Aliens vs. Marines, new build 250 is broken!
Montyp
Join Date: 2013-04-22 Member: 184930Members
Join Date: 2013-04-22 Member: 184930Members
This is 1 mans perspective on build 250,
Aliens upgraded with 3 hives 630 Res
Marines upgraded with 2 Chairs fully upgraded 575 Res
If Aliens lose a base it costs 90 Res (or 150 if 3 Spurs/Veils/Shells get killed.) (Not including crags, shifts of shades that we're present in the base.)
If marines lose a full base, to rebuild it costs 80 Res. (15 phase, 20 obs, 15 chair, 10 armory, 20 IP) Less if you just want to get a beacon base. (Phase, Obs, Chair)
So in summation, Marines lose very few upgrades, Aliens tend to lose ALOT more, When a hive goes down they lose biomass (health and access to upgrades). When a Marine loses a Command Chair they lose a foothold in the map, and it costs them next to nothing to rebuild, the only access to upgrades they lose is access to Dual Exo's.
This is not balanced game play, it encourages early rushes at the beginning to just get the game over with. On the flip side, if you don't rush as Marines they just need to hold onto 2-3 extractors. If they can do this, they will end up with more than enough res to have full upgrades by 15 minutes (that means Exo's).
Once the game gets to the 30 minute mark, if Aliens have been unable to reduce the marines extractors to 1-2 the game then becomes a landslide of marine tech, Exos, grenade launchers and Arcs. I've recovered from a losing game as marines just because we had 4 Exos in an 8v8, Marine com jumped into an Exo while we pushed, sacrificed himself chasing a final Onos, and dropped a full phase in the forward base we just reclaimed.
So on the flip-side as Aliens, it seems to be angled towards Marines. Aliens even when they are CRUSHING, working together, hitting res nodes and keeping the Marines contained! You're doin' great! Somehow the Marines, keep leveling up. They now have more deadly weapons, Phase Gates in areas you were sure were once secured. Also weapons that can't be countered, Grenades can now be used to counter whips instead of the other way around... Which sucks, Flamethrowers counter basically everything else, kills bile, spores, umbra and energy.
Marines can thrive off of 3 res towers, this game is about Endurance for Marines not early decisive strategy.
Aliens need a minimum of 4-5 res towers to survive, while keeping the Marines Res towers down.
Marines have access to advanced weapons which have no counter
Aliens have advanced lifeforms which are one time use only, a Grenade launcher unloaded at an Onos will ruin even the most well prepared Aliens day.
Marines have 1 structure to upgrade that costs 20 Res, if one is destroyed you build another no harm no foul, only thing you lose is the time it takes to rebuild
Aliens require Hives that (cost 90 res) and 3 upgrade structures per Hive (costs 20 res Each) Aliens require that you rebuild all of these structures which require the use of drifters (5TRes) or a gorge (5-14 PRes)
Marines can have any upgrade their heart desires from 1 Command Chair sans Dual Exos
Aliens require 2-3 hives to have the majority of useful upgrades, without the hives they lose health and access to upgrades.
Marines that lose a chair are punished by not having access to dual exos ^^
Aliens are punished by being unable to access any upgrades ^^ (had to be said twice!)
Marines have a counter for ALL Alien attacks
Aliens have no counter for grenades
Marine Commander can drop Weapons and Exos INSTANTLY at no additional cost spending TeamRes
Aliens Kahmmanders can drop Eggs for advanced life forms at significant additional costs using TeamRes plus the double gestation time once to build the egg (which is unable to be sped up, then again once someone jumps in the egg.
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The games are longer but a lot less exciting, I adore a lot of the changes but because this is coming as a 1/1 transfer from a mod called Balance Test Mod. But just using the couple things listed above, its clear to see that the majority of changes have unbalanced to game to almost be unrecognizable. After the Gorgeous update the game had a tit-for-tat, in build 250 Marines are able to crush using early advanced weapons that have no counter. I want this game to be fun for both sides playing, not to feel like no matter what I'm doing I'm losing until the 30 minute mark when my team has maxed out upgrades and I can get enough lifeforms/weapons on the field.
