The model looks really, really good. Cory and team, I am very impressed with your work here. Besides just the nuts-n-bolts of technical and graphical excellence which we have come to expect from you by now, I want to specifically call out the aesthetics of the design. Geometry, pose, texturing, all of it combine to make a figure which is distinctly female and distinctly feminine (two different things) without being sexualized - in fact, without raising any gender-associated negative implications at all (for either gender). That can not have been easy. Kudos.
I actually don't have anything against the absurd female costuming and armor tropes common in gaming. They're tropes. I don't think they're exploitive, although I understand why others do. I think in many cases they're ridiculous, but in many other cases they fit the work in question just fine.
I'm glad UWE didn't go with the tropes here - not because that would have been some kind of horrible crime against women or decency, but because it would have been completely out of line with the NS2 aesthetic.
By contrast, what UWE has done here with this model is perfectly in line with the NS2 aesthetic. The figure is, as stated, completely badass. Not despite being female, and not because of being female, but in addition to being female. That seems exactly right to me. She's going to fight, kill, and die. She's going to burn down hives and get thrown across the room in a broken heap. She's a marine. She's perfect for the job.
I'm of three minds on the publicity surrounding the model's announcement.
One one hand, I was disappointed to see such prominence given to "Hey, look, we didn't give her a ridiculous tits-and-ass costume like everyone else does." That fact that you didn't do that shouldn't be remarkable, any more than saying "Hey, look, our game runs on PCs" or "Hey, look, we have guns". It almost seems to me as if pointing out that you're not capitalizing on female sexuality is itself still capitalizing on female sexuality, or rather, capitalizing on the controversy, which somehow still feels like capitalizing on the underlying issue which spurred the controversy.
On the other hand, the sad fact is that what you've done (or not done) is in fact unusual, and noteworthy, and laudable, and worth making a point of pointing out in your PR.
And on the gripping hand - if you strip away all of the gender politics and controversy and look at what you've done not as a statement of values but simply as a work of art, a creative expression of aesthetics... then the attention and execution that you've put into it is by itself worthy of pointing out. So, yeah. Ultimately I'm cool with you saying "Hey, look, she's not a fanboy stereotype!" because even without dragging any questions about feminism and culture into the discussion it's still a notable artistic accomplishment. So go ahead and note it.
I was disappointed to see such prominence given to "Hey, look, we didn't give her a ridiculous tits-and-ass costume like everyone else does." That fact that you didn't do that shouldn't be remarkable, any more than saying "Hey, look, our game runs on PCs" or "Hey, look, we have guns". It almost seems to me as if pointing out that you're not capitalizing on female sexuality is itself still capitalizing on female sexuality, or rather, capitalizing on the controversy, which somehow still feels like capitalizing on the underlying issue which spurred the controversy.
UWE is terrible with things like this. When gorgeous came out they made a huge deal out of how they were so much better than everyone else because OMG WERE GIVING YOU FREE STUFF. When in reality, they didn't give you anything for free (you still had to buy NS2), and content updates are not a new thing. If I hadn't already bought NS2, that kind of a marketing campaign would have driven me away from a purchase because I find it to be very patronizing.
Uh.. giving them out for free sure isn't the status quo today??
Everyone tries to nickle and dime you for $15 map packs and hats and gear and even sometimes things they call "Expansions" and charge more, but they are really just map packs and hats and gear.
UWE does it all for free because you already bought the game, and they just believe in giving you more for your money.
They reward their fans instead of nickle and diming them...
And They believe in gender equality in games..
and that's okay to point out as a company.. god forbid such things catch on in the industry as a selling point...?
That's the point that i guess you missed?
I have zero clue how you could feel offended by such a thing. We should be throwing our money at any developer who follows suit.
Uh.. giving them out for free sure isn't the status quo today??
Everyone tries to nickle and dime you for $15 map packs and hats and gear and even sometimes things they call "Expansions" and charge more, but they are really just map packs and hats and gear.
UWE does it all for free because you already bought the game, and they just believe in giving you more for your money.
They reward their fans instead of nickle and diming them...
And They believe in gender equality in games..
and that's okay to point out as a company.. god forbid such things catch on in the industry as a selling point...?
That's the point that i guess you missed?
I have zero clue how you could feel offended by such a thing. We should be throwing our money at any developer who follows suit.
The point is it's patronizing. I'm not saying that they're wrong for doing it, but they're being patronizing when they act like they're special/better because they do this. Literally every game that i've played somewhat seriously over the past 2 years has had free content updates. Tribes Ascend is 100% free, and came out with free updates that included weapons and maps. Smite has done the same. TF2 came out with an entire new game mode that is given to people for free. In fact the only things those games sell that you can't get for free are cosmetics. NS2 did something similar when they charged you extra for Black/Deluxe armor.
