By not engaging in 'closed' development, UWE has not only fostered wonderful community engagement, it has also left the door slightly ajar for unscrupulous individuals to damage the play experience of others.
...
Whatever UWE does, however many systems are implemented, and no matter how much time we spend - NS2 will always have hackers. It is a universal truth of all games and it will always be true. As a community, you should consider just how good you want NS2 and future UWE games to get at beating hackers. The path towards a 'hack-free' experience is a path of locking down the game, restricting modding freedom, and certainly no open source game code.
That is not a path anyone at UWE wants to go down. We will certainly explore all reasonable options available to substantially reduce the incidence of hacking ruining games for players, short of walking that path.
...
At this time, hacking does not appear to be widespread or consistently detrimental to the play experience of most players. Other issues, such as performance, balance, gameplay mechanics and ancillary game features would appear to UWE to be more relevant to the in-game experience of most players. That does not mean hacking is not on our radar, nor that anti-cheat efforts are not being actively worked on. It just means that we are not about to declare that the sky is falling in and that tools must be downed in an effort to fight a mild case of a disease that infects all games, everywhere, to some degree.
You do not have to lock down the game to provide an effective anti-cheat system. This is false equivalence and i'm honestly quite disappointed to hear that UWE is behind the curve in their mental framework on this one. I don't think you seem to understand the real issue that I, and many others in this thread are actually trying to get addressed. We want effective tools that allow us to time feasibly enforce our own rulesets. We do not want to fight hack creators.
You used to do accounting, so i'm franky surprised that you don't seem to recognise the huge incentive and accountability issues here. The gate is wide open to almost risk free, if not risk free cheating, such that you shouldn't even be analysing how widespread hacking is. NS2 anti-cheat is in such a bad situation currently that it isn't about whether the sky is falling down or not, but about the sky falling down and no-one being the wiser.
Manual banning: Through the provision of SteamIDs and proof of hacking, people may be banned from official (but not community servers, where most people play.) This method is labour intensive for UWE and suffers from having a 'small antenna' for receiving information.
Consistency checking: Simple verification of the integrity of crucial lua files. This level will top only the most amateur and poorly motivated of cheaters, but is nevertheless important.
VAC: "Valve Anti-Cheat." Periodically, known NS2 hacks are entered into VAC and those that use them end up losing access to the Steam account they are hacking on.
Target size NS2 is a small game with a passionate community. There are no in-game valuables for people to steal, no persistency stats to pad, no currency for people to defraud, and few tangible benefits for hacking. Crucially, many large hacking vendors have chosen not to offer hacks for the game, evidently as the return on their investment would not be competitive.
Openness: What is NS2's weakness is simultaneously its strength. By allowing community server operators to modify their servers as they please, the community can effectively protect itself. Where a large AAA title with locked down servers may leave players helpless, in NS2 they can fight back. Collectively, server operators and players can modify the game in ways that give them better tools for fighting hackers.
- manual banning is not an anti-cheat defense if you lack reliable diagnostic tools. And yes, it is labour intensive because of the large deficiency in those very same tools.
- Consistency checking is not functioning effectively as i detailed in the OP.
- VAC was very specifically not of concern to this thread as it functions independently from ns2 and does not allow server operators/tournament organizers to independently and flexibly enforce their own rulesets. VAC does what VAC does.
- Target size is related to incidence of hacking and i already labelled this position as very close to 'negligent stupidity' in a previous post.
- There is a line between a mod platform empowering creators, and a mod platform subtly outsourcing basic work to free labour. To regurgitate the same openness tagline in the current context is insulting to server operators imo. Expecting server operators to use extremely out of the box solutions, such as running ns2 on ramdisks to reduce consistency check times, or manually copy paste a heap of files over to the server instance every build to ensure proper consistency checking occurs is ridiculous. Most of the time, such as with server rental, lack of a paid client copy of ns2 with all files, or insufficient server resources, these solutions arn't even possible. Literally.
No one at UWE pretends that these defenses are, in aggregate, capable of preventing cheaters. Several areas in which we could do better are
- Default tools for players in servers without an admin present, such as votevick/voteban.
- Universal NS2 IP/SteamID banlists for proven hackers, allowing us to ban players globally independent of VAC
- Improved demo recording functionality
No doubt this list could be expanded with many an excellent suggestion from you, the community. There is however a limit to how much engineering time UWE will devote to preventing hacking in NS2. An equilibrium must be found between programmers playing the hacker's game, and those hackers being given free reign.
I'm shocked to hear that votekick/voteban as a default tool is on the table or even anywhere near.
What we want is simple. Fix the diagnostic tools. We arn't looking to fight hack creators, but hack users. Hard protection against injections and the like are simply bonuses.
