I'm not sure how I feel about Babblers being a defensive buff unit. First of all it's really unintuitive, I don't think that's something anyone would figure out on their own without being told or stumbling upon it. That's not the end of the world but it seems contradictory to the combat pet role you would intuitively expect them to fill. Second I don't think it's as fun as using them to fight, so I don't like the suggestion that it's okay they suck at combat as long as they're useful for latching onto teammates. Unleashing a swarm of anklebiters on your enemies is cool in a mischievous sort of way. Latching them onto an alien so he can run off to fight and presumably be helped by them in some way that isn't clear? Not so much. Gorges can already heal, why do they need another version of buffing teammate health?
I'm fine with the idea of Babblers latching onto teammates, but I think the purpose of it should be to get them into range of marines and not to act as a defense buff.
I think it will help a lot when the Babblers prioritize enemies faster over the bait-ball.
In 241 their movement speed has been buffed, but still it takes them too long to 'think'
When I direct my mini-army around a corner, because there are marines there, they will stand and look at my bait ball first...then wait...turn...move towards marine...stand in front of marine.........bite....
Any half-decent marine will have rattled every babbler down by the time one babbler actually gets a bite in
I don't understand how you guys want to buff the attack on these things.. do you really think it would be fair if a gorge could spend 3 pres on babblers, swarm a single marine with them and possibly kill him while offering zero risk to the gorge? I'm sorry but that is absurd. There is no way any player should be able to massively damage or kill another player with only 3 pres when hiding around the corner.. Marines spend 20 pres on a shotgun and you might not even get 1 kill before you lose it if you get unlucky or are a bad shot.
If you are going to give babblers such potent attacks, how would you feel about marines being able to buy a MAC for 5 pres from a normal armory that has a 360º sentry gun on it, capable of killing or massively weakening a skulk?
Remember people, the gorge is a SUPPORT class. He should not be able to unleash swarms of death for 3 pres while hiding safely in the vent. The babbler attack is just where it should be - almost useless. If anything I could see an argument made that would buff the babblers when using them as a defensive role - such as allowing them to hide inside of a clog wall, and only reveal themselves for a split second as they bite a nearby marine.
I don't understand how you guys want to buff the attack on these things.. do you really think it would be fair if a gorge could spend 3 pres on babblers, swarm a single marine with them and possibly kill him while offering zero risk to the gorge?
Yes? I am spending 3 pres for a temporary attack tool. At the very least it should make killing a marine easier by significantly weakening him, or forcing him to deal with babblers first. Right now if you have more than 20hp and are able to move in next say... 20 seconds, you can safely ignore babblers and proceed to do your primary objective. Like killing a gorge. 3 pres investment should offer at least SOME advantage.
I'm sorry but that is absurd. There is no way any player should be able to massively damage or kill another player with only 3 pres when hiding around the corner..
You mean like mines? 5 pres per mine. Capable of massively damaging or killing another player when the one who set them is on the other side of map. Not limited to support class and available to every marine. Or heck look at gorge again. Hydra? 3pres per Hydra. Capable of massively damage or kill another player if he is stupid enough to just stand there.
Marines spend 20 pres on a shotgun and you might not even get 1 kill before you lose it if you get unlucky or are a bad shot.
You are comparing apples and rabbits. Also the argument itself is ridiculous. Yes, I might spend 20 pres on shotgun and might not even get 1 kill. I can also spend 75 pres on Onos and not get even 1 kill if I suck/am unlucky enough. And even after possible buff, I can spend 3/6/9/60 pres on babblers and not even get one kill, Your point?
If you are going to give babblers such potent attacks, how would you feel about marines being able to buy a MAC for 5 pres from a normal armory that has a 360º sentry gun on it, capable of killing or massively weakening a skulk?
About as I feel right now, whenever I trigger a mine.
Remember people, the gorge is a SUPPORT class. He should not be able to unleash swarms of death for 3 pres while hiding safely in the vent. The babbler attack is just where it should be - almost useless.
What is a point of something that is almost useless? And why a Support class should not be able to defend itself from a single attacker when they invest 3 pres to specifically have advantage in the encounter?
If anything I could see an argument made that would buff the babblers when using them as a defensive role - such as allowing them to hide inside of a clog wall, and only reveal themselves for a split second as they bite a nearby marine.
What is a point of having babblers as an independent remote controlled bots,when they are useless as remote controlled bots and are used only as upgrade to existing entities? Why not having clog shield to put on other aliens and upgrade to spiky clogs while removing babblers then? Besides, if babblers were actually somewhat dangerous you could easily make them do this role by simply throwing a pheromone ball over clog wall,
I think they are hard coded to have only one attack a given marine at a time. At least I have yet to see them actually swarm anyone, as is they just mill around and take turns doing 15 dmg to the marine.