I love NS2, I've played since NS1 and I know its gone through ALOT of changes, its one of the things that make this game great. Turning the game into something that feels like I'm grinding rather than making Strategic moves.
It used to be a game of chess, now it feels like we're breakin' rocks until one side messes up.
Balance needs to be revisited soon
Aliens upgraded with 3 hives 630 Res
Marines upgraded with 2 Chairs fully upgraded 575 Res
If Aliens lose a base it costs 90 Res (or 150 if 3 Spurs/Veils/Shells get killed.) (Not including crags, shifts of shades that we're present in the base.)
If marines lose a full base, to rebuild it costs 80 Res. (15 phase, 20 obs, 15 chair, 10 armory, 20 IP) Less if you just want to get a beacon base. (Phase, Obs, Chair)
So in summation, Marines lose very few upgrades, Aliens tend to lose ALOT more, When a hive goes down they lose biomass (health and access to upgrades). When a Marine loses a Command Chair they lose a foothold in the map, and it costs them next to nothing to rebuild, the only access to upgrades they lose is access to Dual Exo's.
This is not balanced game play, it encourages early rushes at the beginning to just get the game over with. On the flip side, if you don't rush as Marines they just need to hold onto 2-3 extractors. If they can do this, they will end up with more than enough res to have full upgrades by 15 minutes (that means Exo's).
Once the game gets to the 30 minute mark, if Aliens have been unable to reduce the marines extractors to 1-2 the game then becomes a landslide of marine tech, Exos, grenade launchers and Arcs. I've recovered from a losing game as marines just because we had 4 Exos in an 8v8, Marine com jumped into an Exo while we pushed, sacrificed himself chasing a final Onos, and dropped a full phase in the forward base we just reclaimed.
So on the flip-side as Aliens, it seems to be angled towards Marines. Aliens even when they are CRUSHING, working together, hitting res nodes and keeping the Marines contained! You're doin' great! Somehow the Marines, keep leveling up. They now have more deadly weapons, Phase Gates in areas you were sure were once secured. Also weapons that can't be countered, Grenades can now be used to counter whips instead of the other way around... Which sucks, Flamethrowers counter basically everything else, kills bile, spores, umbra and energy.
Marines can thrive off of 3 res towers, this game is about Endurance for Marines not early decisive strategy.
Aliens need a minimum of 4-5 res towers to survive, while keeping the Marines Res towers down.
Marines have access to advanced weapons which have no counter
Aliens have advanced lifeforms which are one time use only, a Grenade launcher unloaded at an Onos will ruin even the most well prepared Aliens day.
Marines have 1 structure to upgrade that costs 20 Res, if one is destroyed you build another no harm no foul, only thing you lose is the time it takes to rebuild
Aliens require Hives that (cost 90 res) and 3 upgrade structures per Hive (costs 20 res Each) Aliens require that you rebuild all of these structures which require the use of drifters (5TRes) or a gorge (5-14 PRes)
Marines can have any upgrade their heart desires from 1 Command Chair sans Dual Exos
Aliens require 2-3 hives to have the majority of useful upgrades, without the hives they lose health and access to upgrades.
Marines that lose a chair are punished by not having access to dual exos ^^
Aliens are punished by being unable to access any upgrades ^^ (had to be said twice!)
Marines have a counter for ALL Alien attacks
Aliens have no counter for grenades
Marine Commander can drop Weapons and Exos INSTANTLY at no additional cost spending TeamRes
Aliens Kahmmanders can drop Eggs for advanced life forms at significant additional costs using TeamRes plus the double gestation time once to build the egg (which is unable to be sped up, then again once someone jumps in the egg.
