Melee/Bite Cones
Scatter
Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
Stepped melee cones were introduced in build 225 (?) and was the end result of the bite cones being changed over the previous 5 - 10 builds I believe it was.
*Build 223 had the lawnmower bite where the bite cone was much too wide and it was near impossible to juke as a marine where previously you could.
*Build 224 had a very narrow cone where it was extremely difficult to land any bites at all if you were a moderately skilled skulk and marines were basically dancing above skulks and could easily take 3 skulks on.
So as a compromise the narrow 75 cone was maintained while two additional cones were introduced to simulate a glancing bite. This would supposedly scale better with skill while making skulks more accessible to new players.
Several times I've posted that I actually dislike stepped melee cones greatly, but what I dislike even more is that I actually cannot find any information on what these bite cones look like. So I have drawn in paint what I think the possible ones are:
Generally I thought it was pattern A or C but was recently informed that the it was also stepped in front of the life form, which would mean pattern B or D. Whether the bite cone is curved on its outer surface or not is something that I also do not know. Could anyone confirm this ?
What I hate about stepped cones:
*Cannot count my bites effectively such that I would rather miss the bite than hit with a lower tier cone.
*Lerk bite dot is the same regardless of which melee cone the marine is bitten with. This results in the melee lerk dealing too much damage (60, 40, 20 + 30 dot) while performing unpredictable acrobatics that they themselves cannot control.
*Interp. What the hell am I actually biting ?
*Inconsistent/poorly scaled bite requirements across armour levels. see below
To kill a marine at a0 in 3 or less bites requires the following combinations:
3 x 75
2 x 75 and parasite
2 x 75 and 1 x 50
2 x 75 and 1 x 25
1 x 75 and 2 x 50
1 x 75 and 1 x 50 and 1 x 25 and parasite
3 x 50 and parasite
To kill a marine at a1 in 4 bites or less requires the following combinations:
3 x 75
2 x 75 and 1 x 50
2 x 75 and 2 x 25
1 x 75 and 3 x 50
1 x 75 and 2 x 50 and 1 x 25
4 x 50
So we go from a0 where you can have fairly sloppy bites and still kill marines in 3 bites as long as long as you parasite, to a1 where it's mandatory to get at least 2 x 75 bites in to be able to kill an a1 marine in the traditional 3 bites guarantee when parasited. More importantly, with an equivalent level of biting success against a1 as against a0, the skulk now essentially requires 4 bites at a1 instead of 3 at a0. It used to be just get 3 x 75 bites with a wider 75 bite cone (pre lawnmower) at a0 or a1. Nice scaling there for early game.
With the prevalence of the 50 and 25 damage bite cones, you're also seeing medpack efficiency going up such that the commander can probably med at the same rate that a skulk does 50 and 25 damage bites. So if your commander is good at medpacking jumping marines, it is your duty to jump as much as possible. Also a1 is now the praise jesus of upgrades and significantly more powerful than in the past when it was a parasite guard.
Just for a laugh let's look at a marine with no armor at 100 HP:
2 x 75
1 x 75 and 1 x 50
1 x 75 and 1 x 25
2 x 50
1 x 50 and 2 x 25
And this is considering the overall huge size of the combined 25 + 50 + 75 bite cones. Just hold that m1 as you don't really need to aim.
Anyway I want there to be one wider 75 damage bite cone and no 50 or 25 damage cones. Or at the very least get rid of the stupid 25 one. Stepped bite cones have introduced an array or problems while solving none and just make for unpredictable and inconsistent marines/alien interactions as they're either too powerful or too weak.
So maybe the solution to this issue is the new parasite:
local kBulletSize = 0.12 -> RAILGUN
local kParasiteSize = 0.15
lol?
tl;dr:
*Bite aim requirement too lax at a0 and zero armor when no medpacks
*Bite aim requirement skyrockets at a1 and thus shitty scaling
*Medpack efficiency variable with armor level and bite cone
*Interp is still bad
*Cant count my bites
*Lerk bite dot applied too easily
*Parasite projectile wider than the railgun beam
*inb4 Ironhorse clicks disagree
*UWE please fix
*Build 223 had the lawnmower bite where the bite cone was much too wide and it was near impossible to juke as a marine where previously you could.