I agree that as an offensive option, Babblers fall short and aren't worth the effort. In fact I've stopped building them until mid-late game when I can just toss them onto a Fade or Onos while they attack some key point. Even then it's a bit discouraging knowing that regardless of what happens, they'll probably only last long enough for a single attack.
I don't understand how you guys want to buff the attack on these things.. do you really think it would be fair if a gorge could spend 3 pres on babblers, swarm a single marine with them and possibly kill him while offering zero risk to the gorge?
Yes? I am spending 3 pres for a temporary attack tool. At the very least it should make killing a marine easier by significantly weakening him, or forcing him to deal with babblers first. Right now if you have more than 20hp and are able to move in next say... 20 seconds, you can safely ignore babblers and proceed to do your primary objective. Like killing a gorge. 3 pres investment should offer at least SOME advantage.
I'm sorry but that is absurd. There is no way any player should be able to massively damage or kill another player with only 3 pres when hiding around the corner..
You mean like mines? 5 pres per mine. Capable of massively damaging or killing another player when the one who set them is on the other side of map. Not limited to support class and available to every marine. Or heck look at gorge again. Hydra? 3pres per Hydra. Capable of massively damage or kill another player if he is stupid enough to just stand there.
Marines spend 20 pres on a shotgun and you might not even get 1 kill before you lose it if you get unlucky or are a bad shot.
You are comparing apples and rabbits. Also the argument itself is ridiculous. Yes, I might spend 20 pres on shotgun and might not even get 1 kill. I can also spend 75 pres on Onos and not get even 1 kill if I suck/am unlucky enough. And even after possible buff, I can spend 3/6/9/60 pres on babblers and not even get one kill, Your point?
If you are going to give babblers such potent attacks, how would you feel about marines being able to buy a MAC for 5 pres from a normal armory that has a 360º sentry gun on it, capable of killing or massively weakening a skulk?
About as I feel right now, whenever I trigger a mine.
Remember people, the gorge is a SUPPORT class. He should not be able to unleash swarms of death for 3 pres while hiding safely in the vent. The babbler attack is just where it should be - almost useless.
What is a point of something that is almost useless? And why a Support class should not be able to defend itself from a single attacker when they invest 3 pres to specifically have advantage in the encounter?
If anything I could see an argument made that would buff the babblers when using them as a defensive role - such as allowing them to hide inside of a clog wall, and only reveal themselves for a split second as they bite a nearby marine.
What is a point of having babblers as an independent remote controlled bots,when they are useless as remote controlled bots and are used only as upgrade to existing entities? Why not having clog shield to put on other aliens and upgrade to spiky clogs while removing babblers then? Besides, if babblers were actually somewhat dangerous you could easily make them do this role by simply throwing a pheromone ball over clog wall,
If babblers cost 15 pres, I would understand your point more. But they do not, they cost 3 pres and therefore they should not be able to do as much damage as even 1 mine. By the way, I'm not sure if you noticed but mines can't move, or chase an alien, or swarm him. A marine can't wear a mine on his back. A marine has to buy 15 pres for 3 mines making the investment a much bigger decision. Mines can easily be taken out by a lerk or gorge. 1 mine won't kill a skulk a lot of the time especially if he has carapace, you have to walk directly over it to die. Oh and by the way, the commander has to research mines and build an armory for a marine to buy them.
So your comparison of a passive defense tactic the marines have which cost 15 pres + tres to resarch, to a active offense unit the gorge can buy for 3 pres with no tres invested.. and you somehow think they two should be equally effective? One hydra costs 3 pres and it is just about as effective as 3 pres of babblers - so if you ask me I think their attack power is right where it should be.
In response to "what is the point of having a remote controlled bot.." the point is you can direct them to wherever you want, they are mobile vs a mine which is immobile. That is a HUGE advantage right there. While I agree they should be more useful than they are now, I think buffing the attack is absolutely the wrong way to do it. It would be really stupid if 1 gorge could hold off 4-5 marines with a clog wall, 3 hydras and 3 babbler eggs.. the gorge is as I said, a support class, he is not tank, he should not be able to spawn a swarm of highly potent bite bugs, have 3 defensive spike towers, a protective wall, a self healing spray, etc that is too much power for a unit that only costs 10 pres to evolve to.
You have to consider the res spent on this stuff when weighing its effectiveness! Yes babblers suck but they cost 3 pres!! If you want them to be faster , smarter, and be able to take a poor-aim marine down they need to cost 15-20 pres for 3 eggs.
