What you can expect from the Gorgeous Patch

1246

Comments

  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited February 2013
    Zek wrote: »
    Now why don't you tell me why aliens SHOULD NOT get gorge tunnels?
    I've covered it pretty much in my posts above, but to put it succinctly:

    -Aliens are the faster race. If they are to receive a means to travel even faster then they can't have it both ways. Faster speed was justified since aliens had no means of teleportation. Now they get to have their cake and eat it too.

    -Maps are smaller than in NS1, and with faster speed the aliens shouldn't need phase gates. One of the justifications for smaller maps was since the aliens had no teleportation and the marines did. Now they get both.

    -Tunnels allow Onos to enter. It's bad enough the EXO can't use phase gates given their slow speed, but Onos will be allowed to use alien phase gates? So if aliens put a tunnel between the two of their hives they can cover both with the same Onos - which would not have been possible before. Imagine if the EXO could use phase gates, how much of a game changer *that* would be. Yet it's OK for the Onos?

    -Tunnels negate risk. No longer will aliens risk death crossing the map when they have a tunnel. This makes map control meaningless for marines.

    -It's just another asymmetric aspect of NS that has fallen by the wayside. One after another, asymmetry is slowly vanishing. We've seen huge symmetric shifts with the Khamm being added, aliens getting top-down view, single player chamber drops, hydras (sentries), aliens got t-res, marines got p-res, and they are also talking about giving aliens a marine style spawn queue. Now they get phase gates?

    There is no such thing as a NEEDED new feature.
    With respect Zek, any new feature needs to be justified within the scope of the game. Just because something seems "cool" doesn't means it is needed or justified. I'm sure people would love to see Lerks flying an Onos around. It would be cool (and hilarious) but would it be needed or justifiable?
    - Opens up more tactical possibilities for the alien team, thus adding variety to the game
    I'm cool with that - my point is that they didn't have 'add variety' by reducing asymmetry and buffing aliens yet again.
    - Reduces dependency on Shift upgrades/eggs to give aliens decent map control
    If that's a real issue, then untie the shift chamber from the hive. Allow it to be dropped without a per-requisite.

    In the end, this patch is coming, so it's not like anything will change. I just don't think this was a good idea given the current state of alien dominance at present, and the fact that asymmetry seems to be slowly fading away.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Savant wrote: »
    Now they get to have their cake and eat it too.

    I would think that the objective for any game designer is to maximize the number of people that can both have their cake, and eat it. I call that having fun.

    The rest of your points sound like balance gripes. As has been stated, the game can achieve balance with as much or as little content as you like. Content does not affect balance, balance affects balance, and any content can be balanced.

  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Savant wrote: »
    Now they get to have their cake and eat it too.
    I would think that the objective for any game designer is to maximize the number of people that can both have their cake, and eat it. I call that having fun.
    So I guess it's cool then if we allow EXOs to use marine phase gates and be able to be beaconed right? I mean if fun is the only thing that matters, I know that would be a LOT more fun than it is now. Sound good?

  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    edited February 2013
    Savant wrote: »
    |strofix| wrote: »
    Savant wrote: »
    Now they get to have their cake and eat it too.
    I would think that the objective for any game designer is to maximize the number of people that can both have their cake, and eat it. I call that having fun.
    So I guess it's cool then if we allow EXOs to use marine phase gates and be able to be beaconed right? I mean if fun is the only thing that matters, I know that would be a LOT more fun than it is now. Sound good?

    Sure, so long as it doesn't overly upset a player who just spent 75 res on an Onos only to have 4 dual minigun mofos suddenly appear around him.

    But that is more a balance concern anyway. Exos being able to phase or be distressed isn't content. Phasing and distressing already existed. The exo was introduces as content, and it was deemed necessary to remove its ability to phase or distress in order to balance it in such a way that maximized "fun". For example, another route they could have taken would be to reduce its damage to something just slightly above a shotgun. That way, it suddenly appearing all over the map wouldn't be such a big deal. However, everyone probably would have been quite upset with such a crappy 75 res tech unit.

    Maximizing enjoyment is the important part. Its not only important for the person using the object to have fun, but also the people he is using the object against.

    Being able to suddenly bust open a gorge tunnel in marine base probably would have upset half the players on the server. So they balanced it by restricting it to infestation only. Maybe people will still be upset about that, so maybe they will give it a really long build time or something. That's balancing. And it can occur indefinitely. When you add content, you really do just add something that is "cool". Its as simple as that.

    As I said though, I do agree that the constant travel time of the tunnel overlaps with the theme of the phasegate. I would prefer that the travel time be related to the distance between entrances.

  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
  • FuleFule Join Date: 2009-06-04 Member: 67683Members
    I hope that performance will be better after this patch, but I have a feeling that it will be only worse.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2013
    I love how the patch will likely come out on the 28th, only ~2 days before the invitational cup starts. Meaning that every team that doesn't have a playtester, leaking them information on all changed mechanics and added shit will have lots of last minute fun.

    Dunno if its really a problem, but it sure isn't elegant.

