New camo is designed for ambushes, not stealth walking across the entire map. It is working as intended. As lock said, new camo actually requires some level of cognitive ability rather than mindlessly walking up to some random marine and biting his ankles twice before he realizes you are there. All of you saying that the shade tree is completely useless (as a first upgrade) is silly as well. Silence upgrade is much more useful against players who can aim compared to celerity. Crag hive is the best first hive choice imo.
I think making the 100% cloak transition when sneaking instant & greatly reducing the in combat timer is the way to go.
Also sewleks merge of camo and silence is pretty great.
Sounds like a plan to me at least, allow the skulk to quickly skip around a corner and hide even faster than now. How does camo work with regen right now?
Silence and Camo might be combined, but then they need to add Focus or something like that. Personally I think Focus could have been added into camo for a few seconds after you decloak on your own, that would make it worthwhile to wait and ambush.
On the little debate between ezay and SeeVee I side with ezay. Nuff said.
Tested camo a good few times, about 3/4 marines would see me if I moved in the camo roughly infront of them. (Pretty much any distance.)
Considering how rare camo is, I'm willing to bet that after getting used to what camoed aliens look like they will be spotted as if they had no camo at all.
Tested camo a good few times, about 3/4 marines would see me if I moved in the camo roughly infront of them. (Pretty much any distance.)
Considering how rare camo is, I'm willing to bet that after getting used to what camoed aliens look like they will be spotted as if they had no camo at all.
Camo needs another revamp.
Haven't had much time to play lately, (having a newborn in the house squashes all that game time) but if the current implementation of camo actually has a model for the cloaked alien; it will be useless. It is bad enough that we have neon skulk skins, but now a replacement skin for "cloaked aliens" will relegate camo to the "lol they got camo" pile.
I was playing a game the other day, and this one guy was able to see fully cloaked skulks sitting still on the floor or on the ceiling (no scans). At first, I thought it was hacks. Looking more closely at my cloaked skulk model, I noticed that I was not 100% fully invisible on my screen. I could see a very, very faint outline of teeth against the floor, which is more visible when the floor has a grate texture (several parallel lines). I'm not sure if this is just something I can only see from my POV, or if it's something I can see if I were a marine looking directly at the skulk.
Tested camo a good few times, about 3/4 marines would see me if I moved in the camo roughly infront of them. (Pretty much any distance.)
Considering how rare camo is, I'm willing to bet that after getting used to what camoed aliens look like they will be spotted as if they had no camo at all.
Camo needs another revamp.
If you stand still they will not see you. Also try moving when they are not looking in your direction if you are that close to them. Camo is not supposed to let you walk right in front of a marines face undetected. Try positioning yourself in a spot where they will eventually come to you then attack.
If you stand still they will not see you. Also try moving when they are not looking in your direction if you are that close to them. Camo is not supposed to let you walk right in front of a marines face undetected. Try positioning yourself in a spot where they will eventually come to you then attack.
I know how to play, thanks. The point was that camo is so much worse, previously being just bad*, that there's no way to justify it over other upgrades.
Tested camo a good few times, about 3/4 marines would see me if I moved in the camo roughly infront of them. (Pretty much any distance.)
Considering how rare camo is, I'm willing to bet that after getting used to what camoed aliens look like they will be spotted as if they had no camo at all.
Camo needs another revamp.
If you stand still they will not see you. Also try moving when they are not looking in your direction if you are that close to them. Camo is not supposed to let you walk right in front of a marines face undetected. Try positioning yourself in a spot where they will eventually come to you then attack.
This is the primary problem I have found with camo; the waiting.
Camo is obviously brilliant for getting the drop on a marine, which in this game often means that the fight is already won, but that obviously comes at the cost of being defensive and always waiting. Camo is perfect for defending harvesters. Expand to two locations, drop harvesters, and have half the team camp, invisible, at both. Wow, those harvesters are well defended now.
However, while you take 3 harvesters, the marines take all of the other ones.
