As long as shotguns exist in their current form, Aliens will always be at a disadvantage

Merciless OneMerciless One Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168344Members
Shotguns are the bane of existence for Aliens. There is only 1 life form on the Alien side that can "negate" the Marine shotgun, and that is the Onos, and only the Onos because of their high HP.

Skulks, Gorges, Lerks and Fades are always at a disadvantage when fighting against a Marine with a shotgun.

It goes something like this:

Skulk - 1 shot
Gorge - 2 shots
Lerks - 2 shots
Fades - 2 shots

Shotguns make bad and average Marine players "feel" like they're good at the game, and great players god like.

And this is only talking about a single Marine vs an Alien life form. Now imagine 3 Marines sticking together for the whole match (which, if it was more common, there would be a lot more complaints) with shotguns, and you have a mini death ball.

We'll leave Jetpacks out of this equation, because it wouldn't be fair to beat the shotgun OP'ness to death. But we all know what a good Marine with a shotgun and a Jetpack feels like anyway.
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Comments

  • solidsnake00solidsnake00 Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25743Members
    shotguns are pretty expensive at 20 res, and the key to taking them down is to whittle them, ambush, or charge in when they're not looking. I think it's fine.
  • CommanderCoronaCommanderCorona Join Date: 2013-03-20 Member: 184095Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    Not true - I cannot tell you how many times I've died as Fade from a SINGLE shotgun round...
    (And Lerk for that matter too)
  • solidsnake00solidsnake00 Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25743Members
    and I can tell you that once I go lerk/fade I almost never die because I play carefully... it really just varies from player to player depending on skill level. playing aliens is all about movement, deception, and mind games
  • casan0vaxcasan0vax Cloverfield, USA Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166663Members, WC 2013 - Shadow
    current1y wrote: »
    I can, the answer is zero.
    QTF.

  • FacTorFacTor Wyoming, MI Join Date: 2002-12-17 Member: 10916Members
    Shotguns aren't that fabulous. Perhaps a somehow early rush of weapons damage upgrades alongside them in the early game can help turn some battles in the Marines favor, but eventually, they don't play a deep significant role.

    I mean... maybe if we had an Exo with dual rapid-fire shotties.
  • ColtColtColtColt Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153707Members
    Not true - I cannot tell you how many times I've died as Fade from a SINGLE shotgun round...
    (And Lerk for that matter too)

    While I realize it may *feel* this way, there is a certain mathematical requirement involved that can't be met by a single shotgun round.

    Fade's got 250/100, which is an 'effective' 450 health.
    Without Carapace, 250/50, effective 350 health.
    Shotgun mathematically cannot achieve more than like ~250 damage per shot, with full pellet hit.
    It is, quite factually, impossible, to die to a single shotgun hit from full health with a fade.

  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Leave my shotgun alone, you scrubs!
  • peregrinusperegrinus Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72445Members
    shotguns are pretty expensive at 20 res, and the key to taking them down is to whittle them, ambush, or charge in when they're not looking. I think it's fine.

    I know for great alien players it's different, but here's my experience doing what you suggest.

    This is simply my experience and what I observe...not how it is for everyone, esp the really good skulks.

    - whittle them down (you mean bite, run away, bite, runaway - right?)

    Marines can just heal with a med pack or armoury, and the skulk is too slow to get in and out combat without losing most of its health if not all. The tactic only works well with the lerk.

    - ambush

    not many places where you can hide well. Skulks are large, so usually spotted, and the luminous skin mods don't help. Even with a good ambush your footsteps are audible far away and you're easily pin pointed. Best case scenario you get a bite, the marine activates space bar pogo stick - and only needs one shotgun hit. Skulks need 3 or 4 or 5? bites; so they need to be that many times better at landing hits than shotty rines. And ambushes are often impossible because of scans and observatories.

    - charge in

    footsteps instantly reveal your exact location to all rines in the rooms and adjacent rooms.
    So you get lucky, or use silence, and they don't hear you. Well its not hard to kill a slow moving skulk. Don't think melee range gives you a special advantage. Rines seem just as agile as the skulks in close combat. Again, they need one hit. You have to get multiple bites in.

    Loud footsteps, large silhouette, slow movement, that all makes sense if skulks are deadly up close. But they're not, and for whatever reason UW didn't implement Focus (alien damage upgrade evolution). Focus slowed your attack rate, but it actually let you ambush well. You needed 2 bites in most cases, as I recall anyway.

