Now why don't you tell me why aliens SHOULD NOT get gorge tunnels?
I've covered it pretty much in my posts above, but to put it succinctly:
-Aliens are the faster race. If they are to receive a means to travel even faster then they can't have it both ways. Faster speed was justified since aliens had no means of teleportation. Now they get to have their cake and eat it too.
-Maps are smaller than in NS1, and with faster speed the aliens shouldn't need phase gates. One of the justifications for smaller maps was since the aliens had no teleportation and the marines did. Now they get both.
-Tunnels allow Onos to enter. It's bad enough the EXO can't use phase gates given their slow speed, but Onos will be allowed to use alien phase gates? So if aliens put a tunnel between the two of their hives they can cover both with the same Onos - which would not have been possible before. Imagine if the EXO could use phase gates, how much of a game changer *that* would be. Yet it's OK for the Onos?
-Tunnels negate risk. No longer will aliens risk death crossing the map when they have a tunnel. This makes map control meaningless for marines.
-It's just another asymmetric aspect of NS that has fallen by the wayside. One after another, asymmetry is slowly vanishing. We've seen huge symmetric shifts with the Khamm being added, aliens getting top-down view, single player chamber drops, hydras (sentries), aliens got t-res, marines got p-res, and they are also talking about giving aliens a marine style spawn queue. Now they get phase gates?
There is no such thing as a NEEDED new feature.
With respect Zek, any new feature needs to be justified within the scope of the game. Just because something seems "cool" doesn't means it is needed or justified. I'm sure people would love to see Lerks flying an Onos around. It would be cool (and hilarious) but would it be needed or justifiable?
- Opens up more tactical possibilities for the alien team, thus adding variety to the game
I'm cool with that - my point is that they didn't have 'add variety' by reducing asymmetry and buffing aliens yet again.
- Reduces dependency on Shift upgrades/eggs to give aliens decent map control
If that's a real issue, then untie the shift chamber from the hive. Allow it to be dropped without a per-requisite.
In the end, this patch is coming, so it's not like anything will change. I just don't think this was a good idea given the current state of alien dominance at present, and the fact that asymmetry seems to be slowly fading away.
I would think that the objective for any game designer is to maximize the number of people that can both have their cake, and eat it. I call that having fun.
The rest of your points sound like balance gripes. As has been stated, the game can achieve balance with as much or as little content as you like. Content does not affect balance, balance affects balance, and any content can be balanced.
I would think that the objective for any game designer is to maximize the number of people that can both have their cake, and eat it. I call that having fun.
So I guess it's cool then if we allow EXOs to use marine phase gates and be able to be beaconed right? I mean if fun is the only thing that matters, I know that would be a LOT more fun than it is now. Sound good?
I would think that the objective for any game designer is to maximize the number of people that can both have their cake, and eat it. I call that having fun.
So I guess it's cool then if we allow EXOs to use marine phase gates and be able to be beaconed right? I mean if fun is the only thing that matters, I know that would be a LOT more fun than it is now. Sound good?
Sure, so long as it doesn't overly upset a player who just spent 75 res on an Onos only to have 4 dual minigun mofos suddenly appear around him.
But that is more a balance concern anyway. Exos being able to phase or be distressed isn't content. Phasing and distressing already existed. The exo was introduces as content, and it was deemed necessary to remove its ability to phase or distress in order to balance it in such a way that maximized "fun". For example, another route they could have taken would be to reduce its damage to something just slightly above a shotgun. That way, it suddenly appearing all over the map wouldn't be such a big deal. However, everyone probably would have been quite upset with such a crappy 75 res tech unit.
Maximizing enjoyment is the important part. Its not only important for the person using the object to have fun, but also the people he is using the object against.
Being able to suddenly bust open a gorge tunnel in marine base probably would have upset half the players on the server. So they balanced it by restricting it to infestation only. Maybe people will still be upset about that, so maybe they will give it a really long build time or something. That's balancing. And it can occur indefinitely. When you add content, you really do just add something that is "cool". Its as simple as that.
As I said though, I do agree that the constant travel time of the tunnel overlaps with the theme of the phasegate. I would prefer that the travel time be related to the distance between entrances.
