Umbra and spores identity crisis
Fonk
Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179892Members
Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179892Members
I'm new to forums, and I didn't see anything like this. But if this is a repost, I apologize.
Umbra is a defensive ability, yet it is shot.
Spores is an offensive ability, yet it is sprayed.
This seems a little counter-intuitive to me. I don't think this is a game breaking issue, and neither are hard to use effectively. I just feel these two abilities seem a little backwards.
Is there any specific intention with this? Would spores really be op if it could be shot?
Umbra is a defensive ability, yet it is shot.
Spores is an offensive ability, yet it is sprayed.
This seems a little counter-intuitive to me. I don't think this is a game breaking issue, and neither are hard to use effectively. I just feel these two abilities seem a little backwards.
Is there any specific intention with this? Would spores really be op if it could be shot?
Comments
Hence, it was decided to make the spores a trail, so the lerk is forced to go into the fray as well. The same thing goes for the spikes, they used to be pinpoint accurate, which made them alien snipers. This also collides with the design intent for aliens, where they are more melee based, whereas the marines are the ranged race.
Thus, it'll remain this way for good reasons. :)
best thing this game ever had lol
Hence, it was decided to make the spores a trail, so the lerk is forced to go into the fray as well. The same thing goes for the spikes, they used to be pinpoint accurate, which made them alien snipers. This also collides with the design intent for aliens, where they are more melee based, whereas the marines are the ranged race.
Thus, it'll remain this way for good reasons. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's a little disingenuous to point to that era of testing on this subject because the lerk was different in so many other ways and performance was absolutely shocking. In any case, no other form of projectile spores were tried, though many were suggested.
I prefer that you would not refer to my replies as being disingenuous, it's unnecessarily disrespectful.
To answer the point you make; as I explained the aliens were designed to be a melee race. A class that does quite a large amount of damage from afar, out of reach of even marine weapons (since they have no sniper-like weapon; LMG's can't <b>kill</b> a lerk at that range easily), just doesn't fit in there.
Apart from that, even though it was a 'different time' and performance was worse etc. - to many people it's still not a lot of fun to spout AoE spore clouds from a distance, without ever getting close to a fight.
In my personal opinion, it would even be fine to have both spores <b>and</b> umbra be delivered through a trail, but that's a whole different story.
Hence, it was decided to make the spores a trail, so the lerk is forced to go into the fray as well. The same thing goes for the spikes, they used to be pinpoint accurate, which made them alien snipers. This also collides with the design intent for aliens, where they are more melee based, whereas the marines are the ranged race.
Thus, it'll remain this way for good reasons. :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems to be forgotten that a life form has more abilities than those which are explicitly prescribed to it. In NS1 I played as Lerk near enough every game. Mostly competitive, but the occasional pub stomp every so often too.
You are right, NS1 style Lerk was not necessarily at the forefront of large confrontations, but it was a key skill to be able to skim around the outskirts of a skirmish and harass the marines. What it lacked in combat was made up in scouting ability and support. The primary role as a competitive lerk player in NS1 was to scout hives, RTs, harass groups of marines as well as taking out lone marine recappers. Personally, I find that a very engaging and critical role.
You can argue that the NS2 style lerk can do the same, but the NS2 lerk is a relatively slow and cumbersome beast compared to its NS1 counterpart. The lack of a ranged support ability (spikes are not even worth mentioning), forcing it into melee with any enemy means that even if the lerk does scout out a group of marines theres nothing they can do to harass without putting itself at great risk. But now that we have drifters and the alien commander, the scouting ability of the lerk is rarely even required which puts it into the lackluster state it currently is in. (similar to the gorge, the role it was originally intended to fill has been reduced significantly)
NS1 lerk allowed you more freedom with regards to movement, which increased the skill ceiling for both the lerks themselves but also the marines trying to take them down. Combined with umbra, the 2 hive lerk could easily take on a couple of marines and really upped the harassment and support capabilities. This was great progression for the Lerk, and showed that the devs knew how to create a great support lifeform and keep it balanced and effective through the course of the game. This knowledge appears to now be lacking.
Personally, I find the lerk at present to be one of the greatest sources of frustration and is most definitely not an engaging way to play the game.
A defensive ability that requires the target being defended to make himself (less) vulnerable in order to attack.
From an evolutionary sense it may seem counter intuitive. Makes perfect sense from a gameplay point of view though.
When was the last time you played exactly?
;) touché. It has been a while, I still think my points are valid however.
Ye probably, its just worth noting that spikes are really powerful now. Also as for scouting, why scout in NS2 when 50% of the hive rooms on the map are within 10 seconds of travel from your starting hive?
The old Lerk was a creature of opportunity, preying on lone and isolated marines. In NS2 everything is so close together than stuff like that never happens. Disappointing for sure, but I think they have done a good job at updating the Lerk for its new role.
Like you mentioned, there are more abilities.. and while i too feel the harrassing/support/scout aspects of the lerk have unfortunately been toned down slightly, ranged spores isn't responsible for it. Speed of the lerk, spores contending for research with BB, Blink, and leap, and the viability of umbra are all factors. (and drifters cannot contend with the scouting or response abilities of the lerk)
On a brainstorming note, though, I think there are many ways that a happy middle ground can achieved on that topic. i.e. a medium distance spray like the flamethrower. Would give better feedback in first person too. :shrug:
Edit: and this is where i shamelessly plug a vote for the return of the 13 speed lerk.