    PS: @playtesters feel free to leak me infos if you want :P
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    In case someone wants to compare the speed units:

    If I remember correctly NS1 skulk has 290 base speed and it goes up to some 530 in bhop. Your high level bhopper probably hangs somewhere a bit above 500 by average. My mediocre bhop probably averages somewhere 480 or so ( I haven't checked in actual gameplay, the cl_showspeed command only works with sv_cheats 1).

    Most NS1 rounds had at least lvl 2 celerity picked up after 1:30 or so. The 3rd level was added soonish too. That means a 20% or 30% bonus to both base speed and bhop cap (The 1.7 or 1.8 ratio between bhop and base speed remains the same).

    Someone with more NS2 knowledge can probably sort out the similar numbers for it if needed.

  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    This sounds interesting. Can you put them on any area wall, floor, or cieling?

    It would be funny to drop one in front of a PG and have the other side going to the bottom of crevice or into the lava falls.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    fanatic wrote: »
    I don't understand how you have the gall to keep posting after this exchange.
    Well now, nothing like a nice ad hominem attack to let me know when someone knows they have been beat. When you can't debate the merits of an issue, you fall back to personal attacks? How mature. Your remarks are actually quite comical given my involvement in the development of NS1. Since I have no intent to lower myself to your level, I won't respond in kind. That's not my way.

    What I will say is that your responses show a complete lack of logical awareness of what I am discussing. You continually try to evade the issue, all the while spouting mindless statistics that have absolutely no relevance to the point being made. By the way, I ran Veil and came up with entirely different numbers, but that's not the point.

    It was never the point.

    Replying further to your posts is pointless. I see no reason to waste any more time with you.
  • current1yoldcurrent1yold Join Date: 2012-09-10 Member: 158911Members
    edited February 2013
    So now that all that shit is over with.

    WHOS LOOKING FORWARD TO GORGEOUS!?

    We're less then a week away now from playing it in pubs ... <:-P
  • statikgstatikg Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
    Today only,

    Fana v the forum all-star tagteam Savant/Strofix

    Are they trolls? Or are they verbose idiots.

    PLACE YOUR BETS.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    How about some tunnel details to ponder... I pulled the following out of the game files:
    kGorgeTunnelResearchCost = 20
    kGorgeTunnelResearchTime = 60
    kGorgeTunnelCost = 10
    kGorgeTunnelBuildTime = 15
    kTunnelEntranceMaturationTime = 120
    kTunnelEntranceHealth = 1400	kTunnelEntranceArmor = 0	kTunnelEntrancePointValue = 15
    kMatureTunnelEntranceHealth = 1600	kMatureTunnelEntranceArmor = 100
    kGorgeArmorTunnelDamagePerSecond = 5
    // entrance and exit
    kNumGorgeTunnels = 2
    
    They seem cheap and quick to build. I haven't found any references to prerequisites so far.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    edited February 2013
    Savant wrote: »
    How about some tunnel details to ponder... I pulled the following out of the game files:
    kGorgeTunnelResearchCost = 20
    kGorgeTunnelResearchTime = 60
    kGorgeTunnelCost = 10
    kGorgeTunnelBuildTime = 15
    kTunnelEntranceMaturationTime = 120
    kTunnelEntranceHealth = 1400	kTunnelEntranceArmor = 0	kTunnelEntrancePointValue = 15
    kMatureTunnelEntranceHealth = 1600	kMatureTunnelEntranceArmor = 100
    kGorgeArmorTunnelDamagePerSecond = 5
    // entrance and exit
    kNumGorgeTunnels = 2
    
    They seem cheap and quick to build. I haven't found any references to prerequisites so far.

    I remember them saying that it's going to be a 2-Hives ability. Not sure if you have to research Bile Bomb first or if it can be an alternative choice up front.

    And cheap is relative. It's 20 pres for the Gorge to get a working tunnel. That sets you back for some Hydras and higher lifeforms, so it's something for dedicated Gorges only.
  • MiniH0wieMiniH0wie Join Date: 2007-11-25 Member: 63013Members
    edited February 2013
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Savant wrote: »
    How about some tunnel details to ponder... I pulled the following out of the game files:
    kGorgeTunnelResearchCost = 20
    kGorgeTunnelResearchTime = 60
    kGorgeTunnelCost = 10
    kGorgeTunnelBuildTime = 15
    kTunnelEntranceMaturationTime = 120
    kTunnelEntranceHealth = 1400	kTunnelEntranceArmor = 0	kTunnelEntrancePointValue = 15
    kMatureTunnelEntranceHealth = 1600	kMatureTunnelEntranceArmor = 100
    kGorgeArmorTunnelDamagePerSecond = 5
    // entrance and exit
    kNumGorgeTunnels = 2
    
    They seem cheap and quick to build. I haven't found any references to prerequisites so far.

    I remember them saying that it's going to be a 2-Hives ability. Not sure if you have to research Bile Bomb first or if it can be an alternative choice up front.

    And cheap is relative. It's 20 pres for the Gorge to get a working tunnel. That sets you back for some Hydras and higher lifeforms, so it's something for dedicated Gorges only.

    Actually it's 20 res to research the tunnel ability but only 10 res for the actual gorge to create it.