- Fixed and improved demo system
- Fixed consistency checking
- Fixed FP spec
- Engine? features allowing random screenshot enforcement mod as per blinds post
*edit*
TL;DR
Hacking and cheating will always be present, in whatever level of incidence. Already fully known and understood. This is why we are asking specifically for improved diagnostic and evidence gathering tools.. This is largely what i mean by anti-cheat. You guys seem to be going about it from anti-hack, and there is a notable difference.
As for Hugh's post I think that shoul be a thread on its own as it shows UWE are looking at the problem and thinking of ways to try to fix it.
I didn't see anything which suggests even a vague commitment to do anything about hacking in short or long term. It reads as a list of things we already know, and in fact he goes so far as to say UWE feels most other development goals are a higher priority.
I don't think you know how pistol scripts work, they simply can't be stopped in any case due to completely legal external stuff publically available. And about threads being deleted, they go into our evidence vault and if there are obvious hacks, reported to the developers. We've said it many times before and it's simply a dumb idea to allow naming and shaming, as it always turns into a witch hunt even when the hacking claim is false. So please stop spreading your misinformation and drawing conclusions on things you can't possibly know... It's not a conspiracy, its just common sense!
And NS never did away with pistol scripts, a maximum rate of fire set at 100ms per bullet is not the way to "fix" it. It only makes it so it is easily achievable without scripts as well. NS2 has the same 100ms per bullet, but there is something funky going on as well. If you want a 100% fix, you go the autofire route for the pistol like TF2. Good luck with that and the community up in here
VAC: "Valve Anti-Cheat." Periodically, known NS2 hacks are entered into VAC and those that use them end up losing access to the Steam account they are hacking on.
Entirely untrue. The only thing an NS2 VAC ban will ban anyone from is NS2. You don't lose your Steam account from hacking in one game.
Oh no, someone made a mistake, seriously Farknut are you just lorking on a clorf, just to try and swoop down to point out someone's mistake?
And NS never did away with pistol scripts, a maximum rate of fire set at 100ms per bullet is not the way to "fix" it. It only makes it so it is easily achievable without scripts as well. NS2 has the same 100ms per bullet, but there is something funky going on as well. If you want a 100% fix, you go the autofire route for the pistol like TF2. Good luck with that and the community up in here
For the rest, I'll redirect you to Hugh's post [/quote]
How does what you have said in any way shape or form devalidate my statement that pistol scripting can be stopped?
Just because you feel a maximum fire rate is not a good solution does not mean its not a solution (its just one thats not ideal).
TF2 went a slightly different path but it is equally a valid solution.
As for Hugh's post I think that shoul be a thread on its own as it shows UWE are looking at the problem and thinking of ways to try to fix it.
This is something that, annoying as it may be, needs to be updated reguarly with any changes.
Sadly being buried in this thread means most people wont see it.
The idea of a confirmed cheats list (assuming steam id's) is a great idea that will solve most of the issues people have.
I have played games long enough to know you will never see a game without them (iddqd anyone) people dont mind seeing cheats in game..if they also see somewhere a list of cheats being banned (even just x number no real details).
<snip>
No one at UWE pretends that these defenses are, in aggregate, capable of preventing cheaters. Several areas in which we could do better are
- Default tools for players in servers without an admin present, such as votevick/voteban.
- Universal NS2 IP/SteamID banlists for proven hackers, allowing us to ban players globally independent of VAC
- Improved demo recording functionality
No doubt this list could be expanded with many an excellent suggestion from you, the community. There is however a limit to how much engineering time UWE will devote to preventing hacking in NS2. An equilibrium must be found between programmers playing the hacker's game, and those hackers being given free reign.
<snip>
@ Khyron This was the part I felt was teh first I have heard UWE talking about things they could do better, the independant list of bans outside of VAC means we could see a community ban list of sorts.
If you are VAC banned in Natural Selection 2, you will no longer be able to Natural Selection 2 on servers that have VAC enabled. There's no real reason to not have VAC enabled on a server though (and we made it the default), so this should include most servers.
Natural Selection 2 contains one additional "anti-cheat" mechanism which Hugh didn't mention. We release updates much more frequently than most games. Some trainers aren't too sensitive to this, but for others it renders them worthless unless they are updated.
We check out all of the published cheats for Natural Selection 2 and almost without exception they contain some sort of malware with them. If you are using these things, not only are you a jerk, but you may be getting more than you bargained for.
You should permanently disable their copies of NS2 for cheating.
I mean really at this point you can un fuck the spectator/record system and leave it to the community, it's what counter strike/NS1 did and it sated all requirements but online tourneys which later on used third party programs like Xray and then EasyAntiCheat (EAC) to randomise and automatically upload screen shots to get checked by 'referees', EAC took off in such a huge way they've gone fully privatised and it's been the bare minimum standard that all online competitions use to be taken seriously, at least in source.