Defensive marine play completely destroys the primary benefit of camouflage. Unfortunately, in such a situation, marines can afford to be defensive, aliens cannot.
As it stands, I think Sewlek's mod has shown that a combination of this camouflage + silence is FAR more desirable and competitive with carapace/celerity. I sincerely hope they add it it in sometime in the future and then bring back focus to truly bring shade on par with other hive choices.
As it stands, I think Sewlek's mod has shown that a combination of this camouflage + silence is FAR more desirable and competitive with carapace/celerity. I sincerely hope they add it it in sometime in the future and then bring back focus to truly bring shade on par with other hive choices.
Considering that silence was already a popular competitive choice, don't you think that silence combined with camo would be overpowered? Or is camo so useless that it doesn't even increase the value of an upgrade?
As it stands, I think Sewlek's mod has shown that a combination of this camouflage + silence is FAR more desirable and competitive with carapace/celerity. I sincerely hope they add it it in sometime in the future and then bring back focus to truly bring shade on par with other hive choices.
Yea but it leaves no other upgrade.. And currently silence isnt working as it typically does.
Not having another upgrade feels like its quite the investment still.
Would prefer focus or something else to contend with, if combined.
I really want to see a perma-camo tried. The 90% invisible would be ok, if the alien can run / fly at full speed and (maybe bite and) can get hit without being uncloaked.
Silence is already fine, no need to buff it with camo.
A camo that increases the difficulty to aim at an alien that is moving with full speed is far better than the binary mechanic of being invisible or not. You can even keep the fully invisible while not moving. That adds to the variety of using camo.
Like celerity has 2 benefits (faster map travel; getting faster into melee range) camo would than also have two (making you harder to hit in combat; allows for better ambushes).
I really wish @Sewlek would try it in his balance mod.
Even if camo doesn't necessarily make plain movement hard to identify, imagine how potent it could potentially be when given the celerity type affect of not subsiding when used in conjunction with movement abilities.
Leaping and shadow stepping with camouflage could be amazing. You could use it to completely lose any tracking on you.
I think that remaining semi cloaked through any amount of damage may be too much though. Maybe gaining higher and higher levels of distortion based on damage taken could promote skill based play, where players would become more evasive and take cover when becoming too visible.
I know how to play, thanks. The point was that camo is so much worse, previously being just bad*, that there's no way to justify it over other upgrades.
*It was great on 99% of pubs tho.
OK whew for a second there you had me scared...
I think full inviso camo on pub server was the worst. What fun is it if the entire op team is invisible most of the game? A skulk could take two bites out a marine before he even could react. It was totally not fair at all. I'd love to see the Marines have some cloaking tech that made them inviso camo in an upcoming patch and see what happens then.
Even when I played aliens in the fully inviso days I felt so cheap killing 2-3 marines because they could not see me 98% of time. It just wasn't fun.
Reason? Of the 17 people I pmed 1 person actually gave me a situation where Camo fails when they feel it should not
That situation is where Marines have taken 4-5 nodes and switch to a holding pattern
Camo won't work because they will easily see you trying to sneak into a room
My response is that when Marines try to hold multiple front lines like this that an Evolution is no longer necessary
Your team should be able to pool together and hit their weakest location
Or you can go for a beacon while a few others hang back to hit one of their fronts after it goes off
At this point in the game your team should also have enough res for some advanced lifeforms to pile on the movement pressure
If you hate Lerk with Camo it's very possible for Silence to come online as Shade is a cheaper tech route
This also easily transitions into the only other piece of good feedback I got from my PMs. . . where Camo absolutely dominates
Custom mods allowing 2 evolutions from same tree similar to old betas
I've heard Camo+Silence is even better than Cara+Regen on these servers
This potential is even good enough to even make it way onto the 6on6 scene if it were brought back to the main game
Something that might be desperately needed in what seems to be an otherwise very stale competitive metagame
These are the two subjects I'm looking for feedback on
Again. . . out of 17 pms this was the only good feedback I received(people willing to give specific situations as I asked for)
I'd like to shift focus here so if Camo does need a change, a sidegrade as I have suggested in my previous thread, or additional support we can get there
I may even start a new thread for visibility as some may not see a page 4 post, but we'll try it here first
That is the fundamental reason why everyone thinks that camo doesn't work. It allows you to lie in wait, in situations where you have to be overtly offensive.
