Has anyone seen the Penny Arcade episode about depth vs complexity: To me it seems, UWE is adding even more complexity to the already very complex ruleset of ns2 while the game is still quite shallow. Games always end up in zergfests, marine-zerg or alien-zerg doesnt matter. Dying is not much of an issue, since you almost instarespawn, except if you are getting egglocked.
New content is great. But the point is they are not giving trying to balance this game enough attention. The thing about new content is most likely it will need to balance again with the new content. But still.... its been imbalanced since October.
Build 238 is out today, I hope. Maybe... just maybe they will address the balance problem. I don't expect a be-all-end-all balanced game with this patch. I just want some good progress toward the goal of balance. Build 236/237 gave us almost nothing (the cyst health change didn't do anything)
To everybody saying this game is balanced, you need to do a bit of homework before you post. At the very least track your own games. I did. Aliens won 71% of the games I've played. 82 games since build 236. Check out NS2Stats.org as well. Until you do something like get some real stats, you shouldn't post "the game is balanced". I say, prove it.
CommunistWithAGun makes a point that a game like this will never achieve 50/50 balance and I agree. But 70/30? That needs to be fixed. And if nothing is done in terms of balance changes in build 238, except some not-so-nice posts from me.
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game balance at the moment is generally just a performance problem. 9/10 people have comps that only give 30 fps at best, and the 10th has 60/70/100 fps so he really racks up the kills, problem is, whatever team has that said person ends up with him having 50/0 k/d, and it generally revolves around that one person to win the game. this is in pubs, though.
game balance at the moment is generally just a performance problem. 9/10 people have comps that only give 30 fps at best, and the 10th has 60/70/100 fps so he really racks up the kills, problem is, whatever team has that said person ends up with him having 50/0 k/d, and it generally revolves around that one person to win the game. this is in pubs, though.
My experience with pubs is that there's 2-5 really good players in the game, and they all stack the same team.
That's not something that can be blamed on UWE though.
We are going in circles here. The fps issue may be relevant in pubs, I doubt it applies to the competetive scene that has an even higher alien winrate... Watch the video, it talks about giving the player meaningful choices. Sadly, there are first order strategies out there which are always the best choice, therefore taking away the depth.
We are going in circles here. The fps issue may be relevant in pubs, I doubt it applies to the competetive scene that has an even higher alien winrate... Watch the video, it talks about giving the player meaningful choices. Sadly, there are first order strategies out there which are always the best choice, therefore taking away the depth.
Yeah, I went over those a bit earlier in the thread.
Has anyone seen the Penny Arcade episode about depth vs complexity: To me it seems, UWE is adding even more complexity to the already very complex ruleset of ns2 while the game is still quite shallow. Games always end up in zergfests, marine-zerg or alien-zerg doesnt matter. Dying is not much of an issue, since you almost instarespawn, except if you are getting egglocked.
But why balance the game when all the content isn't in it yet?
Because without a balanced foundation, piling more crap on top of it isn't going to make it any more balanced. Adding "kewl" new items into the game isn't fixing anything. *cough*infestation spikes*cough*
They need to go back to the core gameplay and balance it from there. And improve performance, but that's nothing new.
But why balance the game when all the content isn't in it yet?
Because without a balanced foundation, piling more crap on top of it isn't going to make it any more balanced. Adding "kewl" new items into the game isn't fixing anything. *cough*infestation spikes*cough*
They need to go back to the core gameplay and balance it from there. And improve performance, but that's nothing new.
but if the devs intended to add more content, whether they actually add it or not i dunno at least they say it, then balance are gonna distorted once the new contents are there. or except if you would like to add trivial things which does nothing but trolling, why bother? then all work would be wasted.
except some fundamental flaws which has almost no connection with other parts of the game, like cysts infestation and power nodes, most should not be changed. or something just too broken like fade's survivability and shotguns.
for the others i agree. and performance should be #1 issue with proper testing. not that like you broke someones game every patch just because you do not have the resources to test it on different kind of machines after making a million or a wide invitation of play testing.
But why balance the game when all the content isn't in it yet?
