Losing a few games in a row to imbalanced teams is probably enough to make any rookie quit. Or really make anyone at least put the game down for a bit. Don't get me wrong, when I play prefer to play with my friends if possible. My friends and I aren't the best at the game, but when a sale or free weekend occurs we clean up. We play a lot more casually (one guy's mission is to always be vent-gorge), but to the stronger players we probably appear as rookies.
What would be nice is if there was some incentive to play against stronger opponents. Perhaps an experience rating/level system. It could be displayed on the scoreboard or not, and you could include a tip to "look to more experienced players for help". The algorithm doesn't even have to be that complicated; link it to hours played. Then win or lose, if you're playing against more experienced players, you get points or skins or hats (if you want to compete in that market). You could make a ladder system if that sounds appealing.
I think hiding/removing deaths from the scoreboard is a good idea. It serves little in-game purpose. Perhaps if needed include an option for "advanced scoreboard" which can return the deaths column.
How can you keep new players if you can't even keep old?
You must first keep new players...otherwise you wont have old players (as all old players once started out as new players).
Old players are a net result of being able to attract and keep new players.
UWE needs to worry about making both sides fun to play rather than win loss ratio's....I have said it a 1000 times and it never becomes any less true.
The one fun side of alien gameplay that most new players found helped was actually effective camo (aka cloaking).
It was a balls and all first hive option and meant you had to secure 2 more tech points...but did grant the new players the occasional kill.
By mid game camo was useless as it was countered by obs, pings and ofcourse attacking.
Marine gameplay is inherently more rewarding compared to kharaa gameplay and kills are more readily accesible to new players (mines, FT, GL's etc) all offer a green player a chance of getting kills.
And how is the new camo worse? Oh right, you can't move and be fully stealthed. Honestly, the old camo was boring as hell to me because you literally had to just walk up to a marine early game and you get a free kill. How is that rewarding in even the slightest? There's no honest answer other then: it wasn't. And this version is even better because guess what, it's not negated almost completely mid-game as you get the silence bonus along with it. But then, it seems there's a few people on these boards that insist we must give free or extremely easy kills to new players to keep them interested. I'm trying to think back to what games kept me in them for the long term because of garbage like that. I'm coming up with absolutely none.
The old camo was rewarding as it meant new players could get some kills early in the game, before lots of obs are up and the comm can afford to scan areas.
Both old and new camo are made redundant by mid game...none of the changes have changed that aspect.
Sure the old camo meant as a marine you would at times suddenly start taking damage from a cloaked skulk...but its not like that skulk was granted a kill..he still had to land 3 bites.
The shade first tactic itself whilst ensuring new players could get some early kills made winning the actual game all teh harder.
I am sorry that you found dieing early game from a cloaked skulk such an afront to your skills.
But new players found being able to close within striking distance a godsend.
Finding a way to help newer players is seemingly something that most here take personal offense too.
I am sorry but I dont know anyone who will invest hours watching videos of a game just so when they hop in and play a game they dont get their arse handed to them.
Of the dozen ppl I know who all bought this game....I am the only one that plays it...everyone else found it too frustrating, unintuitive, skill floor too high on aliens, too low on marines and basically and poorly balanced considering the differences of the two sides.
No. I'm all for helping new players to get into the game. But the old camo was op. The 100ms latency you have means you don't need to land 3 bites. It means the first 2 bites are free. You only need to connect the last bite when the marine finally starts to react.
It also was - as you wrote yourself - a very risky strategy. Camo got useless in midgame. So while the newbs will get some kills, they finally will lose, because they don't get as much out of camo as you would have to. If you couldn't at least secure 3 TPs in early game, you lost with camo first.
I would really like a mechanic in NS2 that has a very low skill ceiling a weapon that helps new players, but can't be abused by good players. But the old camos skill ceiling was not low. If you know how to use it, you could conceal marines in their base from the beginning.
But it was a very fun and refreshing build. Given, that one can handle change.
True but it doesn't solve the main issues NS2 has and tbh they probably never will be solved. Putting balance aside, you really need a decent sized population in order to have somewhat balanced games and 1kish or below will not cut it. Especially if the player population will only be temporarily be boosted by sales which by itself is not bad but the gameplay really tanks when you have greens not knowing what to do and most of all ignoring your advice. Plus the few new players that show interest are stomped by the experienced ones given the small community. I mean it only takes 1-2 good players to decide the game and there are bound to be a few spread in every server. Idk if good tutorials is even enough with the frustration this game brings to most people. I mean when you get something new you usually toss the manual aside and jump right in. It has to be be interactive people love that stuff. Though ISE videos are usually well made with the graphics effects so it should be good.
Plus the stacking is insufferable with people going on the same teams waiting in RR to avoid the greens and then stroking their ego when they win against a team that had no idea what they were doing. I mean how is that even enjoyable? Game ends fast and you do not get to play a decent match and pools closed because everyone leaves. Only time I see good games are when admins get directly involved and split the teams fairly. But leave these players to their own devices and they will stack all day.
Btw how does phantom work at max level? I would assume at level 3 you are fully invisible when not moving and standing still but not so much when you are moving.
No. I'm all for helping new players to get into the game. But the old camo was op. The 100ms latency you have means you don't need to land 3 bites. It means the first 2 bites are free. You only need to connect the last bite when the marine finally starts to react.
It also was - as you wrote yourself - a very risky strategy. Camo got useless in midgame. So while the newbs will get some kills, they finally will lose, because they don't get as much out of camo as you would have to. If you couldn't at least secure 3 TPs in early game, you lost with camo first.
I would really like a mechanic in NS2 that has a very low skill ceiling a weapon that helps new players, but can't be abused by good players. But the old camos skill ceiling was not low. If you know how to use it, you could conceal marines in their base from the beginning.