*Build 224 had a very narrow cone where it was extremely difficult to land any bites at all if you were a moderately skilled skulk and marines were basically dancing above skulks and could easily take 3 skulks on.
So as a compromise the narrow 75 cone was maintained while two additional cones were introduced to simulate a glancing bite. This would supposedly scale better with skill while making skulks more accessible to new players.
Several times I've posted that I actually dislike stepped melee cones greatly, but what I dislike even more is that I actually cannot find any information on what these bite cones look like. So I have drawn in paint what I think the possible ones are:
Generally I thought it was pattern A or C but was recently informed that the it was also stepped in front of the life form, which would mean pattern B or D. Whether the bite cone is curved on its outer surface or not is something that I also do not know. Could anyone confirm this ?
What I hate about stepped cones:
*Cannot count my bites effectively such that I would rather miss the bite than hit with a lower tier cone.
*Lerk bite dot is the same regardless of which melee cone the marine is bitten with. This results in the melee lerk dealing too much damage (60, 40, 20 + 30 dot) while performing unpredictable acrobatics that they themselves cannot control.
*Interp. What the hell am I actually biting ?
*Inconsistent/poorly scaled bite requirements across armour levels. see below
To kill a marine at a0 in 3 or less bites requires the following combinations:
3 x 75
2 x 75 and parasite
2 x 75 and 1 x 50
2 x 75 and 1 x 25
1 x 75 and 2 x 50
1 x 75 and 1 x 50 and 1 x 25 and parasite
3 x 50 and parasite
To kill a marine at a1 in 4 bites or less requires the following combinations:
3 x 75
2 x 75 and 1 x 50
2 x 75 and 2 x 25
1 x 75 and 3 x 50
1 x 75 and 2 x 50 and 1 x 25
4 x 50
So we go from a0 where you can have fairly sloppy bites and still kill marines in 3 bites as long as long as you parasite, to a1 where it's mandatory to get at least 2 x 75 bites in to be able to kill an a1 marine in the traditional 3 bites guarantee when parasited. More importantly, with an equivalent level of biting success against a1 as against a0, the skulk now essentially requires 4 bites at a1 instead of 3 at a0. It used to be just get 3 x 75 bites with a wider 75 bite cone (pre lawnmower) at a0 or a1. Nice scaling there for early game.
With the prevalence of the 50 and 25 damage bite cones, you're also seeing medpack efficiency going up such that the commander can probably med at the same rate that a skulk does 50 and 25 damage bites. So if your commander is good at medpacking jumping marines, it is your duty to jump as much as possible. Also a1 is now the praise jesus of upgrades and significantly more powerful than in the past when it was a parasite guard.
Just for a laugh let's look at a marine with no armor at 100 HP:
2 x 75
1 x 75 and 1 x 50
1 x 75 and 1 x 25
2 x 50
1 x 50 and 2 x 25
And this is considering the overall huge size of the combined 25 + 50 + 75 bite cones. Just hold that m1 as you don't really need to aim.
Anyway I want there to be one wider 75 damage bite cone and no 50 or 25 damage cones. Or at the very least get rid of the stupid 25 one. Stepped bite cones have introduced an array or problems while solving none and just make for unpredictable and inconsistent marines/alien interactions as they're either too powerful or too weak.
So maybe the solution to this issue is the new parasite:
local kBulletSize = 0.12 -> RAILGUN
local kParasiteSize = 0.15
lol?
tl;dr:
*Bite aim requirement too lax at a0 and zero armor when no medpacks
*Bite aim requirement skyrockets at a1 and thus shitty scaling
*Medpack efficiency variable with armor level and bite cone
*Interp is still bad
*Cant count my bites
*Lerk bite dot applied too easily
*Parasite projectile wider than the railgun beam
*inb4 Ironhorse clicks disagree
*UWE please fix
Comments
EDIT:
Um, no, it's applied on any bite. I think he'd know.
i think every skulk was in situation vs jetpacking marine with armor lvl 3 upgrade, 3000000 bites with 25 dmg and marine is still alive X_X
btw leap speed is lower than jetpacking marine speed lol
Good post!