Because without a balanced foundation, piling more crap on top of it isn't going to make it any more balanced. Adding "kewl" new items into the game isn't fixing anything. *cough*infestation spikes*cough*
They need to go back to the core gameplay and balance it from there. And improve performance, but that's nothing new.
but if the devs intended to add more content, whether they actually add it or not i dunno at least they say it, then balance are gonna distorted once the new contents are there. or except if you would like to add trivial things which does nothing but trolling, why bother? then all work would be wasted.
except some fundamental flaws which has almost no connection with other parts of the game, like cysts infestation and power nodes, most should not be changed. or something just too broken like fade's survivability and shotguns.
for the others i agree. and performance should be #1 issue with proper testing. not that like you broke someones game every patch just because you do not have the resources to test it on different kind of machines after making a million or a wide invitation of play testing.
Because the game was sold (keyword: sold for cash) and purchased by people expecting a balanced game (or somewhat rather close).
It's also far easier to add something to a game that is nearly balanced, balancing the new item to fit the game, than throw a whole bunch of shit together on top of other shit and try to organize and balance an even bigger pile of, well, you get the point.
But why balance the game when all the content isn't in it yet?
Because without a balanced foundation, piling more crap on top of it isn't going to make it any more balanced. Adding "kewl" new items into the game isn't fixing anything. *cough*infestation spikes*cough*
They need to go back to the core gameplay and balance it from there. And improve performance, but that's nothing new.
I don't think a game like NS2 balances in that way.
In most boring, more symmetric games, when you add a new feature to one team, you add something almost identical to the other team. Then you just tweak each thing until they are roughly equal for both teams.
However in NS2, when you add something new, it doesn't matter how perfectly balanced everything else in the game is, it is going to cause ripple effects throughout the game. This is because there is no direct counter balance to tweak. If you add something to aliens, and something to marines, chances are they are completely unrelated, and cannot work to counter each other. This means everything else in the game has to change.
Sure, a nice solid basis for balance would be nice, but honestly it won't make anything any easier once things change.
NS2 is incredibly unbalanced and that makes for incredibly boring gameplay. They need to go back and think about the abstract nature of what Natural Selection 2 is. For me, what it should be is: a hybrid first person shooter / real time strategy that pits two asymetrical teams against each other for domination of the map. What I currently see it as: A thing that has people running around doing whatever hoping upon all hope that they get lucky and find some team mates who know how to work as a team and on top of that, hope that the enemy team has the same luck so they can have a good game... This has still not happened for me.
Sometimes I get on a team that works well together, sometimes I go up against a team that works really well together. Always this results in total annihilation of the other team and an overall boring experience. The game doesn't encourage teamwork, it only punishes the lack of teamwork. Games that only punish failure yet don't reward success are boring, and to me, that's what natural selection 2 currently is. I still like the damn game for some reason though.
Game doesn't need to be balanced to be enjoyable. I own quite a few abysmally balanced games that are a lot of fun to play.
And working on new content is a different job to balancing. You don't need 3d modellers to balance things. Or coders even a lot of the time, balance can often be just changing numbers in a spreadsheet. A designer can do that, in fact a designer is generally who you need to look at balance issues and figure out the best way to solve them.
So there's no reason why the rest of the team shouldn't be working on new content. The level designers and 3d modellers can't do anything about aliens being OP after all.
They could always create content for a different game altogether.
Well yes but that assumes UWE is planning to immediately move onto a new project rather than try to get more out of NS2. Not every developer uses the 'ship game, ignore game, move onto new game' business model. Some do quite well out of making long-supported games that sell steadily for quite a few years. Look at Killing Floor.
And of course, if NS2 is so terrible, making a new game would presumably be terrible also. Makes more sense if NS2 is awful to try and fix it, to figure out what is wrong before making a new game, yes?
That's not what I meant you bum. I meant they focus on fixing ns2's current issues without adding new content. While allowing the non game design content creators to continue to be useful developing a new game.
As I said though, why do they need to develop a new game to be useful?
There is nothing wrong with the long term support approach to games, games that are long supported can continue to sell for a long time. Egosoft do it with their X series, killing floor is probably the best example of it. It works quite well for smaller studios.
