ARCs still don't make intuitive sense
Wisp
Join Date: 2007-12-18 Member: 63211Members, Reinforced - Diamond
Join Date: 2007-12-18 Member: 63211Members, Reinforced - Diamond
This issue has long bothered me. ARCs can fire through walls. I don't know if this feature carries over from Natural Selection 1, but it's a confusing game mechanic and it makes ARCs a lot less fun than they should be. Way back when the ARC was first discussed, the original vision was a siege unit that Marines would have to escort and protect. This excited me, because it has a lot of gameplay possibilities. Marines have to communicate with the Commander to help protect the ARC, and Aliens have to rally to defeat it. But now what happens is the Marines push into the enemy base, and the ARC sits behind the action, behind the front lines. Marines don't have to work as hard to protect it, and Aliens can't really get to it as easily. I think the ARC should be in the thick of the action.
Another issue is that the way ARCs work now doesn't make intuitive sense. It doesn't make sense for a weapon to fire through walls, even if it's an energy based weapon. I imagine this is especially confusing for a new player. They may be in a base and see the ARC's attacks, but not understand that it's coming from ARCs themselves.
So how can this unit be changed so that it can only fire by line of sight and still be viable?
I figure that it could have a major increase in health and armor so that Aliens need to make a concerted effort to bring it down. It could also be changed to damage players as well, although perhaps with a smaller area of effect.
I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about redesigning the ARC.
Another issue is that the way ARCs work now doesn't make intuitive sense. It doesn't make sense for a weapon to fire through walls, even if it's an energy based weapon. I imagine this is especially confusing for a new player. They may be in a base and see the ARC's attacks, but not understand that it's coming from ARCs themselves.
So how can this unit be changed so that it can only fire by line of sight and still be viable?
I figure that it could have a major increase in health and armor so that Aliens need to make a concerted effort to bring it down. It could also be changed to damage players as well, although perhaps with a smaller area of effect.
I'd be interested to hear what you guys think about redesigning the ARC.
Comments
The lore or explanation for it doesn't really matter. You can't communicate that information to the player visually in a concise manner. It's a generally good rule of thumb in game design to not have attacks that the player can't see. It's incredibly frustrating to not know where you are being attacked from.
Range on ARCs are relatively small for artillery (which is the original "kill you from outside your own LOS" weapon). I suppose UWE could draw a special graphic that shows where the attack came from, but really, can't you tell from the minimap? Normally you can tell where it is simply from map control. The exceptions are maybe in Central Drilling/Deposit or the old Bar/Locker siege positions but the latter has been removed and the former everyone knows about.
Sorry, but if alien players are saying Marines have no excuse missing bilebomb attacks, then aliens have even less of an excuse not seeing slow moving 15 res per tank targets known as ARCs taking over a minute to truck slowly across the map all the way from their main base to yours, set up, and siege your hive down.
Still, perhaps a moving sonic boom effect that goes from the ARC to the hive would work help alleviate this problem.
Also, from release to this most recent patch Lerks had near invisible spikes that were impossible to spot in open areas. Where were you then?
I'm not someone who plays this game every day. I'm a casual player, so please forgive me. I can only speak from my experience playing. As an Alien player under siege by an ARC, it's incredibly frustrating not knowing where your base is being assaulted from. As a Marine player, it's not very fun escorting an ARC, because they are never really a part of the action.
I've never played a game where a unit can attack through walls, and I wouldn't call it a particularly innovative mechanic. It seems like a balance mechanism to make ARCs easier to use, but it ends up making them unfun.
I have found Lerks frustrating too.
giving it more health is merely turning it into a pseudo onos.... alien shift/crag/shade/whip spam is nigh impenetrable without ARC's ability to shoot through a wall.
But Arcs are also unique and deeply satisfying on a strategic level. I mean listen to that ominous sound when it fires, while your team is frantically trying to cover these arcs firing against a wall. It's frantic and for a game set in the future, it's immersive.
For a game that has a hybrid FPS and RTS element, arcs firing through walls makes a lot of sense. It wouldn't make sense in an FPS only environment.
The vast majority of players are playing in an FPS environment, and there are a solid number of players that will never touch the RTS elements. Firing through walls just doesn't make sense, at all.
Anyway, you guys would be surprised by how easily players get frustrated or don't give a game a second chance. One bad experience can lead a player to quit a game forever, which would be a real shame for NS2, since it's such a deep, rewarding game.
In all the time that I have played so far and with all the newbies, there has only been 1 that I've seen get frustrated.
He said:
New player: "I don't like this game".
Me: "Why?"
Me: "Is it because you are dying a lot?"
New player: "Yes"
/facepalm...........