    Bring back focus! Quieten skulk footstep noise by 1/3 - 1/2!

    Slow shotgun fire rate?







  • |DFA| Havoc|DFA| Havoc Join Date: 2009-08-07 Member: 68375Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Skulks are free, whereas medpack, observatories, and scans all cost T-Res for marines, not to mention an attentive comm. Running back to an armory wastes the marine's time and keeps him from being aggressive. For each of those counters you list, aliens have a similar or better tool available.

    Usually you just need a little coordination to bring down shotgunners in the field. I still see 20-res shotguns lost to 0-res skulks all the time. If you can't focus down a shotgunner with a couple buddies because the marines are moving in a large pack, use your mobility advantage and go around them, hit them where they are weak.

    If you are unable to win frontal assaults AND you are getting consistently shut down when using guerilla tactics, you are probably just facing a more skilled team and the weapons themselves aren't going to matter that much.

    A skilled marine with a shotgun can do a lot of damage, but ultimately that marine is still very fragile in the big picture. For every AG marine I come across with a 10:1 KD ratio in pubs, I see a half a dozen unkillable godmode fades going 30:1. Bring back focus and that will only get worse.
  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    FacTor wrote: »
    Shotguns aren't that fabulous. Perhaps a somehow early rush of weapons damage upgrades alongside them in the early game can help turn some battles in the Marines favor, but eventually, they don't play a deep significant role.

    I mean... maybe if we had an Exo with dual rapid-fire shotties.

    Look at every single comp game ever (and many pub games) to see how wrong you are.
  • pearlykpearlyk Join Date: 2013-01-19 Member: 180732Members
    edited March 2013
    If only was that easy to two-shot a good fade...

    Edit: Thinking a little about it, this argument can go both ways, I'm sure some mediocre/average fades feels badass after two hitting a bunch of a0 LMG players.

    I think fades are fine, perhaps a slight hp buff is needed to make them not two shottable, but I think they are OK atm.

  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    If the armory giving armor change goes live we will see a need for the shotgun in it's present form. Combine that with faster (hopefully more maneuverable than in the current form (Balance Mod) ) skulks and it might fix itself. No need to bring out the nerf bat every time =)
  • derWalterderWalter Join Date: 2008-10-29 Member: 65323Members
    silence and ambushing, cya marines :)
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited March 2013
    Well, it is a 20 res weapon, and since it's only effective at short range, it should be able to one shot skulks up close imo. Lerks should also know better not to get close to shotties anyway, they have spikes to deal with them. I only think fades could maybe use just a little HP or armor buff.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Shotgun already got nerfed once, leave it alone. You're also assuming full hits which most people can't pull off reliably.

    You're totally right though, fades should be able to take 4-5 shots before dying, this would balance the game.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    And again, Focus is the answer :D
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    edited March 2013
    countbasie wrote: »
    And again, Focus is the answer :D

    I hope. If they use the camo/silence combined skill from Sewlek's mod AND throw in Focus as the second ability they could kill 2 birds with one stone.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    countbasie wrote: »
    And again, Focus is the answer :D

    I hope. If they use the combo/silence combined skill from Sewlek's mod AND throw in Focus as the second ability they could kill 2 birds with one stone.
    Yeah!
  • john_wesleyjohn_wesley Join Date: 2013-02-28 Member: 183445Members
    As overpowered as the shotgun seems, I think it's needed to give something to marines that lets them "stand their ground" and make aliens actually afraid to engage in head on fights. As a fade you can easily tank a rifle marine without any fear of getting killed and you definitely do not want to proliferate this kind of play.
  • solidsnake00solidsnake00 Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25743Members
    peregrinus wrote: »
    shotguns are pretty expensive at 20 res, and the key to taking them down is to whittle them, ambush, or charge in when they're not looking. I think it's fine.

    I know for great alien players it's different, but here's my experience doing what you suggest.

    This is simply my experience and what I observe...not how it is for everyone, esp the really good skulks.

    - whittle them down (you mean bite, run away, bite, runaway - right?)

    Marines can just heal with a med pack or armoury, and the skulk is too slow to get in and out combat without losing most of its health if not all. The tactic only works well with the lerk.

