Balance Test Changes - Constructive Skulk Movement Discussion
Kine
Join Date: 2013-06-12 Member: 185541Members
Join Date: 2013-06-12 Member: 185541Members
The following is made up of my opinions, let us have an intelligent discussion here and try not to degenerate into flames or "l34rn 2 skUlk n00b lololol". I ask that everyone respect the other's opinions in this thread so that we do not create pages and pages of useless filth.
TL;DR - Thanks CrazyEddie
Before I begin, I must say that the current game is one that I very much enjoy. I am thoroughly impressed by the care and attention that has been given to almost every aspect of the game and write this in an attempt to save my favorite shooter of all time from destruction. Hell, I am in the credits for Starcraft II, however when it comes down to an RTS I would much rather take the chair of command and attempt to heard a box of kittens/marines with a proverbial stick towards victory. Natural Call of Section 5: Vietnam Black Ops staring 'Will Smith' is not coming out next Christmas; and as such, is a game that will never be at the top of the best seller list. Not because its a poor game; however, the concepts in the game are too brilliant to be appreciated 'en masse' with the current state of the game industry. Games as a whole are expecting less and less of a player, but expecting more and more of their pocket book. Independent Studios(not backed by a major publisher) are the last vestige of awesome game design in the sea of clones and social games we are plagued with today. I don't have to say that Natural Selection is an incredibly unique game that requires an appreciation of games and at least an average IQ to truly enjoy, but It is indeed way ahead of its time. It is truly gaming at it's finest. I do not particularly enjoy posting on forums. I might browse occasionally, but I sincerely feel that the Balance Test Mod is not in the best interest of Natural Selection 2 and I need a figurative soap-box so that I do not feel I stood idly by. We let George Lucas create the 'New Star Wars' and take the guns out of 'E.T.', lets not let UWE unintentionally ruin this inspiring work of art.
Skulk Movement:
I feel that the issue that was attempting to be addressed with the changes to the skulk was that in high level play, marines with near perfect aim were able to easily decimate the skulk before it could close small distances due to the high fire rate of the default marine rifle and near perfect aim. This led to a situation where it was needed to sacrifice a skulk so that a second skulk could then close the gap to kill the marine and even then it was unlikely. There was not a high enough skill ceiling on the skulk when compared to the default rifle or shotgun. As it stands, the ceiling was raised, but also the floor lowered due to friction coefficients that were implemented in order to force you into moving a particular way. If we were building a house, we would not lower the floors by 6 feet, and raise the roof by 7 feet for a net result of 13 feet. We would simply add another story to the structure, another level of depth to the play.
What I feel is wrong with the skulk movement changes:
The changes successfully warp what were initially intuitive and well defined controls into something that feels sluggish and unresponsive. When playing the new skulk I can not pry this image of wading through a C-12 filled to the brim with mashed potatoes from my mind. Why? Because that's exactly what it feels like to me. Basic movement in a game should be simple, feel natural, and be incredibly responsive. Movement within a game is by far one of the most important, but under appreciated aspects. Again in my opinion, the changes do not reflect that at all. The overwhelming majority of players I have talked with feel the changes to alien movement are "gimping" them or are just not fluid enough. There are a few that stand by the changes with passion, but the impression I was left with was they just want to differentiate themselves as they could provide no solid arguments other than, "It takes more skill." and were indeed the minority.
The state of BT Skulk movement is similar to something as ridiculous as:
The result is not a more skillful, fun, or inventive game, but one that is more tedious. You don't play games to coordinate the movement of your left foot, right foot, and then manually focus your eyes. You don't even manually focus your eyes in real life; your brain does that for you. Its not something that is more fun to watch as a spectator sport. The physical speed of the game is faster making it more difficult to enjoy as a spectator. Even harder for the shout-casters to track than the game is already. The result is a game that is more focused on just being able to use the controls than actually playing.
The following is not a proposal for a change, but an example of what a solution should be. A solution that creates interesting and deep skulk play while strengthening team dynamics . Please do not fixate on the details or proposed values as I am attempting to help discover a path, rather than provide a map.
