Making unfair spawns "more fair"
Mendasp
I touch maps in inappropriate placesValencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
I touch maps in inappropriate placesValencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
The other day someone (sorry I don't remember who it was) said that for these maps with unfair spawns the game should just repeat the spawns for both teams. This actually makes sense so I was thinking on ways of implementing it and possible downsides.
The easiest way is repeating the spawns since map load so both teams can think of their strategies with enough time (if it was chosen on "ready", then saved, the second round would be easier and you couldn't prepare in the same way for the first one).
Then again, this might cause lots of draws (ie. Warehouse spawn). The other thing is that we could "lock" it to maps with these kind of spawns and maps like summit could be played default.
This is easy to get into my already existing spawns mod (although I'd probably need the ENSL approval if I wanted to include it there), so, what do you think? Additional ideas? Is this a horrible thing and I should get shot in the street?
The easiest way is repeating the spawns since map load so both teams can think of their strategies with enough time (if it was chosen on "ready", then saved, the second round would be easier and you couldn't prepare in the same way for the first one).
Then again, this might cause lots of draws (ie. Warehouse spawn). The other thing is that we could "lock" it to maps with these kind of spawns and maps like summit could be played default.
This is easy to get into my already existing spawns mod (although I'd probably need the ENSL approval if I wanted to include it there), so, what do you think? Additional ideas? Is this a horrible thing and I should get shot in the street?
Comments
I would like to see maps tweaked and balanced much more often (felt like it took forever for changes to happen on veil). I assume this is what the map testers group helps with. Then again, I am not a mapmaker or have the skills to make changes frequently and test them, so easier said than done I'm sure.
Be more vocal about the problems you see with maps, and get more people involved in the discussion. I have had a hell of a time getting constructive criticism in which to make decisions about maps. I've even directly contacted high level competitive teams in order to discuss what they see as problems only to be completely ignored by them. Problems are not always as obvious as they seem, and the lack of feedback keeps changes from being made. Its hard to see one person say "oh this is a problem" and make changes based on that feedback. If more people were involved it would be a lot easier to gauge the problems and make changes. Otherwise the only option is to let things playout until we see persistent problems, and then make changes. If there isn't discussion, change wont come quickly.
Anyway, until we get the maps balanced further, Mendasp's suggestion is the best fix. Repeating spawn locations will not effect the game that much.
That said, I was wondering the other day how it might play if you simply remove the techpoint and RT from server room for an "NSL" version of the map. Because top spawn is definitely an issue.
I don't think the techpoint itself is the problem, with a Warehouse spawn you can get 4-5 harvesters and it's not too hard to defend, which is the actual issue.
Another option is removing server as a spawn and this frees you up to remove Mez RT ?
I'm not really sure what else to suggest. At the very least, the consistent spawns idea from round to round in the OP is a good start.
Repeating spawns at least gives both alien teams the advantage if one team spawns north.
Ok. I just thought I misread you at first time since there is one huge flaw. On second round both teams then have the information of other team's spawning position before the game even starts.
What about removing platform RT? That would mean if you spawn top you have the advantage of the close TP, but you'd get one less RT with it. Platform is probably the easiest RT to defend (as aliens at least) imo.. mezz has always seemed fairly easy to harass unless it's got crags/gorge support.
While it is true that either side will know their spawn and their enemy's spawn on the 2nd round, this makes the first round require some form of ghosting to instantly acquire the knowledge of a spawn. A minor risk or cost of res, but nonetheless it is there. That wouldn't happen on the 2nd match. If teams knew their spawn after ready declaration and then could be given a time extension or 2nd ready phase, this makes both the 1st and 2nd instance of the matches exactly the same, no drawbacks, and also doesn't require static spawn.
Not really, you can scout where your enemy is before typing "ready". This is why the spawns are decided on map load.
Something like this:
Tram - alien randomly in Warehouse/Server Room | marines static in Shipping
Veil - alien static in Cargo
I'm not sure about Descent, haven't played it too much after the recent changes, energy flow/fabrication is not as bad for aliens as it used to be.
Exactly my point though. First and second match are started with the same knowledge. The second match is always dependent upon the first if we do your implementation. This is why the first match must have that kind of free information to be completely fair.
Have you not experienced the 5 rt build on north side? Even if you manage to harass the alien RT's and kill 2 of them, they still have enough RT's to out-tech you.
I've heard many many times that as marines you should try to keep a 5 to 3 ratio of RT's, 5 of yours for every 3 of theirs. When the aliens expand and take 5, in order to keep that ratio you have to kill 2 of theirs. While you're killing 2 of theirs, you're going to lose at least one of yours, but most likely 2-3. Since the map only has 10 Rt's, if the aliens start north side and cap all the rt's from ore-mez, there's really nothing you can do as marines even if you keep up constant pressure.
*edit*
What about something like this? You could have the mez vent come out under the power-node area in hub + remove the platform RT, It would keep the mez vent useful without giving too much of an advantage, and would also require the marines to be more defensive with their phase gates in hub. You could then have the aliens static spawn in warehouse so they can't get to the mez vent as quickly. It would allow the aliens to be more careful about scouting hub since you could use the props around the (relocated) vent as cover, and use the vent as an escape route. Also it would make that Observation RT less of a clusterfuck at the beginning since it would be harder for the aliens to get there undetected.
The static spawn in Warehouse + the removal of platform RT means the aliens could play it safe and expand towards server without such a large advantage, or they could be a little riskier and go towards repair for their first 3 RT's
Besides what rantology says, I wouldn't apply this to veil right now. I was thinking of tram mostly, maybe descent.
Also both rounds would have the same information (you can scout pre-game), so there would be no difference between round one and two.