Wtf is wrong with camo

135

Comments

  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    edited March 2013
    I think many people, when coming up with potential camouflage alternatives, are concentrating too much on the skulk.

    While it would be nice if the skulk could use camouflage lets take a look at the other paths. Skulks use carapace from crag (not regen), and celerity from shift (not adrenaline). This obviously isn't true 100% of the time, but its the typical case.

    Since silence is already highly effective for the skulk, it may not be necessary for camouflage to be all that good for it as well.
    In any case, what is of extreme important is that camouflage has a use in the late game.
  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    what is of extreme important is that camouflage has a use in the late game.

    Tying it to silence will help with that, since camo on an onos or fade (even lerk for that matter) is a terrible upgrade choice since you'll be heard 2-3 rooms away.
  • UnderwhelmedUnderwhelmed DemoDetective #?! Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58026Members, Constellation
    edited March 2013
    Bacillus wrote: »
    I think design wise UWE is drawing the line on kind of 'passive' trigger that requires no additional buttons pressed or so. However, as you mentioned, we've already got one now and it's not exactly generating interesting gameplay.

    All in all, I don't really know. Cloak is one of those upgrades I wouldn't put into the game in the first place unless I have a damn solid idea on how it blends in properly and positively contributes to the gameplay.
    I've never liked cloaking myself, as far as I can tell it's another one of those ideas Flayra is in love with, like power nodes and the Khammander. But as long as it's here to stay, might as well try to make the best out of it.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Cloak would be great if it functioned like the infiltrator cloak in planetside 2 or something, where you can move at full speed, just not attack.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Cloak would be great if it functioned like the infiltrator cloak in planetside 2 or something, where you can move at full speed, just not attack.
    I think this is both viable and needed with the new shaders. Skulk survivability has always been about movement such that I never liked that camo forced you to basically slow down to use it.
  • CiroCiro Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178392Members
    SeeVee wrote: »
    Ciro wrote: »
    despair wrote: »
    before when you evolved into camo it made u walk when u move, keeping u camo'd

    now it doesn't do that. ok so i press shift and it makes me walk, yet when i walk marines can still see me?

    wtf did they do to camo

    Made it terrible mechanically (game wise), but beautiful to look at. The fade out/in effect is extremely well done.

    It can be made to work, but it's not very fun; might as well not use it.

    It's all in how you use it. I played 12 games straight on aliens the other night and camo was an excellent tool to use but it needed to be tactfully done. Aliens shouldn't be able to run full speed at 100% inviso, that is just nonsense. Be more aware of your surroundings and you won't get killed. Worked for me and a few of my friends. We were extremely successful at not getting seen by marines and were able to take out many as well. I feel the camo is in a great spot right now.

    Your advice is appreciated. I do not have an issue with getting kills or surviving with current camo. My issue is fun factor and overall satisfaction. I can get a majority of camo kills without it and it is much more satisfying. The new camo offers very little.

    As a marine, it's easy to spot and use against the aliens. I didn't have an issue killing Skulks before the patches and now it's even easier; full settings, no mods.

    But, if it gets players to return and enjoy themselves more, I guess it's good.
  • CimCim Join Date: 2012-02-25 Member: 147403Members
    edited March 2013
    The new camo is might not be as easy to use as the old one... but overall, I'd say it's still more fun for both teams.

    The only change I'd want to see done to it would be to not have it decloak on damage. Don't get why that's there at the moment, the audio of getting hurt and green blood decal would be enough. Overall it would be a very slight buff and also make it a bit more interesting.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    |strofix| wrote: »
    I think many people, when coming up with potential camouflage alternatives, are concentrating too much on the skulk.

    While it would be nice if the skulk could use camouflage lets take a look at the other paths. Skulks use carapace from crag (not regen), and celerity from shift (not adrenaline). This obviously isn't true 100% of the time, but its the typical case.

    Since silence is already highly effective for the skulk, it may not be necessary for camouflage to be all that good for it as well.
    In any case, what is of extreme important is that camouflage has a use in the late game.

    I can't possibly imagine a form of camo that is useful to higher lifeforms and not skulks. Besides, lopsided upgrade choices are a problem, not something to be encouraged.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited March 2013
    Zek wrote: »
    I can't possibly imagine a form of camo that is useful to higher lifeforms and not skulks. Besides, lopsided upgrade choices are a problem, not something to be encouraged.
    Yeah but isn't it this way now? Look at the Onos... What do you choose... celerity or adrenaline? camouflage or silence? carapace or regeneration? Most people would only have one set of viable choices. (like who would take regen?)

