It's definitely my least favourite map, together with mineshaft, though mineshaft has come a long way and is at least in an okay state nowadays. I think it's normal some maps are 'love it' or 'hate it', just need more maps in general so I hope we get some more A++ community maps getting finished and picked up by UWE. (Jambi is a good candidate imo)
I apologise that the word 'crap' is disrespectful to the mapper, I'm northern english and it's not that strong a word to me :P I do appreciate that a lot of work has gone into it (I can't make maps) but the point I was trying to make seems to have been missed that after playing it much more than Descent I still can't say anything about any of the rooms because the style is very similar.
I think Descent is comparable to Rome, you walk to the end of any road and there's something visually striking about every part that makes you think: Wow!
I guess as Huw said, was a much larger budget and as another guy said, it's a space station VS refinery and there isn't too much to work with. The middle room is striking with all of the lava but it seems like the rest of the map is quite samey. (I'm not questioning the layout or playability).
Anyway, like everything else in NS2, Refinery is a work-in-progress. Most of the changes from here on in are likely to be gameplay-related rather than visual though, we're pretty happy with the way it looks, to be honest (plus I've begun work on new things). I guess some people don't go for the grungy industrial look, that's fair enough, but it is a big refinery after all, so not much can be done about that.
The next thing on the list to be put in front of the heroic Map Testers is reducing the travel time between Flow Control and Smelting. I know a lot of people aren't too happy about that so I might as well pay attention! I feel like we're beginning to dial in on some real improvements to the way the map plays, and hopefully that will make a big difference.
But if you like Descent more than Refinery, that's ok! You should play on it more often. I'm not sure what you thought this thread was going to achieve though.
I'm not sure what you thought this thread was going to achieve though.
I just wanted to express like, my opinion, man.
I wasn't after a redesign either! I think from an art-style it hits the nail on the head. It has a particular style and it looks great... I was just talking about having a few more iconic locations to make it feel less monotonous.
You're walking through Rome and it's like: Huge colosseum, huge statue, striking fountain, another huge statue, huge white building with charriots on top, road with statues on the corner of each house.
Refinery isn't dull. Given all the smelting going on it looks quite different than other maps.
Cave has to be the dullest. It has one non generic area, the cave, but no fighting is ever done inside there it is done outside the cave looking in. The water falls in cave also feel like wasted potential just at the edge. It would be so much better if you had t move through a few of them.
It is still a bit crap though. Lava falls still doesn't really work as an area. Marines wont use the vertical element in lava as its more of a disadvantage than advantage. Because marines generally wont hang about or move through lava falls, unless you are much the better team, it feels like you are playing 2 very narrow maps at the left and right sides while occasionally pruning back the infestation and close RT in the middle.
Smelting is also a bit far for marines and the approach to smelting has moving elements with no collision on them so skulks can hide behind the cruicables and then leap directly through them. Though i've also gotten a few cheap kills by shooting through them too :P .
@Intellex Wow OP, with a title and post as insensitive as yours, look at that awesome response you got from Insane.. you should take notes, that man is a gentleman!
Not sure what to say other than that I disagree, Refinery is quite memorable. The maps I find least memorable are Tram and Summit.
Summit is a wagon wheel. The entire map is a sequential closed loop if you cut out Crossroads which is essentially what both teams try to do. You want to go from flight to atrium you have to go through crevice, to get from there to Data you have to go through reactor, through vent to get to sub, and through computer to get back to flight. You can cut across the middle to get to the opposite ends but the pathing is just so restrictive it forces you into a border war.
Tram feels like the template all other maps are based on. It has a hub, 5 techs, plenty of alternate routes, and no special gimmick. Refinery is similar except for the two RTs in lava and the unusual shape of lava.
I still think that instead of going to all the trouble of messing with the route between flow control and smelting that if you flip the map and have aliens start in flow control and smelting that the travel issue becomes moot. Aliens can travel quickly between the two, and there is a vent that can shorten the trip that even gorges can enter from the flow control side.
With marines in Containment/turbine (and an extra extractor in heatsink - perhaps removing exchange) the travel time issue is gone. It also addresses the issue at Lava Falls where the extractor at the Falls Approach needs the power node at Lava Falls installed. With the map flipped that's not an issue, since marines would be pushing from the other side.
Anyway, Andrew may not want to go that way, but I don't think there are any major flaws with the map.
Hm, now Hugh said it before me, but I'd like to add:
Awesome job intellix! Months of creative and technical work on this map and you call it crap just like that! You are the man.
Just cause someone spends tons of time on something does not mean you are not allowed to call it crap. As someone once said, a superbly polished turd is still a turd.
