When are these changes supposed to be implemented? Sometime in April, I hope?
Some of these are huge and I will reserve judgment until they are added, but I have to say, I'm looking very forward to the "gain P.RES. while dead" change. Finally, xenocide will be useful!
I believe after the LAN, the features that are liked most will go into a smaller BT, and then from there after tweaking they will make their way into the official game
Well about half of the changes could be already in the game And some of them already are. Any possible ETA for that smaller BT? I want install that right away to saunamen server and give proper feedback :P There is so many good changes which will give so much depth to this game
When are these changes supposed to be implemented? Sometime in April, I hope?
Some of these are huge and I will reserve judgment until they are added, but I have to say, I'm looking very forward to the "gain P.RES. while dead" change. Finally, xenocide will be useful!
I believe after the LAN, the features that are liked most will go into a smaller BT, and then from there after tweaking they will make their way into the official game
Well about half of the changes could be already in the game And some of them already are. Any possible ETA for that smaller BT? I want install that right away to saunamen server and give proper feedback :P There is so many good changes which will give so much depth to this game
No idea on this, all I know is sometime after the lan. I'm sure it'll be announced here
Not sure about Nano Armor's "out of combat" is calculated. For aliens is "out of combat" usually stopped as soon as they start to use an attack. For marines combat only seems to start when they get hit, not when they fire.
Also, Parasite seems to be a bit buggy. I rarely get to see any outline once I parasited a marine, so I also can't see him through walls anymore. He only shows up on the minimap, but that can't be the sole purpose of the Parasite.
Also, Parasite seems to be a bit buggy. I rarely get to see any outline once I parasited a marine, so I also can't see him through walls anymore. He only shows up on the minimap, but that can't be the sole purpose of the Parasite.
Could be distance problem... try to spike marines in long distances like in tram hub,summit crevice etc
As for the infestation changes, I am still not very fond of them.
Infestation should still have another purpose than "aliens can build stuff on it, cast some abilities on it and allows Gorges to slide faster".
There were more things that it could do, but the infestation itself has been nerfed every now and then in the past. No more healing advantage on it, no more detection of marines that walk on it and now no more blocking of structures on it. The fun gardening mechanic became pretty pointless.
I'd really like to see some buffs to it again, especially since the latest changes to the cysts fixed some issues that might have existed with previous incarnations of those features before. It is much less troublesome for marines to quickly clear infestation in a wide area away since there are less but equally vulnerable cysts that take longer to rebuild once taken out and faster receding infestation.
If marines want to establish a forward base, they can quickly get rid of the infestation instead of having to wait as long as in vanilla, so I don't think marines should be able to build structures the same way on infestation as on normal ground without repercussions. There should be some downside to the ninja attempt. Some suggestions:
- Structures built on infestation start without armor and can't get any armor until the infestation is cleared away, so it's easier for all aliens to combat intruders in their territory.
- Structures on infestation take additional damage from Bile Bomb, so Gorges and Whips can get rid faster of intruders.
- Building structures on infestation takes longer than on normal ground (instead of just stopping the build process as in vanilla), so aliens have more time to react when they spot the intruder.
To revive a previous feature:
-Foresight should be possible on enemies on infestation, but only if they sprint or are in an Exo (both cause shockwaves that are big enough for the khammander to "feel" through the infestation network - regular footsteps, crouching or firing a weapon are not causing a big enough impact and ARCs only have smooth tread movement). So marines can still sneak up unnoticed if they want, but at the cost of being limited to slower movement methods until they get jetpacks.
Oh, you won't be getting away that easy with your latest changelog, you rogue!
- gorges move now 20% faster on infestation
While a nice gesture, I think the Gorges on infestation have always been the least significant use of it.
Gorges move faster on infestation at all time? Or only while bellysliding? I hope for the second one, it would be very funny and "logic".
And we saw in the beta that that kind of "buff" have its "debuff" part at the same time when you are not on the infestation, and can lead to a lot of frustration (same as Celerity in combat).
What I wrote a looooooooong time ago about infestation ( @Sewlek ) :
- About the infestation and it’s connection with the Hive, I see the infestation like a continuance of the Hive, so if a marine walk on the infestation the Hive should "feel" it and then report it to his fellow aliens. It was a little overpowered with the first Hivesight I think, but I like the idea or something similar, the Hive should feel them. Perhaps not showing them entirely, but displaying something moving on the infestation. A "feeling".