    IMHO the main problem with camo is that it's counter-intuitive when you consider the fast pace of gameplay, and the slow speed that you need to travel at to keep camo up. Creeping around the map camouflaged is more a detriment to aliens than anything, since it completely kills the alien's key advantage, which is speed.

  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    edited March 2013
    The actual use of camo is counter intuitive, the preceding one was clear. Slow speed locked and invisible.
    In exchange of this slow speed, you could find a path to set up an assault.

    Now I can hardly find any use to camo.
  • SeeVeeSeeVee Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165206Members
    edited March 2013
    I find a lot of people resistant to change in general and find even more people resistant when the change makes them either do more work or use their noggin for a change.

    Before camo had no consequence and was totally easy to use/kill. I really enjoy the fact that I have to use it thoughtfully. It is a new mechanically but it takes little or no time to learn how to use it effectively
  • ezayezay Join Date: 2013-03-11 Member: 183899Members
    edited March 2013
    SeeVee wrote: »
    I find a lot of people resistant to change in general and find even more people resistant when the change makes them either do more work or use their noggin for a change.

    Before camo had no consequence and was totally easy to use/kill. I really enjoy the fact that I have to use it thoughtfully. It is a new mechanically but it takes little or no time to learn how to use it effectively

    I find a lot of people eager to criticize other people to appear superior.

    Camo was nerfed, not merely altered. People discussing that nerf is something logical, not only people not willing to adapt. Keep your superior tone for yourself.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    Camo involved no skill before.

    It now requires the skulk to use his brain instead of just mindlessly straight lining into unaware Marines or just camping areas infinitely with the only counter being observatory and scan spam - which was very uncommon from public commanders so it was pretty miserable.

    I'd like to see the effect slightly tweaked so it's a little hard to see but otherwise it's working as intended imo.
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    Locklear wrote: »
    Camo involved no skill before.

    It now requires the skulk to use his brain instead of just mindlessly straight lining into unaware Marines or just camping areas infinitely with the only counter being observatory and scan spam - which was very uncommon from public commanders so it was pretty miserable.

    I'd like to see the effect slightly tweaked so it's a little hard to see but otherwise it's working as intended imo.
    It required a lot of skill if you wanted to win and not just have a good K:D ratio.

    Camo was totally useless for most of the beta, in the last few weeks they buffed it and made it useful.
    They have now reverted back to the early days of the beta where camo is again useless.

    There is no skill required in using it...its just made it easy for people to see you and kill you.
    The shade tech tree is totally useless again and we are back to only 2 choices for first hive (yawn).
    The old shade made it easier to get kills early game...but would not win you the game.
    Now camo is "tits on a bull".
  • ezayezay Join Date: 2013-03-11 Member: 183899Members
    Locklear wrote: »
    Camo involved no skill before.

    A statement supported by no argument. Everything that isn't natural to the human being requires a skill.

    Camo involved a less developed sens of enemy awareness. It changed, got nerfed. It didn't went from "no brainz to use!!1" to "über skillzor only".
  • SeeVeeSeeVee Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165206Members
    edited March 2013
    ezay wrote: »
    SeeVee wrote: »
    I find a lot of people resistant to change in general and find even more people resistant when the change makes them either do more work or use their noggin for a change.

    Before camo had no consequence and was totally easy to use/kill. I really enjoy the fact that I have to use it thoughtfully. It is a new mechanically but it takes little or no time to learn how to use it effectively

    I find a lot of people eager to criticize other people to appear superior.

    Camo was nerfed, not merely altered. People discussing that nerf is something logical, not only people not willing to adapt. Keep your superior tone for yourself.

    Stop being a DB and stop projecting onto others your thought process OK. By your post I can tell you are certainly one of the people I was referring to. THANK YOU for making yourself known to everyone. I'm sure that took a lot of guts and you probably struggled with it internally for sometime.

    If for some reason you take my post as trying to sound "superior" then you are probably a mess in real life because you seem to have no coping skills.



    Getting back to the topic... I still say camo is in a really good spot now and people need to learn it's mechanics again to see how it fits in.