I know it may be somewhat counter to the atmosphere of NS2, but I'd really like to see some outdoor areas like crevice where I can fly freely with the lerk. We have a dedicated flying class for the aliens, and yet there aren't very many areas can be accessible by flight only or many open air areas where flying can really be uniquely used. On the other hand crevice may just be a placebo effect for me- most of the tech point rooms in the game can be quite spacious, especially those with high ceilings.
I imagine an "open air" map where most of the areas are outdoors- perhaps situated at night in a forest/jungle setting where lerks can take advantage of their flight and roost on some high rock vantage point to scout out and harass marines in a way that skulks/fades might not otherwise be able to.
I know it may be somewhat counter to the atmosphere of NS2, but I'd really like to see some outdoor areas like crevice where I can fly freely with the lerk. We have a dedicated flying class for the aliens, and yet there aren't very many areas can be accessible by flight only or many open air areas where flying can really be uniquely used. On the other hand crevice may just be a placebo effect for me- most of the tech point rooms in the game can be quite spacious, especially those with high ceilings.
I imagine an "open air" map where most of the areas are outdoors- perhaps situated at night in a forest/jungle setting where lerks can take advantage of their flight and roost on some high rock vantage point to scout out and harass marines in a way that skulks/fades might not otherwise be able to.
Total placebo when you realize crevice is closed in on all sides by visible and invisible walls and the lower death zone. I think it's roughly the same size as Cave in mineshaft
Also, when you next post a thread in General Discussion, refrain from calling people's work 'crap.'
First:
I like Refinery.
Second:
Calling a map "Crap" is an opinion, regardless of how much effort someone put into something, it can still be crap.
As an example:
Any 5 year old's drawings/Macaroni art.
You might not call it crap to their face, but that doesn't mean it's good.
The problem with refinery is the tech point rooms are really boring. They're all fairly big open rooms with the techpoint pushed off to one corner. Sure, some have props/vertical terrain that blocks line of sight to make it a little more interesting, but for the most part that map is a bunch of big boxes connected with a bunch of hallways. This is something that's true of most maps. But refinery is particularly onerous in that it's got very little going on visually to make up for that. Summit has rooms with curves and windows, tram is unique in that no other maps have a tram tunnel kind of thing, docking has unique art/textures that set it apart, mineshaft looks cool and has a lot of detailed stuff like the crystals or the waterfall, or the big drill in drill repair.
It's not that refinery is a bad map, it's not even the worst in the game (mineshaft has my vote.) It's just that the marine's best option is always to cap smelting first. It's the easiest second tech point for them to hold, and it's the natural 3rd hive location for the aliens. Pipeworks is in a spot where the marines can probably hold it for awhile if the Aliens start in transit (or whatever the top right tech point is called), but if the aliens start in containment they can basically just throw skulks at pipeworks until the marines lose.
I have a lot of fun on refinery, don't get me wrong, but it's really just not even in the same ballpark as descent... at least visually. I'm loving the gameplay on descent so far but haven't played it enough to make a judgement on it.
Doing something to make the lava falls area more interesting would go a long way to helping the map, imo. As it stands right now, the lava is fairly unattractive on medium/low graphics settings and the layout of the area really doesn't add much to gameplay. I try to avoid that area as much as possible unless it's the fastest way to get from A to B.
I honestly think the thing that would set refinery apart the most, is to make it the "scary" map. Dump some blood and dead bodies into the map, make the lights flicker a little bit, add some creepy ambient sounds... it seems to me like it would be a small amount of effort and would make the map much more unique and interesting.
I know that NS2 isn't a horror game, but a lot of the material that Ns2 was influenced by was pretty dark and scary. I think you'd be doing everyone a service by playing the horror aspect up a little more, at least on one map.
i quite like refinery, truth is though the new assets and textures in descent are much improved and seem to be of an overall better quality which brings descent to life. Refinery is certainly not an ugly map and i like to play on it now and then even thoguh its possibly the least popular map.
i feel like the old docking textures are the worst and docking is abit hit and miss in terms of styling, but the new textures added to the recent docking update certainly look nice.
The water falls in cave also feel like wasted potential just at the edge. It would be so much better if you had t move through a few of them.
This is true. I wish there were as many fights in Cave as there are in Repair, Central, or Gap. Combined. The view is so much better there, it's a shame we only see it when Aliens are about to lose.
@Insane: rather than shortening travel time between smelting and flow control, how about lengthening the travel time between the other hives?