I think there are two main, current, fine, components of babbler mechanics: 1) They are a distraction for Marines, either visually, or with spent ammunition (but Marines are only going to shoot them if they pose some sort of threat. I'll let everyone else decide what that threat should be). 2) Additional armour when they are stuck to you, or your team mates, or even structures. That's it. That's all there really needs to be without dramatically upsetting the balance of the game. Behavioural distraction and additional body armour. It's fine. It's not complicated. Maybe needs a few minor tweaks, but it's essentially fine.
All these comments like "I think babblers should do x and x with x happening to x and x getting x in his face going all x on x are pretty much a waste of effort writing and effort reading.
My point: I like the idea (distraction, armour), don't like the fact that they auto-die and fall off after set times, and don't like the res cost for their shabby effectiveness. Though, I do enjoy sticking babblers to my team-mate Skulks and sending them off into the big wide dangerous Marine world and saying, "My babies will protect you! Go with confidence, Skulks, go with force and let ye wrath envelope yon Marines until they dieth a miserable deayth!".
Babblers should primarily be distractions in combat, and that's fine. Problem is they're not going to distract anybody when they pose no threat even when ignored. They should be easy to kill, but pose some sort of threat if left alone. Otherwise providing babbler support during a skulk rush is just a waste of my time.
Okay so apparently some people took my original post completely out of context, and starting assuming that I meant Babbler cost, in PR, would stay the same. I suppose I thought it was implied that such a radical change to Babblers (becoming a 2-Hive upgrade and all) meant that nothing was set in stone about the new iteration (except that it would be significantly more powerful than before), but apparently people have already decided it will cost the same PR, so congratulations on that.
Though to be fair, some of your comparisons were rather amusing. You compared the 3 Rez Babblers to a 20 Rez Shotgun, but conveniently forgot to mention that Shotguns last forever until you lose them, allies can pick them up, and they kill Skulks in one hit (Where a swarm of Babblers would never kill a full HP Marine unless he was AFK). You also forgot to mention the 10 Resources it costs to become a GORGE in the first place, which means three uses of full Babblers is basically the equivalent to a Shotgun, and believe me, much less useful.
To clear it up, I'm not super-concerned with the PR costs of the proposed Babblers, I'm more concerned that they serve an actual offensive function in the game. The people complaining that they shouldn't be difficult to deal with baffle me. It's a 2-Hive Upgrade. It's just like if the Alien Commander rushes Blink, or Spores, or Camoflauge. Don't the Marines have to respond to those upgrades accordingly? I mean what happens when the enemy is running around with 3 Fades upgraded with Blink, and your team is scattered with no shotguns or coordination? You'll probably lose the game very quickly. The idea with Babblers is not that different. Just like any major Alien upgrade, the enemy team has to deal with it. If the Alien Com rushes Babblers, the Marines can counter by researching Flame Throwers or Grenade Launchers, which would shut them down hard. Or they can just stick together and/or fight in open areas where the Babblers can be picked off and/or kited.
It seems like some people in this thread don't think the Marines should be adversely affected AT ALL by Babblers. But if you don't have to react to them (at this point, you don't), then they shouldn't even be in the game. They're just a waste of resources.
Edit: And aren't people already complaining about the significant winrate advantage Marines have over Aliens since the "Gorgeous" Patch? Adding a new toy to the Alien's arsenal which gives them more options, and forces the Marines to adapt new counters seems like a step in the right direction to me...
If babblers cost 15 pres, I would understand your point more. But they do not, they cost 3 pres and therefore they should not be able to do as much damage as even 1 mine. By the way, I'm not sure if you noticed but mines can't move, or chase an alien, or swarm him. A marine can't wear a mine on his back. A marine has to buy 15 pres for 3 mines making the investment a much bigger decision. Mines can easily be taken out by a lerk or gorge. 1 mine won't kill a skulk a lot of the time especially if he has carapace, you have to walk directly over it to die. Oh and by the way, the commander has to research mines and build an armory for a marine to buy them.
So your comparison of a passive defense tactic the marines have which cost 15 pres + tres to resarch, to a active offense unit the gorge can buy for 3 pres with no tres invested.. and you somehow think they two should be equally effective? One hydra costs 3 pres and it is just about as effective as 3 pres of babblers - so if you ask me I think their attack power is right where it should be.
This is taking the discussion on the wrong track, which is partly my fault as well. I did not intent to compare mines to babblers, as they are, as you already said, completely different things. I just wanted to point out (a bit smugly, I admit), that the whole "its absurd to be able to pay small amount of pres and be able seriously damage or kill enemy player around a corner" scenario already frequently happens with mines.