Votekick/ban are touchy subjects that might be a necessary evil for UWE servers to stop griefing but open up a lot of potential abuse just like vote spamming eject comm does now, the few ruining it for the many.
Ban lists are almost always horrible implementations brought on by power hungry admins/mods of servers that inevitably get comp players banned for being good on their server and passing them around causing further bans of innocent people, erupting in forum drama everywhere when normal/good/comp players make threads and the inevitable "well if ur on the ban list u must have been caught hacking" appears. These lists have been implemented 100 times and failed and all rely on server admins being some non feeling all knowing diety who rationally thinks out every action he takes, there's always a human error degree and it always results in innocent people being condemned by the great unwashed.
*snip* No need for that Xao - Mouse
edit: Apologies Hero_Mouse, slayer of boxes, clutcher of rounds.
You can notice the cheater by spectating and see how his aim "snap" to enemys, sometimes before the cheater can see him.
Yesterday there was a cheater, but he wasn't that stupid...
The weird part, i would not notice, but other people notice, so i start spectating him, sadly after 1 minute, right after i start bandicam, he turn his aimbot off. Snip - no name&shame please, PM me or other forum mods if you have evidance of hacking - GISP
Im 99% sure he is a aimbot user, i got a video, but sadly after he turn his aimbot off...yeah you may don't belive, thats why i said "watch" him byyourself, maybe he read this and stop cheating, if not you could check him...sadly everyone see if you are spectator or not so the retarded cheater can simply turn his ab off...
Anyway, since the cheap sale it seems there many aimbot people.
It is so hard to figure out if someone is cheating smart, because if you go spectator, he can simply turn it off, like rainova did.
Who in the world would notice someone is cheating if he die from time to time? NOBODY, if you would cheat smart, nobody would notice you ever.
There should be a anti-cheater script,
I mean do you know how the achievement system works?
Why not doing something like that against cheater.
For example (if it would be possible) the aimbot, i was thinking a lot right now, how it could be checked.
So the script is going to be active(start CHECKING!) if someone has many kills in a short time.
The script checks the mouse acceleration, i mean the mouse can't get faster?
I have no idea how the aimbot works, but i think it speeds up the mouse and snap it to the enemy...i don't know.
Someone should find the aimbot and study it :P
I have no idea how the aimbot works, but i think it speeds up the mouse and snap it to the enemy...i don't know.
Someone should find the aimbot and study it :P
There are aimbots that have smooth mouse movement instead of snapping to a target.
I have no idea how the aimbot works, but i think it speeds up the mouse and snap it to the enemy...i don't know.
Someone should find the aimbot and study it :P
There are aimbots that have smooth mouse movement instead of snapping to a target.
And what are known as wobblebots (have a shake to make the aim look more "natural"
I have no idea how the aimbot works, but i think it speeds up the mouse and snap it to the enemy...i don't know.
Someone should find the aimbot and study it :P
There are aimbots that have smooth mouse movement instead of snapping to a target.
Ah okay, but there must be a way to identify cheater with a script.
The achievementsystem check many activities of a player, there must be a way to use it against cheater.
There is not always a admin and one cheater can screw the whole balance of a game.
It is so sad, there is a cheater in every game and now, they arrived in ns2 and we can do like nothing.
I'll allow this link as it is publically available anyway, but just as an FYI, this cheater is not inv. Joe. It's a case of using the nickname to try and discredit someone -Kouji San
^ Yeah sorry, I should've specified that. In this particular case though, surely you will ban his copy of NS2 and every other copy bought with the same credit card? I mean it's not exactly rocket science when the dude himself is flaunting his aimbots and dll injectors.
Everybody knows about this one by now. I meant I never saw a blatant hacker in a game I was playing in.
I've never seen my house burgled in any memory i can recall, therefore i don't need locks on my doors. Infact, who needs doors at all. Better to put that money towards a new wireless internet fridge.
To try and get back to discussing solutions, here's my thoughts on unfair textures. I'm thinking that a whitelist is probably going to have to happen. Consistency checking would be put in place for the default materials (if its not already). Any mod that adds alternate textures would be checked against a whitelist, and if found, a way to verify the files would be used. I'd like to think a checksum would work here, compared against an online list with each published version of a mod to allow for people using obsolete mods. The only issue is that I don't know how long it takes to gather a checksum from multiple files of various sizes, and if such a method raises launch or load time immensely, its not worth the user frustration.
