Alien strategies in large pub games
Stoneburg
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
The following discussion is about alien strategies in pub games on 20-24 player servers and assumes both teams have a simmilar mix of skill levels. YMMV.
A big challenge on these servers is the risk of running out of eggs and thus getting egg locked. One of the most common strategies for aliens on large pub games to counter this is to go for a shift hive in order to be able to spawn eggs. If the problem is that you don't have enough eggs, the solution is to buy more eggs. This makes obvious sense on the surface, but lets look at what this means and what sort of situation you are creating.
Upgrading to shift hive = 15 res
Building a shift = 10 res
Spawning eggs = 2.5 res/egg.
After you have spawned 10 eggs you will have paid 15+10+25 res. That is 50 res spent and other than the eggs the only benefit you will have gotten is a small area on the map where your aliens will regenerate their energy quicker. No combat advantage, no extra map control and no real strategic advantage.
Even more seriously, you have also created a situation where a skulk dying will actually cost the team resources. Every skulk that dies and needs an egg to spawn will cost 2.5 res, and with no upgrades, skulks will die even quicker. Since the commander can buy eggs, there is also no individual "punishment" for dying since while the commander is buying eggs, you can suicide rush as much as you want.
Once the commander has enough res he will almost always go for the celerity upgrade. Either because he thinks it's worth it, or because there will always be players begging him to get it. That's another 30 res and the team has now spent about 80 res (not counting cysts and harvesters) without getting a second hive or any real combat advantage (since celerity doesn't work in combat). In the mean time, marines will have gotten either phase gates giving them map control and mobility, or upgrades that help them kill aliens. Meaning the situation is snowballing into something worse.
In my opinion, this is a weak strategy that basically means you are setting yourself up to lose. The marine counterpart to this strategy would be to start by building sentries in base, except that is actually a lot cheaper.
Running out of eggs IS a very serious issue on big servers, but this is basically a "reactive" strategy, so let's look instead for ways to be more "pro-active". If you want to avoid running out of eggs in the early game you can do this by either skulks staying alive longer, or getting more eggs.
Early carapace
Getting carapace early will increase skulks effective hitpoints by almost 50%, greatly increasing their survivability and combat effectiveness. Gorges get an additional 160 hitpoints for an amazing 55% increase, protecting the 10 pres investment, making it very hard to break a gorge defense and basically allowing them to "tank" in group combats. Of course carapace is also essential for all higher lifeforms and a must have in the mid and late game. By getting it first you ensure that lerks and fades can stay alive even if you're having trouble getting a second hive up. It also gives you access to crags, arguably the most useful alien building.
Early second hive
Another option is to get a second hive up quickly. If you drop a hive quickly and have a gorge or two speed building it, you can have the second hive up and running before the 2-minute mark. So if you can avoid getting egglocked for the first two minutes, you will have doubled your egg production, gotten access to tier two tech, increased your map control and denied marines an expansion point. This is a somewhat risky strategy since IF marines manage to take down the hive before it gets up it will basically be game over. But with two gorges dropping hydras, clogging up and healing the hive it becomes very hard for marines to do so in the early game, with no phasegates or upgrades. Especially since most marine teams don't expect it. Of course having two gorges and building hydras will decrease the amount of skulks out and means that two players are not saving for lerk/fade/onos. But on a 10-12 player team it is not a bad idea to have two gorges, and having a well defended hive with clogs and hydras is a pretty good investment.
Both these strategies actually cost LESS than going for a shift and buying eggs
Buying eggs: 15 (hive) + 10 (shift) + 25 (assuming 10 eggs) = 50 res
Carapace: 15 (hive) + 15 (shell) + 15 (upgrade) = 45 res
Hive: = 40 res (+ 38 pres for 2 gorges and 6 hydras)
A common argument against the carapace strategy is that "noob players will rush in and die even with carapace". Well yes, but at least you are now not encouraging and paying for that behaviour. If players get stuck in the spawn que there is actually a chance that they will stop doing that, because nobody thinks it is fun to have to wait to respawn. And carapace is arguably the best upgrade even for not-so-skilled players, since it takes no skill to enjoy the advantage of simply being able to soak up more damage. It actually makes them a lot more useful in their role as cannon fodder. Now marines have to spend an extra 5 bullets on them before they can start shooting at the good players.
An argument against the second hive drop is that it takes teamwork to pull off, and teamwork can sometimes be a rare commodity in pub games. In reality, it takes a pretty minimal amount of teamwork. In fact you just need one player to get to the hive location and gorge up since you yourself can be the second gorge (drop one res node then the hive), and that one or two players on the team are intelligent enough to be able to defend a hive that is under attack. With two gorges, a bunch of clogs and six hydras, you only need a skulk or two to beat back most marine pushes.