(I still would like to point out that you get 3 mines for 15 pres, giving you three chances to kill skulk or skulks and that babblers actually cost 13 pres, as you HAVE to evolve to gorge first, which costs 10 pres, unlike mines which can be bought by any marine. But fell free to disregard this as it is inconsequential to overall discussion which is to assess a worthiness of babblers, and not to compare them to mines)
In response to "what is the point of having a remote controlled bot.." the point is you can direct them to wherever you want, they are mobile vs a mine which is immobile. That is a HUGE advantage right there
But what will they do ONCE you direct them wherever you want them? Would you rather have a mine (I know, I KNOW! Sorry!) that would be able to chase skulks but would do 10 damage or one that stays in place but can kill or at least heavily damage one?
While I agree they should be more useful than they are now, I think buffing the attack is absolutely the wrong way to do it.
I think you misunderstood my argument somewhat. Babblers need a buff to their "threat level". That is self-evident, as their currently pose absolutely no threat to anything. That can be increased by increasing their attack, but also tweaking/improving their AI, adding status effects on their attack etc... To put it simply, a marine should be forced to react in some meaningful way when you unleash 3 pres worth of babblers on him. And no, running past/through babblers while ignoring them completely does not count.
It would be really stupid if 1 gorge could hold off 4-5 marines with a clog wall, 3 hydras and 3 babbler eggs.. the gorge is as I said, a support class, he is not tank, he should not be able to spawn a swarm of highly potent bite bugs, have 3 defensive spike towers, a protective wall, a self healing spray, etc that is too much power for a unit that only costs 10 pres to evolve to.
Gorge is already able to hold off a number of marines (the exact number depends on skill of the marines and the gorge). In fact the ability to hold an area against a superior force is roughly one of the three roles gorge is supposed to be able to perform( the other two are healing/speeding the growth of lifeforms and buildings and bilebomb respectively). Why couldn't babblers help with that? Besides did not you even suggest a buff to babblers that would help them to repel marines attacking the glorious gorge fort in your last post?
You have to consider the res spent on this stuff when weighing its effectiveness! Yes babblers suck but they cost 3 pres!! If you want them to be faster , smarter, and be able to take a poor-aim marine down they need to cost 15-20 pres for 3 eggs.
Babblers suck even for the meager expectation their low cost evokes. They would be completely underwhelming even if they were free. After all, Clogs are far more useful than Babblers and those are simply big dumb clumps of goo.
So far the only two uses I found for babblers are: the babbler shield, which is useful, but somewhat hard and unreliable to pull off without a disproportionate amount of communication for such a simple feature and if you need attack a building before second hive and bilebomb is up. Still you are pretty much sacrificing 3 pres to take down a single building slightly faster, and I suspect that simply plopping a hydra next to me would help just as much or more.
I think that babblers should be just as useless as they are now, but with an upgrade on second hive that basically turns them into snarks. They could be bought in one big ball for 5 res, wouldn't time out, and would actually be useful. They wouldn't swarm early game marines, but they wouldn't be useless, either.
The timing out bit is, frankly, complete bull. If I paid money for the little buggers, the least they can do is stick with me until they get shot. This is something that NEEDS to change.
Now, as for buffing babblers - honestly, I would want this if possible, even if it meant a PRes cost increase. At this point, they aren't even worth the time spent hatching them unless you stick them on a skulk early game, and even then they're of dubious value as they jump off and gently nibble the toes of the marine currently filling your face with lead. Turn them into a tier-2 power you have to research (maybe at the same time as tunnels), make them cost more, and then make them an actual threat to marines rather than glorified shields.
I think Babblers should be a combination of distraction and area denial (sort of like Hydra's are). They should not be able to outrun a marine but if a marine gets close to them then they can jump on the marine and attack him and do some damage. If the marine is too far away from the Babblers I think they should act as they do now (basically ignoring the marine) but if he attempts to run by or near them then they will attack him. It would also make a good ambush tactic for the Gorge - the Gorge could could have the Babblers queued up on his back and when a marine comes around a corner the Gorge could hurl the bait ball on the marine, covering him in alien stink, and the Babblers will leap off the Gorge and attack the marine. If the marine runs back the Babblers will give chase for a while but never be able to catch him if he keeps running. If the Babblers manage to attack I think they should do a reasonable amount of damage, about the same as a Hydra. If a bunch of Babblers are attacking a marine then it should do an equivalent amount of damage that one mine does to an alien, as they are pretty close in cost (3 pres for Babblers, and 5 pres for one mine).
As it is now, I just ignore Babblers and run right by them and I don't think I've ever been attacked by one. They're cute and funny but never a threat.