UWE does some great stuff, I'm not trying to argue with that. I just think they have terrible PR/marketing. Gorgeous brought some cool new stuff, build 250 is one of the best things I've seen a company do to update their game post release. But people/companies who say "Hey, Look at us! We're different!" just leave a really bad taste in my mouth. I'm not offended by it, but I'm always put-off by people who want to act superior simply because they're doing things the way they should be doing them.
I've never had the impression that UWE have been like that?
They've always announced them as updates and keeping us informed as to what is going on with the game.
The game industry has a history of depicting female characters inappropriately. Often, they are stylised to such a degree that they become sexual objects: While their male comrades are clothed, armed and armoured to fight, the female character is notable for the lack of any clothing at all. When female characters are granted equal protection, that protection often ignores basic laws of physics in favour of offering titillating form.
This is not good enough, and it’s not a trope Unknown Worlds will entertain. Games are legitimate cultural influences, and game developers are responsible for the message they choose to convey to players. The Natural Selection 2 female marine is first and foremost, like her male colleague, a soldier. Her armour puts function before form, while adopting the science fiction, melee combat aligned design ques that have made the male marine so uniquely recognisable.protection, that protection often ignores basic laws of physics in favour of offering titillating form.
Out of a 6 paragraph article, there are 2 paragraphs going into why UWE is good and everyone who doesn't do things like them are not good enough.
I'm making it seem like it's a much bigger deal than it actually is by making so many posts about it. At most, I'm just annoyed by the fact that they either feel the need to be/don't understand that they are being patronizing.
The female marine model looks great, even if it does look a little too androgynous for my tastes.
Oh that, pretty much standard words typed for business profiles today.
Let's take EA for example - "Electronic Arts is committed to making a difference in the communities where we live and work by demonstrating responsibility and good citizenship"
"EA strives to reach out to students and teachers alike to inspire and encourage the pursuit of math, computer science, music and the arts"
Shit there's pages and pages of this crap! and That's not even the environment crap they babble on about.
@ritualsacrifice ... literally.. every one of those games you just listed were free to play... of course their updates were free?? i dont even.... )
I guess a better way to have phrased it is in a world where free-to-play is becoming more and more common, releasing a free update for your paid game is not something that sets you apart from the crowd.
I know that the way I feel is probably only shared by a minority of the people who play NS2, and especially on the forums. I don't really want to debate about it because there isn't much point in arguing about personal feelings. I'm just trying to put it out there for consideration.
I've always been strongly in favor of putting your product/art/whatever out into the world and letting it speak for itself. If it's actually different/better, people will notice and appreciate it without you trying to sell them on the idea that your product/company is superior. The cream rises to the top whether it's being sold or not.
@RockyMarc, that's kind of the point I'm getting at xD If your company is better than the others, then people will notice it on their own.
That said, at least UWE has a good track record of backing up their words with actions.
Okay because I asked for you to make the woman, look more like a woman and give her gender specific features. You're changing my posts? Explain without being rude please.
I agree, i opened this thread and thought, wheres the woman. What a waste of time if it doesn't even look feminine.
Alien gets in a room, spots the only marine ( the new one ) and instead of showing awesome skill of biting, cutting, spiking, dodging, heal spraying and such, the alien will engage in a different manner ( It's all true story, I checked the CODE! ) He'd get close to the hot chick and ask her:
"What you doin tonight, honey?" *in alien language*
**BAAM** XP Alien dead, marine win!
See, OP! I demand immediate actions from UWE to stop the future Alien genocide or I'll call the nature protection agency!
I really don't get why everyone has their panties in a bunch... I mean I understand what UWE is going for and I think it's awesome or whatever, but this pretty much looks the same as the male marine model. The original concept art was way better than what we're actually getting.
That picture has a better helmet, a more feminine face (i think the one that's going into the game looks rather androgynous), the armor on the torso looks better (less like a 6 pack + pecs).
I'm not saying she needs big tits and high heels, but tbh I don't really understand why it took so long to get this in the game when we're essentially just getting a slightly skinnier male marine.
I'm glad they didn't go with the design choice to put "boob slots" (idk what else to call them) in the armor. I mean seriously, who designs armor like that?
this one looks more like it would kick my ass than the other one. Which is what the female marine should look like since she's there to kick some ass.
I thought the Kharaa were beings infested with a man-made bacterium making them asexual? At least that's how I remember reading the art book.
Kharaa is what the Bacterium is, and it's alien. The "lifeforms" you see in game were taken by the bacterium and modified/improved to suit the needs of the bacterium. It doesn't really have a sex either way.