- Aliens structure could heal slowly when on a connected infestation. Or a healing “wave” going from the Hive, through the Cysts, then the structures. Right now the structures just don't heal at all.
Infestation showing marines was horrible. Scouting marine pressure groups should require some game knowledge, effort and skill.
Hence why the limitation in my suggestion that it only should show sprinting marines or Exos. So marines can mostly avoid the detection if they sacrifice some mobility. And only in the form of the dark cloud that the khammander will only notice if he tends to look at that spot of infestation in that moment.
Just curious, why exactly is the movement of say fades, lerks, and marines being reworked? To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with how they play in vanilla NS2. The only problem child imo is the skulk.
Just curious, why exactly is the movement of say fades, lerks, and marines being reworked? To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with how they play in vanilla NS2. The only problem child imo is the skulk.
Changing server friction/gravity changes everything I'd assume
However I have no idea if they can be individually tweaked per class, but assuming it's one server variable all things will change. The new fade is still pretty tough to use before getting shadowstep (similar to the current fade, you need to learn the curve before becoming really effective with it) once he gets shadowstep (which will be later in the match) it feels like a complete powerhouse, something that really feels like it should be between a lerk and an onos. That shadowstep is DEADLY
As for marines, they can jump a bit higher (I think the reasoning was more freedom) now you can do stuff like jump on a power node :P
My only real concern is now that skulks can bhop (which is awesome) they will be able to navigate the map so fast that I'm not sure how marines will be able to respond to RTs early on (assuming you're facing 5 experienced skulks) something I have yet to see, but the new jetpacks can be gotten on one CC and the new jetpacks are pretty fast, so maybe that's the response to the new skulks. (not to mention the lerks) you should totally try it out if you haven't already
That aside, now that getting com points is so important, it should make fighting over them that much more important to the outcome, cause lose everything and the other team will begin to snowball (hence RTS control of map/resources) a very positive change in my opinion
If marines want to establish a forward base, they can quickly get rid of the infestation instead of having to wait as long as in vanilla, so I don't think marines should be able to build structures the same way on infestation as on normal ground without repercussions. There should be some downside to the ninja attempt. Some suggestions:
- Structures built on infestation start without armor and can't get any armor until the infestation is cleared away, so it's easier for all aliens to combat intruders in their territory.
- Structures on infestation take additional damage from Bile Bomb, so Gorges and Whips can get rid faster of intruders.
- Building structures on infestation takes longer than on normal ground (instead of just stopping the build process as in vanilla), so aliens have more time to react when they spot the intruder.
To revive a previous feature:
-Foresight should be possible on enemies on infestation, but only if they sprint or are in an Exo (both cause shockwaves that are big enough for the khammander to "feel" through the infestation network - regular footsteps, crouching or firing a weapon are not causing a big enough impact and ARCs only have smooth tread movement). So marines can still sneak up unnoticed if they want, but at the cost of being limited to slower movement methods until they get jetpacks.
I think something to consider is some of these suggestions as research options for khamm.
On to my suggestion for at least this mod,
First an example:
Counter balance the nano armour regen with infestation upgrade that saps armour over time(inc buildings), wouldn't effect marines much if at all if it saps at a slower rate than nano armour regens. It's not much but it's something and the numbers can always be made to fit.
This allows marines a period of time where their structures are less effected by infestation.
You can also use it to give aliens some kind of defenders advantage like the marines get.
This would be an example of tech struggles the commanders should have.
They should be more direct via longer research times for (new,reintroduced) game changing upgrades.
They'd need to be contained in new structures that continue the research they were part way through when rebuilt at a token res cost.
You can balance the structures by the ease/difficulty of destroying them and the time it takes to place another down or build. For example losing it might only slow your research time by 10, 20, or 30 seconds or so, and it would be more difficult for the team to take out a second time.
Alternatively put them in current structures you want to add importance to.
It gives both teams a new useful objective other than kill harvesters/extractors, new, more in depth strategies for the comms (your research is about to finish, send your guys in to delay theirs ten seconds just as yours finishes)
They should however not be game winning advantages. Just a slight advantage for a definable time.