I don't understand how you guys want to buff the attack on these things.. do you really think it would be fair if a gorge could spend 3 pres on babblers, swarm a single marine with them and possibly kill him while offering zero risk to the gorge? I'm sorry but that is absurd. There is no way any player should be able to massively damage or kill another player with only 3 pres when hiding around the corner.. Marines spend 20 pres on a shotgun and you might not even get 1 kill before you lose it if you get unlucky or are a bad shot.
The issue isn't really that babblers don't do enough, its that they don't do anything.
Imagine if parasite was only for damage. It didn't reveal the marine it hit, it just did 9 damage (haha) and that was the end of it. I think many people would complain that "parasite is completely useless". Now there would be the perfectly valid argument that the skulk is mainly melee and does a lot of melee damage and parasite is essentially free and it wouldn't be reasonable to expect it to do a lot more than 9 damage a hit. But that wouldn't stop the ability from being largely useless. Parasite wouldn't require direct offensive capabilities, it would require utility, an indirect contributor to combat.
In the same way, babblers require some form of utility. Something that they can do that doesn't directly affect combat. Like, for a random example, imagine if attaching a certain number of babblers to a structure deactivated it. This wouldn't help the gorge in combat in any way, and it wouldn't affect marines directly at all, but it would give a gorge a few reasons to drop them in some cases.
finally decided, they should be removed as a gorge ability, and instead reverted to their orginal purpose of a commander triggered ability for crags. So much easier, commander clicks crag, babblers come out and attack any marines nearby before dying off after a few minutes. make them more deadly
also thinking the same for gorge tunnels, gorges trolling the alien team by placing gorge tunnels from close to marine base to laien hive has been seen by me a few times all marines come throguh gorge tunnel and drop it in a matter of seconds.
Imo the bait ball is pretty lame, its hard to actually use it to get it on target. So i thought, maybe something like parasite should be used instead? then i thought, why not make parasite lure in babblers to make it more useful. Then i thought, buff babblers and make parasite lure them in. It just might work.
Babblers are terrible even after this latest speed buff that was supposed to fix them. I can't for the life of me figure out why they were added, it just doesn't make any sense for there to be something so completely useless. Sorry guys, but babblers = fail, and I'm not even sure what can be done about it. Making them free and without a timeout like other people have said would be a start, but even then I'd only just choose to use them.
The idea to make them come from crags, as originally intended (?), makes a lot of sense and is an example of how these visually effective entities can become mechanically effective. The problem with babblers is how mobile they are, and therefore they cannot be made too effective as you can't have every game ending with a mass gorge babbler rush.
However, attaching babblers to an immobile structure, and making them require an expensive upgrade to be used, means that they can be made far more effective in whichever role is chosen for them.
Personally, I wouldn't like to see babblers come rushing out of crags to attack marines. This doesn't fit well with the overarching idea behind the crag path. Instead, I think it would be interesting to see babblers exclusively attach themselves to lifeforms and structures, and be made more effective at shielding players from damage.
Yep I agree that they are kind of useless. tbh, I never get them as gorge because why should I spend 3 res on tome things that will disappear after 2 minutes anyway?
On top of that they are really useless.
Really Cool feature but without any use gameplaywise...
yea how about babblers doing no damage but they attach themselves to marines obscuring vision and slowing them down and other marines need to shoot the babblers off. more like parasites they could also act like being parasited.
Babblers should primarily be distractions in combat, and that's fine. Problem is they're not going to distract anybody when they pose no threat even when ignored.
What about getting rid of bait ball entirely and just have the babblers attack whatever the gorge spits at? This would remove the need for babblers to have a target selection system, and would give the gorge more control. He could switch targets, go after structures, or he could target a friendly. The bait ball makes the babbles needlessly complex imho. Let gorge spit be a 'marker' for the babblers, and I think we'll find they won't be so underwhelming.
Agreed, Babblers should go for the target the Gorge attacks, or if he hits multiple targets (with Bile Bomb and such), they should go for the lowest Marine.
I don't really see the point on putting them as a Crag ability personally. Crags are usually used defensively, and are usually in the back. I suppose Babblers offer that extra line of defense, but in all honesty the Aliens already have plenty of defensive options as it is. I think right now where they're suffering is offensive options, especially before Fades come into play.
Babblers should primarily be distractions in combat, and that's fine. Problem is they're not going to distract anybody when they pose no threat even when ignored.
What about getting rid of bait ball entirely and just have the babblers attack whatever the gorge spits at? This would remove the need for babblers to have a target selection system, and would give the gorge more control. He could switch targets, go after structures, or he could target a friendly. The bait ball makes the babbles needlessly complex imho. Let gorge spit be a 'marker' for the babblers, and I think we'll find they won't be so underwhelming.
I actually quite like this idea. Similar to the hydra targeting mechanic. It would make them a bit more interesting as the targeting wouldn't take time away from your spit damage time.
