Depends. If that marine takes down the fade with a couple of well-placed shotgun shots, then I'd say it was WELL WORTH medding him. Similarly if he takes down the lerk (and it's still not really late game) then that was probably worth doing.
If you don't med him, he's much less likely to take down the life-forms. Remember that taking out a fade either stops that player being fade again for quite a long time, or costs the alien team an additional 70 res to give him another fade from tres. That's not to be sniffed at.
Lets have an Med Form Request upgrade that the comm can submit to a marine in this kind of situation :
What are the chances you take a costly alien lifeform down in the hereby fight ?
A) Low (0 medpack) Fair (depends on comm humor and marine past services)
C) Good (1 medpack wich shall be refunded by the marine in case of failure, general conditions to be approved by the marine before any medpack drop)
D) Fantastic (2 medpacks, providing the marine sucessfuly pass an immediate aiming test, comm encouragements and an ammo pack on survival)
"My question is what kind of impression does this leave on newer players about the alien team when (to them) it seems like aliens can do nothing against a death march of 3-5 exos after a certain point?"
summed up quite well in the OP for me. bought it at last weekend's sale. i always ask people how exos are supposed to be countered. never get an answer beyond "bite it". i've never seen any non-Onos lifeform last longer than a second or two against an Exo, and i don't think i've ever seen Marines lose once they have Exos. they also seem to make Fades useless (that and the HUD bug).
i remember reading pre 250 that Aliens had a slight advantage over Marines. i guess they went way overboard trying to balance it out. every game strategy feels like either "get enough resources for Exos" for Marines and "defeat them before they can afford Exos" for Aliens.
"My question is what kind of impression does this leave on newer players about the alien team when (to them) it seems like aliens can do nothing against a death march of 3-5 exos after a certain point?"
summed up quite well in the OP for me. bought it at last weekend's sale. i always ask people how exos are supposed to be countered. never get an answer beyond "bite it". i've never seen any non-Onos lifeform last longer than a second or two against an Exo, and i don't think i've ever seen Marines lose once they have Exos. they also seem to make Fades useless (that and the HUD bug).
i remember reading pre 250 that Aliens had a slight advantage over Marines. i guess they went way overboard trying to balance it out. every game strategy feels like either "get enough resources for Exos" for Marines and "defeat them before they can afford Exos" for Aliens.
I 100% agree with you about the impression on newer players, a large Exo march is next to impossible for aliens to take head on.
For smaller groups or if its just an Exo what I find most useful is bouncing off the walls, most exos are use to aiming at the floor and spinning while backing up. If you can get them in the corners I find doing figure-eights around them as a skulk or never stopping moving as a fade tends to work very well. Weaker Exo's are easier to take out, but when they're en mass they are next to impossible to defeat
Agree with OP, 250 build fixed a few problems, but the new problems it generated really makes it worse than before. The fact that I made an account to post on the forum instead of playing says a lot.
The GL/FT and alien increase res cost for tech are just the obvious ones. What about:
1. Jetpack speed, I can barely catch up to it with celerity + leap. If they spot me, usually means I am line up perfectly in front of them.
2. Alien lifeforms are now costing both less and more personal res than before. Before Onos cost 75 res, now Onos cost 60 res +8 for each upgrade, 1 upgrade = 68, 2 upgrade = 76 and 3 upgrade = 84. Anyone actually going to run around without at least celerity. Same applies to Fade, lerk and gorges. Before Dual mini cost 75 and Onos cost 75. Now Dual cost 60 with armor upgrade for free from armslab, Onos have to buy Cara for 8 res gives laughable 100 cara. Same with Fade vs single exo.
Who needs 2nd CC, when I can get jetpack/FT for 40 res.
Never stop moving fade is a great idea, I just haven't been able to figure out how to kill anything not stopping and not running out of breath(energy) then stuck on the ground like an old man with walking cane. Yes, I am a scrubby fade.
"My question is what kind of impression does this leave on newer players about the alien team when (to them) it seems like aliens can do nothing against a death march of 3-5 exos after a certain point?"
summed up quite well in the OP for me. bought it at last weekend's sale. i always ask people how exos are supposed to be countered. never get an answer beyond "bite it". i've never seen any non-Onos lifeform last longer than a second or two against an Exo, and i don't think i've ever seen Marines lose once they have Exos. they also seem to make Fades useless (that and the HUD bug).
i remember reading pre 250 that Aliens had a slight advantage over Marines. i guess they went way overboard trying to balance it out. every game strategy feels like either "get enough resources for Exos" for Marines and "defeat them before they can afford Exos" for Aliens.