    *DISCLAIMER* This poster claims no responsibility for any perceived superiority by any reader in the UWE forums. Any frustration or hurt feelings obtained from reading the aforementioned post is truly the sole responsibility of the reader and should seek immediate intervention through a proper support system.
  • duke_Qaduke_Qa Join Date: 2007-09-22 Member: 62405Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Haven't seen camo around since gorgeous when playing marine. Used it a few times myself but overall you have to be passive to use it, which doesn't help aliens much.

    Its back where it was during the beta really, and even though the new shaders are nice, its not very useful compared to silence and all the other upgrades.

    Maybe if you added a damage buff for a second when you jumped out of camo it would have been worth it, or reduce the camo-time so you can hide faster, or make it so you can run around with camo until you attack it might have been more interesting, but eh.

  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    SeeVee wrote: »
    Getting back to the topic... I still say camo is in a really good spot now and people need to learn it's mechanics again to see how it fits in.

    I don't see how people can say this. You could barely justify using camo before the changes. Now that it's even worse? You simply don't see camo anymore.

    I'll give it a go a few times today though. So I can give some actual feedback.
  • ezayezay Join Date: 2013-03-11 Member: 183899Members
    edited March 2013
    SeeVee wrote: »
    Stop being a DB and stop projecting onto others your thought process OK. By your post I can tell you are certainly one of the people I was referring to. THANK YOU for making yourself known to everyone. I'm sure that took a lot of guts and you probably struggled with it internally for sometime.

    So your "thought process" is that since I disagree with your post, I am a noob. Such an elevated point of view.

    Sorry to disappoint, but I had no problem with Camo before, and don't have one with it as it stands right now either. Simply disagreeing with you does not magically make me a bad player, as strongly as you'd love to.
    SeeVee wrote: »
    If for some reason you take my post as trying to sound "superior" then you are probably a mess in real life because you seem to have no coping skills.

    Oh yes, that's what you did. If telling people that they don't have skills, that they should L2P etc isn't trying to sound superior, I simply think you have trouble understanding what "trying to sound superior" means.

    SeeVee wrote: »
    Getting back to the topic... I still say camo is in a really good spot now and people need to learn it's mechanics again to see how it fits in.

    What if I told you, not because people have a different opinion that yours doesn't mean they haven't learned its new mechanics ?

    Morpheus2.jpg
  • WoollySammothWoollySammoth Join Date: 2013-02-14 Member: 183062Members
    SeeVee wrote: »

    [...]You simply don't see camo anymore.

    Am i the only person who giggled at the irony of this? :p



    I do agree the new camo stops a straight line, floor-level skulk rush at a marine, but people are forgetting that there were other ways to use camo before. Post-G'gous camo just feels kinda attenuated, it has less possible uses: Some of those ways *were* on the cheesy end of the spectrum, some of them weren't though.


    I would suggest have camo de-cloak slower based on movements: so if a camo-khaara were to tap "W" once then wait a second, tap "W" again and so on, they would slowly move forward without uncamoing ("uncamoing" is a terrible word :$). A skulk jumping from a wall, or a lerk dropping for a perch would uncamo closer to landing/2nd wing beat, and not milliseconds after leaving the wall--because in the air is pretty much the only time camo has any chance of not being seen :p.


    I don't mind using camo as an alien, I didn't mind the old camo existing as a marine. Both ways are essentially fine, but that's it, both versions feel not-quite-there. I will say this though:

    As a marine i much preferred the
    "They're coming out of the walls! They're coming out of the God-damn walls!" moments to the
    "They're on the walls! I can see them moving around on the God-damn walls!" moments.

    ;P
  • SeeVeeSeeVee Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165206Members
    edited March 2013
    ezay or morpheus (I don't now who you are today),

    Your last statement in your post is so contradicting it erases everything you say prior. You totally screwed your cause by using the words "people" and "different opinion".

    To put it clearly for you. I stated my thoughts and opinion about camo and so did you. I never directly attacked anyone but you seem to feel directly affected by my post which does mean in the end that I may possibly may have been right as it seems to have struck a nerve with you. (you may be one of the people I refer to)

    I still think camo is great where it is. I like having to use it sparingly and I have yet to have a marine detect me using it.