Ability: Phase Shift
Why would the above ability be a more desirable change than the bunny-hopping, wall humping state of the current BT skulk?
As you can see where we once had a problem, we have created a, albeit a bit rough, solution that echoes throughout the rest of the game improving and strengthening seemingly unrelated aspects. We have taken down a flock of birds with a single stone and even a rabbit on the ground below by pure luck for some delicious stew
We have left the general skulk that the player base as a whole understands and feels comfortable with alone, while providing additional tools for >>dealing with a single situation plaguing at most 12 players<<. We took a paint-brush to our canvas instead of a sledgehammer. Our gameplay is deeper, team-cohesion more robust, and the player-base feels like they have been given something new and exciting rather than robbed of the skulk they know and love.
As a community instead of fighting about if we support the balance test, or hate the balance test. Lets come up with solutions that make the game better, not different and tedious.
If we present our argument logically and thoughtfully UWE might not figuratively rape(as in: "To seize and take away by force") this beautiful and rapturous experience!
Based on the reception of this thread and the community input, I intend to write another post on Fade movement. However, I wish to leave you with a quote from one of the individuals I talked to about the changes to fade. Whoever you were I apologize for stealing your quote, but I felt it summed up the situation with the Fade changes nicely:
TL;DR - Thanks CrazyEddie
- As a community instead of fighting about if we support the balance test, or hate the balance test. Lets come up with solutions that make the game better, not different and tedious.
- Instead of throwing out the wheel, what can we do to augment the existing movement and solve the issues of the skulk in high level play?
- Does the solution build upon the team oriented aspects of the game instead of redefining them?
- A solution should not define how you can move; but instead, give you a tool that allows you to choose how you move.
- Using the example below as a template of what a solution should be, what can we come up with as a whole?
- Instead of throwing out the wheel, what can we do to augment the existing movement and solve the issues of the skulk in high level play?
- Does the solution build upon the team oriented aspects of the game instead of redefining them?
- A solution should not define how you can move; but instead, give you a tool that allows you to choose how you move.
- Using the example below as a template of what a solution should be, what can we come up with as a whole?
Before I begin, I must say that the current game is one that I very much enjoy. I am thoroughly impressed by the care and attention that has been given to almost every aspect of the game and write this in an attempt to save my favorite shooter of all time from destruction. Hell, I am in the credits for Starcraft II, however when it comes down to an RTS I would much rather take the chair of command and attempt to heard a box of kittens/marines with a proverbial stick towards victory. Natural Call of Section 5: Vietnam Black Ops staring 'Will Smith' is not coming out next Christmas; and as such, is a game that will never be at the top of the best seller list. Not because its a poor game; however, the concepts in the game are too brilliant to be appreciated 'en masse' with the current state of the game industry. Games as a whole are expecting less and less of a player, but expecting more and more of their pocket book. Independent Studios(not backed by a major publisher) are the last vestige of awesome game design in the sea of clones and social games we are plagued with today. I don't have to say that Natural Selection is an incredibly unique game that requires an appreciation of games and at least an average IQ to truly enjoy, but It is indeed way ahead of its time. It is truly gaming at it's finest. I do not particularly enjoy posting on forums. I might browse occasionally, but I sincerely feel that the Balance Test Mod is not in the best interest of Natural Selection 2 and I need a figurative soap-box so that I do not feel I stood idly by. We let George Lucas create the 'New Star Wars' and take the guns out of 'E.T.', lets not let UWE unintentionally ruin this inspiring work of art.
Skulk Movement:
I feel that the issue that was attempting to be addressed with the changes to the skulk was that in high level play, marines with near perfect aim were able to easily decimate the skulk before it could close small distances due to the high fire rate of the default marine rifle and near perfect aim. This led to a situation where it was needed to sacrifice a skulk so that a second skulk could then close the gap to kill the marine and even then it was unlikely. There was not a high enough skill ceiling on the skulk when compared to the default rifle or shotgun. As it stands, the ceiling was raised, but also the floor lowered due to friction coefficients that were implemented in order to force you into moving a particular way. If we were building a house, we would not lower the floors by 6 feet, and raise the roof by 7 feet for a net result of 13 feet. We would simply add another story to the structure, another level of depth to the play.