I think one reason for the popularity of the "buy-more-eggs" strategy is that you don't usually see the effects of it until mid game, so it doesn't "feel" like you are losing. While the team is spending res on eggs the individual players don't get any real indicators that they are in fact losing. And since eggs are available, they can keep trying unsuccessful attacks and suicide rushes. And when the commander has the ability to spawn eggs, he will be under pressure to do so. "Get more eggs commander!" is a pretty common thing to hear, and hard to say no to when you have a shift. Next time try responding "No can do, we went crag first and got carapace, get that and try to stay alive" or "The second hive is up soon, try to stay alive until then and make sure marines don't kill it".
Will these strategies ensure a win? No. But the simple fact is that if your team can't stay alive enough against unupgraded marines when they have carapace, or can't get the teamwork together to get a second hive up, you were doomed to lose anyway. And at least you won't have to sit and spend your res on eggs waiting for the marines to get their act together and finally kill your hive.
*Disclaimer*
There are of course other strategies, and your experience from the games you play may be completely different from mine. I've chosen to discuss these three because they highlight a common problem and different perspectives on how to solve it.
Bonus tip: The carapace shell is very valueable and very vulnerable. As commander it is a good idea to go gorge and cover it with clogs. And while you're at it, you might as well spend your pres and get some hydras up in the hive room.
A big challenge on these servers is the risk of running out of eggs and thus getting egg locked. One of the most common strategies for aliens on large pub games to counter this is to go for a shift hive in order to be able to spawn eggs. If the problem is that you don't have enough eggs, the solution is to buy more eggs. This makes obvious sense on the surface, but lets look at what this means and what sort of situation you are creating.
Upgrading to shift hive = 15 res
Building a shift = 10 res
Spawning eggs = 2.5 res/egg.
After you have spawned 10 eggs you will have paid 15+10+25 res. That is 50 res spent and other than the eggs the only benefit you will have gotten is a small area on the map where your aliens will regenerate their energy quicker. No combat advantage, no extra map control and no real strategic advantage.
Even more seriously, you have also created a situation where a skulk dying will actually cost the team resources. Every skulk that dies and needs an egg to spawn will cost 2.5 res, and with no upgrades, skulks will die even quicker. Since the commander can buy eggs, there is also no individual "punishment" for dying since while the commander is buying eggs, you can suicide rush as much as you want.
Once the commander has enough res he will almost always go for the celerity upgrade. Either because he thinks it's worth it, or because there will always be players begging him to get it. That's another 30 res and the team has now spent about 80 res (not counting cysts and harvesters) without getting a second hive or any real combat advantage (since celerity doesn't work in combat). In the mean time, marines will have gotten either phase gates giving them map control and mobility, or upgrades that help them kill aliens. Meaning the situation is snowballing into something worse.
In my opinion, this is a weak strategy that basically means you are setting yourself up to lose. The marine counterpart to this strategy would be to start by building sentries in base, except that is actually a lot cheaper.
Running out of eggs IS a very serious issue on big servers, but this is basically a "reactive" strategy, so let's look instead for ways to be more "pro-active". If you want to avoid running out of eggs in the early game you can do this by either skulks staying alive longer, or getting more eggs.
Early carapace
Getting carapace early will increase skulks effective hitpoints by almost 50%, greatly increasing their survivability and combat effectiveness. Gorges get an additional 160 hitpoints for an amazing 55% increase, protecting the 10 pres investment, making it very hard to break a gorge defense and basically allowing them to "tank" in group combats. Of course carapace is also essential for all higher lifeforms and a must have in the mid and late game. By getting it first you ensure that lerks and fades can stay alive even if you're having trouble getting a second hive up. It also gives you access to crags, arguably the most useful alien building.
Early second hive
Another option is to get a second hive up quickly. If you drop a hive quickly and have a gorge or two speed building it, you can have the second hive up and running before the 2-minute mark. So if you can avoid getting egglocked for the first two minutes, you will have doubled your egg production, gotten access to tier two tech, increased your map control and denied marines an expansion point. This is a somewhat risky strategy since IF marines manage to take down the hive before it gets up it will basically be game over. But with two gorges dropping hydras, clogging up and healing the hive it becomes very hard for marines to do so in the early game, with no phasegates or upgrades. Especially since most marine teams don't expect it. Of course having two gorges and building hydras will decrease the amount of skulks out and means that two players are not saving for lerk/fade/onos. But on a 10-12 player team it is not a bad idea to have two gorges, and having a well defended hive with clogs and hydras is a pretty good investment.