___________________________________________
The games are longer but a lot less exciting, I adore a lot of the changes but because this is coming as a 1/1 transfer from a mod called Balance Test Mod. But just using the couple things listed above, its clear to see that the majority of changes have unbalanced to game to almost be unrecognizable. After the Gorgeous update the game had a tit-for-tat, in build 250 Marines are able to crush using early advanced weapons that have no counter. I want this game to be fun for both sides playing, not to feel like no matter what I'm doing I'm losing until the 30 minute mark when my team has maxed out upgrades and I can get enough lifeforms/weapons on the field.
I love NS2, I've played since NS1 and I know its gone through ALOT of changes, its one of the things that make this game great. Turning the game into something that feels like I'm grinding rather than making Strategic moves.
It used to be a game of chess, now it feels like we're breakin' rocks until one side messes up.
Balance needs to be revisited soon
Comments
My question is what kind of impression does this leave on newer players about the alien team when (to them) it seems like aliens can do nothing against a death march of 3-5 exos after a certain point? My best solution has been to try and rally the aliens to get as many gorges as exos and go to town on their base/the exos, but even then they drop like flies due to inexperience and feel like they can't do anything. Meanwhile when they join marines and jump into exosuits they are able to do a lot better.
And also have trouble with GL's. If used right it's really hard to counter GL's and your health as alien goes down way to fast I find myself fleeing the room if being a small lifeform
Possibly make it so in order to get weapons 3 armor 3 a second chair is required.
Drifters being able to be camo should come back too. Even if it needs to be an upgrade per drifter.
I've got 350+ hrs in NS2 and it feels like that to me, Aliens feel and seem too weak and i spend most of my time complaining then enjoying the game. The match is still determined in the first 10mins of the game, might aswell leave now when you know who's gonna win at this time.
I really have no hope for this game anymore, there was once a time where i believed UWE will get it right, but its still not there.
The problem here, like I said, isn't that aliens are weaker. The problem *I* saw was both of these games had at least 5 green players or more who had now idea how to group up and slap together gorge/onos/lerk(with umbra) teams to go smash down bases. They all just kind of randomly ran around the map doing whatever. One random onos would go running into the marine base just to die. This would go on and on until the marines would manage to kill enough onos and then they'd push out and kill a base, and on and on.
You see, it's absolutely impossible to slap a judgement on the patch right now. There's just FAR too many new players who's lack of experience is giving the aliens a false rep. I played on alien teams with a few good players on both sides and we still managed to win. It all just comes down to getting new players willing to listen and work together and communicate.
You'll see what I mean after a few weeks.
http://www.ensl.org/articles/801
Arms Labs are relative cheap to build, and multiple Arms Labs can be built in multiple locations to provide backup. Although the upgrades Arms Labs offer are expensive, they can be researched on one base, allowing marines to scale extremely well without suffering significant drawbacks (unlike the alien hive upgrade system).
I would suggest making Weapons and Armour level 3 upgrades require at least 2 Command Stations to research and maintain. Marine one-base defense, as well as come-back are too strong at the moment.
I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head here. Although I reckon the onos is too weak still, but otherwise, yeah it's mostly people not knowing wth to do as aliens!
Roo
This is wrong. It takes 11 grenades (direct hits) to kill an onos with 1 biomass and no carapace. With max biomass/carapace it takes 15, and with regen instead it might be closer to 18.
This is actually noticably weaker than the other marine weapons. A shotgun at w3 can kill that same 1bio onos in 9 shots which are obviously MUCH faster, and a flamethrower can do about 80% of the onos life in one can.
If you don't play to win, it isn't hard to figure out that you probably won't win. Besides, playing as a gorge is awesome. Getting the best score while going 0-0? Hell yeah.
Compared with build 249: 57.5% Alien v 42.5% Marine
And aliens are spending res on drifters, hopefully drifter clouds and possibly echo or heal wave, plus crags/shifts/shades.