What I feel is wrong with the skulk movement changes:
- The jump height is much too high, often when chaining wall jumps one ends up colliding with the ceiling unintentionally([Departures<->Strand]@Docking and [SubAccess<->SystemWaypointing@Veil] come to mind. When clinging to a ceiling your skulk model is rotated(Instead of your vision. I am assuming due to gimbal locking issues as to the best of my knowledge NS2 does not use Quaternions) in order to reflect the surface normal of whatever you are clinging too. Shouldn't your jump reflect this also propelling you downwards?
- The jump acceleration/gravity feels much too sluggish. The skulk feels like it is generating aerodynamic lift, or you are bouncing on the moon(Maybe this could be justified somewhere like descent, but the gravitational acceleration seems to affect marines differently).
- The inability to change direction/strafe in mid-air. Why is a human carrying a rifle, 4 clips of ammo, an axe/welder, 3 proximity explosives, full battle armor, a pistol, a vision obstructing helmet, and an entire jetpack while wearing combat boots exponentially more agile when changing direction than a genetically enhanced, purpose bred, small to medium dog sized, alien that can climb on the ceiling?
- Why is that same marine able to have comparable speed on a flat surface to the "agile" alien. Has all of humanity been wiped out with only Kenya surviving to repopulate our numbers? The marines all look quite white to me.
- The skulk feels like it would be better suited to a joystick control scheme as strafing has basically become non-existant.
The changes successfully warp what were initially intuitive and well defined controls into something that feels sluggish and unresponsive. When playing the new skulk I can not pry this image of wading through a C-12 filled to the brim with mashed potatoes from my mind. Why? Because that's exactly what it feels like to me. Basic movement in a game should be simple, feel natural, and be incredibly responsive. Movement within a game is by far one of the most important, but under appreciated aspects. Again in my opinion, the changes do not reflect that at all. The overwhelming majority of players I have talked with feel the changes to alien movement are "gimping" them or are just not fluid enough. There are a few that stand by the changes with passion, but the impression I was left with was they just want to differentiate themselves as they could provide no solid arguments other than, "It takes more skill." and were indeed the minority.
The state of BT Skulk movement is similar to something as ridiculous as:
- Press[Q] to move your left foot.
- Press[E] to move your right foot.
- Hold[Shift] to focus your eyes.
The result is not a more skillful, fun, or inventive game, but one that is more tedious. You don't play games to coordinate the movement of your left foot, right foot, and then manually focus your eyes. You don't even manually focus your eyes in real life; your brain does that for you. Its not something that is more fun to watch as a spectator sport. The physical speed of the game is faster making it more difficult to enjoy as a spectator. Even harder for the shout-casters to track than the game is already. The result is a game that is more focused on just being able to use the controls than actually playing.
The following is not a proposal for a change, but an example of what a solution should be. A solution that creates interesting and deep skulk play while strengthening team dynamics . Please do not fixate on the details or proposed values as I am attempting to help discover a path, rather than provide a map.
Ability: Phase Shift
-After being airborne for n1/n2/n3(0.15f/0.1f/0.5f) seconds, the skulk is able to alter its current dimensional plane for n1/n2/n3(0.3f/0.375f/0.45f) seconds per spur.
-While in this state the skulk is:-Research on the shift for X resources.-Not able to attack
-Does not collide with non-world geometry(armories, marines, other skulks)
-Has no friction with the world
-Does not regenerate energy
-Can not take damage
-Costs Y energy, or has a fixed cooldown of Z seconds(doesn't really matter as this is a hypothetical ability).
-When shifting back into the original dimension, If the skulk is inside of a marine both the marine and skulk are ripped into shreds killing both players. Nearby players(both alien and marine) have their vision obscured momentarily by chunks of flesh and blood(similar to popping a cyst or getting hit by a gorge projectile).
-Should the skulk phase back into a nonorganic structure, robot, or exo-suit the skulk is instantly killed.
Why would the above ability be a more desirable change than the bunny-hopping, wall humping state of the current BT skulk?
- Skulks must be airborne before phase shifting:- This promotes a skulk keeping Speed.