If any upgrade is going to result in the marines being able to take the vast majority of the map, its camo.
What squid means to say is: Out of all his pms he will now produce only the feedback he agreed with.
Whereas the rest of us just continued to say that camo is bad when compared to other tech paths in serious play.
In an attempt to appeal to peoples logic...if before, camo was considered an inferior or questionable upgrade by many people (I actually kinda liked it), how could its new, much worse version be comparable to the other upgrade paths.
the thing i dont understand is why they make it a camp ability when aliens lose if they camp too much.
Noobs will use this and sit in a corner while thinking that they are being useful.
Camo was actually useful before this nerf. Now it's just derp.
If Camo really is a problem a better solution would be to remove Camo alltogether and replace it with something new. wall climbing maybe (onos hiding on the wall above a door anyone?:D).
the thing i dont understand is why they make it a camp ability when aliens lose if they camp too much.
Noobs will use this and sit in a corner while thinking that they are being useful.
Camo was actually useful before this nerf. Now it's just derp.
If Camo really is a problem a better solution would be to remove Camo alltogether and replace it with something new. wall climbing maybe (onos hiding on the wall above a door anyone?:D).
It is used to ambush not camp. There is a VERY large difference between the two. This now actually requires you to set up ambushes (like you should normally w/o cammo) except you have the benefit of being 100% invisible just before you attack which is a very big help since you can set up ambushes in spots that are not typical. To use the new cammo you play like you don't have it aside from picking ambush spots.
current1y is on the right track with usage of camo and I couldn't agree more with what he said. I played more tonight on aliens and I still find it it a great tool & more fun to use than running around the map 100% inviso getting kills in my sleep. To me it makes the kill so much more satisfying ... yummy!
Could there be some more tweaking to it, sure. Maybe staying shimmered longer instead of insta-visability flicker when jumping or something.
If Camo remained the way it is, but made the alien not have motion tracking circles in obs or scan range, I could see it becoming more viable, without really gumming up the game too much. (Alien would still be visible on mini-map)
True, if obs didn't have passive detection of camoed aliens it would have been more tolerable. But I think that would remove more from the game than it would add to it.
Engineers might think their work is done when there's nothing more to take away, but game design is not engineering.
I'm pretty sure something will happen again though. But then again, we still have xenocide around.
True, if obs didn't have passive detection of camoed aliens it would have been more tolerable. But I think that would remove more from the game than it would add to it.
Engineers might think their work is done when there's nothing more to take away, but game design is not engineering.
I'm pretty sure something will happen again though. But then again, we still have xenocide around.
Obs/scan detection would remain the same, only motion tracking circles would be gone. This way all obs/scan functionality remains the same for the commander, but only takes away the marine's circle motion assist icon.
So cloak would remove a marine buff, a partial hard-counter to obs/scan.
It's been over a week; please tell me that at least some people have switched sides on the argument
. . . actually I think I'll just ask them directly
-
AS I replied to your pm..
Opinion has not changed...Camo is still garbage and shade has again been relegated to 3rd hive (when there is no other option).
It can in no way shape or form be used in any sort of offensive manner.
Heck even if the marines dont have Obs they will see you as you try to move across the room.
Sure you could sneak to where they are not...but at some point you need to secure more tech points and push into marine territory.
Why should I be stuck in a room because 5 marines walk into it? I have no avenue of retreat, no armour of weapons upgrades either.
UWE have again succeeded in limiting the tech tree options to 2 paths;
1) Crag - Shift - Shade
2) Shift - Crag - Shade
You will not see shade first being succesful against anything but a totally green marine team who dont know about camo.