I would prefer to make the map smaller, rather than bigger. During playtesting, it was more or less as you suggest, and it wasn't especially fun. The more I've done to make the map more compact the more fun to play it has gotten, generally speaking.
I have had some awesome games on refinery, and the changes around smelting-turbine now have only improved it further. It was somewhat alien favoured from release but I don't get that feeling any more (gorgeous update skulk movement changes aside). I've hardly played on Descent yet, as I've not had much time since Gorgeous landed and all the servers I join are running tram/summit/refinery whenever I'm on! However, the couple of quick games I had on there were fun. I think the only change I would suggest on Refinery is changing the name 'empty space' to something that's less likely to be confused with 'go shove yourself out of an air lock'
Just cause someone spends tons of time on something does not mean you are not allowed to call it crap.
It does on this forum. If you can't maintain civility in the presence of hard work and effort I or another mod will drop the ban hammer on you faster than you can quote the 1st amendment.
Was looking through descent and it's quite awesome. All of the areas are memorable and that makes it both fun and easy to navigate around.
Before Gorgeous I thought Refinery was boring and now after seeing descent it's even more evidence how pants it is. The map is very samey and there aren't really any locations (apart from middle) that are so memorable... perhaps it could do with being revamped somewhat? Just to make particular areas more memorable :P
Nope. Descent isn't very good, it's a try-hard map designed to be pretty and showy. The important factor- how it plays- is rather low. I rate it lower than Mineshaft. It's too large, winding, confusing, and claustrophobic.
Not sure what to make of this post.
It's large - fact. Not necessarily a negative thing. It's winding - fact. Once again not really a negative thing.
Confusing - well, as you learn the map and hold C every once in a while.. that will change.
Claustrophobic - it's a space station? And plenty of the rooms are LARGE so I'm not really sure this is a great way to describe it either.
Nope. Descent isn't very good, it's a try-hard map designed to be pretty and showy. The important factor- how it plays- is rather low. I rate it lower than Mineshaft. It's too large, winding, confusing, and claustrophobic.
Not sure what to make of this post.
It's large - fact. Not necessarily a negative thing. It's winding - fact. Once again not really a negative thing.
Confusing - well, as you learn the map and hold C every once in a while.. that will change.
Claustrophobic - it's a space station? And plenty of the rooms are LARGE so I'm not really sure this is a great way to describe it either.
Dang how did I miss that guys post? It's funny because he has no idea that the map was original tested very simply in order to make changes as needed for balance and flow. All that pretty stuff came at the very very end of its development. The hell does "try-hard map" even mean?!
Comments
I think Descent is comparable to Rome, you walk to the end of any road and there's something visually striking about every part that makes you think: Wow!
I guess as Huw said, was a much larger budget and as another guy said, it's a space station VS refinery and there isn't too much to work with. The middle room is striking with all of the lava but it seems like the rest of the map is quite samey. (I'm not questioning the layout or playability).
I laughed!
Anyway, like everything else in NS2, Refinery is a work-in-progress. Most of the changes from here on in are likely to be gameplay-related rather than visual though, we're pretty happy with the way it looks, to be honest (plus I've begun work on new things). I guess some people don't go for the grungy industrial look, that's fair enough, but it is a big refinery after all, so not much can be done about that.
The next thing on the list to be put in front of the heroic Map Testers is reducing the travel time between Flow Control and Smelting. I know a lot of people aren't too happy about that so I might as well pay attention! I feel like we're beginning to dial in on some real improvements to the way the map plays, and hopefully that will make a big difference.
But if you like Descent more than Refinery, that's ok! You should play on it more often. I'm not sure what you thought this thread was going to achieve though.
I wasn't after a redesign either! I think from an art-style it hits the nail on the head. It has a particular style and it looks great... I was just talking about having a few more iconic locations to make it feel less monotonous.
You're walking through Rome and it's like: Huge colosseum, huge statue, striking fountain, another huge statue, huge white building with charriots on top, road with statues on the corner of each house.
Cave has to be the dullest. It has one non generic area, the cave, but no fighting is ever done inside there it is done outside the cave looking in. The water falls in cave also feel like wasted potential just at the edge. It would be so much better if you had t move through a few of them.
It is still a bit crap though. Lava falls still doesn't really work as an area. Marines wont use the vertical element in lava as its more of a disadvantage than advantage. Because marines generally wont hang about or move through lava falls, unless you are much the better team, it feels like you are playing 2 very narrow maps at the left and right sides while occasionally pruning back the infestation and close RT in the middle.
Smelting is also a bit far for marines and the approach to smelting has moving elements with no collision on them so skulks can hide behind the cruicables and then leap directly through them. Though i've also gotten a few cheap kills by shooting through them too :P .