Granted, an Exo-Blop is difficult to defeat. But its also a huge amount of p-resources that is attacking you. It should be difficult to overcome that.
To be helpful, there are essentially two ways to counter them:
1) Attacking as a mixed team and not frontal. (Use communication!) Bilebomb from a gorge in cover will force the exos to retreat for welding. An umbra cloud takes some sight and skulks that can manage to get into melee range and are than covered in umbra can do massive damage. When the exos are distracted by the skulks, the lerk can swipe in and spore the crap out of the welding marines.
2) Sun Tzu said, you shall attack where your enemy is not. Exos can't be beaconed. 3 Skulks attacking the CC can get it down in no time. You may lose a hive. But if you are fast and marines got only 1 or 2 bases you can turn the game into a surprising win. BUT you can't do this alone. You need teamplay and at least 2 buddies that attack together while the rest are distracting the exos to buy time.
^might work if they attack with a massive blob. but you're also supposed to be able to defend against it. i mean, Exo vs Skulk rush every game again and again will become very tedious very fast. plus...they don't seem to need a huge blob. in mid-game, just a pair of Exos that aren't suicidal seem invincible as well. i don't know if it's because of stupid Alien commanders or what, but...it sure is annoying as hell.
i don't know what 249 build was like, but it sounds a lot more fun.
Never stop moving fade is a great idea, I just haven't been able to figure out how to kill anything not stopping and not running out of breath(energy) then stuck on the ground like an old man with walking cane. Yes, I am a scrubby fade.
Right click once to blink, then spam space bar every time you hit the floor. Blink gets you upto speed, hopping keeps it. It feels SUUUUPER WRONG that a super killing Ninja Assassin prances around like a little bunny rabbit, but you still have giant scythes for arms (unless they remove that in the next patch). But yeah, jumping doesn't take any energy, if you get stuck, right click and then start hopping. Swipe every now and then.
^might work if they attack with a massive blob. but you're also supposed to be able to defend against it. i mean, Exo vs Skulk rush every game again and again will become very tedious very fast. plus...they don't seem to need a huge blob. in mid-game, just a pair of Exos that aren't suicidal seem invincible as well. i don't know if it's because of stupid Alien commanders or what, but...it sure is annoying as hell.
i don't know what 249 build was like, but it sounds a lot more fun.
actually no, because half the tec was not used > no exos, no flamethrowers, no nadelaunchers, aliens allways only cara and adren or cara and cele < that was it.
With leap possible on one hive (right?) I really don't see jetpacks being an issue in skulk v marine play.
I'm pretty sure leap requires 4 biomass, so 2 hives minimum. I don't see a problem with skulk vs JPs either since the latter is pretty expensive at 15 pres.
Never stop moving fade is a great idea, I just haven't been able to figure out how to kill anything not stopping and not running out of breath(energy) then stuck on the ground like an old man with walking cane. Yes, I am a scrubby fade.
Right click once to blink, then spam space bar every time you hit the floor. Blink gets you upto speed, hopping keeps it. It feels SUUUUPER WRONG that a super killing Ninja Assassin prances around like a little bunny rabbit, but you still have giant scythes for arms (unless they remove that in the next patch). But yeah, jumping doesn't take any energy, if you get stuck, right click and then start hopping. Swipe every now and then.
The bunny hopping movement is really awkward for fade. Fade movement takes more energy for me in general, since I failed that this strafe jumping thing. I have to tap blink every two jump or so to move around. I tried to hop around and swipe as I get close to a marine. Either I am still too high in the air or the cone for swipe got smaller (glancing blow removed), maybe both, I can't seems to hit any marine while hopping around. Now I feels like a big bouncing target, which what I literally am due to my lack of skills.
Edit: also hopping is annoying at some area with low ceiling
How the hell is every build 250 post filled with people complaining about Marines are overpowered when Aliens hold 67% out of ~175 competitive matches and ~56% of public for build 250?
The game stats tracker definitively shows the game has always and still does favor the alien team. Public games less so, generally around 5% more alien than Marine victories. Granted I've only been playing public games, not competitive, but looking at the stats for competitive games more or less confirms my suspicions. For competitive matches, Aliens consistently win around 66% of games! That's insane! We can assume players on both teams know what they're doing for competitive matches, and the Alien team would seem to always have a very significant advantage on every build I've checked of at least 66%.
I've gotten a somewhere over 30 hours on build 250 now before looking around to find that stats tracker which confirms my suspicions: If I want to win a public match I play alien, if I want a challenge I play marine.
late game turts and sweeps are kind of stupid and very aggravating when your team has been dominating all game.
