NEW 17 pellets, 11 dmg per @ w0
--Weapons 0: 187
--Weapons 1: 205.7
--Weapons 2: 224.4
--Weapons 3: 243.1
Carapace Fade stats: 250hp/100ap - 450 effective HP against normal damage (shotgun). Before: it took more than 2 full w3 SG shots as 2 100% full SG hits did 442 dmg. New SG does 486.2 damage in 2 shots, more than enough. It's more than plausible to partially miss some of your shots and still 2 shot a cara fade now.
Cara fades could not be fully killed by two shotgun shots with the previous shotgun.
Cara fade = 250 hp + 2x 100 armor = 450 effective hp versus normal damage. Shotgun dealt (17x10)x1.3 = 221 damage per shot at weapons 3. That's slightly over 2 shots to kill.
New shotgun is obviously able to 2 shot with a base weapon 3 damage of 243.1.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
a game like this is always in beta, lofung, until the team starts a new project, can you please shut up and get over it?
statistics aside, if a rock scratched you in the middle of those 2 shots gorgeous, you would most definately die.
As if shotguns weren't already powerful enough they get a predictability boost (this I like) and a damage boost (this I don't like.) I've yet to play since the new update but it sounds like any 20 res shotgun marine worth their salt will easily be able to gun down a 50 res Fade. I was already super cautious of shotgunners before as a Fade, now I'll have to be downright paranoid of them. Needless to say I'm not a big fan of this. Hopefully the story will be different when I go to play.
Edit:
I just played and I am definitely getting hit a lot more by shotguns and taking more damage. Even at a good range they seem to be connecting more pellets with me. On a side note the game also seems to lag more. I'm not sure if it was just me or what but it did seem choppier. CPU lag really needs to be addressed, a lot more than RAM efficiency at least.
Buffing shotgun damage wasn't something I considered warranted, but I suppose the 'wider' spread will prevent long-range shotgun sniping before the patch.
So this also means lerks can be 1 shotted (even with full armour) as if I recall they only survived being 1 shotted by about 2 armour points.
Awesome...*shakes head in disbelief*..so now fades are in the boat lerks used to be and lerks are now like skulks (totally useless if marines can aim).
NEW 17 pellets, 11 dmg per @ w0
--Weapons 0: 187
--Weapons 1: 205.7
--Weapons 2: 224.4
--Weapons 3: 243.1
Carapace Fade stats: 250hp/100ap - 450 effective HP against normal damage (shotgun). Before: it took more than 2 full w3 SG shots as 2 100% full SG hits did 442 dmg. New SG does 486.2 damage in 2 shots, more than enough. It's more than plausible to partially miss some of your shots and still 2 shot a cara fade now.
You forgot to mention the spread width was increased, a large reason for why this was done.
The balance mod had the same spread but with ~167 max damage iirc, (170 = old) and many reported that it felt like you couldn't do enough damage, regardless of your timing. Timing matters more now, increasing the skill required to use the shotgun - due to a wider spread you now must wait for the target to get closer than the previous implementation. But now you wont have those frustrating "sniper shotgun" scenarios that occurred from the asymmetrical pattern + a narrow spread.
That being said, i haven't tried the 187 version yet, but it seems like its in the right direction, given the increase in spread. I was thinking 180 would work maybe when just theorycrafting.
Edit: those concerned over a one shot should really take into account the pattern and spread changes. To get 100% pellets requires a lot less distance and luck now, requiring more skill, while simultaneously lessening the "fade just died across warehouse from a shotgun" scenario. On Paper numbers are all well and good for theory. *runs off to try 187dmg version*
due to a wider spread you now must wait for the target to get closer than the previous implementation.
Just stop and think for a moment about what you just said and why it is completely moronic. "Wait for the target to get closer." As if the majority of alien life forms (the ones that kill marines specifically) don't require getting right up against their targets. Unless the hit detection in this game is still shoddy, 'wider spread' at point blank distances means absolutely nothing. I bet it's even safe to say that it will still be quite possible to snipe even with the wider spread because there are more pellets.
>To get 100% pellets requires a lot less distance and luck now, requiring more skill.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Nice behavior.
On topic: That's the point? That's exactly how the skill requirement is increased: Timing.
Timing requiring you to shoot at a much riskier distance, i.e. getting 100% pellets to land is often being traded for one attack from the enemy, and at the least, a high risk of it.
I'm having a hard time understanding exactly where you disagree or what your issue is. You seem to be reaching for one.
Also, more pellets doesn't mean you can snipe more?? (what??) It means added reliability, something that is needed if you increase the spread. You did read above how per pellet damage was reduced? ahh hell.. nevermind.