Wow, are you real?
Ranged spores are superior for reasons that has been discussed ad nauseam by the limited few that understand what warrants a continued experience while retaining it's enjoyment and depth. Those people aren't really around anymore.
in the original it was way too easy to find a hiding spot with an appropriate angle & shoot spores a very good distance across the map from safety & provide area denial.
instead of tweaking to fix, uwe changed the underlying philosophy for that AOE ability & they stuck with it.
there were many good suggestions in the beta that didnt get tried, simply because they had to be coded & there is no way to try or revisit every idea.
maybe in a future big patch :)
Hahaha, so now gameplay testing has become a process whereby they continue to test different variations of the mechanic you want until they find the least terrible one and use it?
They tried projectile spores.
It didn't work.
Time to move on.
balance testing ranged spores and tweaking numbers around it sounds feasible. tweaking numbers to reverse the logic of close-range spores and ranged umbra sounds less than feasible!
It isn't about balance, its about gameplay.
You could theoretically balance a lifeform that sits in a corner and deals damage to every marine on the map periodically. Providing you tweak the damage dealt enough, it could sufficiently satisfy the balance requirements of the game, but it would never satisfy the gameplay requirements.
You could theoretically balance a lifeform that sits in a corner and deals damage to every marine on the map periodically. Providing you tweak the damage dealt enough, it could sufficiently satisfy the balance requirements of the game, but it would never satisfy the gameplay requirements.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes, you are agreeing with me
balance testing ranged spores and tweaking numbers around it sounds feasible. tweaking numbers to reverse the logic of close-range spores and ranged umbra sounds less than feasible!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I think the ranged spores got vito'd too early in the process when hit reg and actual performance was really bad (1st time I saw a FT I got about 1-2 FPS and simply died with a screen off white flame with n idea which way I was facing as I quickly died).
So it was a lot harder to hit the lerk as hit reg was so poor and marines struggled to aim (I think everyone would agree its become easier to shoot/track as performance has improved).
Since then things have improved and the lerk has been less and less viable in a game with marines that can aim or a team that cant with SG's.
Umbra makes so much more sense being bombed or trailed, ranged spores fit the lerks weak frame (paper thin is not far from it) and required play style.
If a lerk sitting near a shift shutting down a hallway worries you....then what happens you you have a camo'd onos sitting in that hall?
This is no different to a marine sitting in the vent in veil...if the lerk wants to spend his time sitting there...he is not in the battle so your up 1 and should find taking and holding ground easier.
I never cared for Lerk much in NS1. However, the Lerk in NS2 is one of my favorite lifeforms; Spikes are hard to use but extremely effective, especially coupled with the ability to fire accurately while strafe-flying. The Spore change <i>makes sense</i> and introduces effective counterplay to an effective AoE damage solution. It increases the skill cap for the lifeform and in my opinion, it's far more enjoyable. The Lerk's power is not to be questioned, especially if you take a glance at competitive matches where Lerks have huge leverage.
Umbra isn't really a defensive ability, it's a support ability. It's optimal when used to protect your team, as well as yourself when you make use of Spores lategame. Given this, making it ranged makes sense. Although, making it similar to Spores means you have to make a choice of which cloud you want to deploy in a flying run. This would warrant a buff to both, probably, but would be an interesting choice nonetheless.
Frankly you don't need spores or anything else to make the lerk fly; staying static is basically a death sentence as you can get instant-lag killed. Even new players learn that pretty fast after getting pistoled to death a couple of times.
Projectile spores with reasonable radius require line of sight to be effective, so staying static is no option. In my experience ranged spores works more or less like spikes, but with a much lower skill floor as the aiming is not as important.
Remember also that melee spores was introduced when the lerk didn't had bite, but some kind of sniper spike.
*cough*
Not only do trail spores allow you to deny areas mid-combat more effectively (albeit at a greater risk to yourself, which is justified, since area denial is so annoying), but they allow you to use the fact that most maps have long corridors to your advantage. Spore the surrounding area first and THEN spore the marines; whichever direction they move, they'll be running into spores. Furthermore, while you can still spore up an armory, you can no longer do so with impunity--which is perfectly justified. Also consider exo balance for a moment, and the role of the welder. A single good lerk can, right now, shut down an entire team of non-flamer welders. You want to be able to do this without having to put yourself at any risk as well? Lastly, if you opt to not use adrenaline, you become less of a crop duster and more of a divebomber, which is fine, but your spores will remain useful even though they'll be relegated to a more crowd control-centric role (harder to get kills with them, but just as easy to prevent marines from entering areas).
Umbra, on the other hand, is a skill far better suited to supporting your team rather than yourself. While an AoE umbra is nice and all, to use it effectively would mean that you'd have to be near your teammates at all times, and your teammates happen to move quite differently than you do. A bigger problem with umbra is that it comes late game, but you can protect node rushes so effectively with it that it remains useful, and the fact that it is a projectile makes this much easier.
Thank you HE and others for answering my question. I just wanted to know how these two attacks and their functions evolved.