This is all of everything build 250 that I've experienced. Either Aliens crush early, or Marines hold on long enough for a sweep with Exo, Arc, etc and the game culminates in either a sudden Marine comeback or it turns into the Marines failing their Blitzkrieg and slowly losing now that everyone's blown their personal Res.
Frankly, I think it's more fun this way even playing Alien and being subject to the mid-late game Marine Blitzkrieg.
What I find stupid and aggravating is when a Blitzkrieg fails, and it becomes a late game turtle where everyone knows Marines have already lost. Every marine has blown their personal Res but no we can't concede we have to drag out the game until the last base is overrun by 6 Onos+Gorge pairs which can take anywhere from 5 minutes to forever when we should just get on with the next game.
Whips are the only Alien anything that needs a buff right now IMO. They'd prevent the Last-Stand Marine turtle if they didn't suck as much as they do.
What I find stupid and aggravating is when a Blitzkrieg fails, and it becomes a late game turtle where everyone knows Marines have already lost. Every marine has blown their personal Res but no we can't concede we have to drag out the game until the last base is overrun by 6 Onos+Gorge pairs which can take anywhere from 5 minutes to forever when we should just get on with the next game.
I was in one of those Friday night. We marines had effectively lost the game around twenty minutes, and we decided to see how long we could hold out. The team leader figured if we could last another ten minutes we could declare it a "moral victory". I was expecting the turtle to get broken in under five.
The game went on for another two hours. It only ended because the server crashed.
At first it was "let's give them a good fight and see if we can hold out for a few minutes." Then it was "I can't believe they haven't beaten us yet." Then it was "What the hell is wrong with these guys? Why haven't they killed us?" Then it was "Okay, this is getting stupid." Then it was "Okay, it's beyond stupid and now it's just silly." Then it was "By god if they're not going to get their act together and win, there is no WAY IN HELL we're going to just give up." Then it was "We're going to force THEM to concede just to finish the game!"
I've noticed a distinct lack of will for low pres skulks to go gorge when aliens are winning. As soon as the marines are down to their last tech point and 2 or 3 extractors there's no more need for skulks on the table at all and gorges are essential to keep attacking aliens alive and to bile down structures. I don't know if it's because they expect to go onos eventually or because they don't like playing gorge or just because they don't know how powerful gorges are in that situation but there you are.
How the hell is every build 250 post filled with people complaining about Marines are overpowered when Aliens hold 67% out of ~175 competitive matches and ~56% of public for build 250?
Because aliens require teamwork now when they didn't before (same with NS1). You're more likely to see more team work in a competitive match (because they're team vs team), hence why there is an 11% difference between the two. You hardly get teamwork in a pug server unless someone good steps up to the plate and the others follow (because the good player said so).
The reason why players think aliens are weak is because late game alien tech still sucks harder than a dual turbo powered vacuum cleaner, and the ridiculous amount of coordination it takes to break a 1 base marine team that only gets stronger as the game progresses even with 1 cc. Alien sieges are basically an all-in deal, you will lose your lifeform during the siege where marines can just pew pew outside the hive room or through a wall.
How the hell is every build 250 post filled with people complaining about Marines are overpowered when Aliens hold 67% out of ~175 competitive matches and ~56% of public for build 250?
Because aliens require teamwork now when they didn't before (same with NS1). You're more likely to see more team work in a competitive match (because they're team vs team), hence why there is an 11% difference between the two. You hardly get teamwork in a pug server unless someone good steps up to the plate and the others follow (because the good player said so).
The reason why players think aliens are weak is because late game alien tech still sucks harder than a dual turbo powered vacuum cleaner, and the ridiculous amount of coordination it takes to break a 1 base marine team that only gets stronger as the game progresses even with 1 cc. Alien sieges are basically an all-in deal, you will lose your lifeform during the siege where marines can just pew pew outside the hive room or through a wall.
Add in that late game marine tech turn them into an unstoppable death ball. Means winning as aliens is long and drawn out due to marine turtle but losing as aliens is a painful death dictated by how ever fast or slow the marines want to go.
Start talking about getting 50/50 balance when losing as aliens is as fun as losing as marines.
It's important to keep in mind that aliens win the vast majority of matches that last fewer than 5 minutes (due to it being much easier to rush a marine base than an alien hive, especially now that egglock is easily countered). These wins are counted towards the alien total, although most would probably choose to discount them if given the chance. That probably accounts for the slight imbalance in pubs. In my experience it's very near even in pubs, with the team that wins typically winning because it has better players. There's almost always been a competitive alien bias (except for the brick skulk days of 240) so this is hardly anything new that comes with the BT. If we were to balance the game for 50/50 comp play public servers would be heavily marine favored.