I think commanding for either team would be more dynamic with a more defined early, mid and late game than there currently is in the game and this would add to that.
Just curious, why exactly is the movement of say fades, lerks, and marines being reworked? To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with how they play in vanilla NS2. The only problem child imo is the skulk.
there isn't too much difference for lerk and marine. they feel like a more responsive version of their vanilla ns2 counterpart, which is a good thing imo.
granted the fade make-over is a lot different to vanilla; obviously creating waves with people who are happy with vanilla fade. however, imo vanilla fade has never been anything more than a clumsy, hardy variation of the lerk. marines are not threatened by the fade's unique abilities per se, which can't be working as intended.
i can't really comment on fade balance in BT, but it feels far stronger than vanilla at low skill level and a fair bit stronger at high skill level. at least, buying a shotgun isn't an automatic immunity to fade. not to mention the greater control/potency emphasising the importance of blink/shadowstep; means you rarely see a fade without a streaks of blue smoke :P
The whole game is faster skill wise, and requires better tracking now (I'm all for that)
... I feel the game is getting to a more competitive/faster stage with these changes
I just wanted to comment in general about the changes, and this quote sums up a good observation, but also highlights a concern I have. (This post is NOT related to the armory change.)
Although there are many changes that look quite interesting, I find myself quite concerned at the direction it is going in.
While the skill ceiling is being raised, the skill floor is being raised significantly. IMHO, in a game without a trainer, this is unwise. The spread between those who know how to play and new players will only increase to the point where new players will quickly become lost the moment they step into the game. There seems to be very little attention given to how 'new' and 'average' players will be impacted by these changes. Many of the changes that involve personal per-life 'costs' will quickly become a tax on those players. (since they die more often) Others will make the game move even faster than before, which was fast to begin with. Yet others make units more fragile.
These changes will make the game harder to play. In general that's all fine and good as I enjoy a challenge. The problem is that new players will be hit with a learning curve that is getting close to that of Eve Online. (a graph of that kind of curve can be found here.) Is that really what people want?
While making a pile of experienced players happy is great, that's not going to sell more copies. Perhaps that's something people would be wise to keep in mind.
Some of these changes actually make the base game more intuitive, and easier to learn. Increasing the skill ceiling does nothing to the skill floor, and improving both the learning curve and the experience for new/casual players is diffently something that is both being considered and improved upon. Regarding the speed of the game and pacing, there are some incorrect statements there, and also I think some confusion. The speed of units in combat was never 'to fast' only 'to unpredictable'. Skill based movement is intended to add speed via predictable movement, which is how the mod works currently. This has little impact on low level play as both the skulk will not be using those mechanics, and the marine will not need to aim as fast. Saying these changes are intended to alienate lower skill players is both false and ignorant, such comments are not needed in this discussion.
Some of these changes actually make the base game more intuitive, and easier to learn. Increasing the skill ceiling does nothing to the skill floor
I never said it did, but BOTH have been raised.
Saying these changes are intended to alienate lower skill players is both false and ignorant, such comments are not needed in this discussion.
I said no such thing, and I defy you to quote me where I have said as such. My post is unedited, so please, go right ahead. Please don't put words in my mouth and attack me for it, that's just plain rude and uncalled for.
What I have said is, "There seems to be very little attention given to how 'new' and 'average' players will be impacted by these changes." In other words, there hasn't been any direct intent to "alienate lower skill players" since no one has actually considered how these changes impact them. There is no 'intent' at all, people just aren't considering how this will impact those players. They are only focused on how these changes will impact them - the experienced players.
This WILL increase the skill floor. Now whether there are any plans to mitigate the impact this will have on those players is something I'm not aware of, but people would be wise to give it some thought.
Comparing the game's learning curve to Eve Online (really?) and saying its not going to 'sell more copies' sounds like alienating new players to me. Many of the changes in the mod are aimed at making mechanics more intuitive and easy to learn, thereby lowering the skill floor. I cannot think of a single change in this mod currently that increases the skill floor, except for maybe a couple of the recent experimental changes like upgrade pres costs.
aeroripperJoin Date: 2005-02-25Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
These changes will make the game harder to play. In general that's all fine and good as I enjoy a challenge. The problem is that new players will be hit with a learning curve that is getting close to that of Eve Online. (a graph of that kind of curve can be found here.) Is that really what people want?
in my experience, the skill floor seems lower if not the same, and BT welder is about as common as vanilla so it's not accurate to call it a 'tax' either (not to mention the fact that you can pick them back up off the floor anyway).
you seem to be confusing skill floor with a situation where the other team is full of professionals. you're leaning towards an awful change like handicapping the good players.