I will disagree that the total number of damage is negated by the increased spread. 100% damage shots do occur and I think it's important to note this when looking at life-form survivability. If TTK at range is the issue then it is the spread cone that should be addressed, increasing the total damage per shot is not the right way to reduce TTK at range. The symmetrical spread allows this to be much more easily balanced. Because you also increase the occurrence of insta-gibs particularly for lerk/fade and the damage done to higher life forms like Onos where every pellet hitting is a more common occurrence.
This is especially true when looking at scenarios with multiple shotgunners, not just one (because as an alien it's not possible to judge the timing of the shots like you can in 1v1).
tl;dr damage increase was not needed and has more negative side affects than positive ones
and for anyone interested, here's an (approximate) comparison of the 238 SG to the old SG: http://i.imgur.com/YZKibRs.jpg (new left, old right)
Nice behavior.
On topic: That's the point? That's exactly how the skill requirement is increased: Timing.
Timing requiring you to shoot at a much riskier distance, i.e. getting 100% pellets to land is often being traded for one attack from the enemy, and at the least, a high risk of it.
I'm having a hard time understanding exactly where you disagree or what your issue is. You seem to be reaching for one.
Also, more pellets doesn't mean you can snipe more?? (what??) It means added reliability, something that is needed if you increase the spread. You did read above how per pellet damage was reduced? ahh hell.. nevermind.
2- 100% sg shots deals more damage than what a fade has which means you can miss a few pellets and still kill the fade. Timing means nothing when the fade is on top of you anyway. Trading blows? Really? You only need two shots to kill a fade vs 3 shots with the old one, meaning you can only perform better (2 shots vs 3) or come out equally vs the old shotgun. You end up taking one less hit in your favor.
>Also, more pellets doesn't mean you can snipe more?? (what??) It means added reliability
Dingdingding. You're not really increasing the spread when you're making it much more reliable.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I didn't say it was negated? I said spread should be considered and factored in as it does have an impact.
100% damage point blank shots definitely occur, but now they come way more of a risk to the shooter.
Its higher risk and higher reward, at a higher skill requirement.
You forgot to mention the spread width was increased, a large reason for why this was done.
The balance mod had the same spread but with ~167 max damage iirc, (170 = old) and many reported that it felt like you couldn't do enough damage, regardless of your timing.
implied to me that you thought changing the one thing would balance the other. I apologize if this was misunderstood.
Regardless I guess we will get the chance to see how things work out in the coming week(s). Should be interesting.
I didn't say it was negated? I said spread should be considered and factored in as it does have an impact.
100% damage point blank shots definitely occur, but now they come way more of a risk to the shooter.
Its higher risk and higher reward, at a higher skill requirement.
So how does only requiring 3 less than of the 100% of the bullets landing to two shot a fade with the new shotgun inherit more risk than requiring 3 shots to kill a fade? Especially when the fade requires being on top of you anyway.
Edit: Oh, right, because the fade has to be on top of you, right?
So the fade is gonna get a swing in. But then you're gonna kill the fade 33.3% fast with the new shotgun. You're right, killing faster has way more of an inherit risk. My mistake.
the way you phrased this:
implied to me that you thought changing the one thing would balance the other.
Regardless I guess we will get the chance to see how things work out in the coming week(s). Should be interesting.
Oh i see where that happened, nope. Many, many factors to consider, imo. Each one weighing differently. Many ways to skin a cat here, too..
Yea I kinda thought it would've had more time in the balance mod given the change in values, comparatively, but we'll see how it goes now.
Wasn't this patch supposed to bump fade health to 300?
That was actually supposed to be last patch. The changes were pulled however, I believe due to not wanting to inflame the 60/40 ratio (even though it's needed in competitive).
Comments
Yes.
OLD: 10 pellets, 17 dmg per @ w0
--Weapons 0: 170
--Weapons 1: 187
--Weapons 2: 204
--Weapons 3: 221
NEW 17 pellets, 11 dmg per @ w0
--Weapons 0: 187
--Weapons 1: 205.7
--Weapons 2: 224.4
--Weapons 3: 243.1
Carapace Fade stats: 250hp/100ap - 450 effective HP against normal damage (shotgun). Before: it took more than 2 full w3 SG shots as 2 100% full SG hits did 442 dmg. New SG does 486.2 damage in 2 shots, more than enough. It's more than plausible to partially miss some of your shots and still 2 shot a cara fade now.
Cara fades could not be fully killed by two shotgun shots with the previous shotgun.
Cara fade = 250 hp + 2x 100 armor = 450 effective hp versus normal damage. Shotgun dealt (17x10)x1.3 = 221 damage per shot at weapons 3. That's slightly over 2 shots to kill.