Not every game is 'release a game, release version two a year later with some new models and a bigger number after the title'
We all dont have the insight in to UWE's internal schedule. Afaik they consist of about 10 core employers and they outsourced some of the modeling. They should know best if they have enough time to get the content patch done, all I wanted to do here is raise an eyebrow whether more toys wont make the game even more of a mess. You cant go wrong with new map but I'm a bit suspicious about the railguns - I heard they wont be like the qukae railgun (slow firing sniper gun) so I'm not sure what to expect. Are the weapons really the problem why exos are unpopular? Imho the miniguns own, the problem is that they are slow, cant see their feet and cant be beaconed so they end up as easy pickings for skulks.
Except railguns i just see alien buffs which is what I'm a bit worried about.
Warning anecdotal evidence:
In my experience(~100 hours played since mid-december), the game is not balanced.
Playing as a marine commander is boring, at best.
You have one strategy.
Get Phase, and Rush JPs, GG.
The aliens seem to be stuck on "shift first", which admittedly is pretty great(Aggressive spawn points).
Admittedly, you can go crag or shade first, but shift is so far above either of those two that it's not even worth it most of the time(map/server size depending).
I'm not even talking about celerity, which is pretty awful(except at the early game).
I think you've all just been trolled. HARD. This guy either 1) has never actually played the game, 2) has been playing with his eyes closed, or 3) is borderline crazy. Look at his anecdotal "evidence".
Marine Commander is CONSIDERABLY more interesting than Alien Commander, as you have to micro-manage as opposed to just wait for TRes and drop stuff occasionally. Alien Commander is only on a par of franticness to the Marine Commander in the first 2 minutes, if you play Gorge Comm. (2nd Harvester t 100% + Carapace on the field within 60 seconds, anyone? )
You have one strategy.
Get Phase, and Rush JPs, GG.
Erm - I don't remember the last time I used a JP rush as my strategy. There are plenty of other effective ways to win as Marines.: Fast Weapon Upgrades with a constant Hive offensive? Forward ARC Factory? Fast MACs making almost immortal Marines until Bile Bomb is up? Fast Armor Upgrades with Single-Exos? Fast GLs before Alien Comm. spends TRes. on Whips? Learn to mix things up, and you'll have a much more enjoyable experience.
The aliens seem to be stuck on "shift first", which admittedly is pretty great(Aggressive spawn points).
Admittedly, you can go crag or shade first, but shift is so far above either of those two that it's not even worth it most of the time(map/server size depending).
I'm not even talking about celerity, which is pretty awful(except at the early game).
This point here makes me question your seriousness. Every competitive player I know agrees that Shift is actually the WORST Hive to go first.
1. Forward Shift + Eggs are too expensive (15 TRes for enough eggs for a full team - 6 players - forward respawn?) in the early game and hamper fast expansion. Learn just not to die so much.
2. A half-decent player with Carapace staying alive longer is more beneficial than someone with Celerity getting back across the map quick.
3. Adrenaline is useless to Skulks without Leap
4. Shade Hive + Camo is very useful if you're mixing up tactics and want the early rush.
5. Shade Hive + Silence is also very useful for halting Marine expansion.
6. Once advanced lifeforms are out on the field, and then if you (unfortunately) lose your 2nd Hive - You don't want to be left with Shift upgrades.
The fact that your anecdotal evidence is completely wrong in EVERY. SINGLE. RESPECT. makes this complete thread a joke. 100+ hours in-game and you still think Shift is the best first upgrade? Sorry to say it, but you need to find another game quick, as 100+ hours is a lot of time to have wasted on something you really don't understand.
There will be always those screaming for balance/bugfixes versus those screaming for more content in a game. In the meanwhile why dont we try to enjoy it all? Personally im so looking forward to the new map. 100% balance will never be achieved. Luckily UWE has stats to tell them what is goin on behind the curtain. And the numbers tell us, that is is max. around 10% off. I find that to be phenomenal. So now they can slowly adjust everything, while the content guys work on more content.
Dont see your problem at all.
Not that I'm complaining about getting new guns/structures/maps, but I am curious behind the logic of implementing new things when the game is "broken".