    Edit: Actually Lumina brought up a good point below. Not sure if it's 10 res for the entire tunnel or 10 res for each end making it 20.

    20 res would be expensive for a gorge.
  • luminalumina Join Date: 2012-06-15 Member: 153300Members
    Is it 10 for the entire tunnel or 10 for each end? It says the gorge gets two of them, one for the entrance and one for the exit.
  • douchebagatrondouchebagatron Custom member title Join Date: 2003-12-20 Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    from the wording it looks like each entrance is going to have its own health, which would lead me to believe that it's considered 2 separate structures. also since the limit is 2, and the comment is // entrance and exit then i'd imagine that it's 10 per opening, so 20 in total.

    It seems like the goal of the gorgeous update is to basically make permagorges viable. currently they just have nothing to really spend res on. with this, which seems like a pretty powerful thing if used correctly, plus babblers, you could wind up with a pretty beefy and worthwhile gorge.
  • killer monkeykiller monkey Join Date: 2010-02-26 Member: 70743Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I want to rub this update all over my body
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    6john wrote: »
    from the wording it looks like each entrance is going to have its own health, which would lead me to believe that it's considered 2 separate structures. also since the limit is 2, and the comment is // entrance and exit then i'd imagine that it's 10 per opening, so 20 in total.

    It seems like the goal of the gorgeous update is to basically make permagorges viable. currently they just have nothing to really spend res on. with this, which seems like a pretty powerful thing if used correctly, plus babblers, you could wind up with a pretty beefy and worthwhile gorge.

    Plus there have been some other things to consider, also in relation to Savant's "1 Onos for 2 Hives" argument:

    -We don't know yet if the tunnels are going to be an early, mid or late game technology. The current tooltip for Bile Bomb in the game already says that it unlocks "WEBTECH", so we can probably assume that the Gorge Webs are going to be researchable after researching Bile Bomb. The question is if those Webs will be a 2-Hive ability (which would seem likely, given that they would be pretty useless in the late game) and if the Gorge Tunnels will be researchable after the Webs (or simultaneously) or only as 3-Hive ability and thus more like a game ender.
    Depending on which research and Hive dependencies exist, the Tres cost for acquiring Gorge Tunnels may differ a lot.

    -We don't know yet how easy it will be to get in an out of the tunnel, especially for an Onos. Maybe there is some delay that will make it an easy target for marines on the other side of the entrance. Also, depending on how easy it will be to destroy the tunnel ends (depending on HP and the size of the destroyable part), it can be bloody risky for an Onos to use the tunnel at all to get from one Hive to another, since the tunnel could collapse any time.

    -The tunnel is also bound to the Gorge that created it. So if you destroy one entrance, THAT PARTICULAR GORGE has to walk around the map to that location again to build the entrance if it wants to get it working again, as opposed to Phase Gates that are dropped by the commander from Tres and can be build by any marine that happens to be at the destination location.

    -As opposed to Phase Gates, you can only connect two areas with each other, has travel time and is a double-edged sword, so the mobility advantage aliens would get with this would stay a relatively little and costly one compared to marines. If they want more than one location connected, they need another Gorge that creates another tunnel right next to it.

    -The more Pres is invested into tunnels, the less Pres is invested into Hydras and higher lifeforms.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Savant wrote: »
    fanatic wrote: »
    I don't understand how you have the gall to keep posting after this exchange.
    Well now, nothing like a nice ad hominem attack to let me know when someone knows they have been beat. When you can't debate the merits of an issue, you fall back to personal attacks? How mature. Your remarks are actually quite comical given my involvement in the development of NS1. Since I have no intent to lower myself to your level, I won't respond in kind. That's not my way.

    What I will say is that your responses show a complete lack of logical awareness of what I am discussing. You continually try to evade the issue, all the while spouting mindless statistics that have absolutely no relevance to the point being made. By the way, I ran Veil and came up with entirely different numbers, but that's not the point.

    It was never the point.

    Replying further to your posts is pointless. I see no reason to waste any more time with you.

    Arguing with Fana on the facts of NS1. Amusing.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Savant wrote: »
    my involvement in the development of NS1
    bs-man-karl.jpg
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    I for one eagerly await the new double-claw Rock 'em Sock 'em Exobot.
  • GorgenapperGorgenapper Join Date: 2012-09-05 Member: 157916Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    +hook

    If anybody remembers from the 187 and BAD combat servers, I was a spider gorge.
  • MaLuSMaLuS Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182769Members
    only one thing that I expect for this update... a release date :P everything i've found out so far seems very interesting and basically i wanna try it out, then if there is more that i want i suppose i'll post it up ;)
  • killer monkeykiller monkey Join Date: 2010-02-26 Member: 70743Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Looks like we can expect it to come out on the 28th :D
  • twogorgesoneskulktwogorgesoneskulk Join Date: 2013-02-26 Member: 183355Members
    Major gameplay changes incoming, minimal information on what's changing. Basically this patch is getting put out to try to sell more copies, and no doubt a massive discount on steam will appear simultaneously. If you're an existing member of the community though, just assume the position wait and see. Thanks UWE!
Sign In or Register to comment.