I still get lost, but in time that will fix itself.
Its not that bad to have a map with many twists & turns, which is big.
Summit is a wagon wheel. The entire map is a sequential closed loop if you cut out Crossroads which is essentially what both teams try to do. You want to go from flight to atrium you have to go through crevice, to get from there to Data you have to go through reactor, through vent to get to sub, and through computer to get back to flight. You can cut across the middle to get to the opposite ends but the pathing is just so restrictive it forces you into a border war.
Tram feels like the template all other maps are based on. It has a hub, 5 techs, plenty of alternate routes, and no special gimmick. Refinery is similar except for the two RTs in lava and the unusual shape of lava.
With marines in Containment/turbine (and an extra extractor in heatsink - perhaps removing exchange) the travel time issue is gone. It also addresses the issue at Lava Falls where the extractor at the Falls Approach needs the power node at Lava Falls installed. With the map flipped that's not an issue, since marines would be pushing from the other side.
Anyway, Andrew may not want to go that way, but I don't think there are any major flaws with the map.
Just cause someone spends tons of time on something does not mean you are not allowed to call it crap. As someone once said, a superbly polished turd is still a turd.
I imagine an "open air" map where most of the areas are outdoors- perhaps situated at night in a forest/jungle setting where lerks can take advantage of their flight and roost on some high rock vantage point to scout out and harass marines in a way that skulks/fades might not otherwise be able to.
Total placebo when you realize crevice is closed in on all sides by visible and invisible walls and the lower death zone. I think it's roughly the same size as Cave in mineshaft
How is falls not iconic or memorable? It's giant freaking lavafalls. That is so cool.
First:
I like Refinery.
Second:
Calling a map "Crap" is an opinion, regardless of how much effort someone put into something, it can still be crap.
As an example:
Any 5 year old's drawings/Macaroni art.
You might not call it crap to their face, but that doesn't mean it's good.
It's not that refinery is a bad map, it's not even the worst in the game (mineshaft has my vote.) It's just that the marine's best option is always to cap smelting first. It's the easiest second tech point for them to hold, and it's the natural 3rd hive location for the aliens. Pipeworks is in a spot where the marines can probably hold it for awhile if the Aliens start in transit (or whatever the top right tech point is called), but if the aliens start in containment they can basically just throw skulks at pipeworks until the marines lose.
I have a lot of fun on refinery, don't get me wrong, but it's really just not even in the same ballpark as descent... at least visually. I'm loving the gameplay on descent so far but haven't played it enough to make a judgement on it.
Doing something to make the lava falls area more interesting would go a long way to helping the map, imo. As it stands right now, the lava is fairly unattractive on medium/low graphics settings and the layout of the area really doesn't add much to gameplay. I try to avoid that area as much as possible unless it's the fastest way to get from A to B.
I honestly think the thing that would set refinery apart the most, is to make it the "scary" map. Dump some blood and dead bodies into the map, make the lights flicker a little bit, add some creepy ambient sounds... it seems to me like it would be a small amount of effort and would make the map much more unique and interesting.
I know that NS2 isn't a horror game, but a lot of the material that Ns2 was influenced by was pretty dark and scary. I think you'd be doing everyone a service by playing the horror aspect up a little more, at least on one map.
i feel like the old docking textures are the worst and docking is abit hit and miss in terms of styling, but the new textures added to the recent docking update certainly look nice.
There's only so much orange-and-teal that one can appreciate. Eventually it all becomes the same.
This is true. I wish there were as many fights in Cave as there are in Repair, Central, or Gap. Combined. The view is so much better there, it's a shame we only see it when Aliens are about to lose.
I would prefer to make the map smaller, rather than bigger. During playtesting, it was more or less as you suggest, and it wasn't especially fun. The more I've done to make the map more compact the more fun to play it has gotten, generally speaking.
It does on this forum. If you can't maintain civility in the presence of hard work and effort I or another mod will drop the ban hammer on you faster than you can quote the 1st amendment.
Not sure what to make of this post.
It's large - fact. Not necessarily a negative thing. It's winding - fact. Once again not really a negative thing.
Confusing - well, as you learn the map and hold C every once in a while.. that will change.
Claustrophobic - it's a space station? And plenty of the rooms are LARGE so I'm not really sure this is a great way to describe it either.
Dang how did I miss that guys post? It's funny because he has no idea that the map was original tested very simply in order to make changes as needed for balance and flow. All that pretty stuff came at the very very end of its development. The hell does "try-hard map" even mean?!