Well, depending on who you talk to that is.
If the forums are to be believed, the marines lose 9999/10000 games, mines are OP, Exos suck, ARCs are imba, and whips are too cheap.
The forums are usually the vocal minority, and I've read a lot of your personal complaints about balance and it's always in favor of nerfing marines. It's hard to take you serious with a stance like that.
Considering you replied to my one suggestion thread regarding NS2, which was arguably a nerf for aliens, your statement is a fallacy at best.
I agree that forums are usually the vocal minority, but the forums are usually also the people that actually care.
I'd also dare say that not adding content is a great way to scorn your community and playerbase. Not everyone's boxers get a dark moist spot in the front reading "Skulk armor adjusted to 15". People cream their jeans when they see NEW LIFEFORM.
Also, balance is a never ending task that won't ever be quite right. Balance can get damn close but nothing is ever perfect. It's better to adapt to the things you feel are overpowered and master the things you feel are weak. Naturally Select'd
I agree.
I just wanted to spur some discussion that wasn't about how badly the game runs.
Geez. You made a complete 180. You started this thread off with "HOW DARE THEY MAKE CONTENT IF THE GAME ISN'T 110% BALANCED" and you've gone to "I just wanted to start a productive conversation about the beauty of the sky and the moon and NS2 together"
The amount of totally flawed logic in some of the threads that I have been reading on these forums is astounding. I am 100% for every man has his vote, but at some point we all have to take a step back and wonder 'Is this forum full of 12 year old's?'. It seems like a constant struggle to find some truly inspiring and deep conversations here. But anyway, I didn't mean to derail.
Back on topic, let me break down the logic that you portray in your first post.
You argue that they should first balance the game and then add new content. Ok, I understand where you are coming from but please, what you are saying is that they need to drop everything and balance the game and then after all that balancing they can only then add new content that will imbalance the game again?!?! Thus, flawed logic.
Two balance points:
Practical balance
This is the balance element of players, skill, teams and hardware. A very basic example of this is the auto team balance feature on servers, to make sure that people with high hardware doesn't have a distinct advantage over people with minimum req hardware(for example particle effects. Back in the day you could switch cs to opengl and see right through smoke grenade's smoke clouds)
Technical balance
This balances all the in game aspects of ns. Stuff like rifle does 10dmg with 50 rounds shooting at 0.32 attack speed. Now balance that against the hp of every alien and structure for example:
A Skulk with 75 hp needs to be able to survive against the rifle, so you give the skulk speed and wall walking/jumping to out maneuver the rifle. All of this is technical. (How much dmg something can do against something else and how it can defend against that thing.)
As with almost every major competitive game you need the sweet spot between a constant balancing act mixed with the addition of new content every once in a while to keep the game fresh. Unfortunately this means that you will basically have to re-balance some if not most aspects after introducing new content.
So as you see, in a perfect world where you want complete balance 100% of the time, it can only occur once every aspect of the game as been added and no new additions will ever be added again. Once you reach this point, you can balance everything against everything else and come as close to perfect as you could possible hope for. But then there is the argument about, what if I play against a good player? Well then practical balance goes right out of the window and all you are left with is technical balance(the numbers behind the scenes). So it will never ever be possible to balance both practical and technical aspects of the game unless you can match exact skilled players against one another in pubs.
Warning anecdotal evidence:
In my experience(~100 hours played since mid-december), the game is not balanced.
Playing as a marine commander is boring, at best.
You have one strategy.
Get Phase, and Rush JPs, GG.
The aliens seem to be stuck on "shift first", which admittedly is pretty great(Aggressive spawn points).
Admittedly, you can go crag or shade first, but shift is so far above either of those two that it's not even worth it most of the time(map/server size depending).
I'm not even talking about celerity, which is pretty awful(except at the early game).
I think you've all just been trolled. HARD. This guy either 1) has never actually played the game, 2) has been playing with his eyes closed, or 3) is borderline crazy. Look at his anecdotal "evidence".
What this says to me is that instead of debating something, you want to make ad hominem attacks.