We went through months of having shade being the last option even when feign death was available it was hardly used.
I guess the aim must be to simplify the alien tech tree and streamline the gameplay and strats.
UWE really need to stop smoking so much ganja, I am assuming thats whats caused the short term memory issues that have meant they forgot about how useless camo was.
It was not that it didn't look pretty enough...but that it was useless when you could be seen even 1%.
Comments
I have very effectively.
Edited for typo
Sounds like a plan to me at least, allow the skulk to quickly skip around a corner and hide even faster than now. How does camo work with regen right now?
Silence and Camo might be combined, but then they need to add Focus or something like that. Personally I think Focus could have been added into camo for a few seconds after you decloak on your own, that would make it worthwhile to wait and ambush.
On the little debate between ezay and SeeVee I side with ezay. Nuff said.
Considering how rare camo is, I'm willing to bet that after getting used to what camoed aliens look like they will be spotted as if they had no camo at all.
Camo needs another revamp.
Haven't had much time to play lately, (having a newborn in the house squashes all that game time) but if the current implementation of camo actually has a model for the cloaked alien; it will be useless. It is bad enough that we have neon skulk skins, but now a replacement skin for "cloaked aliens" will relegate camo to the "lol they got camo" pile.
It wasn't an argument to bolster uselessness, but a comment about implementation and how it might contribute to uselesness.
If you stand still they will not see you. Also try moving when they are not looking in your direction if you are that close to them. Camo is not supposed to let you walk right in front of a marines face undetected. Try positioning yourself in a spot where they will eventually come to you then attack.
It's been over a week; please tell me that at least some people have switched sides on the argument
. . . actually I think I'll just ask them directly
-
I know how to play, thanks. The point was that camo is so much worse, previously being just bad*, that there's no way to justify it over other upgrades.
*It was great on 99% of pubs tho.
This is the primary problem I have found with camo; the waiting.
Camo is obviously brilliant for getting the drop on a marine, which in this game often means that the fight is already won, but that obviously comes at the cost of being defensive and always waiting. Camo is perfect for defending harvesters. Expand to two locations, drop harvesters, and have half the team camp, invisible, at both. Wow, those harvesters are well defended now.
However, while you take 3 harvesters, the marines take all of the other ones.
Defensive marine play completely destroys the primary benefit of camouflage. Unfortunately, in such a situation, marines can afford to be defensive, aliens cannot.
Considering that silence was already a popular competitive choice, don't you think that silence combined with camo would be overpowered? Or is camo so useless that it doesn't even increase the value of an upgrade?
Not having another upgrade feels like its quite the investment still.
Would prefer focus or something else to contend with, if combined.
Silence is already fine, no need to buff it with camo.
A camo that increases the difficulty to aim at an alien that is moving with full speed is far better than the binary mechanic of being invisible or not. You can even keep the fully invisible while not moving. That adds to the variety of using camo.
Like celerity has 2 benefits (faster map travel; getting faster into melee range) camo would than also have two (making you harder to hit in combat; allows for better ambushes).
I really wish @Sewlek would try it in his balance mod.
Leaping and shadow stepping with camouflage could be amazing. You could use it to completely lose any tracking on you.
I think that remaining semi cloaked through any amount of damage may be too much though. Maybe gaining higher and higher levels of distortion based on damage taken could promote skill based play, where players would become more evasive and take cover when becoming too visible.
OK whew for a second there you had me scared...
I think full inviso camo on pub server was the worst. What fun is it if the entire op team is invisible most of the game? A skulk could take two bites out a marine before he even could react. It was totally not fair at all. I'd love to see the Marines have some cloaking tech that made them inviso camo in an upcoming patch and see what happens then.
Even when I played aliens in the fully inviso days I felt so cheap killing 2-3 marines because they could not see me 98% of time. It just wasn't fun.