I love how the patch will likely come out on the 28th, only ~2 days before the invitational cup starts. Meaning that every team that doesn't have a playtester, leaking them information on all changed mechanics and added shit will have lots of last minute fun.
Dunno if its really a problem, but it sure isn't elegant.
PS: @playtesters feel free to leak me infos if you want :P
Actually I'm pretty sure bhopping did more than double your speed.
The speed cap in NS1 was 1.7 of base speed, so that is literally impossible. It's sad to see that you continue to assertively post your opinions without having any knowledge or experience to back them up with, leading to repeat posts containing nothing but misinformation.
Furthermore, you know very well the main reason for that mechanic in NS1 was because the maps were much larger and skulks were slower. (Anyone who hasn't played NS1 - try creating your own server just to try a skulk. You'll think you're running in slow motion compared to how it is now.) In NS1 it took 30 seconds to move between hives. In NS2 it's half that.
Are you kidding? Please, go and PLAY NS1. If you have, please put on your glasses and do it again. Grab a skulk and watch as you run at a slow trot. If you read the early dev posts in the alpha, you can see how they talk about skulk speed being faster. This is what precipitated the need for marine sprint to deal with that. Or are you going to suggest that they made marines faster and skulks slower? (You're not going to do that, right?)
Go ahead. Make a game of NS2 and run around as a skulk. Then blow the dust off your NS1 copy, make a game and run around as a skulk. I defy ANYONE to say they're running around faster in NS1. (especially because engine limitations restricted speed.).
Don't believe me, believe your eyes. Open up NS1, start a server and run around as skulk. The try a game of NS2 as skulk. Believe your eyes. If skulks are slower in NS2, then marines wouldn't have sprint. Think about it.
The easiest way to compare the relative speeds, is to run the same route on both games' version of veil. The route I chose was marine start to subsector (from the middle of marine start to the middle of the hive location/tech point). Comparing the size of both maps (easy enough, just resize minimaps to be the same size, align them over each other and make the top one 50% opacity), the distance traveled is actually greater on ns_veil than ns2_veil. Apart from the slightly shorter distance traveled on ns2_veil, the routes are functionally identical.
ns2_veil only holding w: 24 seconds.
ns2_veil walljumping: 20 seconds.
ns_veil only holding w: 21 seconds.
ns_veil bunnyhopping: 15 seconds.
I don't understand how you have the gall to keep posting after this exchange. That you don't even acknowledge that you just proved your complete lack of understanding of even fundamental gameplay mechanics after brazenly dismissing two experienced players telling you to stop posting misinformation proves what kind of a person you are. I'd call you the Comical Ali of these forums, but that would be a disservice to him, because at least he provided some entertainment value.
If I remember correctly NS1 skulk has 290 base speed and it goes up to some 530 in bhop. Your high level bhopper probably hangs somewhere a bit above 500 by average. My mediocre bhop probably averages somewhere 480 or so ( I haven't checked in actual gameplay, the cl_showspeed command only works with sv_cheats 1).
Most NS1 rounds had at least lvl 2 celerity picked up after 1:30 or so. The 3rd level was added soonish too. That means a 20% or 30% bonus to both base speed and bhop cap (The 1.7 or 1.8 ratio between bhop and base speed remains the same).
Someone with more NS2 knowledge can probably sort out the similar numbers for it if needed.
I don't understand how you have the gall to keep posting after this exchange.
Well now, nothing like a nice ad hominem attack to let me know when someone knows they have been beat. When you can't debate the merits of an issue, you fall back to personal attacks? How mature. Your remarks are actually quite comical given my involvement in the development of NS1. Since I have no intent to lower myself to your level, I won't respond in kind. That's not my way.
What I will say is that your responses show a complete lack of logical awareness of what I am discussing. You continually try to evade the issue, all the while spouting mindless statistics that have absolutely no relevance to the point being made. By the way, I ran Veil and came up with entirely different numbers, but that's not the point.
It was never the point.
Replying further to your posts is pointless. I see no reason to waste any more time with you.
They seem cheap and quick to build. I haven't found any references to prerequisites so far.