Marine Commander is CONSIDERABLY more interesting than Alien Commander, as you have to micro-manage as opposed to just wait for TRes and drop stuff occasionally. Alien Commander is only on a par of franticness to the Marine Commander in the first 2 minutes, if you play Gorge Comm. (2nd Harvester t 100% + Carapace on the field within 60 seconds, anyone? )
You have one strategy.
Get Phase, and Rush JPs, GG.
Erm - I don't remember the last time I used a JP rush as my strategy. There are plenty of other effective ways to win as Marines.: Fast Weapon Upgrades with a constant Hive offensive? Forward ARC Factory? Fast MACs making almost immortal Marines until Bile Bomb is up? Fast Armor Upgrades with Single-Exos? Fast GLs before Alien Comm. spends TRes. on Whips? Learn to mix things up, and you'll have a much more enjoyable experience.
In a pub game, It's the only strategy that is reliable, besides "Get a bunch of exos".
The aliens seem to be stuck on "shift first", which admittedly is pretty great(Aggressive spawn points).
Admittedly, you can go crag or shade first, but shift is so far above either of those two that it's not even worth it most of the time(map/server size depending).
I'm not even talking about celerity, which is pretty awful(except at the early game).
This point here makes me question your seriousness. Every competitive player I know agrees that Shift is actually the WORST Hive to go first.
The vast majority of my play time has been pub servers.
I've done some competitive stuff, but we're still figuring out "roles".
1. Forward Shift + Eggs are too expensive (15 TRes for enough eggs for a full team - 6 players - forward respawn?) in the early game and hamper fast expansion. Learn just not to die so much.
2. A half-decent player with Carapace staying alive longer is more beneficial than someone with Celerity getting back across the map quick.
3. Adrenaline is useless to Skulks without Leap
4. Shade Hive + Camo is very useful if you're mixing up tactics and want the early rush.
5. Shade Hive + Silence is also very useful for halting Marine expansion.
6. Once advanced lifeforms are out on the field, and then if you (unfortunately) lose your 2nd Hive - You don't want to be left with Shift upgrades.
I agree with all that, but on pub servers if you do anything but go celerity first you get ejected.
Go try it some time.
Maybe I need to find better servers, but most of the "good" servers are full of team stacking funkillers.
The fact that your anecdotal evidence is completely wrong in EVERY. SINGLE. RESPECT. makes this complete thread a joke. 100+ hours in-game and you still think Shift is the best first upgrade? Sorry to say it, but you need to find another game quick, as 100+ hours is a lot of time to have wasted on something you really don't understand.
My anecdotal evidence is based on my experience on public servers, with the average player.
I usually research mines as soon as the Armoury goes up, and the vast majority of the time I have to harp on the marines to get them to pub any mines down.
Usually there's one or two goons(On an 8(7 if you don't include the com) man team) who abjectly refuse to spend their res on anything besides an exo.
Ie: They're completely useless.
As tough as it might be in the short term, balance needs to be focused on in a micro way. That is to say, questions like "do shotguns feel balanced against fades at X point in time" or "how fair does the skulk vs jetpack match-up feel on 2hives" are more pertinent at this stage of NS2's life than looking at 60/40 figures.
UWE need to identify the most important microcosms of balance that affect how fair and reasonable various match-ups are and, importantly, how they feel. Things can be balanced overall but you might still be feeling like something is OP. If you approach it this way in the early stages, you have a good foundation to tweak things later on. Neglect this and you risk creating a mishmash of unfair situations that frustrate players and make them feel powerless.
I'm not saying overall balance isn't important, just that it's hard to work backwards from it to fix underlying issues.
Comments
Build 238 is out today, I hope. Maybe... just maybe they will address the balance problem. I don't expect a be-all-end-all balanced game with this patch. I just want some good progress toward the goal of balance. Build 236/237 gave us almost nothing (the cyst health change didn't do anything)
To everybody saying this game is balanced, you need to do a bit of homework before you post. At the very least track your own games. I did. Aliens won 71% of the games I've played. 82 games since build 236. Check out NS2Stats.org as well. Until you do something like get some real stats, you shouldn't post "the game is balanced". I say, prove it.