It seems like there's some confusion of terms here - my understanding is that the skill floor being raised means that unskilled players have a higher baseline effectiveness. For instance, glancing bites raised the skill floor.
It seems like there's some confusion of terms here
That may be the case, so I'll clarify. My reference to skill floor is the base level of player skill needed for an individual to play a game at a level which allows them to be 'competitive'. Or in short, how 'easy' the game is. I know there are some who define it differently, and that's fine too. I'd rather not get into a debate about definitions though. My basic point was that the game is becoming 'harder to play' overall. As such, that will make it that much harder to integrate new players into the game before they become discouraged and demoralized.
Comparing the game's learning curve to Eve Online (really?) and saying its not going to 'sell more copies' sounds like alienating new players to me.
You seem to be missing INTENT. Alienation requires INTENT, and I never suggested there was any intent to alienate users. Again, if you want to attack me, do it for what I have said, and not for made up things. Pick something I write, quote it, and then reply. Don't put lies into my mouth and try to pass it off as if I have said it. It's rude and uncalled for.
Many of the changes in the mod are aimed at making mechanics more intuitive and easy to learn, thereby lowering the skill floor.
Name them. By all means. Please list all the new EZ mode changes in the mod.
Simple example, I'm seeing changes that make marines easier to kill. Like the massive EXO nerfs (the base EXO now starts with the same effective health as an A3 marine and can be killed in 4 bites by a skulk. LOL!) the armor repair change, the arms lab cost increases, medpack cost increased by 50% - I'm just going off the top of my head since I don't have a changelog in front of me. Changes like this don't impact experienced players nearly as much as new/average players since experienced players are more adept at living longer. Since we all know most new players gravitate to marines to start (since that is what they are familiar with) this means these new people will be dying much more often. People don't play a game to sit in the spawn queue. (which has been increased too)
The level of skill needed to play NS2 effectively keeps going up and up. God help the commanders, I can see how anyone less than expert who goes commander will likely end up ejected when they are unable to keep up.
All of these changes are FINE for the experienced players. Heck, I think it will make the game more challenging overall, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is that you have a game with NO FREAKING TRAINER. You expect people to walk in and pick this all up like nothing? People don't see it since they know the game, they can't see it from the perspective of a new player.
Without those new players this game won't survive. Perhaps it's time you thought about that.
It seems like there's some confusion of terms here
That may be the case, so I'll clarify. My reference to skill floor is the base level of player skill needed for an individual to play a game at a level which allows them to be 'competitive'. Or in short, how 'easy' the game is. I know there are some who define it differently, and that's fine too. I'd rather not get into a debate about definitions though. My basic point was that the game is becoming 'harder to play' overall. As such, that will make it that much harder to integrate new players into the game before they become discouraged and demoralized.
Well, can you be more specific? You mentioned upgrade costs and movement speed as both making the game less accessible, and I don't really agree. First of all, upgrade costs are effectively cancelled out by earning res while dead. And the idea behind the bunnyhop-esque movement mechanic is to trade speed for predictability. The old movement mechanic was both fast and unpredictable, which I would argue made it more potent in combat than this version. I also think this version is more intuitive to use.
Don't underestimate new players. Those that got used to NS2 would have gotten used to this mod just the same had it been official. After all it's mostly the same tools and principles, just mixed up a bit.
Comparing the game's learning curve to Eve Online (really?) and saying its not going to 'sell more copies' sounds like alienating new players to me.
You seem to be missing INTENT. Alienation requires INTENT, and I never suggested there was any intent to alienate users. Again, if you want to attack me, do it for what I have said, and not for made up things. Pick something I write, quote it, and then reply. Don't put lies into my mouth and try to pass it off as if I have said it. It's rude and uncalled for.
Many of the changes in the mod are aimed at making mechanics more intuitive and easy to learn, thereby lowering the skill floor.
Name them. By all means. Please list all the new EZ mode changes in the mod.