- This promotes wall jumping.
- Allows level designers to create targeted gameplay spaces that can increase, or decrease this ability's usefulness.
- The ability has synergism with the number of spurs allowing the commander to make interesting decisions about how to spend resources and tailor to his current team's playstyle.
- As this ability is activated by the shift key it forces more timing and button mashing in order to execute it with "muffled hops"(Something the competitive scene seems to crave -.-).
- This ability's duration is short enough that it can not be spammed effectively, but long enough to still be useful.
- The ability's use and counter-use increase with player skill. As players become more skilled, they might hold their shots expecting the skulk to phase shift not wanting to waste ammo. In turn, the skulk could play off of this and not phase shift at all, effectively bluffing and saving his ability for another time. This creates feedback between opponents and creates an ever shifting "meta game" or style of play. This is interesting!
- Shifting into a marine:-Would obviously be something that takes extremely high precision of timing AND movement. It would require an extremely high skill level and understanding of your opponents movement in order to execute.
-Provides valuable synergy between skulks working together or skulks supporting in the late game. For example with high enough skill, a skulk can effectively take out a marine AND blind the exo-suit that he was welding. This promotes the team spreading out, but due to the changes with armor the marines should be clumping together more to weld each other. This is an interesting decision, "Do I stay close to my team-mates for increased armor and safety at the cost of potentially becoming blinded?"
-Consider the example of two skulks attempting to take down one marine where one must sacrifice himself so that the other can close the distance. Now, consider two skulks attempting to take down two marines with phase shift. The first skulk shifts into the first marine and is rewarded with killing him. The second marine is now blinded by the first skulk's sacrifice. The second skulk is able to use this to take down the second marine. The first player who made the sacrifice is rewarded with a terribly satisfying kill and has tipped the scales in his team's favor! The second player recognizes the first player's sacrifice and understands that his team mate helped him. This is a fun team-dynamic. This is a bonding experience between the two skulks and they now know they can play off of each-other. On the other side of the fence, It creates tension in the blinded marine. With the knowledge of "If I can just last until I am no longer blinded", this negative effect on the marine is a highpoint in gameplay, and can become very rewarding if he is able to survive and kill the second skulk.
- Shifting into an exo:- I am aware that above I stated shifting into structures, ARCs, MACs, or exos would kill the skulk.
- Imagine if you could shift into the exo, and kill the marine inside leaving the exo undamaged. This would of course require extreme precision in hitting the marine inside. Shifting into an exo at the wrong point would just kill the skulk.
- The exo would then open up similar to how they appear when the commander drops a 'single' at the cost of resources.
- The exo is now disabled as it has no pilot and can be attacked, but wait what about the welder?
- The welder can now get into the exo suit that was taken out by the precision skulk's shift. This encourages welding! The diligent welder could potentially be rewarded with an exo suit!
- But wait, getting into an exo-suit takes time, oh noes theres an Onos charging down the hall! Even though the exo was not taken out permanently by the skulk that shifted in, his team-mate was able to play off of the delay it caused allowing him to close the distance on the exo.
- Our exo-pilot was smart though and was traveling with a few marines with jetpacks and shotguns. Suppose rebooting an exo and suiting up takes 5 seconds maximum? The emergent behavior is a temporary tactical location on a map for the team. The aliens will undoubtedly swarm the disabled machine and it takes massive damage. The marines are able to fight off the advancing aliens while the supporting welder hops in! This creates dynamic locations on the map which must be attacked and defended. The crippled exo is extremely low in health and starts to retreat. Now we have a moving tactical location while the marines attempt to repair. While this is not a game defining event, it creates an unpredictable location that needs to be defended or attacked. This requires that players use team-work, communication, and coordination. This requires a commander to be observant and communicate, "Disabled Duelie in Drafting!!!" or "A lone skulk shifted the pilot of a solo rail-gun in 'Y-Junction' someone save it fast!". This is a highpoint of a match. This is fun. This is team oriented. This is Natural Selection.