And here I thought that the Humans were just reaping what they sowed. Damn. I guess the Humans really are the good guys.
I thought the Kharaa were beings infested with a man-made bacterium making them asexual? At least that's how I remember reading the art book.
Kharaa is what the Bacterium is, and it's alien. The "lifeforms" you see in game were taken by the bacterium and modified/improved to suit the needs of the bacterium. It doesn't really have a sex either way.
And here I thought that the Humans were just reaping what they sowed. Damn. I guess the Humans really are the good guys.
I'm sorry, but bacteria or no, there's jut no way the gorges are the bad guys.
The only reason why UWE has introduced the female marine is so now we can get a queen gorge that lays eggs and they have a big fight off with the words getting thrown around like "Get away from her, you b!tch!"
I thought the Kharaa were beings infested with a man-made bacterium making them asexual? At least that's how I remember reading the art book.
Kharaa is what the Bacterium is, and it's alien. The "lifeforms" you see in game were taken by the bacterium and modified/improved to suit the needs of the bacterium. It doesn't really have a sex either way.
And here I thought that the Humans were just reaping what they sowed. Damn. I guess the Humans really are the good guys.
I'm sorry, but bacteria or no, there's jut no way the gorges are the bad guys.
You know maybe they were right about video games turning people into killers. When I first started NS2 I found it very hard to kill those cute Gorges. Now I don't even blink an eye.
My hands are soaked with the blood and bile of Gorges. What have I become?!?
You... you kill the gorges? What the feck is wrong with you man!?!?
All the studies done saying that games don't make killers you have just obviously proved them all wrong!
The only reason why UWE has introduced the female marine is so now we can get a queen gorge that lays eggs and they have a big fight off with the words getting thrown around like "Get away from her, you b!tch!"
No, that would be the female engineer.
The female marine came to a rather different fate as I recall it.
Comments
dat onass
Man, I got all excited and looked at myself in the mirror. All I saw was a goofy idiot grinning back at me!
because I saw a sexy beast smiling back.
:shrug :
:bz
- The model looks really, really good. Cory and team, I am very impressed with your work here. Besides just the nuts-n-bolts of technical and graphical excellence which we have come to expect from you by now, I want to specifically call out the aesthetics of the design. Geometry, pose, texturing, all of it combine to make a figure which is distinctly female and distinctly feminine (two different things) without being sexualized - in fact, without raising any gender-associated negative implications at all (for either gender). That can not have been easy. Kudos.
- I actually don't have anything against the absurd female costuming and armor tropes common in gaming. They're tropes. I don't think they're exploitive, although I understand why others do. I think in many cases they're ridiculous, but in many other cases they fit the work in question just fine.
- I'm glad UWE didn't go with the tropes here - not because that would have been some kind of horrible crime against women or decency, but because it would have been completely out of line with the NS2 aesthetic.
- By contrast, what UWE has done here with this model is perfectly in line with the NS2 aesthetic. The figure is, as stated, completely badass. Not despite being female, and not because of being female, but in addition to being female. That seems exactly right to me. She's going to fight, kill, and die. She's going to burn down hives and get thrown across the room in a broken heap. She's a marine. She's perfect for the job.
- I'm of three minds on the publicity surrounding the model's announcement.
- One one hand, I was disappointed to see such prominence given to "Hey, look, we didn't give her a ridiculous tits-and-ass costume like everyone else does." That fact that you didn't do that shouldn't be remarkable, any more than saying "Hey, look, our game runs on PCs" or "Hey, look, we have guns". It almost seems to me as if pointing out that you're not capitalizing on female sexuality is itself still capitalizing on female sexuality, or rather, capitalizing on the controversy, which somehow still feels like capitalizing on the underlying issue which spurred the controversy.
- On the other hand, the sad fact is that what you've done (or not done) is in fact unusual, and noteworthy, and laudable, and worth making a point of pointing out in your PR.
- And on the gripping hand - if you strip away all of the gender politics and controversy and look at what you've done not as a statement of values but simply as a work of art, a creative expression of aesthetics... then the attention and execution that you've put into it is by itself worthy of pointing out. So, yeah. Ultimately I'm cool with you saying "Hey, look, she's not a fanboy stereotype!" because even without dragging any questions about feminism and culture into the discussion it's still a notable artistic accomplishment. So go ahead and note it.
Well done, UWE.UWE is terrible with things like this. When gorgeous came out they made a huge deal out of how they were so much better than everyone else because OMG WERE GIVING YOU FREE STUFF. When in reality, they didn't give you anything for free (you still had to buy NS2), and content updates are not a new thing. If I hadn't already bought NS2, that kind of a marketing campaign would have driven me away from a purchase because I find it to be very patronizing.