In terms of team vs team balanced i've noticed the longer a game runs the more likely marines will win, once exos come out in pub games theres very little you can do. I've never seen an exo outside of a pub though.
In terms of team vs team balanced i've noticed the longer a game runs the more likely marines will win, once exos come out in pub games theres very little you can do. I've never seen an exo outside of a pub though.
I've played ~60 hours since b250 hit, all in pubs, and what I've noticed is that the better team usually wins. USUALLY. That's pretty good. Of course, I've lost to super slow Exo pushes before that were kind of ridiculous. I've also won a fair share of matches by convincing my team to rush their base if they decide that they should have more than a few exos. I think it's in a pretty good place right now (although an ONOS buff would be nice).
I also think another reason for the really long turtles is that new players don't know when/how to concede, or when it's appropriate. I don't remember that happening too much in the pre-250 days, so I think it's a community maturity thing.
Comments
Lets have an Med Form Request upgrade that the comm can submit to a marine in this kind of situation :
What are the chances you take a costly alien lifeform down in the hereby fight ?
A) Low (0 medpack)
C) Good (1 medpack wich shall be refunded by the marine in case of failure, general conditions to be approved by the marine before any medpack drop)
D) Fantastic (2 medpacks, providing the marine sucessfuly pass an immediate aiming test, comm encouragements and an ammo pack on survival)
summed up quite well in the OP for me. bought it at last weekend's sale. i always ask people how exos are supposed to be countered. never get an answer beyond "bite it". i've never seen any non-Onos lifeform last longer than a second or two against an Exo, and i don't think i've ever seen Marines lose once they have Exos. they also seem to make Fades useless (that and the HUD bug).
i remember reading pre 250 that Aliens had a slight advantage over Marines. i guess they went way overboard trying to balance it out. every game strategy feels like either "get enough resources for Exos" for Marines and "defeat them before they can afford Exos" for Aliens.
I 100% agree with you about the impression on newer players, a large Exo march is next to impossible for aliens to take head on.
For smaller groups or if its just an Exo what I find most useful is bouncing off the walls, most exos are use to aiming at the floor and spinning while backing up. If you can get them in the corners I find doing figure-eights around them as a skulk or never stopping moving as a fade tends to work very well. Weaker Exo's are easier to take out, but when they're en mass they are next to impossible to defeat
The GL/FT and alien increase res cost for tech are just the obvious ones. What about:
1. Jetpack speed, I can barely catch up to it with celerity + leap. If they spot me, usually means I am line up perfectly in front of them.
2. Alien lifeforms are now costing both less and more personal res than before. Before Onos cost 75 res, now Onos cost 60 res +8 for each upgrade, 1 upgrade = 68, 2 upgrade = 76 and 3 upgrade = 84. Anyone actually going to run around without at least celerity. Same applies to Fade, lerk and gorges. Before Dual mini cost 75 and Onos cost 75. Now Dual cost 60 with armor upgrade for free from armslab, Onos have to buy Cara for 8 res gives laughable 100 cara. Same with Fade vs single exo.
Who needs 2nd CC, when I can get jetpack/FT for 40 res.
Never stop moving fade is a great idea, I just haven't been able to figure out how to kill anything not stopping and not running out of breath(energy) then stuck on the ground like an old man with walking cane. Yes, I am a scrubby fade.
Granted, an Exo-Blop is difficult to defeat. But its also a huge amount of p-resources that is attacking you. It should be difficult to overcome that.
To be helpful, there are essentially two ways to counter them:
1) Attacking as a mixed team and not frontal. (Use communication!) Bilebomb from a gorge in cover will force the exos to retreat for welding. An umbra cloud takes some sight and skulks that can manage to get into melee range and are than covered in umbra can do massive damage. When the exos are distracted by the skulks, the lerk can swipe in and spore the crap out of the welding marines.
2) Sun Tzu said, you shall attack where your enemy is not. Exos can't be beaconed. 3 Skulks attacking the CC can get it down in no time. You may lose a hive. But if you are fast and marines got only 1 or 2 bases you can turn the game into a surprising win. BUT you can't do this alone. You need teamplay and at least 2 buddies that attack together while the rest are distracting the exos to buy time.
i don't know what 249 build was like, but it sounds a lot more fun.
