What Exactly Are Babblers For?

rmbrown09rmbrown09 Join Date: 2012-10-17 Member: 162592Members
edited March 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
I don't want hate on a new feature, but Babblers to me seem useless. I play gorge 70% of the time I am Alien and I always random. I like to think of myself as a proficient builder defender type. I can battle gorge but prefer locking down a new hive, advancing room by room with clogs and hydras.

The Babblers seem weak and pointless to me. As a marine all they ever seem to do is get in the way a little. Certainly not something that is scary. As a alien putting them on myself means I can take a few extra bullets, but that never has saved me in a situation and most of the rest of the time I give it to a skulk fade lerk or whatever, they seem to just fall off or die immediately.

The one instance where they seemed ok was clogging off a doorway and constantly creating more, throwing my bait ball over the wall and having them distract the marines on the other side. Again though them seem to be such a tiny factor in the game. Something that is certainly not a game changer like the tunnels. I think if they received a speed buff so that marines actually had to take notice, or perhaps had more bite or health.

tldr; what do i do with these things.
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Comments

  • bongofishbongofish Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19893Members
    Mostly they seem like a toy. Their AI is still sketchy, so they are difficult to reliably control.

    The armor effect could be a nice use for them if they stayed attached until they were shot off. I think they only last 20 seconds currently, which is way too short to be useful.

    All they seem to be currently is distractions. As a marine, I generally ignore them.
  • rmbrown09rmbrown09 Join Date: 2012-10-17 Member: 162592Members
    edited March 2013
    bongofish wrote: »
    Mostly they seem like a toy. Their AI is still sketchy, so they are difficult to reliably control.

    The armor effect could be a nice use for them if they stayed attached until they were shot off. I think they only last 20 seconds currently, which is way too short to be useful.

    All they seem to be currently is distractions. As a marine, I generally ignore them.

    Exactly. It's like a child jumping at you for attention and they want to be picked up. You just ignore them until you deal with important things going on around you and then turn them into a pile of goo when you're done.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    only 2 reasons I use them for is temp armor and help me hitting a power node when no bilebomb is available yet.
  • RuntehRunteh Join Date: 2010-06-26 Member: 72163Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    They disappear after 120 seconds and cost 1 res a go. I am guessing this is to prevent them getting stuck in the level so that they die off and prevent server issues, but over time this stacks up.

    The bait ball needs work, personally I don't think you can throw it far enough. Also, the babblers don't seem too aggressive even when marines are near the bait ball. They actually seem to attack better when you spit ball them, but they need to be more 'enthusiastic'.

    Also, when you have them attached to you, you can no longer fire the bait ball!

    Personally I think they should be free, and once a couple of areas are fixed and tweaked they will be fine. As a distraction they are cool (as Hugh mentioned), but I'd like to see them jumping into the paths of grenades if they go by and similar. They look sort of like fleas, so maybe latching onto jetpackers to bring them to the ground would be cool. Why do they need to do damage?

    I'd like to see them as an extension of the gorge, more than a purchasable entity.
  • rmbrown09rmbrown09 Join Date: 2012-10-17 Member: 162592Members
    edited March 2013
    I think they should work like arcs. After you make some (assuming they are faster, healthier etc) bring up your map and right or left click a room to 'a move' them there. attacking anything they meet on the way. They last as long as you want or until you make another set. Sort of like the new swarm host unit in SC2. Semi constant barrage of small units that don't cost team resources. Incites the enemy to not be passive.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    IronHorse wrote: »
    This is what I figured they'd be like:


    And you can make them like that too by adjusting the numbers.

    I found increasing ground speed to 9 (from 5) and minimum jump force to around 12 (from 6 iirc) and doubling their movement interval with the option of increasing their target acquisition range, created almost identical behavior.. although they become quite the threat when this happens.., much more than just a distraction.
  • KindreadKindread Join Date: 2013-03-06 Member: 183744Members
    I have seen babblers clear away mines quicker than the standard spit attack, that is if you do not yet have bile bomb, but other then that I have not seen any real use for them.

    I can understand why they could have been intentionally made weak to prevent it from becoming to powerful a tactic for the early-game combat, but in their current form they are just too useless. I would rather they be another purchasable hive upgrade and become much more violent and damaging. A good example would be the 'Narks' or 'Nerks', whatever they are called from the original Half life. Those little bastards had moderate damage but it was mainly the fact that they would always be right up in your face biting that was their main strength.