I still think the babblers should latch on to the marines and do a small amount of damage over time, requiring the marines to shoot them off of eachother. Would add more team play mechanics, and would make the gorge dangerous in 1v1s again
I still think the babblers should latch on to the marines and do a small amount of damage over time, requiring the marines to shoot them off of eachother. Would add more team play mechanics, and would make the gorge dangerous in 1v1s again
Funny you should mention that... Charlie wanted to replace parasite in NS2, and this was one of the ideas he considered (skulk grapple) but from what I understand they ditched it since it would have been hard to get the mechanic to work and they felt it would be annoying to be a marine with an enemy you couldn't get off you.
-They're currently not worth the 3 res. I've seen and used them alot, other than looking cute and making me feel like a gorge general they're not of much use. I would -
-Keep their stats (health/damage) as it is now
-make the 9 spawn from the same egg
-1 res for all 9 instead of 3 res
-increase egg gestation time 2X
-make their AI react quicker. As of now, when you lob the bait ball near a marine they go towards it and just... look at it. Then a few seconds later, if they're not dead already, they might move in the marines direction. They should instantly go for marines/structures within the bait balls radius.
This should make them a nice little distraction, while still being weak.
I don't understand how you guys want to buff the attack on these things.. do you really think it would be fair if a gorge could spend 3 pres on babblers, swarm a single marine with them and possibly kill him while offering zero risk to the gorge? I'm sorry but that is absurd.
You make them more useful and increase their cost, nothing absurd about that. Right now, its more effective to attach them to yourself and gorge spit the marine than to actually have the babblers attack the marine directly.
I don't have a big problem with that, but its completely unintuitive for new players. Babblers look, sound, and act like a swarm of insects, such that it makes the most sense to try to use them that way.
Comments
I'm fine with the idea of Babblers latching onto teammates, but I think the purpose of it should be to get them into range of marines and not to act as a defense buff.
In 241 their movement speed has been buffed, but still it takes them too long to 'think'
When I direct my mini-army around a corner, because there are marines there, they will stand and look at my bait ball first...then wait...turn...move towards marine...stand in front of marine.........bite....
Any half-decent marine will have rattled every babbler down by the time one babbler actually gets a bite in
If you are going to give babblers such potent attacks, how would you feel about marines being able to buy a MAC for 5 pres from a normal armory that has a 360º sentry gun on it, capable of killing or massively weakening a skulk?
Remember people, the gorge is a SUPPORT class. He should not be able to unleash swarms of death for 3 pres while hiding safely in the vent. The babbler attack is just where it should be - almost useless. If anything I could see an argument made that would buff the babblers when using them as a defensive role - such as allowing them to hide inside of a clog wall, and only reveal themselves for a split second as they bite a nearby marine.
Yes? I am spending 3 pres for a temporary attack tool. At the very least it should make killing a marine easier by significantly weakening him, or forcing him to deal with babblers first. Right now if you have more than 20hp and are able to move in next say... 20 seconds, you can safely ignore babblers and proceed to do your primary objective. Like killing a gorge. 3 pres investment should offer at least SOME advantage.
You mean like mines? 5 pres per mine. Capable of massively damaging or killing another player when the one who set them is on the other side of map. Not limited to support class and available to every marine. Or heck look at gorge again. Hydra? 3pres per Hydra. Capable of massively damage or kill another player if he is stupid enough to just stand there.
You are comparing apples and rabbits. Also the argument itself is ridiculous. Yes, I might spend 20 pres on shotgun and might not even get 1 kill. I can also spend 75 pres on Onos and not get even 1 kill if I suck/am unlucky enough. And even after possible buff, I can spend 3/6/9/60 pres on babblers and not even get one kill, Your point?
About as I feel right now, whenever I trigger a mine.
What is a point of something that is almost useless? And why a Support class should not be able to defend itself from a single attacker when they invest 3 pres to specifically have advantage in the encounter?
What is a point of having babblers as an independent remote controlled bots,when they are useless as remote controlled bots and are used only as upgrade to existing entities? Why not having clog shield to put on other aliens and upgrade to spiky clogs while removing babblers then? Besides, if babblers were actually somewhat dangerous you could easily make them do this role by simply throwing a pheromone ball over clog wall,
If babblers cost 15 pres, I would understand your point more. But they do not, they cost 3 pres and therefore they should not be able to do as much damage as even 1 mine. By the way, I'm not sure if you noticed but mines can't move, or chase an alien, or swarm him. A marine can't wear a mine on his back. A marine has to buy 15 pres for 3 mines making the investment a much bigger decision. Mines can easily be taken out by a lerk or gorge. 1 mine won't kill a skulk a lot of the time especially if he has carapace, you have to walk directly over it to die. Oh and by the way, the commander has to research mines and build an armory for a marine to buy them.