The main idea for the whitelist in the first place is that people like to use custom skins. Games from both GoldSrc and Source are heavy with this, and NS2's open nature seems to be pushing for Counter-Strike levels of modding, if not beyond. Most of the custom textures in the workshop are for aesthetic purposes only, and do little to improve visibility. An outright ban on all custom textures would certainly be a good movement against unfair textures, but it would be better if we could single out the ones we don't like.
One other note. In the interest of trimming down the scope of consistency checking where possible, there is no need, in my opinion, to check for view models. The worst I'd imagine one could do is make their weapons invisible, and the only thing I see that affecting is visibility when reloading the flamethrower. Along side that, I don't really see any point in checking nearly any marine texture, since the aliens' hive vision makes all marine players, structures, and AI units glow, and with no downsides. The only exception is if mods can add custom illumination, because if a whole room glows pink when a phase gate is in it, we would have a problem.
<snip>
No one at UWE pretends that these defenses are, in aggregate, capable of preventing cheaters. Several areas in which we could do better are
- Default tools for players in servers without an admin present, such as votevick/voteban.
- Universal NS2 IP/SteamID banlists for proven hackers, allowing us to ban players globally independent of VAC
- Improved demo recording functionality
No doubt this list could be expanded with many an excellent suggestion from you, the community. There is however a limit to how much engineering time UWE will devote to preventing hacking in NS2. An equilibrium must be found between programmers playing the hacker's game, and those hackers being given free reign.
<snip>
@ Khyron This was the part I felt was teh first I have heard UWE talking about things they could do better, the independant list of bans outside of VAC means we could see a community ban list of sorts.
Practically any reliable banlist is still going to rely on precise 1st person specating and demos. You have to see things properly and preferrably even pick up some decent evindence before you go swinging your banhammer all over the place.
No matter how you look around, the 1st person spec and demos are vital diagnostic tools and consistency is probably the best way to put a clear limit to abusive customization. Once those are provided, the community is actually able start building anti-cheat infrastructure further.
I've never seen my house burgled in any memory i can recall, therefore i don't need locks on my doors. Infact, who needs doors at all. Better to put that money towards a new wireless internet fridge.
Just because there are some burglars out there in the world, doesn't mean you should get barred windows, security doors, surveillance systems and a panic room as soon as possible. I can play that game too.
You have taken the time to think about this issue in depth @Elodea, in return I've written you an in-depth reply:
Natural Selection 2 is an extremely open game. The source code is open, modification of the game is encouraged and actively supported, and tools are provided to assist people in doing so. In this way, it is perhaps a throwback to an earlier time, a more innocent age of gaming. The modern trend in game is certainly to be more closed, less inviting to community creativity, and perhaps less soulful.
Oftentimes, people will equate the locking down of games as being only about Digital Rights Management (DRM), that is; an attempt to stop your hard work ending up on the Pirate Bay. A certain recent big budget game from a particular big publically traded publisher is perhaps a shining example of this. This equation is however a simplification. There is another motivation for locking down games: Cheating.
Closing down a game, narrowing the avenues for people to engage with it in non-standard ways, eliminating entry points for modification, regular authentication from a third entity: These serve both DRM and anti-cheat purposes. By not engaging in 'closed' development, UWE has not only fostered wonderful community engagement, it has also left the door slightly ajar for unscrupulous individuals to damage the play experience of others.
This thread (like a lot) is so sad... not because of the post of elodea, no, but because of people that are totally off topic.
At first I though "oh no, not a topic on cheats again", but after reading it entirely, it was finally a great post and not at all about cheats, but about the tools NS2 have (or don't), to help admin and players to detect cheaters.
Elodea is not really talking about anti-cheat features like VAC or anything like that, that prevent cheaters in the game, but he was talking about the official TOOLS available to the community. And he has fair points... but sadly nobody really stayed on the subject, even Hugh post was off topic.
In fact no, only Elodea is off-topic, it seems that he is nearly the only one not talking about the same thing as everyone else in this topic
What Uwe should have state, is if the tools are going to be improved, things like consistency checking (easiest and legal way of cheating, you can just do it without any fear of losing anything or getting caught, everybody can do it), demo recording that are not really usable as it is now, same for first person spectating, or implementing new ones like random screenshots (especially for leagues).
No one at UWE pretends that these defenses are, in aggregate, capable of preventing cheaters. Several areas in which we could do better are
- Default tools for players in servers without an admin present, such as votevick/voteban.
- Universal NS2 IP/SteamID banlists for proven hackers, allowing us to ban players globally independent of VAC
- Improved demo recording functionality - Improved consistency checking to stop the majority of "legal" cheat.
- Improved first person spectating to be more accurate
- Random screenshots?