The purpose of the ARC is a siege unit. It doesn't have to fire through walls, that's why I proposed changes that could make it a viable unit that fires by LOS.
It's different from an EXO because it's considerably slower, takes time to set-up, and fires an area of affect attack. It's like the difference between a Goliath and a Siege Tank in Starcraft.
If a unit design isn't working, then I don't think the developers should be afraid to make radical changes. I don't think the ARC works very well right now, because it is very confusing for new players and it usually isn't the focal point of the battle, as it should be. Aliens should be desperately trying to bring it down before it kills their base, while Marines should be trying to defend it at all costs. It currently sits outside the battle, which is boring.
Also, ARCs are kind of hard to miss as you have to get fairly close to a location to use. They also have very distinct sounds and visual effects such that once you know that's the ARC sound/effect, you've basically learned all you need to know.
Riiight?
I mean.. really.
That probably includes aliens
"MORE CRAGS KHERMANDER"
If you were to remove the wall-shooting, you would need to significantly buff the ARCs to counteract it.
Anything is viable at the right cost. If you make them cost 3 or 5 and upgrade in a third of the time, they'll be viable, sure. But they'll also be just plain ugly from a gameplay and design perspective.
They're fine as they are, and when used correctly, on non-bad teams, when they're rushed and coordinated, and in games which don't last over 20 minutes as a "I have too much t.res and the team sucks and we can't coordinate anything just get exos and then spam 30 arcs and then ragepraydeploy the train inside the hive with 65535 macs around them" syphon, they're really great.
Unfortunately, you probably won't see arcs used much or "correctly/competitively" on pubs due to the coordination required in both the commander and marine positions.
Siege Tanks can still shoot at targets behind walls, so long as a unit gives them vision. Actually, Goliaths can too. Not really sure if this analogy is accurate.
ARCs are a way to end turtles when aliens are holed up behind tons of structures. It moves the battlefield away from their support and challenges the alien's map control near their base. Yes, being ARCed for the first time can be confusing, but they are far from overpowered; ARCs also have glaring weaknesses, mainly being expensive, slow, and defenseless.
Again, ARC's purpose is to destroy structures and make the Aliens static defences useless. I don't fully understand why you need to fire through walls to achieve that. Siege Cannons in NS1 were another deal because they didn't move.
I wouldn't mind if they removed ARC's altogether actually. ARC's have always been so-so at best. They're clumsy, buggy, look bad, unintuitive... Replace them with a new type of Exo; a Siege Exo. The player deploys the Exo which makes it static and restricts the players turn arc and mouse sensitivity. A huge sonic gun with a gun sight comes out, and the player goes about obliterating structures within sight and the blast radius. Aiming at Alien player turns the crosshair red while aiming at structures turns it green.
Good thing you haven't played Nuclear Dawn, where enemy commander can just point and clock on you and you are dead
In ns1 there was no surprise. hell the maps had siege rooms. Marines had to build a mini base, set up a tf upgrade the tf then build the siege cannon, ( I think only one cannon per upgraded factory?) The aliens had like 3 minutes to charge the location and take it out before the siege cannon entered play. It was a heavy investment to make, and back then an onos could eat up one of your heavy armors and run away digesting him for a while before he dies and respawns, or they kill the onos and drag him out of its gut. Fades shot acid, lerks shot spores. gorges built everything.
this.
the ARC is virtually the only way for marines to attack certain positions, and that is due to the ability to shoot through walls - not the 'range'. aliens can spam shift eggs, crags etc and stall a marine push forever.
it's pretty much the only way marines can make comeback after falling behind against a half-decent alien team.
The aliens can use themselves to scout, use hydra's, use drifters.. All of these can help protect versus arcs so you can not be surprised.
When you're able to sustain an attack within sight of a hive, you don't really need ARCs anyway, as you'd be able to shoot it down yourself. You need ARCs when you can't sustain a frontal attack. That's how they're designed, that's their purpose, to give marines a different means to break through and lure the aliens out of their stronghold. It has been like this since NS1. It's a game mechanic that works and provides some tense and very fun gameplay moments. Making line of sight essential to ARC-functioning would make them a very costly and redundant way of killing a hive.
Is it counter intuitive to have something shoot through a wall, yes. But the moment you see it happen, you will know, and understand the importance of proper scouting/drifter placement. That's where the confusion stops.
You say it's confusing but I've never seen anyone be confused about it. The explosions are very distinct, there's no mistaking what's happening when your hive room starts to get sieged by ARCs. Their relatively short range means that it's pretty much always immediately obvious where the attack is coming from, especially since their movement and setup is so telegraphed. I think ARCs are working fine and you're just trying to create a justification for why you personally don't like them.