    I will not respond to anything you say in any topic out of utter embarrassment for you and helping the community not be subject to your chaos, that will have to be a torch you bear alone here.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I saw alien side of cloak today.. And I miss my blueish world making the weird noise tbh. It had feel.
    The new cloak, while showing how much you are cloaked, lacks feel.

    Thats my biggest grumpf
  • ezayezay Join Date: 2013-03-11 Member: 183899Members
    SeeVee wrote: »
    Your last statement in your post is so contradicting it erases everything you say prior. You totally screwed your cause by using the words "people" and "different opinion".

    No. There is no argument in what you write. I have to clarify this to you: writing what you wish for does not make it true. I never contradicted myself, and screwed nothing. If you want to go that way, use arguments, prove what you mean. Else, just don't post.
    SeeVee wrote: »
    To put it clearly for you. I stated my thoughts and opinion about camo and so did you. I never directly attacked anyone

    Yes, yes you did. I'm quoting you directly: "I find a lot of people resistant to change in general and find even more people resistant when the change makes them either do more work or use their noggin for a change"

    How is that an attack ? It is one by stating people believing the change is a nerf just aren't able to be honest with themselves to admit they just aren't able to adapt. You tried a diplomatical attack, some would say an hypocritical one. Avoiding frontal attack is nice and all, but that's still an attack. Cute words and twisted meanings don't fool people that passed high school, bro.
    SeeVee wrote: »
    you seem to feel directly affected by my post which does mean in the end that I may possibly may have been right as it seems to have struck a nerve with you. (you may be one of the people I refer to)

    How old are you ? This is play ground logic. If I feel offended by something you say, it means I'm that ? So defending gay people makes me gay ? Believing handicaped people are normal people make me what, a down syndrom victim ? Yes, this is the exact same logic you're using. Because I'm defending a side, you're only comeback is that I'm from that side.

    I'm not offended by your posts. I find them real stupid. That's about it.
  • FirebreathingmaniacFirebreathingmaniac Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184057Members
    I myself love camo, and I think it's amazing, but that's because I know how to use it effectively. For instance yesterday. We were trying to attack a phase gate (on descent the one map I haven`t played much) and the marines were doing a fair job defending. So I employed hit and run camo tactics. I would leap away when they saw me and it was very effective to the point where they had to go back through their phase constantly or risk death and have to respawn, and this caused them to lose the phase gate and forward base. My point with this is that camo is not meant to be used for strait up attacks. What it does is make ambushes from behind or through shadows easier, and what I have seen is people going around and walking straight at marines in bright light and expecting not to be seen.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    I myself love camo, and I think it's amazing, but that's because I know how to use it effectively. For instance yesterday. We were trying to attack a phase gate (on descent the one map I haven`t played much) and the marines were doing a fair job defending. So I employed hit and run camo tactics. I would leap away when they saw me and it was very effective to the point where they had to go back through their phase constantly or risk death and have to respawn, and this caused them to lose the phase gate and forward base. My point with this is that camo is not meant to be used for strait up attacks. What it does is make ambushes from behind or through shadows easier, and what I have seen is people going around and walking straight at marines in bright light and expecting not to be seen.

    Celerity is far better for hit and run, for obvious reasons. Also having leap puts this out of range of the early game which is what most people are concerned about. Camo is already certified useless after the 7-8 minute mark.

  • FirebreathingmaniacFirebreathingmaniac Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184057Members
    edited March 2013
    Let's see a skull with celerity walk up in the shadows to a marine that's looking right at him and live. And with celerity you will be seen no matter what if a marine is looking at you because you appear as a big red dot on any marine's mini map. You know the one in the corner that takes up about a twelfth of the screen.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Let's see a skull with celerity walk up in the shadows to a marine that's looking right at him and live.

    Lets see you do that with camouflage.

  • BULLET WIZARDBULLET WIZARD Join Date: 2013-01-05 Member: 177702Members
    I think making the 100% cloak transition when sneaking instant & greatly reducing the in combat timer is the way to go.
    Also sewleks merge of camo and silence is pretty great.
  • Comrade SuhovComrade Suhov Join Date: 2012-12-29 Member: 176626Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    Only new thing I like about new camo is it's looks. But it's completely worthless vs. skilled players and I do not like to remain still for ages to perform a perfect ambush. With old camo marines felt danger when they were far away from observatory and I think it was ok.
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