Marines love to jump!
Quadro2k
Join Date: 2013-01-10 Member: 178728Members
Join Date: 2013-01-10 Member: 178728Members
Now I don't want Marines to be easy targets by any means, but I'm frankly fed up with this.
I'm sure we are all aware spamming jump causes implications for a skulk. Having to dodge and weave or planning an ambush is hard enough but once you've achieved it, that doesn't always mean you'll snatch the kill. Of course you can never be guaranteed 100% success but this particular characteristic of the game makes it an excruciating experience for all skulks against happy jumpers.
Any half decent Marine getting caught up in close quarters will instinctively jump to avoid any damage in close quarters, which is absolutely fine, suggesting that their should be no jump is a ridiculous notion. However, most if not all relatively good players will repeatably jump either to simply buy time for their teammates to finish you off or they'll kill you themselves whilst in this ridiculous jumping frenzy.
Skulks have a very low aspect, which is fine of course. But when you have a marine jumping incredibly close to you, it's actually very disorientating which makes you miss your attacks too frequently. Jumping yourself doesn't make it any better, once in a jump your dedicated to it by which point the marine would have already relocated. Your only options are to pursue and hope for the best or run then regenerate and do the whole thing again!
I've seen quite often groups of skulks trying to kill off just a single Marine because hes jumping like he has no stamina issues not mentioning they're taking fire from his teammates.
Now, talking about Stamina. I've played games where stamina plays a roll in what your capable of doing and I'm sure we all have. Some games have tiny amounts of stamina that gives you the impression the soldier your playing must have spent all his life eating burgers. Now that's not what I would want in NS2. All I'm suggesting is to limit the number of jumps, which wont effect movement speed or sprint but would only decrease jump capacity for a number of seconds (whatever works) but what I wouldn't want is to jump over a couple of objects and not be able to make the third.
My suggestion is to limit jump capacity after the third jump for whatever number of seconds that feels right. It's excruciatingly frustrating for skulks. After all marines get jump packs to upset Aliens at later game. :)
I really hope a developer reads this.
I'm sure we are all aware spamming jump causes implications for a skulk. Having to dodge and weave or planning an ambush is hard enough but once you've achieved it, that doesn't always mean you'll snatch the kill. Of course you can never be guaranteed 100% success but this particular characteristic of the game makes it an excruciating experience for all skulks against happy jumpers.
Any half decent Marine getting caught up in close quarters will instinctively jump to avoid any damage in close quarters, which is absolutely fine, suggesting that their should be no jump is a ridiculous notion. However, most if not all relatively good players will repeatably jump either to simply buy time for their teammates to finish you off or they'll kill you themselves whilst in this ridiculous jumping frenzy.
Skulks have a very low aspect, which is fine of course. But when you have a marine jumping incredibly close to you, it's actually very disorientating which makes you miss your attacks too frequently. Jumping yourself doesn't make it any better, once in a jump your dedicated to it by which point the marine would have already relocated. Your only options are to pursue and hope for the best or run then regenerate and do the whole thing again!
I've seen quite often groups of skulks trying to kill off just a single Marine because hes jumping like he has no stamina issues not mentioning they're taking fire from his teammates.
Now, talking about Stamina. I've played games where stamina plays a roll in what your capable of doing and I'm sure we all have. Some games have tiny amounts of stamina that gives you the impression the soldier your playing must have spent all his life eating burgers. Now that's not what I would want in NS2. All I'm suggesting is to limit the number of jumps, which wont effect movement speed or sprint but would only decrease jump capacity for a number of seconds (whatever works) but what I wouldn't want is to jump over a couple of objects and not be able to make the third.
My suggestion is to limit jump capacity after the third jump for whatever number of seconds that feels right. It's excruciatingly frustrating for skulks. After all marines get jump packs to upset Aliens at later game. :)
I really hope a developer reads this.
Comments
Right, guys?
Jumping is tiring work,Im a wood pusher so understand this concept.
Until then...my spacebar is going to be used+abused.
Right, guys?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh yes, I was waiting for a reply like that. Well, there is one thing you've forgotten, a skulk is not a human. Unless your suggesting you run out of breath when you climb walls?
Oh yes, I was waiting for a reply like this. Well, there is one thing you've forgotten, a marine has nanite armour that assists in his jumping, allowing him to jump indefinitely as long as he gives his nanites about a second of regenerate their jumping ability.
Its a video game, there already is stamina in jumping.
This makes it very easy to jump on/around railing and other obstacles to avoid the slow down.
The only solution is to remove this allowance if the surface is higher...but that not going to win any friends.
This makes it very easy to jump on/around railing and other obstacles to avoid the slow down.
The only solution is to remove this allowance if the surface is higher...but that not going to win any friends.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They tried that during the beta, problem with that was jumping on things that are meant to be jumped on to get around, e.g. boxes in veil, or stairs in summit to ventilation. It made getting to those places a pain so they changed it to the way it is now.