    - ambush

    not many places where you can hide well. Skulks are large, so usually spotted, and the luminous skin mods don't help. Even with a good ambush your footsteps are audible far away and you're easily pin pointed. Best case scenario you get a bite, the marine activates space bar pogo stick - and only needs one shotgun hit. Skulks need 3 or 4 or 5? bites; so they need to be that many times better at landing hits than shotty rines. And ambushes are often impossible because of scans and observatories.

    - charge in

    footsteps instantly reveal your exact location to all rines in the rooms and adjacent rooms.
    So you get lucky, or use silence, and they don't hear you. Well its not hard to kill a slow moving skulk. Don't think melee range gives you a special advantage. Rines seem just as agile as the skulks in close combat. Again, they need one hit. You have to get multiple bites in.

    Loud footsteps, large silhouette, slow movement, that all makes sense if skulks are deadly up close. But they're not, and for whatever reason UW didn't implement Focus (alien damage upgrade evolution). Focus slowed your attack rate, but it actually let you ambush well. You needed 2 bites in most cases, as I recall anyway.

    Bring back focus! Quieten skulk footstep noise by 1/3 - 1/2!

    Slow shotgun fire rate?

    I think the major problem is most people from what I've seen don't really know how to play aliens that well.

    You should almost never engage a shotgunner if he's next to an armory unless you have backup or are confident in your skills.

    As a skulk, you should parasite them before engaging. Often times you may not even need to do this (marines light up when they take damage), since the goal is to be able to see where they are and what direction they're looking at, or if they're busy reloading. You should be walking around anyway, since good players always use sound to know instantly where you are. The key is to catch them off guard. You can even use this to your advantage, for example, by letting them see/hear you set up an ambush on one side of the ceiling of a doorway, then walk (so they don't hear) to another spot. When they peek in to where they THINK you are, you can kill them easily.

    As far as charging in, it's a necessity to know how to walljump. You don't need to be great at it, but the key is to not give the marine enough time to react to the sound of your footsteps. This means walking the whole way, and only walljumping once or twice to close the gap. Hit him in the back, then circle around (since they will do a 180), and finish him off. Of course, you have to be able to hit your bites. When fighting a group of marines, whether you're alone or in a group, you should always go for the guy in the back of the pack, as it's least expected and more often than not the surprised marines will end up shooting their own buddies instead of you. After finishing him off, run away and repeat the process until they're all dead.

    If you're having trouble landing bites, maybe you should experiment playing at a higher sensitivity (I use double my sensitivity on aliens vs. marines)

    As a lerk, use glide/ground lerking to be completely silent (but of course you have to be careful and try to know where the marines are). Bite the shotgunner once or twice, fly to a safe distance and finish him off with spikes. Since they won't be expecting you, it's safe to do major damage by biting, and spiking them down after that is really easy.

    As a fade, there really is no easy way to be sneaky besides using the shadowstep + jump + jump or some variation of that to close the gap quickly and catch them unaware. The general rule I follow is one or two swipes and then get the hell out of there. Sometimes the smart thing to do is to shadowstep through the marines, see how many people fire shotguns at you, so you can better decide how difficult the engagement is (rather than charging and swiping, not knowing beforehand). While fighting, do a shadowstep + swipe and the majority of players will miss (even pros) if you catch them off guard.

    TLDR: Most people are bum rushing shotgunners expecting to live, and aliens really shouldn't be played like that.

    Source: THE GODDAMN BATMAN
  • StripetailsStripetails Join Date: 2013-01-30 Member: 182644Members, NS2 Playtester
    edited March 2013
    I don't know if Focus will ever be brought back, if they did it would be nerfed considerably. Fades would likely be reworked as well, as it stands they've got enough escape and dodge mechanics to barely be hit by the average player before getting the first hit off. With Silence, Camo, Blink, or their Shift the NS2 fade would be untouchable if the ability was dropped in right now.

    You could imagine a focus fade getting enzymes just before they rush a base, It would be terrifying.

    As for shotguns the only real change I could agree with them getting is a spread increase. It's very easy to deliver 60-80 damage to a Fade or Lerk in open rooms or long corridors. (Both of which are very common in NS2.) They could do this in a few ways, to reduce the effective range of the shotgun via increasing their spread (specifically the inner most pellet grouping) or by altering the shotgun's spread pattern again, which I would rather not see.

    Another possible solution would be to make shotgun pellets damage drop off exceedingly after they pass a certain distance from their firing point. (Like Lerk spikes, but much steeper!) :D

    It's getting better than it was, it just needs a little fine tuning.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    With the new shotty spread, I think they're fine. They are very good in close range, but next to useless on closing enemies.