Both these strategies actually cost LESS than going for a shift and buying eggs
Buying eggs: 15 (hive) + 10 (shift) + 25 (assuming 10 eggs) = 50 res
Carapace: 15 (hive) + 15 (shell) + 15 (upgrade) = 45 res
Hive: = 40 res (+ 38 pres for 2 gorges and 6 hydras)
A common argument against the carapace strategy is that "noob players will rush in and die even with carapace". Well yes, but at least you are now not encouraging and paying for that behaviour. If players get stuck in the spawn que there is actually a chance that they will stop doing that, because nobody thinks it is fun to have to wait to respawn. And carapace is arguably the best upgrade even for not-so-skilled players, since it takes no skill to enjoy the advantage of simply being able to soak up more damage. It actually makes them a lot more useful in their role as cannon fodder. Now marines have to spend an extra 5 bullets on them before they can start shooting at the good players.
An argument against the second hive drop is that it takes teamwork to pull off, and teamwork can sometimes be a rare commodity in pub games. In reality, it takes a pretty minimal amount of teamwork. In fact you just need one player to get to the hive location and gorge up since you yourself can be the second gorge (drop one res node then the hive), and that one or two players on the team are intelligent enough to be able to defend a hive that is under attack. With two gorges, a bunch of clogs and six hydras, you only need a skulk or two to beat back most marine pushes.
I think one reason for the popularity of the "buy-more-eggs" strategy is that you don't usually see the effects of it until mid game, so it doesn't "feel" like you are losing. While the team is spending res on eggs the individual players don't get any real indicators that they are in fact losing. And since eggs are available, they can keep trying unsuccessful attacks and suicide rushes. And when the commander has the ability to spawn eggs, he will be under pressure to do so. "Get more eggs commander!" is a pretty common thing to hear, and hard to say no to when you have a shift. Next time try responding "No can do, we went crag first and got carapace, get that and try to stay alive" or "The second hive is up soon, try to stay alive until then and make sure marines don't kill it".
Will these strategies ensure a win? No. But the simple fact is that if your team can't stay alive enough against unupgraded marines when they have carapace, or can't get the teamwork together to get a second hive up, you were doomed to lose anyway. And at least you won't have to sit and spend your res on eggs waiting for the marines to get their act together and finally kill your hive.
*Disclaimer*
There are of course other strategies, and your experience from the games you play may be completely different from mine. I've chosen to discuss these three because they highlight a common problem and different perspectives on how to solve it.
Bonus tip: The carapace shell is very valueable and very vulnerable. As commander it is a good idea to go gorge and cover it with clogs. And while you're at it, you might as well spend your pres and get some hydras up in the hive room.
Comments
Shift Hive is the map control Hive. Celerity helps aliens get around more quickly and Shifts spread out Skulk spawns, both increasing map control. With better map control, aliens can capture more RTs and better protect them which helps pay for the Shift Hive investment.
I was alien comm on a 24 man server last night, and it was one of the most if not the most frustrating experience I've ever had commanding.
The scene - server had 10 players when I joined, we spawned Pipe on Veil. I immediately went Carapace. had a few good skulks and a gorge sealed up Nano, we won most the engagements except we lost Sub-Sector to a 5 man marine push quite early. We had C12, Cargo, Pipe, Nano and were doing well taking down RT's in Topo flight and overlook for the first 5-10 minutes, by this point the server had filled up and we 12 players a team I dropped the 2nd hive in Cargo which was built by friendly gorge who relocated from nano. Then marines got a phasegate up in Y Junction despite fore warning by drifter scouts since the marine team simply walked to y-Junction with 7 players and sat there. I'm not sure how you can remove a 7 player marine team with skulks and a lerk or two in a public server with very little player skill difference. Since 3/4 of your skulks die before they even get into the fight.
From Y junct, they pressured nano & cargo while a 3 man team constantly pushed through C12 cutting the cyst link to nano and killing the C12 harvester, before long the arc trains arrived in west junction (which we hadn't seen since Y-Junction phase went up). Realistically at this point, what should have been done is 2/3 skulks should sneak past enemy lines, hit sub / overlook / skylights / control constantly harassing the enemy resources to lower there economy. What actually happened was an attempt at a zergling rush at a heavily fortified enemy position and a constant barrage of dead aliens(despite my protests and me begging for a few people to break off and do something else - this would have also given us a chance to kill the arc's
From there it was pretty much over the second we lost Nano, we had one flaring moment of hope when we got two Onos up at the same time, who both promptly ran to Nano, failed to secure the phasegate, and in running away ran into the reinforcements from Y Junction and died. Aliens that conceded about 10 minutes later after 5 exo's walked into Cargo and insta-binned the hive.