Something like this.
I find it I never spam jump but just choose when to jump once, after the Skulk has made its move.
I think the "dueling" is in pretty good shape right now, apart from super-whacky-model animations (not nearly as bad as they used to be) and the occasional "where's the skulk? oh, he's INSIDE MY FRIGGIN' BODY, EATING ME"...
If you wanted to complain about something, you'd wanna complain about Skulk speed. For a four legged doggy Skulk is RIDICULOUSLY SLOW (have you seen how fast dogs sprint? Yeah, FAST) and a marine can almost beat a Skulk while sprinting. Now dats silly. (But it serves game balance, so herpidi derpidty deridpiydy.)
Marines will slow their movement if they <i>spam</i> jump. Last I checked a skulk can still bite a marine from the floor while the marine is jumping so this isn't really a valid complaint.
Yes I know...was pleased when this first adjustment came in but as it has been discussed over the journey this is still not ideal as it can still be exploited.
Heck even I can do it...and live longer than I should (even get the occasional kill).
I think the best solution was that jump had no slow down if jumped from crouch but your lateral movement was nerfed when crouched.
This would allow for the max height to be higher when crouched (so you can get into vents or onto a crate...but only when you take your time) and lower when standing normaly.
This would reduce the issues and also possible help stop skulk surfing (which does still happen though not as bad as some patches in the past.)
Mestaritonttu...that is indeed one of the issues complained about in the beta and a bit of a side issue...if that marines nows how to lighten his load he is negliglably slower...if he is willing to axe only he IS quicker.
Typically as marine I will only strafe to avoid a skulk if I think I can kill it before my clip is up, or do a single comprehensive jump. This is to keep my motion constant and predictable so I can still aim at the skulk. If a marine is jumping around wildly, he won't be able to aim at you for ######, so if he still kills you its probably because you thought "oh good, I'm in melee range now so I don't have to move anymore".
Typically as marine I will only strafe to avoid a skulk if I think I can kill it before my clip is up, or do a single comprehensive jump. This is to keep my motion constant and predictable so I can still aim at the skulk. If a marine is jumping around wildly, he won't be able to aim at you for ######, so if he still kills you its probably because you thought "oh good, I'm in melee range now so I don't have to move anymore".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem is the level of skill required to hit space bar is totally different to maintaining the marine in your FOV whilst landing bites and dodging being shot at.
THe solution I listed (sorry can remember who in the community came up with this idea) allows marines to keep mobility out of combat (when they dont mind crouching and losing lateral movement) but stops them exploiting map lay out to avoid the cool down on jump...which from my own practical applications can easily extend my life with no skill required (hence why I can do it).
THe solution I listed (sorry can remember who in the community came up with this idea) allows marines to keep mobility out of combat (when they dont mind crouching and losing lateral movement) but stops them exploiting map lay out to avoid the cool down on jump...which from my own practical applications can easily extend my life with no skill required (hence why I can do it).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So hold on, somebody makes a perfectly reasonable suggestion to nerf the blatantly OP Aliens and STOP IT STOP IT YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO KILL THIS GAMES FUN 65% WIN RATE MEANS NOTHING STATS ARE USELESS
But something that gives Marines a chance to like, not die AND WHOA HOLD UP THERE BUDDY
It was 1am in the morning so I went to bed. You know this isn't a competition right?
Thanks for the constructive criticism from at least some of you. I really hate when you get smart asses coming on forums and have nothing constructive to say apart from trying to make you look like an idiot. They're probably just kids and haven't quite learnt people skills yet. Then again this is the internet and anyone can get away with being obnoxious.
Anyway, I'm not sure how true it is regarding marines having nanite armour, I just thought it was armour but by all means correct me. If we were to go down the realism root then yes, nanite armour would allow this. However imagine what it would look like, it would look ridiculous! Imagine watching an alien film and seeing soldier (with nanite armour) prouncing about like that, someone would think they're retarded.
I'm only suggesting limiting jump capicity but as a direct result some are sarcastically saying "oh if marines can't jump (which is not what I was suggesting) then skulks can't climb walls or jump either". Now that wouldn't actually make any sense, because marines already have a range advantage and that is precisely why skulks need that capability to evade.
So they tried this in the beta? Obviously if it was such a stupid idea why were they trying this (sorry just letting my frustration out on a couple of sarcastic replies). I'm wondering, how did it actually work? Did it effect movement speed and sprint too? Because I can't imagine if done properly it shouldn't effect a marines capability of getting around obstacles. One game that did this very well was Counter Strike 1.6, I never had any problem jumping and getting around but as soon as you spammed jump it would punish you for it including your movement speed, which I'm not suggesting. I'm convinced perhaps the mechanic they must have used in beta wouldn't have been very good.
I think there might be an issue with marines flying a bit higher or further, off of skulks. I've seen marines jump a bit higher and further over attacking skulks and experienced it as a marine.