-Allows interesting particle effects and shaders to be used creating eye candy.- Is more fun to watch as a spectator. Cross-dimensional travel, exploding flesh mist, and dynamic strategical objectives are simply more entertaining than precision key-strokes taking advantage of, for all intents and purposes, a bug with the original GoldSrc engine.
- Shows off the abilities of the Spark Engine which allows UWE to market their product for licensing to other studios.
- As a player it promotes the visceral themes embodied in the rest of the game.
- Oh yeaaaaa!!!
-Does not define how you can move, but it gives you a tool that allows you to choose how you move.
-Can be employed offensively or defensively. You can close the gap for an attack, or buy yourself precious moments for escape into a vent.
-Can be used to chain out of reach wall jumps as the friction of the skulk is reduced to 0.
As you can see where we once had a problem, we have created a, albeit a bit rough, solution that echoes throughout the rest of the game improving and strengthening seemingly unrelated aspects. We have taken down a flock of birds with a single stone and even a rabbit on the ground below by pure luck for some delicious stew
We have left the general skulk that the player base as a whole understands and feels comfortable with alone, while providing additional tools for >>dealing with a single situation plaguing at most 12 players<<. We took a paint-brush to our canvas instead of a sledgehammer. Our gameplay is deeper, team-cohesion more robust, and the player-base feels like they have been given something new and exciting rather than robbed of the skulk they know and love.
As a community instead of fighting about if we support the balance test, or hate the balance test. Lets come up with solutions that make the game better, not different and tedious.
If we present our argument logically and thoughtfully UWE might not figuratively rape(as in: "To seize and take away by force") this beautiful and rapturous experience!
Based on the reception of this thread and the community input, I intend to write another post on Fade movement. However, I wish to leave you with a quote from one of the individuals I talked to about the changes to fade. Whoever you were I apologize for stealing your quote, but I felt it summed up the situation with the Fade changes nicely:
"I weep for fade..."
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
The solution for me to any skulk movement problems would be to revert to pre-brick skulks, they felt great. The air control, acceleration, everything just seemed almost perfect.
I don't believe you read my post fully. To quote myself:
The fact of the matter is that the movement was never an issue except at the top tiers of play. It is quite clear that UWE is intent on catering to the upper echelon of players, so the ideas above are merely an example of what a solution could be, not a finite implementation. Rather than destroying the current skulk, build upon it and help it evolve into something that can combat the balance issues.
I see that you disagree with my post. Would you mind providing a few comments or stating why you feel that way?
Why do you support the complete overhaul of the skulk rather than coming up with something that solves the problem, but does not destroy what has already been created?
If you just click a button saying, Yes/No we can not work together as a community to find a common ground. Let's hear what you have to say
That's called rose tinted glasses, that Skulk was broken to high end and what made it strong was what made people so annoyed with the game, like wonky hit-box and broken animation.
OP like most writes a lot but actually delivers very little, he asked to build on the old Skulk that we can come together to make it better, good propaganda piece, but actually means nothing, at the moment there is an actual new skulk which is better the one we've got, and unlike the pre-build 240, doesn't rely on dodgy parts of the engine to make it strong. I say until someone comes up with a better skulk, BT skulk all the way.
Also the BT Skulk only requires you to use wall jump to be good, if you want to master it then there is more to the movement mechanic, but anyone can use the Skulk effectively at the base level, just takes practice to master it.
The problems with the hitbox and twitchy animations were problems, but there was no reason to nerf the skulk itself. The B239 Skulk was actually fun and useful. Return the Skulk to the B239 version (without the hitbox and animation problems) and suddenly the Skulk is fun to play again.
Do you know why the Skulk was changed in such a way, it was because it was the only way to fix those issues, they just didn't decide to make the Skulk weaker, it was a compromise.
That's why you can not have that Skulk back, but the BT skulk is here and good, even better then the old one, it useable by both people who want to use it at the base level and people who want to master the movement.
That's a really bad compromise. I also highly doubt that making the Skulk unplayable was the only way to deal with twitchy animations.
Not really while the current skulk isn't great, its speed isn't that lowered in comparison. Well it makes sense to fix the animation and hit-box, slowing it makes the hit-reg less of an issue, also the animation requires less refresh as-well, because what would happen for the it catch up you would get this annoying twitch, basically slowing the skulk was the only real option.