I remember them saying that it's going to be a 2-Hives ability. Not sure if you have to research Bile Bomb first or if it can be an alternative choice up front.
And cheap is relative. It's 20 pres for the Gorge to get a working tunnel. That sets you back for some Hydras and higher lifeforms, so it's something for dedicated Gorges only.
They seem cheap and quick to build. I haven't found any references to prerequisites so far.
I remember them saying that it's going to be a 2-Hives ability. Not sure if you have to research Bile Bomb first or if it can be an alternative choice up front.
And cheap is relative. It's 20 pres for the Gorge to get a working tunnel. That sets you back for some Hydras and higher lifeforms, so it's something for dedicated Gorges only.
Actually it's 20 res to research the tunnel ability but only 10 res for the actual gorge to create it.
Edit: Actually Lumina brought up a good point below. Not sure if it's 10 res for the entire tunnel or 10 res for each end making it 20.
douchebagatronCustom member titleJoin Date: 2003-12-20Member: 24581Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
from the wording it looks like each entrance is going to have its own health, which would lead me to believe that it's considered 2 separate structures. also since the limit is 2, and the comment is // entrance and exit then i'd imagine that it's 10 per opening, so 20 in total.
It seems like the goal of the gorgeous update is to basically make permagorges viable. currently they just have nothing to really spend res on. with this, which seems like a pretty powerful thing if used correctly, plus babblers, you could wind up with a pretty beefy and worthwhile gorge.
from the wording it looks like each entrance is going to have its own health, which would lead me to believe that it's considered 2 separate structures. also since the limit is 2, and the comment is // entrance and exit then i'd imagine that it's 10 per opening, so 20 in total.
It seems like the goal of the gorgeous update is to basically make permagorges viable. currently they just have nothing to really spend res on. with this, which seems like a pretty powerful thing if used correctly, plus babblers, you could wind up with a pretty beefy and worthwhile gorge.
Plus there have been some other things to consider, also in relation to Savant's "1 Onos for 2 Hives" argument:
-We don't know yet if the tunnels are going to be an early, mid or late game technology. The current tooltip for Bile Bomb in the game already says that it unlocks "WEBTECH", so we can probably assume that the Gorge Webs are going to be researchable after researching Bile Bomb. The question is if those Webs will be a 2-Hive ability (which would seem likely, given that they would be pretty useless in the late game) and if the Gorge Tunnels will be researchable after the Webs (or simultaneously) or only as 3-Hive ability and thus more like a game ender.
Depending on which research and Hive dependencies exist, the Tres cost for acquiring Gorge Tunnels may differ a lot.
-We don't know yet how easy it will be to get in an out of the tunnel, especially for an Onos. Maybe there is some delay that will make it an easy target for marines on the other side of the entrance. Also, depending on how easy it will be to destroy the tunnel ends (depending on HP and the size of the destroyable part), it can be bloody risky for an Onos to use the tunnel at all to get from one Hive to another, since the tunnel could collapse any time.
-The tunnel is also bound to the Gorge that created it. So if you destroy one entrance, THAT PARTICULAR GORGE has to walk around the map to that location again to build the entrance if it wants to get it working again, as opposed to Phase Gates that are dropped by the commander from Tres and can be build by any marine that happens to be at the destination location.
-As opposed to Phase Gates, you can only connect two areas with each other, has travel time and is a double-edged sword, so the mobility advantage aliens would get with this would stay a relatively little and costly one compared to marines. If they want more than one location connected, they need another Gorge that creates another tunnel right next to it.
-The more Pres is invested into tunnels, the less Pres is invested into Hydras and higher lifeforms.
I don't understand how you have the gall to keep posting after this exchange.
Well now, nothing like a nice ad hominem attack to let me know when someone knows they have been beat. When you can't debate the merits of an issue, you fall back to personal attacks? How mature. Your remarks are actually quite comical given my involvement in the development of NS1. Since I have no intent to lower myself to your level, I won't respond in kind. That's not my way.
What I will say is that your responses show a complete lack of logical awareness of what I am discussing. You continually try to evade the issue, all the while spouting mindless statistics that have absolutely no relevance to the point being made. By the way, I ran Veil and came up with entirely different numbers, but that's not the point.