I don't think you know how pistol scripts work, they simply can't be stopped in any case due to completely legal external stuff publically available. And about threads being deleted, they go into our evidence vault and if there are obvious hacks, reported to the developers. We've said it many times before and it's simply a dumb idea to allow naming and shaming, as it always turns into a witch hunt even when the hacking claim is false. So please stop spreading your misinformation and drawing conclusions on things you can't possibly know... It's not a conspiracy, its just common sense!
And NS never did away with pistol scripts, a maximum rate of fire set at 100ms per bullet is not the way to "fix" it. It only makes it so it is easily achievable without scripts as well. NS2 has the same 100ms per bullet, but there is something funky going on as well. If you want a 100% fix, you go the autofire route for the pistol like TF2. Good luck with that and the community up in here
VAC: "Valve Anti-Cheat." Periodically, known NS2 hacks are entered into VAC and those that use them end up losing access to the Steam account they are hacking on.
Entirely untrue. The only thing an NS2 VAC ban will ban anyone from is NS2. You don't lose your Steam account from hacking in one game.
Oh no, someone made a mistake, seriously Farknut are you just lorking on a clorf, just to try and swoop down to point out someone's mistake?
And NS never did away with pistol scripts, a maximum rate of fire set at 100ms per bullet is not the way to "fix" it. It only makes it so it is easily achievable without scripts as well. NS2 has the same 100ms per bullet, but there is something funky going on as well. If you want a 100% fix, you go the autofire route for the pistol like TF2. Good luck with that and the community up in here
How does what you have said in any way shape or form devalidate my statement that pistol scripting can be stopped?
Just because you feel a maximum fire rate is not a good solution does not mean its not a solution (its just one thats not ideal).
TF2 went a slightly different path but it is equally a valid solution.
Kouji never said that it was not a good solution, nor a solution at all. You are saying exactly what he is saying actually. Fixed fire rate is the way to go, even though it is not ideal and will not fix the problem entirely. TF2 did something to fix it too, but is not really/necessarily the way to go for NS2.
(look at the beginning of this same post)
There were HL hacks that would detect when screenshots were about to be taken and turn everything off before taking the screenshot, I wouldn't be surprised if the same could be done for NS2.
The same way the inject hack pulls all the information from the loaded memory and uses the injected.dll to render all sent/received models in solid colours, people get their hands on the anti cheat, play with it on for 4 minutes, find the instance of the anti cheat activating and then sending the command for a screenshot and capture it and then code around it, at some point the anti cheat will be sending a timer or set countdown on being run for the 'random' screenshot, each update becomes a giant cat and mouse game as to whether the developer can hide their information sent from client/server better and the anti cheat devises new ways to send the commands once the hacks can claim "VAC free, EAC free". It basically boils down to how lazy the code is for each side with the hackers wanting to constantly one upping the anti cheat and whether the anti cheat is simply gonna re arrange the code, catch out lazy people who didn't check for updates and claim their system worked every time or constantly re invent their method.
I believe what Hugh mentions that 99% of the experts in this thread aren't picking up is their exact method of sending server/client data isn't the most secure because it was established on a more open source development tool, they feel the people who _really_ and most likely privately take up hacking in NS 2 will get away with it regardless of their efforts just like they have every other online FPS that has spent a fuck load more money specifically developing anti cheat technology like PunkBuster or by incorporating and maintaining systems like VAC. These people have broken every other system invented and UWE sees it as fruitless to bash their head against that wall too, they will probably look to improve on spectating as it is the best developer/community tool any game has for constantly observing, recording and catching hackers.
There's plenty of private Call of Duty hacks that are streamable as well, not counting the easy ones used in Autohotkey for recoil and autofire, you'd have some experience with that tho.
How does what you have said in any way shape or form devalidate my statement that pistol scripting can be stopped?
Just because you feel a maximum fire rate is not a good solution does not mean its not a solution (its just one thats not ideal).
TF2 went a slightly different path but it is equally a valid solution.
Obviously it wasn't a response to counter yours... I was just quoting myself because I already touched on that subject and you missed it, what with it being in another post. Also I personally not a against"fixing" it using the TF2 autofire mode implementation, but it really depends on the max fire rate and comes with it's own set of problems as well...
Setting it to autofire 100ms (NS(2) speed), it brings everyone up to the point of "pro mouse clicking" :P
Setting it to autofire 150ms or even 200ms will disable burst fire mode for those dire situations.
Keeping it at manual fire with a max of 100ms still gives "pro mouse clickers" an edge and adds some depth to the pistol firing.
This manual fire rate issue has been on the table for, well probably for over a decade now (other games as well). And it's true that autofire is a "fix". But in effect it also lowers the skill ceiling to a small extent, something that is frowned upon in this community.