[On topic points]
I honestly only see aliens winning in large servers, when there is a very clear skill difference favouring the alien team, or the marine team basically really screws up. Larger servers the marines are almost guaranteed to win. It really has very little effect what you do as an alien commander in these servers.
[Off topic rant]
I totally agree that going shift hive is fixing a symptom no the cause, but the bigger problem with these large servers is marines are significantly stronger in big packs than lower lifeforms (Skulk/Gorge/Lerk even fades). 5/6 marines pushing into a room will not be defeated by 5/6 skulks, you need 2 lerks, a fade or two and 2/3 skulks. This causes a problem, since aliens have to retreat to heal to avoid losing there valuable lifeforms. Aliens are a gorilla warfare specialist. The problem with large marine teams is there is ALWAYS 2/3 marines in almost all area's of the map which are tactically important. This means instead of arriving at an area and meat-grinder-ing the phase gate, you have to fight and win against 2/3 marines BEFORE any more marines phase through. That is basically never going to happen. It almost means that you have a very low chance of sneaking around to a part of the map which is undefended as a random marine is probably going to be walking through it. Alien teams on large servers require significantly more team-synergy than marines who just need to travel in a pack and slowly push there way into alien strong holds by moving an armoury forward every time there is a lull in combat.
Tactically and strategically smaller servers are far more interesting, especially on the currently very small maps. Which is especially depressing given the 24-20 player servers are typically full, and the 12-16 are typically empty (in the EU region at least)
use parasite, wait for teammates, urge your teammates to ambush the marines etc.
only when obiding by the above rules can you actually start blaming the crappy egg system for your loss.
Also the combination of a george and a shift makes a good healing station in the early game, that has the advantage of being able to shoot back and spawn players.
if there's 3 marines in one room, then it means there's less marines elsewhere. there's absolutely NO advantage to gain from engaging those marines before they become a threat to your early RT's. it's like zerg in SC2, you should not engage until the last moment - when you have no other options and when the marines are emptying magazines on the RT instead of skulks.
a good example of this is locker rooms on docking. sooooooooooooo many times i hear "guys we cant let them get locker... get to locker!", when there are like 5 marines in there... then a flurry of skulks continually die - serving no purpose and before you know it half of the team is egglocked and it's insta-loss.
if locker rooms is honking with marines, then don't wait around - instantly go around and kill bar, terminal and peek into their cafeteria main base to see if you have a chance to attack the IP and insta-win the game. once your rounds are complete, you should usually be able to retreat back with plenty of time to defend the marine pressure on maintenance/stability RT.
you have to punish them for having loads of slow-ass marines in the same place.
In the first scenario, you're paying to lose. In the second, you're investing in winning.
Marines make a one-time investment of 20 res that doubles their spawn capacity. Aliens make a 25 res investment that allows them to spawn eggs at a price of 2.5res/egg. Thus they are not very simmilar at all. An extra IP is more simmilar to a second hive in a way.
It doesn't really give that much map control for several reasons.
1. Even if aliens can get to a spot slightly quicker, they don't have any combat advantages once they get there since celerity stops working when you attack or get attacked. In order to "control" it is not enough to get there, you have to be able to win the engagement. Compared to carapace, you can either get there slightly quicker, or have a much bigger chance of winning the engagement.
2. Celerity doesn't actually do that much for skulks. Since it gives a fixed speed boost, it is less effective on fast units and more effective on slow units. Skulks, being relatively fast don't get a very big bonus. Gorges and Onos are the ones that benefit the most from it, and one is not available in early game, the other not very effective before you get a second hive up and bile bomb (at which point, most use adrenaline anyway).
What you do as alien commander has an impact. Your strategies (like not using the buy-eggs-strat), your communication and leadership skills (giving relevant information, helping players, organising pushes, making it fun) and your personal play (getting out to defend/attack, clogging, speed building and plaing hydras). A commander can't make a bad team beat a good one, but will definetely be a deciding factor when teams are balanced. And of course the commander can lose the game by making mistakes.
In a straight 6 vs 6 fight in a room I agree that the game favors the marines, but apart from benefits like mobility, parasite etc the aliens have one more advantage that is rarely used effectively: Mixed groups.
The alien life forms complement eachother in ways that marines only have access to in later game. A pack of 5 skulks + gorge, or 4 skulks + gorge and lerk is MUCH more powerful than just 6 skulks. The problem is the speed difference, which means that skulks will get seperated from gorges because they don't want to wait around, and lerks will get seperated from skulks for the same reason. But if you stick together, the synergy is usually well worth the decrease in speed.