The BT kinda suffered this as-well, but increase bullet size, spread and hitbox, make it less of an issue, I guess UWE just wanted a more solid Skulk, also Sewlek had more time on his hands to think of another solution.
What do you like about the skulk in question? What makes it so much better?
Just saying something is great does not make it so. Can you please elaborate?
I added a TL;DR section to the original post. Thanks for the input
Noobs wont let me jungle with my new skulk so i can rush fade to solo rosh and get aegis early!
@Kine
Scatter's got a point, there's far FAR too much 'tiny detail' going on here, how exactly are you meant to, exactly, find any use in most of this?
Shifting into an exosuit to kill, the marine inside? What the bloody heck?
What you want is a far overcomplicated version of the game that yields little to no benefits over the current iteration.
Go home, you're drunk.
I think the new skulk movement is fine but it takes some getting used to. At least it's useful now.
Not to derail the thread, but Lol Ursa. All you need is a push-stick and wards to shut him down.
Also, as I stated above. I was not proposing a finite solution. I was demonstrating an example of what a solution might be.
Can you please keep the "name calling" to a minimum too? I am not offended in the slightest, but we are trying to keep this discussion civil and it is a slippery slope my friend.
Again, can we please try to keep things civil? One of the stipulations of this thread is that we respect everyone's opinions.
Would you mind detailing why you think it is fine?
What makes it so useful?
I completely agree with you that it will "take some getting used to". I just don't understand how cutting off an entire arm and attempting to grow another is the most logical solution for a splinter in your finger.
Have you seen this?
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/130369/video-tutorial-balance-testing-skulk-fade-movement-beginner-to-advanced
It should cover it pretty well.
I would still love for you to give me some actual thoughts here rather than diverting to a link.
I actually discussed the changes in a series of games with @ezekel for about an hour or so the other evening. However, he was not able to provide much of an argument other than(excuse the paraphrasing), "Your IQ is low and you are bad. That is why you don't like it".
As I stated in my original post:
He is one of the key individuals that stood out in my mind. I would love to get him in here as he was very passionate about his point of view.
Hey thanks for the input Ayanomoose.
Would you mind elaborating on what you don't like about the new skulk?
I am not making a suggestion on how to fix the issue. I was providing an example of what a solution should be like.
Yea I can't think of anything better than wallhopping lol..
I disagree with "The result is a game that is more focused on just being able to use the controls than actually playing." i suppose..
Because i only use the RMB and Spacebar to wallhop... no other controls are necessary?
You even have jump queuing, feedback sounds, and you barely have to aim or be terribly close to a wall.
Yeah let's invent the wheel twice. I gave my thoughts, I think it's fine. Isn't that enough? Your thoughts was that it felt like walking in mashed potatoes (It doesn't). It feels fluid and requires some practice. The speed increase in combination with harder control (and sounds) while moving fast is a good combination. Also correct me if I'm wrong but jump height was also increased? Felt like it made it much more harder to aim for the marines. It takes some getting used to, as with any change. A common thing for changes is that people in general do not like them at first, something that applies to pretty much any game. How many hours have you played as a skulk in BT?
You keep referring to your example which is almost an entire A4 but yet it should not to be brought into the discussion?
Skulk movement has been modified to scale with marine aim. This is done by using a combination of walljump & w+jump when landing on the ground. Its simple, easy, provides air control and has a large amount of creativity, skill and decision making behind it. I really don't understand what this thread is supposed to achieve?
Show me an example of something better than this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YRUP53ilzPk#t=112s
Additionally, can the casual players stop making hypothesis regarding skulk movement in competitive play. Unless your a comp player, you have no idea so just shhh.... As gamers that play the game 1000x more than you we simply know better, so whatever point you think you are going to make we have already thought about and either decided its irrelevant or wrong.
get my name out of your mouth, that entire server was shit talking me while I was trying to be as nice as possible and explain some of the changes since it was everyones first time with the mod
So, you all shit talked me massively; and I came back and did the same. Don't like it? Then don't do it to someone else
*snip *