...That's...really impressive, how can it know when prntscrn is pressed (before it is)
You can just install a low level Windows keyboard hook and intercept the key message. We had to do something like this in Natural Selection 1 to work around and issue where the Half-Life menu would open when you pressed ESC in the commander mode (we wanted it to cancel the building placement instead).
We are working on improvements to some of the areas described in this thread, but when it comes to technical things, I prefer to just do them than make a bunch of promises. "Talk is cheap" so to speak, and at the same time also manages to waste a lot of valuable time that could be spent on action.
I don't care if we don't hear about it, and I'm sure you aren't completely ignoring the issue, I KNOW you're working on improving the demo system, so I'm pretty much happy to leave you to it and in the meantime we will have to live with admins banning players from their servers even if they THINK they're hacking (they ARE their servers afterall).
Thanks, Max. Hopefully you heard Elodea's message through all the noise here: What tools and improvement the community feels it needs to better police cheating.
VAC: "Valve Anti-Cheat." Periodically, known NS2 hacks are entered into VAC and those that use them end up losing access to the Steam account they are hacking on.
Entirely untrue. The only thing an NS2 VAC ban will ban anyone from is NS2. You don't lose your Steam account from hacking in one game.
What he meant was that on that Steam account you can no longer play NS2.
How does what you have said in any way shape or form devalidate my statement that pistol scripting can be stopped?
Just because you feel a maximum fire rate is not a good solution does not mean its not a solution (its just one thats not ideal).
TF2 went a slightly different path but it is equally a valid solution.
Obviously it wasn't a response to counter yours... I was just quoting myself because I already touched on that subject and you missed it, what with it being in another post. Also I personally not a against"fixing" it using the TF2 autofire mode implementation, but it really depends on the max fire rate and comes with it's own set of problems as well...
Setting it to autofire 100ms (NS(2) speed), it brings everyone up to the point of "pro mouse clicking" :P
Setting it to autofire 150ms or even 200ms will disable burst fire mode for those dire situations.
Keeping it at manual fire with a max of 100ms still gives "pro mouse clickers" an edge and adds some depth to the pistol firing.
This manual fire rate issue has been on the table for, well probably for over a decade now (other games as well). And it's true that autofire is a "fix". But in effect it also lowers the skill ceiling to a small extent, something that is frowned upon in this community.
Sorry it read as if it was a counter, the issue with pistol scripts is not that its automated so much as its gives an unrealistic advantage.
If we believe the pro players out there need a lower limit then perhaps have a server setting that drops it form say 200 to 100, sos pub players have a limit of 200 ms and comp servers can adjust up to 100 ms.
200ms is about as fast as you can fire a manual fire paintball marker and seems like a fair starting point for general play.
Having a higher ROF on comps will still allow for the pro players to play at their top level...but limits their effectiveness when playing on general pubs.
I would rather not see an autofire come in but would like to see some more limits on teh ROF achievable as currently the 100ms limit I dont believe is enough for general pub play.
Most people wont ever click/shoot faster than 7-8 times a second so having hte maximum set to 10 seems to incentivise people to use a macro to achieve this top rate.
Comments
243 and 244 combined with the free weekend have changed the game more since release than gorgeous did.
You used to do accounting, so i'm franky surprised that you don't seem to recognise the huge incentive and accountability issues here. The gate is wide open to almost risk free, if not risk free cheating, such that you shouldn't even be analysing how widespread hacking is. NS2 anti-cheat is in such a bad situation currently that it isn't about whether the sky is falling down or not, but about the sky falling down and no-one being the wiser.
- manual banning is not an anti-cheat defense if you lack reliable diagnostic tools. And yes, it is labour intensive because of the large deficiency in those very same tools.
- Consistency checking is not functioning effectively as i detailed in the OP.
- VAC was very specifically not of concern to this thread as it functions independently from ns2 and does not allow server operators/tournament organizers to independently and flexibly enforce their own rulesets. VAC does what VAC does.
- Target size is related to incidence of hacking and i already labelled this position as very close to 'negligent stupidity' in a previous post.
- There is a line between a mod platform empowering creators, and a mod platform subtly outsourcing basic work to free labour. To regurgitate the same openness tagline in the current context is insulting to server operators imo. Expecting server operators to use extremely out of the box solutions, such as running ns2 on ramdisks to reduce consistency check times, or manually copy paste a heap of files over to the server instance every build to ensure proper consistency checking occurs is ridiculous. Most of the time, such as with server rental, lack of a paid client copy of ns2 with all files, or insufficient server resources, these solutions arn't even possible. Literally.
I'm shocked to hear that votekick/voteban as a default tool is on the table or even anywhere near.
What we want is simple. Fix the diagnostic tools. We arn't looking to fight hack creators, but hack users. Hard protection against injections and the like are simply bonuses.