CommunistWithAGun makes a point that a game like this will never achieve 50/50 balance and I agree. But 70/30? That needs to be fixed. And if nothing is done in terms of balance changes in build 238, except some not-so-nice posts from me.
That's not something that can be blamed on UWE though.
With marines it's always phase first.
Always.
Extra Credits is pseudo-intellectual garbage.
Because without a balanced foundation, piling more crap on top of it isn't going to make it any more balanced. Adding "kewl" new items into the game isn't fixing anything. *cough*infestation spikes*cough*
They need to go back to the core gameplay and balance it from there. And improve performance, but that's nothing new.
but if the devs intended to add more content, whether they actually add it or not i dunno at least they say it, then balance are gonna distorted once the new contents are there. or except if you would like to add trivial things which does nothing but trolling, why bother? then all work would be wasted.
except some fundamental flaws which has almost no connection with other parts of the game, like cysts infestation and power nodes, most should not be changed. or something just too broken like fade's survivability and shotguns.
for the others i agree. and performance should be #1 issue with proper testing. not that like you broke someones game every patch just because you do not have the resources to test it on different kind of machines after making a million or a wide invitation of play testing.
Because the game was sold (keyword: sold for cash) and purchased by people expecting a balanced game (or somewhat rather close).
It's also far easier to add something to a game that is nearly balanced, balancing the new item to fit the game, than throw a whole bunch of shit together on top of other shit and try to organize and balance an even bigger pile of, well, you get the point.
I don't think a game like NS2 balances in that way.
In most boring, more symmetric games, when you add a new feature to one team, you add something almost identical to the other team. Then you just tweak each thing until they are roughly equal for both teams.
However in NS2, when you add something new, it doesn't matter how perfectly balanced everything else in the game is, it is going to cause ripple effects throughout the game. This is because there is no direct counter balance to tweak. If you add something to aliens, and something to marines, chances are they are completely unrelated, and cannot work to counter each other. This means everything else in the game has to change.
Sure, a nice solid basis for balance would be nice, but honestly it won't make anything any easier once things change.
Sometimes I get on a team that works well together, sometimes I go up against a team that works really well together. Always this results in total annihilation of the other team and an overall boring experience. The game doesn't encourage teamwork, it only punishes the lack of teamwork. Games that only punish failure yet don't reward success are boring, and to me, that's what natural selection 2 currently is. I still like the damn game for some reason though.
And working on new content is a different job to balancing. You don't need 3d modellers to balance things. Or coders even a lot of the time, balance can often be just changing numbers in a spreadsheet. A designer can do that, in fact a designer is generally who you need to look at balance issues and figure out the best way to solve them.
So there's no reason why the rest of the team shouldn't be working on new content. The level designers and 3d modellers can't do anything about aliens being OP after all.
Well yes but that assumes UWE is planning to immediately move onto a new project rather than try to get more out of NS2. Not every developer uses the 'ship game, ignore game, move onto new game' business model. Some do quite well out of making long-supported games that sell steadily for quite a few years. Look at Killing Floor.
And of course, if NS2 is so terrible, making a new game would presumably be terrible also. Makes more sense if NS2 is awful to try and fix it, to figure out what is wrong before making a new game, yes?
There is nothing wrong with the long term support approach to games, games that are long supported can continue to sell for a long time. Egosoft do it with their X series, killing floor is probably the best example of it. It works quite well for smaller studios.
Not every game is 'release a game, release version two a year later with some new models and a bigger number after the title'
Except railguns i just see alien buffs which is what I'm a bit worried about.
I think you've all just been trolled. HARD. This guy either 1) has never actually played the game, 2) has been playing with his eyes closed, or 3) is borderline crazy. Look at his anecdotal "evidence".
Marine Commander is CONSIDERABLY more interesting than Alien Commander, as you have to micro-manage as opposed to just wait for TRes and drop stuff occasionally. Alien Commander is only on a par of franticness to the Marine Commander in the first 2 minutes, if you play Gorge Comm. (2nd Harvester t 100% + Carapace on the field within 60 seconds, anyone?
