything the marines have, but people have already mentioned why this is alright (aliens lack map mobility that marines have).
Remember, asymmetry.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines only get that map mobility with buildings and upgrades that take forever and cost a fortune, Drifters can be built instantly for essentially peanuts.
And even cheap. All his mobility, speed, reacon range, invisibility, health worth at least 10 tres i think(of course, if khammander were superintensive job, it's still not that expensive if it costs more than 20. But it supposed to be easy job, so i wouldn't say that), but it only costs 3 tres.
So that means, Drifter is fine, but the cost is not fine enough.
I like how nobody commented on my brilliant idear. I want a trophy. Acknowledge my success please. :S
The limit means you dont see drifter rushes on CC's anymore (kind of miss them) and compared to the obs they are very limited.
An observatory will cancel out the effectiveness of more of the alien tech tree than a drifter does the marines.
Its passive ability far exceeds that of an alien khamms drifter.
Its active abilities reveal so much more than the drifter also.
Just because a khamm puts drifters up...doesn't mean people are paying attention.
Some use sound queues to work out where marines are pushing (remember you rattle when you run marine...oh and those power node effects are not just an audio queue for you they can serve as nice little give aways).
I think it makes more sense for obs not to work through walls than it does to place any further restrictions on aliens drifter numbers...but can you imagine the outcry!
I just wish more khamms used enzyme...starting to be a bit more common but its not as widespread as nano use.
I did :(
I was too busy shaking my head at the rest of the thread, but it is an interesting idea. Granted, I'd rather go with bringing back collision on MACs and Drifters. I never knew that they didn't have collision with players. And to think I was going out of my way to put them in sneaky spots....
Sneaky spots would still be advisable as they have collision with projectiles..so try to keep out of the common lines of fire.
You could set them to "observe mode" and then they are stationary and if touched visible.
At the same time you should be able to load them up with babblers, so when they get killed the marine has some kind of pain from it.