So your comparison of a passive defense tactic the marines have which cost 15 pres + tres to resarch, to a active offense unit the gorge can buy for 3 pres with no tres invested.. and you somehow think they two should be equally effective? One hydra costs 3 pres and it is just about as effective as 3 pres of babblers - so if you ask me I think their attack power is right where it should be.
In response to "what is the point of having a remote controlled bot.." the point is you can direct them to wherever you want, they are mobile vs a mine which is immobile. That is a HUGE advantage right there. While I agree they should be more useful than they are now, I think buffing the attack is absolutely the wrong way to do it. It would be really stupid if 1 gorge could hold off 4-5 marines with a clog wall, 3 hydras and 3 babbler eggs.. the gorge is as I said, a support class, he is not tank, he should not be able to spawn a swarm of highly potent bite bugs, have 3 defensive spike towers, a protective wall, a self healing spray, etc that is too much power for a unit that only costs 10 pres to evolve to.
You have to consider the res spent on this stuff when weighing its effectiveness! Yes babblers suck but they cost 3 pres!! If you want them to be faster , smarter, and be able to take a poor-aim marine down they need to cost 15-20 pres for 3 eggs.
All these comments like "I think babblers should do x and x with x happening to x and x getting x in his face going all x on x are pretty much a waste of effort writing and effort reading.
My point: I like the idea (distraction, armour), don't like the fact that they auto-die and fall off after set times, and don't like the res cost for their shabby effectiveness. Though, I do enjoy sticking babblers to my team-mate Skulks and sending them off into the big wide dangerous Marine world and saying, "My babies will protect you! Go with confidence, Skulks, go with force and let ye wrath envelope yon Marines until they dieth a miserable deayth!".
Though to be fair, some of your comparisons were rather amusing. You compared the 3 Rez Babblers to a 20 Rez Shotgun, but conveniently forgot to mention that Shotguns last forever until you lose them, allies can pick them up, and they kill Skulks in one hit (Where a swarm of Babblers would never kill a full HP Marine unless he was AFK). You also forgot to mention the 10 Resources it costs to become a GORGE in the first place, which means three uses of full Babblers is basically the equivalent to a Shotgun, and believe me, much less useful.
To clear it up, I'm not super-concerned with the PR costs of the proposed Babblers, I'm more concerned that they serve an actual offensive function in the game. The people complaining that they shouldn't be difficult to deal with baffle me. It's a 2-Hive Upgrade. It's just like if the Alien Commander rushes Blink, or Spores, or Camoflauge. Don't the Marines have to respond to those upgrades accordingly? I mean what happens when the enemy is running around with 3 Fades upgraded with Blink, and your team is scattered with no shotguns or coordination? You'll probably lose the game very quickly. The idea with Babblers is not that different. Just like any major Alien upgrade, the enemy team has to deal with it. If the Alien Com rushes Babblers, the Marines can counter by researching Flame Throwers or Grenade Launchers, which would shut them down hard. Or they can just stick together and/or fight in open areas where the Babblers can be picked off and/or kited.
It seems like some people in this thread don't think the Marines should be adversely affected AT ALL by Babblers. But if you don't have to react to them (at this point, you don't), then they shouldn't even be in the game. They're just a waste of resources.
Edit: And aren't people already complaining about the significant winrate advantage Marines have over Aliens since the "Gorgeous" Patch? Adding a new toy to the Alien's arsenal which gives them more options, and forces the Marines to adapt new counters seems like a step in the right direction to me...
This is taking the discussion on the wrong track, which is partly my fault as well. I did not intent to compare mines to babblers, as they are, as you already said, completely different things. I just wanted to point out (a bit smugly, I admit), that the whole "its absurd to be able to pay small amount of pres and be able seriously damage or kill enemy player around a corner" scenario already frequently happens with mines.
(I still would like to point out that you get 3 mines for 15 pres, giving you three chances to kill skulk or skulks and that babblers actually cost 13 pres, as you HAVE to evolve to gorge first, which costs 10 pres, unlike mines which can be bought by any marine. But fell free to disregard this as it is inconsequential to overall discussion which is to assess a worthiness of babblers, and not to compare them to mines)
But what will they do ONCE you direct them wherever you want them? Would you rather have a mine (I know, I KNOW! Sorry!) that would be able to chase skulks but would do 10 damage or one that stays in place but can kill or at least heavily damage one?