Erm - I don't remember the last time I used a JP rush as my strategy. There are plenty of other effective ways to win as Marines.: Fast Weapon Upgrades with a constant Hive offensive? Forward ARC Factory? Fast MACs making almost immortal Marines until Bile Bomb is up? Fast Armor Upgrades with Single-Exos? Fast GLs before Alien Comm. spends TRes. on Whips? Learn to mix things up, and you'll have a much more enjoyable experience.
This point here makes me question your seriousness. Every competitive player I know agrees that Shift is actually the WORST Hive to go first.
1. Forward Shift + Eggs are too expensive (15 TRes for enough eggs for a full team - 6 players - forward respawn?) in the early game and hamper fast expansion. Learn just not to die so much.
2. A half-decent player with Carapace staying alive longer is more beneficial than someone with Celerity getting back across the map quick.
3. Adrenaline is useless to Skulks without Leap
4. Shade Hive + Camo is very useful if you're mixing up tactics and want the early rush.
5. Shade Hive + Silence is also very useful for halting Marine expansion.
6. Once advanced lifeforms are out on the field, and then if you (unfortunately) lose your 2nd Hive - You don't want to be left with Shift upgrades.
The fact that your anecdotal evidence is completely wrong in EVERY. SINGLE. RESPECT. makes this complete thread a joke. 100+ hours in-game and you still think Shift is the best first upgrade? Sorry to say it, but you need to find another game quick, as 100+ hours is a lot of time to have wasted on something you really don't understand.
Dont see your problem at all.
They will fix it all!
Geez. You made a complete 180. You started this thread off with "HOW DARE THEY MAKE CONTENT IF THE GAME ISN'T 110% BALANCED" and you've gone to "I just wanted to start a productive conversation about the beauty of the sky and the moon and NS2 together"
The amount of totally flawed logic in some of the threads that I have been reading on these forums is astounding. I am 100% for every man has his vote, but at some point we all have to take a step back and wonder 'Is this forum full of 12 year old's?'. It seems like a constant struggle to find some truly inspiring and deep conversations here. But anyway, I didn't mean to derail.
Back on topic, let me break down the logic that you portray in your first post.
You argue that they should first balance the game and then add new content. Ok, I understand where you are coming from but please, what you are saying is that they need to drop everything and balance the game and then after all that balancing they can only then add new content that will imbalance the game again?!?! Thus, flawed logic.
Two balance points:
Practical balance
This is the balance element of players, skill, teams and hardware. A very basic example of this is the auto team balance feature on servers, to make sure that people with high hardware doesn't have a distinct advantage over people with minimum req hardware(for example particle effects. Back in the day you could switch cs to opengl and see right through smoke grenade's smoke clouds)
Technical balance
This balances all the in game aspects of ns. Stuff like rifle does 10dmg with 50 rounds shooting at 0.32 attack speed. Now balance that against the hp of every alien and structure for example:
A Skulk with 75 hp needs to be able to survive against the rifle, so you give the skulk speed and wall walking/jumping to out maneuver the rifle. All of this is technical. (How much dmg something can do against something else and how it can defend against that thing.)
As with almost every major competitive game you need the sweet spot between a constant balancing act mixed with the addition of new content every once in a while to keep the game fresh. Unfortunately this means that you will basically have to re-balance some if not most aspects after introducing new content.
So as you see, in a perfect world where you want complete balance 100% of the time, it can only occur once every aspect of the game as been added and no new additions will ever be added again. Once you reach this point, you can balance everything against everything else and come as close to perfect as you could possible hope for. But then there is the argument about, what if I play against a good player? Well then practical balance goes right out of the window and all you are left with is technical balance(the numbers behind the scenes). So it will never ever be possible to balance both practical and technical aspects of the game unless you can match exact skilled players against one another in pubs.
Peace
UWE need to identify the most important microcosms of balance that affect how fair and reasonable various match-ups are and, importantly, how they feel. Things can be balanced overall but you might still be feeling like something is OP. If you approach it this way in the early stages, you have a good foundation to tweak things later on. Neglect this and you risk creating a mishmash of unfair situations that frustrate players and make them feel powerless.
I'm not saying overall balance isn't important, just that it's hard to work backwards from it to fix underlying issues.