* bring enough buddies & ambush them around corridors and hallways. Preferably anything which is confined & with stuff on the ceiling to hide.
A group of skulks can easily take out a group of marines in such a environment. Do it for most of the match & they will become more and more wary to venture outside rooms. The more marines, the better as they are long range and clog up each others aim and view. Skulk mobility will win.
* Move in packs and try to gang up on the rts.. When the first marines shows up, scram (because more will follow) and hit another rt.
* Try to get a few gorges with you to keep skulks alive.
* Flee in time. You are capable of running away a lot better then marines. If you dont die, you do not need eggs.
* Protect the eggs. Just ask some gorges to lame up the hives a little bit. Big server, marines will get in your hive.
* drifters, drifters, drifters. I said drifters yes?
* take the fight not to (possible) hive areas but to chokepoints to keep them out of the hive & a lot of the map.
New slogans for the shift franchise? You won't win, but you'll die quicker! or Run to your death even faster, with Celerity(tm) from SHIFT corp.!
Or for the cynical commanders: "Tired of watching your skulks win engagements? Try celerity and watch them speed into the marine bullets and die! For only ten additional team resources you can get the ability to buy eggs to make sure the fun lasts until your team is completely broke!"
You say aliens require more teamwork on large servers, which i disagree with... If you can hold out until you have a 2nd hive and bilebomb, it's stupidly easy to get 3 gorges to sneak to one of their bases and destroy it before they can beacon. with 12 players on each side, 3 arn't missed, nor does it require huge amounts of teamwork, your talking 25% of your team listening and following orders (and you can be one of them! though it'd be better if you didn't need to be).
The egglock problem is known about and Sewlek's balance mod shows they're working on ideas to improve it.
Also, that shift will help the gorge in building the future hive in Fabrication.
that's the same for marine commander... it doesn't matter if you have 16 medpacks to spare; if your marines are derpy then it's simply not possible to hold more than one RT :P
24 players don't work well because of the egg-locking issue.
The added movement speed can help protect you from being shot in the first place. It also helps more against multiple marines. Carapace only helps you for 4 bullets. If celerity throws off just 4 bullets of aim then its already been stronger than carapace for combat.
Movement speed becomes even more important when the marines get weapon upgrades. A level 3 rifle kills a carapace skulk in just 10 shots! A shotgun can always kill a skulk in 1 hit.
You shouldn't need the added movement speed because you should be ambushing. Thus, you're in combat as soon as the marine sees you. Thus, celerity isn't working. Therefore, carapace is a better upgrade.
You are missing the fact that a good alien comm in large servers uses shift spawn eggs as a BOTH a forward strategic spawn location and as a way to pay for skulks dying. In fact, the more skulks die, the more powerful the forward spawn location becomes. A forward spawn location is a much more powerful strategy in larger player count servers.
The ideal strategy though would be fanning out the skulks just as far as they can get without running head-on into marines and set up ambushes in packs of three. Almost every map has three major choke points where you can do this. There is no need to go to the extremities to find the marine base (which skulks LOVE to do) because they expand progressively and by setting up these early ambushes you have the advantage and should win every engagement, which is contrary to rushing their first base. You use less eggs and marines can only expand as far as you let them.
When this happens, marines will try to work in bigger groups, oftentimes even form one big one, going for their priority location. That's where the early lerk egg comes in. 4 skulks against the entire marine team may not have that much of a chance even with the benefit of surprise, but add a quick response lerk and you have a strong ward, which if not successful at wiping out that push, will sufficiently delay it until the rest of the skulks arrive.
But then again, this doesn't even work on a pub level conceptually because of rookie skulk mentality. It's just the dream scenario. It has happened a couple of times though, which as you can imagine led to wins on all accounts. Don't discount the possiblity of teamwork in pubs entirely.
I would never drop a lerk egg for someone at the start of a round, unless the person who is getting it is a regular on the server who is known to be a good lerk and wants it. Certainly wouldn't give it to some random person who joins the server and asks for it because they say they are good.
That is your right, however, commanders who drop one for me rarely regret it. I've early-Lerked hundreds of times and the times where I wasted the egg I can count on one hand, of which three instances were my game crashing or internet going out. It is a lot of responsibility for one person to get, so you definitely shouldn't give it to anyone. If I don't get the egg I'll just shrug because once I have 30 res the commander is going to take notice of my Lerking anyway, hopefully he's the commander next time too and usually they come around to my idea by then.