New shotgun is obviously able to 2 shot with a base weapon 3 damage of 243.1.
statistics aside, if a rock scratched you in the middle of those 2 shots gorgeous, you would most definately die.
Edit:
I just played and I am definitely getting hit a lot more by shotguns and taking more damage. Even at a good range they seem to be connecting more pellets with me. On a side note the game also seems to lag more. I'm not sure if it was just me or what but it did seem choppier. CPU lag really needs to be addressed, a lot more than RAM efficiency at least.
Awesome...*shakes head in disbelief*..so now fades are in the boat lerks used to be and lerks are now like skulks (totally useless if marines can aim).
(hakenspit beat me to it)
The balance mod had the same spread but with ~167 max damage iirc, (170 = old) and many reported that it felt like you couldn't do enough damage, regardless of your timing. Timing matters more now, increasing the skill required to use the shotgun - due to a wider spread you now must wait for the target to get closer than the previous implementation. But now you wont have those frustrating "sniper shotgun" scenarios that occurred from the asymmetrical pattern + a narrow spread.
That being said, i haven't tried the 187 version yet, but it seems like its in the right direction, given the increase in spread. I was thinking 180 would work maybe when just theorycrafting.
Edit: those concerned over a one shot should really take into account the pattern and spread changes. To get 100% pellets requires a lot less distance and luck now, requiring more skill, while simultaneously lessening the "fade just died across warehouse from a shotgun" scenario. On Paper numbers are all well and good for theory. *runs off to try 187dmg version*
Just stop and think for a moment about what you just said and why it is completely moronic. "Wait for the target to get closer." As if the majority of alien life forms (the ones that kill marines specifically) don't require getting right up against their targets. Unless the hit detection in this game is still shoddy, 'wider spread' at point blank distances means absolutely nothing. I bet it's even safe to say that it will still be quite possible to snipe even with the wider spread because there are more pellets.
>To get 100% pellets requires a lot less distance and luck now, requiring more skill.
Haha.
On topic: That's the point? That's exactly how the skill requirement is increased: Timing.
Timing requiring you to shoot at a much riskier distance, i.e. getting 100% pellets to land is often being traded for one attack from the enemy, and at the least, a high risk of it.
I'm having a hard time understanding exactly where you disagree or what your issue is. You seem to be reaching for one.
Also, more pellets doesn't mean you can snipe more?? (what??) It means added reliability, something that is needed if you increase the spread. You did read above how per pellet damage was reduced? ahh hell.. nevermind.
This is especially true when looking at scenarios with multiple shotgunners, not just one (because as an alien it's not possible to judge the timing of the shots like you can in 1v1).
tl;dr damage increase was not needed and has more negative side affects than positive ones
and for anyone interested, here's an (approximate) comparison of the 238 SG to the old SG: http://i.imgur.com/YZKibRs.jpg (new left, old right)
2- 100% sg shots deals more damage than what a fade has which means you can miss a few pellets and still kill the fade. Timing means nothing when the fade is on top of you anyway. Trading blows? Really? You only need two shots to kill a fade vs 3 shots with the old one, meaning you can only perform better (2 shots vs 3) or come out equally vs the old shotgun. You end up taking one less hit in your favor.
>Also, more pellets doesn't mean you can snipe more?? (what??) It means added reliability
Dingdingding. You're not really increasing the spread when you're making it much more reliable.
100% damage point blank shots definitely occur, but now they come way more of a risk to the shooter.
Its higher risk and higher reward, at a higher skill requirement.
implied to me that you thought changing the one thing would balance the other. I apologize if this was misunderstood.
Regardless I guess we will get the chance to see how things work out in the coming week(s). Should be interesting.
With acid rockets and metabolism.
So how does only requiring 3 less than of the 100% of the bullets landing to two shot a fade with the new shotgun inherit more risk than requiring 3 shots to kill a fade? Especially when the fade requires being on top of you anyway.
Edit: Oh, right, because the fade has to be on top of you, right?
So the fade is gonna get a swing in. But then you're gonna kill the fade 33.3% fast with the new shotgun. You're right, killing faster has way more of an inherit risk. My mistake.
Get real.
Because it's not.
It still requires one more shot.
Therefore, not a two shot.
3 =! 2
Oh i see where that happened, nope. Many, many factors to consider, imo. Each one weighing differently. Many ways to skin a cat here, too..
Yea I kinda thought it would've had more time in the balance mod given the change in values, comparatively, but we'll see how it goes now.
That was actually supposed to be last patch. The changes were pulled however, I believe due to not wanting to inflame the 60/40 ratio (even though it's needed in competitive).
and I'm assuming almost same pattern (+2 pellets) but wider spread?