- Fixed and improved demo system
- Fixed consistency checking
- Fixed FP spec
- Engine? features allowing random screenshot enforcement mod as per blinds post
*edit*
TL;DR
Hacking and cheating will always be present, in whatever level of incidence. Already fully known and understood. This is why we are asking specifically for improved diagnostic and evidence gathering tools.. This is largely what i mean by anti-cheat. You guys seem to be going about it from anti-hack, and there is a notable difference.
How does what you have said in any way shape or form devalidate my statement that pistol scripting can be stopped?
Just because you feel a maximum fire rate is not a good solution does not mean its not a solution (its just one thats not ideal).
TF2 went a slightly different path but it is equally a valid solution.
As for Hugh's post I think that shoul be a thread on its own as it shows UWE are looking at the problem and thinking of ways to try to fix it.
This is something that, annoying as it may be, needs to be updated reguarly with any changes.
Sadly being buried in this thread means most people wont see it.
The idea of a confirmed cheats list (assuming steam id's) is a great idea that will solve most of the issues people have.
I have played games long enough to know you will never see a game without them (iddqd anyone) people dont mind seeing cheats in game..if they also see somewhere a list of cheats being banned (even just x number no real details).
You should permanently disable their copies of NS2 for cheating.
Edit:
I just read Hugh's post, apparently you do.
Votekick/ban are touchy subjects that might be a necessary evil for UWE servers to stop griefing but open up a lot of potential abuse just like vote spamming eject comm does now, the few ruining it for the many.
Ban lists are almost always horrible implementations brought on by power hungry admins/mods of servers that inevitably get comp players banned for being good on their server and passing them around causing further bans of innocent people, erupting in forum drama everywhere when normal/good/comp players make threads and the inevitable "well if ur on the ban list u must have been caught hacking" appears. These lists have been implemented 100 times and failed and all rely on server admins being some non feeling all knowing diety who rationally thinks out every action he takes, there's always a human error degree and it always results in innocent people being condemned by the great unwashed.
*snip* No need for that Xao - Mouse
edit: Apologies Hero_Mouse, slayer of boxes, clutcher of rounds.
Yesterday there was a cheater, but he wasn't that stupid...
The weird part, i would not notice, but other people notice, so i start spectating him, sadly after 1 minute, right after i start bandicam, he turn his aimbot off.
Snip - no name&shame please, PM me or other forum mods if you have evidance of hacking - GISP
Im 99% sure he is a aimbot user, i got a video, but sadly after he turn his aimbot off...yeah you may don't belive, thats why i said "watch" him byyourself, maybe he read this and stop cheating, if not you could check him...sadly everyone see if you are spectator or not so the retarded cheater can simply turn his ab off...
Anyway, since the cheap sale it seems there many aimbot people.
It is so hard to figure out if someone is cheating smart, because if you go spectator, he can simply turn it off, like rainova did.
Who in the world would notice someone is cheating if he die from time to time? NOBODY, if you would cheat smart, nobody would notice you ever.
There should be a anti-cheater script,
I mean do you know how the achievement system works?
Why not doing something like that against cheater.
For example (if it would be possible) the aimbot, i was thinking a lot right now, how it could be checked.
So the script is going to be active(start CHECKING!) if someone has many kills in a short time.
The script checks the mouse acceleration, i mean the mouse can't get faster?
I have no idea how the aimbot works, but i think it speeds up the mouse and snap it to the enemy...i don't know.
Someone should find the aimbot and study it :P
There are aimbots that have smooth mouse movement instead of snapping to a target.
And what are known as wobblebots (have a shake to make the aim look more "natural"
The achievementsystem check many activities of a player, there must be a way to use it against cheater.
There is not always a admin and one cheater can screw the whole balance of a game.
It is so sad, there is a cheater in every game and now, they arrived in ns2 and we can do like nothing.
Everybody knows about this one by now. I meant I never saw a blatant hacker in a game I was playing in.
The main idea for the whitelist in the first place is that people like to use custom skins. Games from both GoldSrc and Source are heavy with this, and NS2's open nature seems to be pushing for Counter-Strike levels of modding, if not beyond. Most of the custom textures in the workshop are for aesthetic purposes only, and do little to improve visibility. An outright ban on all custom textures would certainly be a good movement against unfair textures, but it would be better if we could single out the ones we don't like.
One other note. In the interest of trimming down the scope of consistency checking where possible, there is no need, in my opinion, to check for view models. The worst I'd imagine one could do is make their weapons invisible, and the only thing I see that affecting is visibility when reloading the flamethrower. Along side that, I don't really see any point in checking nearly any marine texture, since the aliens' hive vision makes all marine players, structures, and AI units glow, and with no downsides. The only exception is if mods can add custom illumination, because if a whole room glows pink when a phase gate is in it, we would have a problem.