Not sure what the exact answer with skulk cones is, making 75 any bigger will probably ruin marines as I definitely feel there's an art/aim check to good skulking in combat and being able to snap your aim and get multiple 75s off and killing a med spammed marine on top of his med packs feels satisfying, removing 25 will probably make average to bad players even worse and again increasing either 50 or 75 could go the other way...not sure who this is targeting?
Lerk is OP as balls and I hate that bite, I hate the visual effect it applies, I hate being spiked inbetween bites and between the bite screen toxic gas sign and blinding rail spike effect having 0 idea where to pin point the lerk, I hate the acceleration gain going down that's nearly impossible to track, pretty well much hate lerks and support any motion to nerfing the flying pieces of OP shit.
My main problem with bite cones is it applies to structures, that's just some ridiculous shit, I can only imagine the structure hit boxes, esp alien ones like upgrades that also have in built wobble effects as they get hit moving the hit boxes. Think pre nerf res towers not being hittable on the top half all over again.
The bite areas as wide at the mouth as it is 0.5 metres from the skulks mouth.
Replace the above graphics with cylinders instead of cones and lets not confuse people.
But b and d are the closest to how damage tails off at extremities of range.
Also, bite cones extend from the centre of the skulk which is where the eyes are. Rather annoying.
Most people feel like it is "B" or "D", because when they look up to a marine the cone tilts and the green area reaches out farther than the red one. The more you look up, (tilting the cone) the more this effect counts. If you are not close enough only the green are will hit = 25 dmg.
"C" would fix this, but I believe it's also more complicated to implement.
I thought the same but this is actually not true (though it was at one point, I'm not sure when it changed), I tested it this morning. There is no glancing hits on structures.
I just got so Ninja'd so hard it made my head spin.
Was either that or the fact your arguments against glancing bites had nothing to do with the mechanic itself (interp, parasite width, medpacks and armor scaling or lack of weapon feedback?)
Sure you could always read the yellow damage numbers dancing in front of your crosshair, but i agree that audio feedback would help too.
But really.. A good argument about WHY specifically glancing bite mechanics don't work, and i mean the concept not the feature lacking implementation, would be more productive to iron out Imo.
It bugs me when a feature is one bug or fix away and people use said deficit as an argument against the concept.
That is why I click disagree, my friend.
Are you sure? I think you can glance phase gates as a skulk if your not in the prime spot.
but the fact that the confusion and discussion is there in the first place shows exactly why it's not a good mechanic
Yes, let's not fix the issue, let's delete it entirely.
Good approach, let's apply it to everything!
And now Play testing just got a whole lot easier!...
/sarcasm
:-D
Edit: Adding obligatory smiley face so you know i mean well none the less
Whatever issue @gliss was referencing.
I suppose specifically he meant lack of proper feedback, but you'll have to ask him.
Gotta call if for what it is
I do think it's a really pressing issue though. Adding differing sounds should have been fixed months ago, this is an issue that has been in the game since the mechanic was first implemented in beta. I think it's part of the reason why there's so much negativity about the entire glancing system.
Also releasing a cone diagram of exactly what the cones are and how they work would help clear up a lot of confusion, if only for the veteran players who actually use these websites. It would be a start.
I must admit though, it feels too... mechanical. I'd almost prefer a smooth function dropoff of damage depending on distance/angle from the perfect bite, but I know how that suggestion is going to go down amongst this community!
I've posted the cones before in these forums, lets see if i can dig them up..
I'd also like some mechanic which clearly defines where exactly the borders are.. guessing by the teeth model is sorta inaccurate.
some kind of large bulky crosshair could make due. something like this but a bit more minimal.... well, you get the idea. I think crosshairs can only be 64x64 atm though? not sure how one would actually go about making something like that. Although I don't know how much something like this would actually help (at the very least it would clearly indicate to newer players that there is 3 cones of damage?)
Or alternatively you could have a crosshair that flashed green/yellow/red as hit indicators depending on level of glancing (I like this idea better).
And dont hold me to to it, but iirc the cone has varying distances too, besides width, so that would have to be fixed as well for those crosshairs to work.
.. i smell an official bite cone crosshair by rantology when this is all done.. dooo itttt...