Simple example, I'm seeing changes that make marines easier to kill. Like the massive EXO nerfs (the base EXO now starts with the same effective health as an A3 marine and can be killed in 4 bites by a skulk. LOL!) the armor repair change, the arms lab cost increases, medpack cost increased by 50% - I'm just going off the top of my head since I don't have a changelog in front of me. Changes like this don't impact experienced players nearly as much as new/average players since experienced players are more adept at living longer. Since we all know most new players gravitate to marines to start (since that is what they are familiar with) this means these new people will be dying much more often. People don't play a game to sit in the spawn queue. (which has been increased too)
The level of skill needed to play NS2 effectively keeps going up and up. God help the commanders, I can see how anyone less than expert who goes commander will likely end up ejected when they are unable to keep up.
All of these changes are FINE for the experienced players. Heck, I think it will make the game more challenging overall, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is that you have a game with NO FREAKING TRAINER. You expect people to walk in and pick this all up like nothing? People don't see it since they know the game, they can't see it from the perspective of a new player.
Without those new players this game won't survive. Perhaps it's time you thought about that.
exo's are all armor, ergo they have x2 hp against most damage types (8 bites).
also, you conveniently neglect to mention any of the alien cost increases. for example you need to evolve biomass at each hive twice to unlock upgrades; costing 20/40 additional res (then another cost to research those upgrades). to get carapace you need to drop 3 shells, 60 res instead of 30.
besides, these costs and other changes you mention are irrelevant to the skill 'entry level'. the upgrades and respawns are effectively delayed for both teams.
You seem to be missing INTENT. Alienation requires INTENT, and I never suggested there was any intent to alienate users.
You can't just make up definitions. Alienation does NOT require intent or else no business would ever alienate their customers. But they do, don't they? In fact, bigger companies will spend millions on preventing customer alienation. But I will concede that you didn't say UWE intended to alienate players, you just said they were going to alienate them intentional or otherwise.
Just curious, why exactly is the movement of say fades, lerks, and marines being reworked? To be honest, I don't think there's anything wrong with how they play in vanilla NS2. The only problem child imo is the skulk.
the fade is an attempt to make the class more accessible to "newbies" and im trying at the same time to raise the skill ceiling. the lerk, well its still a victim of the underlying code rewrite and i need to work more on it. i also dont feel that the lerk requires any changes besides bug fixes
But I will concede that you didn't say UWE intended to alienate players, you just said they were going to alienate them intentional or otherwise.
I never said any such thing. Either quote me verbatim or reply to what I have said, not what I haven't. I will not reply to any more of your made up allegations. What I have said is right there to read, and it bears no resemblance to what you are saying.
besides, these costs and other changes you mention are irrelevant to the skill 'entry level'.
How do you figure that? People had a heck of a time during the free preview trying to understand the game, and it has been made more complex.
Look, I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll end my remarks here. My point is that I was raising the concern these changes will raise the skill curve and 'difficulty level' for new users. Whether one agrees or disagrees, that was my point. Since I've made it, there isn't much need to debate it further. At least my conscience is clear that I brought this up.
Remember, this game has no trainer. People have a heck of a time learning to play already. Consider that when you look at the changes. Try and pretend you are a new player. Imagine learning all this from scratch.
Comments
Well about half of the changes could be already in the game
No idea on this, all I know is sometime after the lan. I'm sure it'll be announced here
Also, Parasite seems to be a bit buggy. I rarely get to see any outline once I parasited a marine, so I also can't see him through walls anymore. He only shows up on the minimap, but that can't be the sole purpose of the Parasite.
Oh, you won't be getting away that easy with your latest changelog, you rogue!
While a nice gesture, I think the Gorges on infestation have always been the least significant use of it.
And we saw in the beta that that kind of "buff" have its "debuff" part at the same time when you are not on the infestation, and can lead to a lot of frustration (same as Celerity in combat).
What I wrote a looooooooong time ago about infestation ( @Sewlek ) :
- About the infestation and it’s connection with the Hive, I see the infestation like a continuance of the Hive, so if a marine walk on the infestation the Hive should "feel" it and then report it to his fellow aliens. It was a little overpowered with the first Hivesight I think, but I like the idea or something similar, the Hive should feel them. Perhaps not showing them entirely, but displaying something moving on the infestation. A "feeling".