No matter how you look around, the 1st person spec and demos are vital diagnostic tools and consistency is probably the best way to put a clear limit to abusive customization. Once those are provided, the community is actually able start building anti-cheat infrastructure further.
Just because there are some burglars out there in the world, doesn't mean you should get barred windows, security doors, surveillance systems and a panic room as soon as possible. I can play that game too.
Illogical fluff-talk.
Hardly. Proper demo and spectating functions? Come on.
At first I though "oh no, not a topic on cheats again", but after reading it entirely, it was finally a great post and not at all about cheats, but about the tools NS2 have (or don't), to help admin and players to detect cheaters.
Elodea is not really talking about anti-cheat features like VAC or anything like that, that prevent cheaters in the game, but he was talking about the official TOOLS available to the community. And he has fair points... but sadly nobody really stayed on the subject, even Hugh post was off topic.
In fact no, only Elodea is off-topic, it seems that he is nearly the only one not talking about the same thing as everyone else in this topic
What Uwe should have state, is if the tools are going to be improved, things like consistency checking (easiest and legal way of cheating, you can just do it without any fear of losing anything or getting caught, everybody can do it), demo recording that are not really usable as it is now, same for first person spectating, or implementing new ones like random screenshots (especially for leagues).
Kouji never said that it was not a good solution, nor a solution at all. You are saying exactly what he is saying actually. Fixed fire rate is the way to go, even though it is not ideal and will not fix the problem entirely. TF2 did something to fix it too, but is not really/necessarily the way to go for NS2.
(look at the beginning of this same post)
EDIT: Btw you can't turn off the current chams once they're injected, they stay on til you restart the game.
The same way the inject hack pulls all the information from the loaded memory and uses the injected.dll to render all sent/received models in solid colours, people get their hands on the anti cheat, play with it on for 4 minutes, find the instance of the anti cheat activating and then sending the command for a screenshot and capture it and then code around it, at some point the anti cheat will be sending a timer or set countdown on being run for the 'random' screenshot, each update becomes a giant cat and mouse game as to whether the developer can hide their information sent from client/server better and the anti cheat devises new ways to send the commands once the hacks can claim "VAC free, EAC free". It basically boils down to how lazy the code is for each side with the hackers wanting to constantly one upping the anti cheat and whether the anti cheat is simply gonna re arrange the code, catch out lazy people who didn't check for updates and claim their system worked every time or constantly re invent their method.
I believe what Hugh mentions that 99% of the experts in this thread aren't picking up is their exact method of sending server/client data isn't the most secure because it was established on a more open source development tool, they feel the people who _really_ and most likely privately take up hacking in NS 2 will get away with it regardless of their efforts just like they have every other online FPS that has spent a fuck load more money specifically developing anti cheat technology like PunkBuster or by incorporating and maintaining systems like VAC. These people have broken every other system invented and UWE sees it as fruitless to bash their head against that wall too, they will probably look to improve on spectating as it is the best developer/community tool any game has for constantly observing, recording and catching hackers.
There's plenty of private Call of Duty hacks that are streamable as well, not counting the easy ones used in Autohotkey for recoil and autofire, you'd have some experience with that tho.
Obviously it wasn't a response to counter yours... I was just quoting myself because I already touched on that subject and you missed it, what with it being in another post. Also I personally not a against"fixing" it using the TF2 autofire mode implementation, but it really depends on the max fire rate and comes with it's own set of problems as well...
This manual fire rate issue has been on the table for, well probably for over a decade now (other games as well). And it's true that autofire is a "fix". But in effect it also lowers the skill ceiling to a small extent, something that is frowned upon in this community.
We are working on improvements to some of the areas described in this thread, but when it comes to technical things, I prefer to just do them than make a bunch of promises. "Talk is cheap" so to speak, and at the same time also manages to waste a lot of valuable time that could be spent on action.
What he meant was that on that Steam account you can no longer play NS2.
Sorry it read as if it was a counter, the issue with pistol scripts is not that its automated so much as its gives an unrealistic advantage.
If we believe the pro players out there need a lower limit then perhaps have a server setting that drops it form say 200 to 100, sos pub players have a limit of 200 ms and comp servers can adjust up to 100 ms.
200ms is about as fast as you can fire a manual fire paintball marker and seems like a fair starting point for general play.
Having a higher ROF on comps will still allow for the pro players to play at their top level...but limits their effectiveness when playing on general pubs.
I would rather not see an autofire come in but would like to see some more limits on teh ROF achievable as currently the 100ms limit I dont believe is enough for general pub play.
Most people wont ever click/shoot faster than 7-8 times a second so having hte maximum set to 10 seems to incentivise people to use a macro to achieve this top rate.