As a skulk, it's makes it a bit harder to kill jumping marines, because it's unexpected and immediate loss of sight.
In my opinion, it's still not a big deal. I loathe the idea of adding a stamina bar for jumping, or anything similar to the melee stamina bar in the L4D series.
This, being an asymmetric game, has an asymmetric dynamic in this respect.
Its true that mindlessly spamming jump as marine can make you harder to hit, but it is also certainly true that, in the hands of an experienced player, properly coordinated and timed jumps are far more effective. It is also true that, as you say, spamming space bar to become evasive is easier than the methods a skulk must employ to become evasive.
Holding down right click as a skulk and continuously biting can make it easier to hit a marine who is in melee range of you, but it is also certainly true that, in the hands of an experienced player, properly timing and aiming your bites is a far more effective approach. It is also true that spamming bite in order to hit someone near you is easier than having to consciously aim accurately at your target with a rifle.
Taadaa.
Balanced.
This needs no change.
Thanks for the constructive criticism from at least some of you. I really hate when you get smart asses coming on forums and have nothing constructive to say apart from trying to make you look like an idiot. They're probably just kids and haven't quite learnt people skills yet. Then again this is the internet and anyone can get away with being obnoxious.
Anyway, I'm not sure how true it is regarding marines having nanite armour, I just thought it was armour but by all means correct me. If we were to go down the realism root then yes, nanite armour would allow this. However imagine what it would look like, it would look ridiculous! Imagine watching an alien film and seeing soldier (with nanite armour) prouncing about like that, someone would think they're retarded.
I'm only suggesting limiting jump capicity but as a direct result some are sarcastically saying "oh if marines can't jump (which is not what I was suggesting) then skulks can't climb walls or jump either". Now that wouldn't actually make any sense, because marines already have a range advantage and that is precisely why skulks need that capability to evade.
So they tried this in the beta? Obviously if it was such a stupid idea why were they trying this (sorry just letting my frustration out on a couple of sarcastic replies). I'm wondering, how did it actually work? Did it effect movement speed and sprint too? Because I can't imagine if done properly it shouldn't effect a marines capability of getting around obstacles. One game that did this very well was Counter Strike 1.6, I never had any problem jumping and getting around but as soon as you spammed jump it would punish you for it including your movement speed, which I'm not suggesting. I'm convinced perhaps the mechanic they must have used in beta wouldn't have been very good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well for most of the beta we had no slow down, and marines where like rabbits on crack....it was only as it drew to an end that the complaints drew some changes.
As Davil says we tried it in the beta, I dont recall it being that way for long(so it would not have been more than a patch or two(sure someone can correect me with build #'s if wrong)) and then they brought in the model we have know which is slow down if you jump down or on the same level.
After the most recent changes there where still a lot of request for a system similar to the one I outlined where by overall jump height is reduced in addition to the slow down when jumping up and lateral mobility reduction when crouched.
This way those vents and other parts of the map are still accessible but you sacrifice combat mobility, so all camps should be happy (marines as they can still get to all those places...and aliens because marines no longer jump like rabbits on strong coffee (the slow down has mostly eliminated the crack rabbits).
Ciro its collision boxes I believe...the bottom of the marines curved (imagine a big panadol capsule) couple with the fact that when they jump they go high enough that a skulk slides under slightly...in one fun patch when they broke push back it resulted in marines being able to surf ontop of attacking skulks pretty much not getting bitten as the skulks slide under their feet and missed.
Whilst the push back issue was fixed the core mechanic is still there...just not as comically over the top.
So by reducing the maximum height of jumping you could ensure the marines feet still clip the skulk and stop the marine going past, the crouch jump (similar to hl) would allow access to higher places but with a lateral movement restriction (so you can jump higher but you cant move as much to left, right, forward or back). So you could still do the crate over rail on summit from sub heading to vent by timing your crouches and allowing you to keep the height gains you get.
|strofix| to play a good skulk and ambush, traverse a room whilst dodging a marine shooting at you takes time and practice....you must first learn to do this before you can get within striking distance to land blows. Once you do you must then track a fast moving target who can easily jump out of you FOV.
So this is much more complicated than learning to jump around, which was why the nerf first came about. The issue with being able to reach higher spaces was seen to be solved by allowing no slow down when jumping up.
This still allows for clever marines to use the environment to avoid slow down for 2-3 consecutive jumps...which allows for fast rapid direction changes. That marines have better directional speed changes than aliens makes the battle even harder for the attacking aliens.
Whoa hold up there... not jumping and running indefinitely is unrealistic? Trolling much?
So many aliens just hold down the attack button, 3 well-timed bites (or two plus parasite for armour 0 marines) will do the job perfectly, so make sure they count. I'm forever running up walls and bouncing around as a skulk in combat, make sure you bite at the right time and the marines will go down quicker, and in the process they find it harder to hit you. Skulks running around on the floor without using walls/ceilings/railings/jump are the easiest things in the world to kill for any half-decent marine.
Roo