It was never the point.
Replying further to your posts is pointless. I see no reason to waste any more time with you.
only one thing that I expect for this update... a release date :P everything i've found out so far seems very interesting and basically i wanna try it out, then if there is more that i want i suppose i'll post it up
Major gameplay changes incoming, minimal information on what's changing. Basically this patch is getting put out to try to sell more copies, and no doubt a massive discount on steam will appear simultaneously. If you're an existing member of the community though, just assume the position wait and see. Thanks UWE!
Comments
-Aliens are the faster race. If they are to receive a means to travel even faster then they can't have it both ways. Faster speed was justified since aliens had no means of teleportation. Now they get to have their cake and eat it too.
-Maps are smaller than in NS1, and with faster speed the aliens shouldn't need phase gates. One of the justifications for smaller maps was since the aliens had no teleportation and the marines did. Now they get both.
-Tunnels allow Onos to enter. It's bad enough the EXO can't use phase gates given their slow speed, but Onos will be allowed to use alien phase gates? So if aliens put a tunnel between the two of their hives they can cover both with the same Onos - which would not have been possible before. Imagine if the EXO could use phase gates, how much of a game changer *that* would be. Yet it's OK for the Onos?
-Tunnels negate risk. No longer will aliens risk death crossing the map when they have a tunnel. This makes map control meaningless for marines.
-It's just another asymmetric aspect of NS that has fallen by the wayside. One after another, asymmetry is slowly vanishing. We've seen huge symmetric shifts with the Khamm being added, aliens getting top-down view, single player chamber drops, hydras (sentries), aliens got t-res, marines got p-res, and they are also talking about giving aliens a marine style spawn queue. Now they get phase gates?
With respect Zek, any new feature needs to be justified within the scope of the game. Just because something seems "cool" doesn't means it is needed or justified. I'm sure people would love to see Lerks flying an Onos around. It would be cool (and hilarious) but would it be needed or justifiable?
I'm cool with that - my point is that they didn't have 'add variety' by reducing asymmetry and buffing aliens yet again.
If that's a real issue, then untie the shift chamber from the hive. Allow it to be dropped without a per-requisite.
In the end, this patch is coming, so it's not like anything will change. I just don't think this was a good idea given the current state of alien dominance at present, and the fact that asymmetry seems to be slowly fading away.
I would think that the objective for any game designer is to maximize the number of people that can both have their cake, and eat it. I call that having fun.
The rest of your points sound like balance gripes. As has been stated, the game can achieve balance with as much or as little content as you like. Content does not affect balance, balance affects balance, and any content can be balanced.
Sure, so long as it doesn't overly upset a player who just spent 75 res on an Onos only to have 4 dual minigun mofos suddenly appear around him.
But that is more a balance concern anyway. Exos being able to phase or be distressed isn't content. Phasing and distressing already existed. The exo was introduces as content, and it was deemed necessary to remove its ability to phase or distress in order to balance it in such a way that maximized "fun". For example, another route they could have taken would be to reduce its damage to something just slightly above a shotgun. That way, it suddenly appearing all over the map wouldn't be such a big deal. However, everyone probably would have been quite upset with such a crappy 75 res tech unit.
Maximizing enjoyment is the important part. Its not only important for the person using the object to have fun, but also the people he is using the object against.
Being able to suddenly bust open a gorge tunnel in marine base probably would have upset half the players on the server. So they balanced it by restricting it to infestation only. Maybe people will still be upset about that, so maybe they will give it a really long build time or something. That's balancing. And it can occur indefinitely. When you add content, you really do just add something that is "cool". Its as simple as that.
As I said though, I do agree that the constant travel time of the tunnel overlaps with the theme of the phasegate. I would prefer that the travel time be related to the distance between entrances.
Dunno if its really a problem, but it sure isn't elegant.
PS: @playtesters feel free to leak me infos if you want :P
At this point I'd just like to point out:
I don't understand how you have the gall to keep posting after this exchange. That you don't even acknowledge that you just proved your complete lack of understanding of even fundamental gameplay mechanics after brazenly dismissing two experienced players telling you to stop posting misinformation proves what kind of a person you are. I'd call you the Comical Ali of these forums, but that would be a disservice to him, because at least he provided some entertainment value.