- Aliens structure could heal slowly when on a connected infestation. Or a healing “wave” going from the Hive, through the Cysts, then the structures. Right now the structures just don't heal at all.
Hence why the limitation in my suggestion that it only should show sprinting marines or Exos. So marines can mostly avoid the detection if they sacrifice some mobility. And only in the form of the dark cloud that the khammander will only notice if he tends to look at that spot of infestation in that moment.
Changing server friction/gravity changes everything I'd assume
However I have no idea if they can be individually tweaked per class, but assuming it's one server variable all things will change. The new fade is still pretty tough to use before getting shadowstep (similar to the current fade, you need to learn the curve before becoming really effective with it) once he gets shadowstep (which will be later in the match) it feels like a complete powerhouse, something that really feels like it should be between a lerk and an onos. That shadowstep is DEADLY
As for marines, they can jump a bit higher (I think the reasoning was more freedom) now you can do stuff like jump on a power node :P
My only real concern is now that skulks can bhop (which is awesome) they will be able to navigate the map so fast that I'm not sure how marines will be able to respond to RTs early on (assuming you're facing 5 experienced skulks) something I have yet to see, but the new jetpacks can be gotten on one CC and the new jetpacks are pretty fast, so maybe that's the response to the new skulks. (not to mention the lerks) you should totally try it out if you haven't already
That aside, now that getting com points is so important, it should make fighting over them that much more important to the outcome, cause lose everything and the other team will begin to snowball (hence RTS control of map/resources) a very positive change in my opinion
I think something to consider is some of these suggestions as research options for khamm.
On to my suggestion for at least this mod,
First an example:
Counter balance the nano armour regen with infestation upgrade that saps armour over time(inc buildings), wouldn't effect marines much if at all if it saps at a slower rate than nano armour regens. It's not much but it's something and the numbers can always be made to fit.
This allows marines a period of time where their structures are less effected by infestation.
You can also use it to give aliens some kind of defenders advantage like the marines get.
This would be an example of tech struggles the commanders should have.
They should be more direct via longer research times for (new,reintroduced) game changing upgrades.
They'd need to be contained in new structures that continue the research they were part way through when rebuilt at a token res cost.
You can balance the structures by the ease/difficulty of destroying them and the time it takes to place another down or build. For example losing it might only slow your research time by 10, 20, or 30 seconds or so, and it would be more difficult for the team to take out a second time.
Alternatively put them in current structures you want to add importance to.
It gives both teams a new useful objective other than kill harvesters/extractors, new, more in depth strategies for the comms (your research is about to finish, send your guys in to delay theirs ten seconds just as yours finishes)
They should however not be game winning advantages. Just a slight advantage for a definable time.
I think commanding for either team would be more dynamic with a more defined early, mid and late game than there currently is in the game and this would add to that.
there isn't too much difference for lerk and marine. they feel like a more responsive version of their vanilla ns2 counterpart, which is a good thing imo.
granted the fade make-over is a lot different to vanilla; obviously creating waves with people who are happy with vanilla fade. however, imo vanilla fade has never been anything more than a clumsy, hardy variation of the lerk. marines are not threatened by the fade's unique abilities per se, which can't be working as intended.
i can't really comment on fade balance in BT, but it feels far stronger than vanilla at low skill level and a fair bit stronger at high skill level. at least, buying a shotgun isn't an automatic immunity to fade. not to mention the greater control/potency emphasising the importance of blink/shadowstep; means you rarely see a fade without a streaks of blue smoke :P
Although there are many changes that look quite interesting, I find myself quite concerned at the direction it is going in.
While the skill ceiling is being raised, the skill floor is being raised significantly. IMHO, in a game without a trainer, this is unwise. The spread between those who know how to play and new players will only increase to the point where new players will quickly become lost the moment they step into the game. There seems to be very little attention given to how 'new' and 'average' players will be impacted by these changes. Many of the changes that involve personal per-life 'costs' will quickly become a tax on those players. (since they die more often) Others will make the game move even faster than before, which was fast to begin with. Yet others make units more fragile.
These changes will make the game harder to play. In general that's all fine and good as I enjoy a challenge. The problem is that new players will be hit with a learning curve that is getting close to that of Eve Online. (a graph of that kind of curve can be found here.) Is that really what people want?