    As for the tennis ball, I would prefer it if it had more range and did not send the Move/Attack order to your Babblers until it either hits a target or the first piece of terrain. Many times I have sent them off to attack, but as soon as the ball is fired the Babblers will attempt to move straight to it causing them to real back temporarily making them step backwards and forwards.


    Here are some ideas on how I think the Babblers could have been implemented.

    - Babblers have higher movement speed to always
    keep up with a none-belly sliding gorge.

    - A completed Babbler Egg must be manually 'used' ( press E ) after they are built
    to pop* the egg and spawn the babblers that will then attach/follow whichever
    player 'used' the egg
    allowing for easier babbler assignment.

    - Un-popped eggs act as 'land mines' and are activated by passing marines,
    causing the babblers to spawn and attack.

    - Babblers cannot be guided but instead follow/attach to a player and blindly attack
    any target that comes into close range. After engaging a target the babbler is no
    longer bound to the player, but still counts towards the gorges maximum amount.

    - Babblers can be encouraged with the Spit attack to focus on a specific target from
    any Gorge.

    - Babblers could have a higher resource cost (2-3 maybe) in order to justify smarter
    and more violent AI with higher damage output.

    I really like the idea of babbler eggs working like Landmines and would make for some cool 'OH SHIT' moments in multi-player when you get some sneaky-rambo-marines accidentally triggering all three eggs.



  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I like this idea for babblers.
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    I think they are only there to make cute sounds :P They should be indestructable and deal no damage and spawn randomly at hives ;)

    Or...I was thinking on the Snark as well. They should be useable like an alien weapon...well...just like Snarks. Buy 5-10 ammo for one res (depending on the damage).
    But whatever they will be, I just hope they don't vanish after 2mins, I payed for them! :P
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Great idea, poor execution. Let's just hope they can get fixed. I wouldn't even mind them becoming stronger for a higher p.res cost, though mostly it seems like they need better AI, silly timers removed and bugs fixed.
  • RautapalliRautapalli Join Date: 2010-07-23 Member: 72710Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Oh I wish they were like snarks, those little buggers actually managed to do some damage. The babbler AI is so bad that they can't hit marines at all as long as they keep moving even a little.

    The only time I really use them is if I need to ninja a power node. Drop the babblers first, make them attack the node and start bile bombing.
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    They arent much use at the moment but thats better than them being OP and being abused
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I'd say it's just as bad as them being OP, really. We have enough useless features in the game as it is. (Sentries, camo, xeno, vortex,, etc)
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    I think they are a nice addition to your clog/hydra fortress. Even a few points of extra damage on top of hydras and your spit can mean the difference between a dead marine, or two or three, and a dead gorge.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I've found them good as shotgun trolls
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    I really like the idea of babbler mines. Obviously a buff will probably be coming soonish.
  • ParagonParagon Join Date: 2012-11-06 Member: 167573Members
    They do detonate mines, so it may be good idea to spend 1 or 2 pres to destroy 30 pres worth of mines or so. Still, bile and spit can do the same.
  • MaximumSquidMaximumSquid Join Date: 2010-07-20 Member: 72593Members
    rmbrown09:

    Organized and unorganized ambushes
    2 gorges put 18 of them down just after a doorway and marines would think twice about rushing in to shoot them
    They also aren't that bad in a pinch if I'm running from marines so long as I'm running away on infestation

    You can also use them for extra DPS while trying to stealthily kill a power node if you have the extra time to set it up

    I attach them to fades a lot and you should probably do so too
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Except for the bug where they can block alien's attacks :P
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Xarius wrote: »
    Except for the bug where they can block alien's attacks :P
    t'Be fixed now ;)
  • KuddlyKalliKuddlyKalli Yuggera Country Join Date: 2010-12-23 Member: 75905Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Yep, that bug was fixed. Putting babblers on any lifeform can easily shrug off a point blank shotgun blast or two. They are invaluable.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited March 2013
    Played a scrim recently in which aliens tried to gorge rush us. After taking care of the gorgies and hydras, there was still a whole nest of babblers jumping in my direction, with my back to the wall and 15hp left. I learned to fear the babbler right there and then. :)

    Most of the time they're pretty much harmless cannon fodder though. Could use a small buff (or smarter AI), maybe at increased pres cost if necessary imo.
  • bongofishbongofish Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19893Members
    Runteh wrote: »
    They disappear after 120 seconds and cost 1 res a go. I am guessing this is to prevent them getting stuck in the level so that they die off and prevent server issues, but over time this stacks up.