Everyone tries to nickle and dime you for $15 map packs and hats and gear and even sometimes things they call "Expansions" and charge more, but they are really just map packs and hats and gear.
UWE does it all for free because you already bought the game, and they just believe in giving you more for your money.
They reward their fans instead of nickle and diming them...
And They believe in gender equality in games..
and that's okay to point out as a company.. god forbid such things catch on in the industry as a selling point...?
That's the point that i guess you missed?
I have zero clue how you could feel offended by such a thing. We should be throwing our money at any developer who follows suit.
The point is it's patronizing. I'm not saying that they're wrong for doing it, but they're being patronizing when they act like they're special/better because they do this. Literally every game that i've played somewhat seriously over the past 2 years has had free content updates. Tribes Ascend is 100% free, and came out with free updates that included weapons and maps. Smite has done the same. TF2 came out with an entire new game mode that is given to people for free. In fact the only things those games sell that you can't get for free are cosmetics. NS2 did something similar when they charged you extra for Black/Deluxe armor.
UWE does some great stuff, I'm not trying to argue with that. I just think they have terrible PR/marketing. Gorgeous brought some cool new stuff, build 250 is one of the best things I've seen a company do to update their game post release. But people/companies who say "Hey, Look at us! We're different!" just leave a really bad taste in my mouth. I'm not offended by it, but I'm always put-off by people who want to act superior simply because they're doing things the way they should be doing them.
They've always announced them as updates and keeping us informed as to what is going on with the game.
Out of a 6 paragraph article, there are 2 paragraphs going into why UWE is good and everyone who doesn't do things like them are not good enough.
I'm making it seem like it's a much bigger deal than it actually is by making so many posts about it. At most, I'm just annoyed by the fact that they either feel the need to be/don't understand that they are being patronizing.
The female marine model looks great, even if it does look a little too androgynous for my tastes.
Clearly, I need to upgrade my mirror!
Need to overclock and put more JITs in your glass cleaner xD
Let's take EA for example - "Electronic Arts is committed to making a difference in the communities where we live and work by demonstrating responsibility and good citizenship"
"EA strives to reach out to students and teachers alike to inspire and encourage the pursuit of math, computer science, music and the arts"
Shit there's pages and pages of this crap! and That's not even the environment crap they babble on about.
I guess a better way to have phrased it is in a world where free-to-play is becoming more and more common, releasing a free update for your paid game is not something that sets you apart from the crowd.
I know that the way I feel is probably only shared by a minority of the people who play NS2, and especially on the forums. I don't really want to debate about it because there isn't much point in arguing about personal feelings. I'm just trying to put it out there for consideration.
I've always been strongly in favor of putting your product/art/whatever out into the world and letting it speak for itself. If it's actually different/better, people will notice and appreciate it without you trying to sell them on the idea that your product/company is superior. The cream rises to the top whether it's being sold or not.
@RockyMarc, that's kind of the point I'm getting at xD If your company is better than the others, then people will notice it on their own.
That said, at least UWE has a good track record of backing up their words with actions.
the same like in ns1 with the white and black marine.
I agree, i opened this thread and thought, wheres the woman. What a waste of time if it doesn't even look feminine.
Atleast with that you can tell its a woman, unlike the OP. (as in the picture, not the tits out comment)
Now I'm gonna chill at DA and wait for a Pin-up poster Marine babe and mod it into the game!
Look at this scenario:
Alien gets in a room, spots the only marine ( the new one ) and instead of showing awesome skill of biting, cutting, spiking, dodging, heal spraying and such, the alien will engage in a different manner ( It's all true story, I checked the CODE! ) He'd get close to the hot chick and ask her:
"What you doin tonight, honey?" *in alien language*
**BAAM** XP Alien dead, marine win!
See, OP! I demand immediate actions from UWE to stop the future Alien genocide or I'll call the nature protection agency!
Save The Endangered Alien Species!
I'm glad they didn't go with the design choice to put "boob slots" (idk what else to call them) in the armor. I mean seriously, who designs armor like that?
this one looks more like it would kick my ass than the other one. Which is what the female marine should look like since she's there to kick some ass.
And here I thought that the Humans were just reaping what they sowed. Damn. I guess the Humans really are the good guys.
I'm sorry, but bacteria or no, there's jut no way the gorges are the bad guys.
You know maybe they were right about video games turning people into killers. When I first started NS2 I found it very hard to kill those cute Gorges. Now I don't even blink an eye.
My hands are soaked with the blood and bile of Gorges. What have I become?!?
All the studies done saying that games don't make killers you have just obviously proved them all wrong!
The female marine came to a rather different fate as I recall it.