I think you misunderstood my argument somewhat. Babblers need a buff to their "threat level". That is self-evident, as their currently pose absolutely no threat to anything. That can be increased by increasing their attack, but also tweaking/improving their AI, adding status effects on their attack etc... To put it simply, a marine should be forced to react in some meaningful way when you unleash 3 pres worth of babblers on him. And no, running past/through babblers while ignoring them completely does not count.
Gorge is already able to hold off a number of marines (the exact number depends on skill of the marines and the gorge). In fact the ability to hold an area against a superior force is roughly one of the three roles gorge is supposed to be able to perform( the other two are healing/speeding the growth of lifeforms and buildings and bilebomb respectively). Why couldn't babblers help with that? Besides did not you even suggest a buff to babblers that would help them to repel marines attacking the glorious gorge fort in your last post?
Babblers suck even for the meager expectation their low cost evokes. They would be completely underwhelming even if they were free. After all, Clogs are far more useful than Babblers and those are simply big dumb clumps of goo.
So far the only two uses I found for babblers are: the babbler shield, which is useful, but somewhat hard and unreliable to pull off without a disproportionate amount of communication for such a simple feature and if you need attack a building before second hive and bilebomb is up. Still you are pretty much sacrificing 3 pres to take down a single building slightly faster, and I suspect that simply plopping a hydra next to me would help just as much or more.
Now, as for buffing babblers - honestly, I would want this if possible, even if it meant a PRes cost increase. At this point, they aren't even worth the time spent hatching them unless you stick them on a skulk early game, and even then they're of dubious value as they jump off and gently nibble the toes of the marine currently filling your face with lead. Turn them into a tier-2 power you have to research (maybe at the same time as tunnels), make them cost more, and then make them an actual threat to marines rather than glorified shields.
As it is now, I just ignore Babblers and run right by them and I don't think I've ever been attacked by one. They're cute and funny but never a threat.
The issue isn't really that babblers don't do enough, its that they don't do anything.
Imagine if parasite was only for damage. It didn't reveal the marine it hit, it just did 9 damage (haha) and that was the end of it. I think many people would complain that "parasite is completely useless". Now there would be the perfectly valid argument that the skulk is mainly melee and does a lot of melee damage and parasite is essentially free and it wouldn't be reasonable to expect it to do a lot more than 9 damage a hit. But that wouldn't stop the ability from being largely useless. Parasite wouldn't require direct offensive capabilities, it would require utility, an indirect contributor to combat.
In the same way, babblers require some form of utility. Something that they can do that doesn't directly affect combat. Like, for a random example, imagine if attaching a certain number of babblers to a structure deactivated it. This wouldn't help the gorge in combat in any way, and it wouldn't affect marines directly at all, but it would give a gorge a few reasons to drop them in some cases.
also thinking the same for gorge tunnels, gorges trolling the alien team by placing gorge tunnels from close to marine base to laien hive has been seen by me a few times all marines come throguh gorge tunnel and drop it in a matter of seconds.
The idea to make them come from crags, as originally intended (?), makes a lot of sense and is an example of how these visually effective entities can become mechanically effective. The problem with babblers is how mobile they are, and therefore they cannot be made too effective as you can't have every game ending with a mass gorge babbler rush.
However, attaching babblers to an immobile structure, and making them require an expensive upgrade to be used, means that they can be made far more effective in whichever role is chosen for them.
Personally, I wouldn't like to see babblers come rushing out of crags to attack marines. This doesn't fit well with the overarching idea behind the crag path. Instead, I think it would be interesting to see babblers exclusively attach themselves to lifeforms and structures, and be made more effective at shielding players from damage.
On top of that they are really useless.
Really Cool feature but without any use gameplaywise...
I don't really see the point on putting them as a Crag ability personally. Crags are usually used defensively, and are usually in the back. I suppose Babblers offer that extra line of defense, but in all honesty the Aliens already have plenty of defensive options as it is. I think right now where they're suffering is offensive options, especially before Fades come into play.
I actually quite like this idea. Similar to the hydra targeting mechanic. It would make them a bit more interesting as the targeting wouldn't take time away from your spit damage time.
-They're currently not worth the 3 res. I've seen and used them alot, other than looking cute and making me feel like a gorge general they're not of much use. I would -
-Keep their stats (health/damage) as it is now
-make the 9 spawn from the same egg
-1 res for all 9 instead of 3 res
-increase egg gestation time 2X
-make their AI react quicker. As of now, when you lob the bait ball near a marine they go towards it and just... look at it. Then a few seconds later, if they're not dead already, they might move in the marines direction. They should instantly go for marines/structures within the bait balls radius.
This should make them a nice little distraction, while still being weak.
I don't have a big problem with that, but its completely unintuitive for new players. Babblers look, sound, and act like a swarm of insects, such that it makes the most sense to try to use them that way.