If I remember correctly NS1 skulk has 290 base speed and it goes up to some 530 in bhop. Your high level bhopper probably hangs somewhere a bit above 500 by average. My mediocre bhop probably averages somewhere 480 or so ( I haven't checked in actual gameplay, the cl_showspeed command only works with sv_cheats 1).
Most NS1 rounds had at least lvl 2 celerity picked up after 1:30 or so. The 3rd level was added soonish too. That means a 20% or 30% bonus to both base speed and bhop cap (The 1.7 or 1.8 ratio between bhop and base speed remains the same).
Someone with more NS2 knowledge can probably sort out the similar numbers for it if needed.
It would be funny to drop one in front of a PG and have the other side going to the bottom of crevice or into the lava falls.
What I will say is that your responses show a complete lack of logical awareness of what I am discussing. You continually try to evade the issue, all the while spouting mindless statistics that have absolutely no relevance to the point being made. By the way, I ran Veil and came up with entirely different numbers, but that's not the point.
It was never the point.
Replying further to your posts is pointless. I see no reason to waste any more time with you.
WHOS LOOKING FORWARD TO GORGEOUS!?
We're less then a week away now from playing it in pubs ... <:-P
Fana v the forum all-star tagteam Savant/Strofix
Are they trolls? Or are they verbose idiots.
PLACE YOUR BETS.
They seem cheap and quick to build. I haven't found any references to prerequisites so far.
I remember them saying that it's going to be a 2-Hives ability. Not sure if you have to research Bile Bomb first or if it can be an alternative choice up front.
And cheap is relative. It's 20 pres for the Gorge to get a working tunnel. That sets you back for some Hydras and higher lifeforms, so it's something for dedicated Gorges only.
Actually it's 20 res to research the tunnel ability but only 10 res for the actual gorge to create it.
Edit: Actually Lumina brought up a good point below. Not sure if it's 10 res for the entire tunnel or 10 res for each end making it 20.
20 res would be expensive for a gorge.
It seems like the goal of the gorgeous update is to basically make permagorges viable. currently they just have nothing to really spend res on. with this, which seems like a pretty powerful thing if used correctly, plus babblers, you could wind up with a pretty beefy and worthwhile gorge.
Plus there have been some other things to consider, also in relation to Savant's "1 Onos for 2 Hives" argument:
-We don't know yet if the tunnels are going to be an early, mid or late game technology. The current tooltip for Bile Bomb in the game already says that it unlocks "WEBTECH", so we can probably assume that the Gorge Webs are going to be researchable after researching Bile Bomb. The question is if those Webs will be a 2-Hive ability (which would seem likely, given that they would be pretty useless in the late game) and if the Gorge Tunnels will be researchable after the Webs (or simultaneously) or only as 3-Hive ability and thus more like a game ender.
Depending on which research and Hive dependencies exist, the Tres cost for acquiring Gorge Tunnels may differ a lot.
-We don't know yet how easy it will be to get in an out of the tunnel, especially for an Onos. Maybe there is some delay that will make it an easy target for marines on the other side of the entrance. Also, depending on how easy it will be to destroy the tunnel ends (depending on HP and the size of the destroyable part), it can be bloody risky for an Onos to use the tunnel at all to get from one Hive to another, since the tunnel could collapse any time.
-The tunnel is also bound to the Gorge that created it. So if you destroy one entrance, THAT PARTICULAR GORGE has to walk around the map to that location again to build the entrance if it wants to get it working again, as opposed to Phase Gates that are dropped by the commander from Tres and can be build by any marine that happens to be at the destination location.
-As opposed to Phase Gates, you can only connect two areas with each other, has travel time and is a double-edged sword, so the mobility advantage aliens would get with this would stay a relatively little and costly one compared to marines. If they want more than one location connected, they need another Gorge that creates another tunnel right next to it.
-The more Pres is invested into tunnels, the less Pres is invested into Hydras and higher lifeforms.
Arguing with Fana on the facts of NS1. Amusing.
If anybody remembers from the 187 and BAD combat servers, I was a spider gorge.