Reason? Of the 17 people I pmed 1 person actually gave me a situation where Camo fails when they feel it should not
That situation is where Marines have taken 4-5 nodes and switch to a holding pattern
Camo won't work because they will easily see you trying to sneak into a room
My response is that when Marines try to hold multiple front lines like this that an Evolution is no longer necessary
Your team should be able to pool together and hit their weakest location
Or you can go for a beacon while a few others hang back to hit one of their fronts after it goes off
At this point in the game your team should also have enough res for some advanced lifeforms to pile on the movement pressure
If you hate Lerk with Camo it's very possible for Silence to come online as Shade is a cheaper tech route
This also easily transitions into the only other piece of good feedback I got from my PMs. . . where Camo absolutely dominates
Custom mods allowing 2 evolutions from same tree similar to old betas
I've heard Camo+Silence is even better than Cara+Regen on these servers
This potential is even good enough to even make it way onto the 6on6 scene if it were brought back to the main game
Something that might be desperately needed in what seems to be an otherwise very stale competitive metagame
These are the two subjects I'm looking for feedback on
Again. . . out of 17 pms this was the only good feedback I received (people willing to give specific situations as I asked for)
I'd like to shift focus here so if Camo does need a change, a sidegrade as I have suggested in my previous thread, or additional support we can get there
I may even start a new thread for visibility as some may not see a page 4 post, but we'll try it here first
-
If any upgrade is going to result in the marines being able to take the vast majority of the map, its camo.
Whereas the rest of us just continued to say that camo is bad when compared to other tech paths in serious play.
In an attempt to appeal to peoples logic...if before, camo was considered an inferior or questionable upgrade by many people (I actually kinda liked it), how could its new, much worse version be comparable to the other upgrade paths.
Noobs will use this and sit in a corner while thinking that they are being useful.
Camo was actually useful before this nerf. Now it's just derp.
If Camo really is a problem a better solution would be to remove Camo alltogether and replace it with something new. wall climbing maybe (onos hiding on the wall above a door anyone?:D).
It is used to ambush not camp. There is a VERY large difference between the two. This now actually requires you to set up ambushes (like you should normally w/o cammo) except you have the benefit of being 100% invisible just before you attack which is a very big help since you can set up ambushes in spots that are not typical. To use the new cammo you play like you don't have it aside from picking ambush spots.
Could there be some more tweaking to it, sure. Maybe staying shimmered longer instead of insta-visability flicker when jumping or something.
Engineers might think their work is done when there's nothing more to take away, but game design is not engineering.
I'm pretty sure something will happen again though. But then again, we still have xenocide around.
Obs/scan detection would remain the same, only motion tracking circles would be gone. This way all obs/scan functionality remains the same for the commander, but only takes away the marine's circle motion assist icon.
So cloak would remove a marine buff, a partial hard-counter to obs/scan.
The old digital camo was easy to use, which is good, except it was the best of both worlds. Why not have a camo that still makes noise?
Adding a trackable sound to fully cloaked movement could definitely be a balancing approach
AS I replied to your pm..
Opinion has not changed...Camo is still garbage and shade has again been relegated to 3rd hive (when there is no other option).
It can in no way shape or form be used in any sort of offensive manner.
Heck even if the marines dont have Obs they will see you as you try to move across the room.
Sure you could sneak to where they are not...but at some point you need to secure more tech points and push into marine territory.
Why should I be stuck in a room because 5 marines walk into it? I have no avenue of retreat, no armour of weapons upgrades either.
UWE have again succeeded in limiting the tech tree options to 2 paths;
1) Crag - Shift - Shade
2) Shift - Crag - Shade
You will not see shade first being succesful against anything but a totally green marine team who dont know about camo.
We went through months of having shade being the last option even when feign death was available it was hardly used.
I guess the aim must be to simplify the alien tech tree and streamline the gameplay and strats.
UWE really need to stop smoking so much ganja, I am assuming thats whats caused the short term memory issues that have meant they forgot about how useless camo was.
It was not that it didn't look pretty enough...but that it was useless when you could be seen even 1%.