Right click once to blink, then spam space bar every time you hit the floor. Blink gets you upto speed, hopping keeps it. It feels SUUUUPER WRONG that a super killing Ninja Assassin prances around like a little bunny rabbit, but you still have giant scythes for arms (unless they remove that in the next patch). But yeah, jumping doesn't take any energy, if you get stuck, right click and then start hopping. Swipe every now and then.
1. l2p issue.
Also, with the increased cost of jetpacks, I see no reason why skulks shouldn't struggle with them.
actually no, because half the tec was not used > no exos, no flamethrowers, no nadelaunchers, aliens allways only cara and adren or cara and cele < that was it.
Because skulks can cling to ceilings indefinitely?
I should fix it:
The bunny hopping movement is really awkward for fade. Fade movement takes more energy for me in general, since I failed that this strafe jumping thing. I have to tap blink every two jump or so to move around. I tried to hop around and swipe as I get close to a marine. Either I am still too high in the air or the cone for swipe got smaller (glancing blow removed), maybe both, I can't seems to hit any marine while hopping around. Now I feels like a big bouncing target, which what I literally am due to my lack of skills.
Edit: also hopping is annoying at some area with low ceiling
With the old jetpack, it was a struggle. With build 250 jetpacks, is like winning the lottery.
The game stats tracker definitively shows the game has always and still does favor the alien team. Public games less so, generally around 5% more alien than Marine victories. Granted I've only been playing public games, not competitive, but looking at the stats for competitive games more or less confirms my suspicions. For competitive matches, Aliens consistently win around 66% of games! That's insane! We can assume players on both teams know what they're doing for competitive matches, and the Alien team would seem to always have a very significant advantage on every build I've checked of at least 66%.
I've gotten a somewhere over 30 hours on build 250 now before looking around to find that stats tracker which confirms my suspicions: If I want to win a public match I play alien, if I want a challenge I play marine.
This is all of everything build 250 that I've experienced. Either Aliens crush early, or Marines hold on long enough for a sweep with Exo, Arc, etc and the game culminates in either a sudden Marine comeback or it turns into the Marines failing their Blitzkrieg and slowly losing now that everyone's blown their personal Res.
Frankly, I think it's more fun this way even playing Alien and being subject to the mid-late game Marine Blitzkrieg.
What I find stupid and aggravating is when a Blitzkrieg fails, and it becomes a late game turtle where everyone knows Marines have already lost. Every marine has blown their personal Res but no we can't concede we have to drag out the game until the last base is overrun by 6 Onos+Gorge pairs which can take anywhere from 5 minutes to forever when we should just get on with the next game.
Whips are the only Alien anything that needs a buff right now IMO. They'd prevent the Last-Stand Marine turtle if they didn't suck as much as they do.
The game went on for another two hours. It only ended because the server crashed.
At first it was "let's give them a good fight and see if we can hold out for a few minutes." Then it was "I can't believe they haven't beaten us yet." Then it was "What the hell is wrong with these guys? Why haven't they killed us?" Then it was "Okay, this is getting stupid." Then it was "Okay, it's beyond stupid and now it's just silly." Then it was "By god if they're not going to get their act together and win, there is no WAY IN HELL we're going to just give up." Then it was "We're going to force THEM to concede just to finish the game!"
It was truly surreal.
Because aliens require teamwork now when they didn't before (same with NS1). You're more likely to see more team work in a competitive match (because they're team vs team), hence why there is an 11% difference between the two. You hardly get teamwork in a pug server unless someone good steps up to the plate and the others follow (because the good player said so).
The reason why players think aliens are weak is because late game alien tech still sucks harder than a dual turbo powered vacuum cleaner, and the ridiculous amount of coordination it takes to break a 1 base marine team that only gets stronger as the game progresses even with 1 cc. Alien sieges are basically an all-in deal, you will lose your lifeform during the siege where marines can just pew pew outside the hive room or through a wall.
Add in that late game marine tech turn them into an unstoppable death ball. Means winning as aliens is long and drawn out due to marine turtle but losing as aliens is a painful death dictated by how ever fast or slow the marines want to go.
Start talking about getting 50/50 balance when losing as aliens is as fun as losing as marines.
Personally i've experienced more exciting,"intense" PUB games in b250.
http://www.twitch.tv/clash666/b/421826262
Starts about 3 minutes in.
This is how you turtle and win if aliens start losing organisation.
I also think another reason for the really long turtles is that new players don't know when/how to concede, or when it's appropriate. I don't remember that happening too much in the pre-250 days, so I think it's a community maturity thing.