    The bait ball needs work, personally I don't think you can throw it far enough. Also, the babblers don't seem too aggressive even when marines are near the bait ball. They actually seem to attack better when you spit ball them, but they need to be more 'enthusiastic'.

    Also, when you have them attached to you, you can no longer fire the bait ball!

    Personally I think they should be free, and once a couple of areas are fixed and tweaked they will be fine. As a distraction they are cool (as Hugh mentioned), but I'd like to see them jumping into the paths of grenades if they go by and similar. They look sort of like fleas, so maybe latching onto jetpackers to bring them to the ground would be cool. Why do they need to do damage?

    I'd like to see them as an extension of the gorge, more than a purchasable entity.

    I like this idea. Especially the jetpack part. I also think they would be more interesting as specialized support units, which is what would be their role as an extension of the gorge.
  • CrazyEddieCrazyEddie Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178196Members
    edited March 2013
    rmbrown09 wrote: »
    It's like a child jumping at you for attention and they want to be picked up. You just ignore them until you deal with important things going on around you and then turn them into a pile of goo when you're done.

    I am never hiring you to babysit my kids.
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    Oh, and it would be nice to have the bait ball in an extra menu or so...died two times because I haven't selected spit but the ball. Have seen that at other gorges as well. Training can solve that, but a more intuitive way of commanding them would be nice as well.
  • coldsmokecoldsmoke Join Date: 2004-07-28 Member: 30202Members
    People seem to be confused as to how the babbler AI works. They don't aggressively attack marines next to a baitball. You have to directly hit them with a baitball for the babblers to swarm. I like this skill mechanic but the baitball needs to shoot out with slightly more force I think because it lobs way too slow and any competent marine will dodge it.
  • thefonzthefonz Join Date: 2011-06-22 Member: 105847Members
    edited March 2013
    coldsmoke wrote: »
    People seem to be confused as to how the babbler AI works. They don't aggressively attack marines next to a baitball. You have to directly hit them with a baitball for the babblers to swarm. I like this skill mechanic but the baitball needs to shoot out with slightly more force I think because it lobs way too slow and any competent marine will dodge it.

    solid point if correct.

    Also babbler egg 'mines' would be cool. ie. they dont hatch when fully grown unless the parent gorge presses 'e' or a marine strolls by. might cross the 'asymetry line, but it would be worth it. Fill a hive room with babbler eggs, then wait for it....

    (embedded time doesn't want to work, skip to 1:20 to save time)



    is this played out yet?

    NO.
  • statikgstatikg Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Members
    They seem like a very strong defensive tool for a battle gorge. They can add a huge number of hitpoints at 40 hitpoints per babbler. Thats a ton if you have a couple gorges suicide bileing the power. However the exact mechanics of them defensively is unclear to me. You can have a max of 5 babblers on yourself, but:

    When they get shot/killed do new ones jump on if available?

    When you get shot do they protect you regardless of where you are shot?
  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    TBH, while they are useful now that the "hitting babbler" bug has been fixed, the hidden numbers (2 minute life, 20 second armor duration) is still BS. Goes against everything that UWE says they want in their game and is completely opposite of anything else in the game.

    When I spend pres on something, that something should last until destroyed. And what's the point of spending pres on them, putting them on someone (which in itself is finicky) only to have them decide to hop off the person (and then sit there doing essentially nothing) because the fight lasted longer than 20 seconds or they didn't get into the fight right away?

    Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of babblers and seriously hope that their AI gets a major fix, but atm, I don't feel that they are worth any cost with how useless they are and all of their hidden numbers. I don't feel that they would be worth the hassle for the majority of the game even if they were free.
  • JCDentonJCDenton Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183768Members
    There is a couple directions that Babblers could go. If you want to focus on their offensive capabilities, then I would reccomend this idea.
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128632/babblers-stick-to-marines
    This would be an offensive buff, and increase the threat of Babblers.They're harmless when they are far away, but if that gorge gets a lucky bait ball, you can be screwed.
    If you want to increase their defensive capabilities, then this is an interesting idea
    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/128855/acid-blabbers
    This gives a second reason not to shoot the babblers, as it can deplete your armor. This also gives more bite to flying lerks, as shooting a lerk while it flies over your base can also drop acid.
    You could hypothetically do both, but at that point it'd make more sense to raise the pRes cost.
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