    I do feel that a fade should require 2 1/2 shots though to give a little leeway for the 100ms interp thing

    I don't want focus because double damage and half attack speed is boring. The only lifeforms that really need it are the Skulk and the Fade anyway, why not allow leap and blink/shadowstep to apply additonal damage when used? Add in a special animation (to act as a cool down), and any attack in that time frame will deal bonus damage. A heavy attack will have an extra energy cost to balance it out, aliens will be able to 1 shot unarmored marines. Focus would just be another another carapace-type upgrade that reducing the viable choices of the Kahmm (the kind that people yell at you for not getting ASAP)
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    About the only thing I've ever felt would be 'right' for the shotgun would be to increase the cost to 25 and require advanced armory. This would put it on par with the flamethrower and grenade launcher, which seems reasonable given its strength.
  • Samus1111111Samus1111111 Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154930Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Neoken wrote: »
    Well, it is a 20 res weapon, and since it's only effective at short range, it should be able to one shot skulks up close imo. Lerks should also know better not to get close to shotties anyway, they have spikes to deal with them. I only think fades could maybe use just a little HP or armor buff.

    Let me turn this around...

    The fade is a 50 res weapon, and since it's only effective at short range, it should be able to one shot marines up close imo....

    Now does that make sense? I didn't think so.
  • solidsnake00solidsnake00 Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25743Members
    Neoken wrote: »
    Well, it is a 20 res weapon, and since it's only effective at short range, it should be able to one shot skulks up close imo. Lerks should also know better not to get close to shotties anyway, they have spikes to deal with them. I only think fades could maybe use just a little HP or armor buff.

    Let me turn this around...

    The fade is a 50 res weapon, and since it's only effective at short range, it should be able to one shot marines up close imo....

    Now does that make sense? I didn't think so.

    That's like comparing apples to oranges... NS2 is asymmetrical and you can't just do a direct comparison like that. 1 Fade is infinitely better than 1 marine with a shotgun, because of it's movement capabilities
  • solidsnake00solidsnake00 Join Date: 2004-01-30 Member: 25743Members
    Savant wrote: »
    About the only thing I've ever felt would be 'right' for the shotgun would be to increase the cost to 25 and require advanced armory. This would put it on par with the flamethrower and grenade launcher, which seems reasonable given its strength.

    I can see increasing the cost to be reasonable, but requiring an advanced armory is just too much. What happens when aliens do a lerk rush? It would be OP'd since the marines wouldn't be able to get shotguns out fast enough to counter

  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Neoken wrote: »
    Well, it is a 20 res weapon, and since it's only effective at short range, it should be able to one shot skulks up close imo. Lerks should also know better not to get close to shotties anyway, they have spikes to deal with them. I only think fades could maybe use just a little HP or armor buff.

    Let me turn this around...

    The fade is a 50 res weapon, and since it's only effective at short range, it should be able to one shot marines up close imo....

    Now does that make sense? I didn't think so.

    I don't even understand what you're trying to say?
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited March 2013
    I can see increasing the cost to be reasonable, but requiring an advanced armory is just too much.
    IHMO that's a whole other problem though. Personally I feel the marines have an economic disadvantage since they often lose so many extractors in the early game. If that wasn't the case, then the 20 res and 90 seconds for advanced armory wouldn't be that big a deal.

    I'm not saying you could toss this change into the game as is without balancing it, but I do feel there is potential. I'd rather see slightly later powerful shotguns, than earlier nerfed shotguns that are weak and are garbage in the middle/end game.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    edited March 2013
    1 Fade is infinitely better than 1 marine with a shotgun, because of it's movement capabilities
    I don't know if Focus will ever be brought back, if they did it would be nerfed considerably. Fades would likely be reworked as well, as it stands they've got enough escape and dodge mechanics to barely be hit by the average player before getting the first hit off. With Silence, Camo, Blink, or their Shift the NS2 fade would be untouchable if the ability was dropped in right now.
    He is untouchable even now if you want to. It's just that he doesn't make any noticable damage against an armor 2 + sg marine.
    Sure you can blink around and never be hit, but that doesn't really go anywhere.
    Right now the fade is the weakest lifeform as soon as marines have lvl2 upgrades. He can survive and pick up some lonely marines, but he can't fight.
    There are no real arguments against focus. Numbers can be tweaked.

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