While making a pile of experienced players happy is great, that's not going to sell more copies. Perhaps that's something people would be wise to keep in mind.
I said no such thing, and I defy you to quote me where I have said as such. My post is unedited, so please, go right ahead. Please don't put words in my mouth and attack me for it, that's just plain rude and uncalled for.
What I have said is, "There seems to be very little attention given to how 'new' and 'average' players will be impacted by these changes." In other words, there hasn't been any direct intent to "alienate lower skill players" since no one has actually considered how these changes impact them. There is no 'intent' at all, people just aren't considering how this will impact those players. They are only focused on how these changes will impact them - the experienced players.
This WILL increase the skill floor. Now whether there are any plans to mitigate the impact this will have on those players is something I'm not aware of, but people would be wise to give it some thought.
NS2 could use more spreadsheets...
in my experience, the skill floor seems lower if not the same, and BT welder is about as common as vanilla so it's not accurate to call it a 'tax' either (not to mention the fact that you can pick them back up off the floor anyway).
you seem to be confusing skill floor with a situation where the other team is full of professionals. you're leaning towards an awful change like handicapping the good players.
Name them. By all means. Please list all the new EZ mode changes in the mod.
Simple example, I'm seeing changes that make marines easier to kill. Like the massive EXO nerfs (the base EXO now starts with the same effective health as an A3 marine and can be killed in 4 bites by a skulk. LOL!) the armor repair change, the arms lab cost increases, medpack cost increased by 50% - I'm just going off the top of my head since I don't have a changelog in front of me. Changes like this don't impact experienced players nearly as much as new/average players since experienced players are more adept at living longer. Since we all know most new players gravitate to marines to start (since that is what they are familiar with) this means these new people will be dying much more often. People don't play a game to sit in the spawn queue. (which has been increased too)
The level of skill needed to play NS2 effectively keeps going up and up. God help the commanders, I can see how anyone less than expert who goes commander will likely end up ejected when they are unable to keep up.
All of these changes are FINE for the experienced players. Heck, I think it will make the game more challenging overall, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The problem is that you have a game with NO FREAKING TRAINER. You expect people to walk in and pick this all up like nothing? People don't see it since they know the game, they can't see it from the perspective of a new player.
Without those new players this game won't survive. Perhaps it's time you thought about that.
Well, can you be more specific? You mentioned upgrade costs and movement speed as both making the game less accessible, and I don't really agree. First of all, upgrade costs are effectively cancelled out by earning res while dead. And the idea behind the bunnyhop-esque movement mechanic is to trade speed for predictability. The old movement mechanic was both fast and unpredictable, which I would argue made it more potent in combat than this version. I also think this version is more intuitive to use.
How so?
exo's are all armor, ergo they have x2 hp against most damage types (8 bites).
also, you conveniently neglect to mention any of the alien cost increases. for example you need to evolve biomass at each hive twice to unlock upgrades; costing 20/40 additional res (then another cost to research those upgrades). to get carapace you need to drop 3 shells, 60 res instead of 30.
besides, these costs and other changes you mention are irrelevant to the skill 'entry level'. the upgrades and respawns are effectively delayed for both teams.
You can't just make up definitions. Alienation does NOT require intent or else no business would ever alienate their customers. But they do, don't they? In fact, bigger companies will spend millions on preventing customer alienation. But I will concede that you didn't say UWE intended to alienate players, you just said they were going to alienate them intentional or otherwise.
the fade is an attempt to make the class more accessible to "newbies" and im trying at the same time to raise the skill ceiling. the lerk, well its still a victim of the underlying code rewrite and i need to work more on it. i also dont feel that the lerk requires any changes besides bug fixes
How do you figure that? People had a heck of a time during the free preview trying to understand the game, and it has been made more complex.
Look, I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll end my remarks here. My point is that I was raising the concern these changes will raise the skill curve and 'difficulty level' for new users. Whether one agrees or disagrees, that was my point. Since I've made it, there isn't much need to debate it further. At least my conscience is clear that I brought this up.
Remember, this game has no trainer. People have a heck of a time learning to play already. Consider that when you look at the changes. Try and pretend you are a new player. Imagine learning all this from scratch.