The old alien strats where you could rush gas, rush xenocide, etc are completely gone
The lack of strats means that the Marine team can very easily predict what you're going to do next and counter it ahead of time
On top of it Marines have new strategies (like ignoring WPN damage upgrades and going for flame/GL with only +Armor)
Scouting is also way down on aliens side. . . you may completely blow out a tech point and 2 minutes later it's all rebuilt if nobody was camping it
I've been in games where you could not stop the ninja phase gates going up (map made it impossible to cover every route)
It's very, very easy for Marines to keep aliens on the backfoot the whole game even if they were losing for the first 15 minutes as OP says
Not all bad though. . . lifeforms being cheaper can surprise the marines at how fast you can get basic stuff out
Egg lock rarely happens any longer and you can also work any low biomass level-required tech immediately
Marines can still be blown out if aliens walk into their base via the one route they didn't send guys at the start
Balance is going to probably need a gentle touch for a bit now that so many new users are on, but I'm going to keep watching how the resource game unfolds. . .
Fade eggs costing 70 res basically made me yack
I think one thing aliens desperately need back is the cloaking drifters. Without that aliens have too hard a time figuring out what is going on in their own areas. It's not just that drifters are too easy to kill, but because the marines can see drifters they know exactly when they are and aren't being watched. Combine that with being able to build on infestation and there's basically nothing aliens can do to prevent backdooring.
If the drifter dies, then you know marines are in that room. You should also have skulks canvasing the map. No need to go back to fire and forget scouting. It was bad for gameplay in my opinion.
Except that the marine knows there's a drifter in the room, or more importantly, he knows there's NOT a drifter in the room and hes free to put up a phase gate or camp a resource nozzle with little fear of being molested. There's no way for the alien team to scout the entire map, even their own territory, continuously.
Marines don't have any of that worry. At worst, aliens can mass outside a marine bass outside obs range, but the moment they enter they show up on the obs and the comm can beacon.
The problem is that building is loud and can be heard from a pretty obscene distance. There are a ton of cues the alien team can use to prevent these "ninja" situations. Prior builds it was a small res investment for a scout who could potentially never die. Where as the marine equivalent is a temporary scan with a small res cost or a larger investment for an obs that is stationary and tells the alien that they are being watched with a HUD effect. I don't think aliens should be able to plop an AI unit in a room and be able to watch marines all day long without them having any clue.
The use of drifters pre250 (when commanders actually used them) was like infestation granting vision in the beta levels of lame. They even surpassed it by allowing vision in marine "territory".
Clues if aliens are in the area, which is basically asking half the team to be goofing off around their own bases at all times, aliens have a LOT of ground to cover. They also don't have a whole lot of time, and with things being buildable on infestation now they can't even cover their ass that way either.
Remember drifter vision is relatively short range and line of sight only. Observatories have a much greater radius and see through all walls, plus aliens have nothing they can do in a marine base except attack.
The power of 1 comm station marines certainly needs to be reconsidered. JPs and railgun EXOs might be ok, but the damage output of even a single minigun EXO is pretty considerable. The ArmsLab is another issue that needs to be reassessed. Aliens can be cut down on biomass, upgrades and abilities - all taking considerable time and res to rebuild. Marines can rebuild and retain all upgrades with minimal res expense in very little time. Perhaps a lose of ArmsLab should remove one level of upgrades (A2/W3 ArmsLab destroyed would result in instant change to A1/W2). This way, losing multiple ArmsLabs would be a significant hit to marines upgrades requiring new research and res expense. It would make the targeting of an ArmsLab have more significance than just a bit of res and build time.
Aliens do NOT need 4-5 res nodes, they can still sit on 3 quite happily and get all their tech without issues.
Do you just make shit up as you go? Aliens need more res, not less, it's a proven fact if you look at the costs across the board. Marines not only use less res to build everything they need, but they also can skip 2/3rds of their tech tree if they are stuck in a base and have a particular strategy in mind. Aliens do NOT get that luxury.
No all it takes is one skulk. No need to have the whole team doing it unless he/she finds something. Marines also build 25% slower on infestation and infestation damages the armor of structures. Phase gate health was also nerfed in 250 for just this reason.