Camo was OP because of the obs system which rely on resources and not on energy. With a proper energy system it can/could be balanced.
Or proximity to obs (scan works as intended) lessens the effect when moving. IMHO cloak should ALWAYS work when stationary but not when moving. Id be happy for permanent stationary cloak - obs or not) and no cloak when moving.
On the note of K:D, why do we even record/show death? (I do like to see my ratio, but that is a carry over from older games and FPS's in general)
Score has a place, kills have a place, and deaths imo do not. The most discouraging thing for a new player i think is seeing the low kill count and high death count, though that score isnt a guarantee of a players skill. We do not have Res For Kill, dying only negatively effects the team when it comes to spawn queue, and it isnt detailed enough. Who says you didnt join late and get go 0-10 because there are 5 onos on the field? or early game you are taking the skulks you find out but that pesky lerk seems to be hunting you causing a 1:1 ratio. Does this mean you suck?
My vote is to remove everyone's deaths but your own from the score board or toggle it in the menu. It takes out the embarrased factor and allows for more aggressive play. So what if i went 0-12 if my score is 400 from munching on rts, key structures, and healing fellow lifeforms. Wasnt i just as crucial as the 61:2 fade area denial machine?
Talking with new players their K:D ratio is the biggest source of anger (and rage quitting) since they are judging that on how well they are doing in the game. No one looks at score unfortunately. Maybe even instead of death show accuracy?
I don't think there's any value in sugar-coating the truth. Making deaths of others hidden on the scorecard means there's no way for you to know how good you are doing compared to the rest of the team, and therefore no way for you to know if there is scope for improvement. Having 30-15 may seem good, until you see some other guy with 10-0. This is what helped me to realize how much I could improve in NS2, and in other games like CS1.6, BF2, CSGO etc. Getting a high/1:1 KD and doing effective/strategic damage to the opposing team aren't mutually exclusive.
For new players, if they have a low KD they are more likely than not to also have a low score, and vice versa. Perhaps removing the KD altogether and focusing on score only would be best for the pro games, since they're the ones who spend most time ego-stroking and rookie farming on public servers while their team loses.
The presence of a visible death count is not why people are abandoning this game in their droves.
I like the high skill level of this game....this is the best game over. It is also very difficult and demanding. That is what makes the game so fun! Epic Battles! Great Strategy. Blood and Sweat.
Did Quake ever have a skill ceiling camp? no. And it was the most popular game ever.
Did Quake have match making or any stupid stuff like that? No. Just GameSpy server list, sort by ping, sort by max players. sort by map.
I like the high skill level of this game....this is the best game over. It is also very difficult and demanding. That is what makes the game so fun! Epic Battles! Great Strategy. Blood and Sweat.
Did Quake ever have a skill ceiling camp? no. And it was the most popular game ever.
Did Quake have match making or any stupid stuff like that? No. Just GameSpy server list, sort by ping, sort by max players. sort by map.
That was another time most players are brainwashed to play fps with autoheal and matchmaking.
I like the high skill level of this game....this is the best game over. It is also very difficult and demanding. That is what makes the game so fun! Epic Battles! Great Strategy. Blood and Sweat.
Did Quake ever have a skill ceiling camp? no. And it was the most popular game ever.
Did Quake have match making or any stupid stuff like that? No. Just GameSpy server list, sort by ping, sort by max players. sort by map.
Ah yeah you mean the lag that gets you killed right bevor you can reach the corner? The GL-nades flying in your hive room and destroying everything you builded as a com, and cant do shit about it? The fact that infestation is just a "hidden" arrow for the marines pointing to you hiveroom and every other structure? You mean the epic battles where the teams hide behind the corners and you mostly know who is going to win if you just look on the map? And by great strategy you mean the "techtree" that is no techtree because you have little to no choice? Yeah this is the best game ever...
The reason I got the game was because I tried it on a free weekend and it felt great to play the Aliens, it was the dream of every Zerg player but now?
I like the high skill level of this game....this is the best game over. It is also very difficult and demanding. That is what makes the game so fun! Epic Battles! Great Strategy. Blood and Sweat.
Did Quake ever have a skill ceiling camp? no. And it was the most popular game ever.
Did Quake have match making or any stupid stuff like that? No. Just GameSpy server list, sort by ping, sort by max players. sort by map.
You realize Quake is dead right?
Everyone is playing lolCA (the Quake equivalent of NS combat) because there isn't enough matchmaking to make TDM/CTF/Duel fun
when there are 5000 alternatives, people will go play one of them instead of getting roflstomped
I like the high skill level of this game....this is the best game over. It is also very difficult and demanding. That is what makes the game so fun! Epic Battles! Great Strategy. Blood and Sweat.
Did Quake ever have a skill ceiling camp? no. And it was the most popular game ever.
Did Quake have match making or any stupid stuff like that? No. Just GameSpy server list, sort by ping, sort by max players. sort by map.
I do miss an offhand grapple. Q2CTF were the days.
How can you keep new players if you can't even keep old?
You must first keep new players...otherwise you wont have old players (as all old players once started out as new players).
Old players are a net result of being able to attract and keep new players.
UWE needs to worry about making both sides fun to play rather than win loss ratio's....I have said it a 1000 times and it never becomes any less true.
The one fun side of alien gameplay that most new players found helped was actually effective camo (aka cloaking).
It was a balls and all first hive option and meant you had to secure 2 more tech points...but did grant the new players the occasional kill.
By mid game camo was useless as it was countered by obs, pings and ofcourse attacking.
Marine gameplay is inherently more rewarding compared to kharaa gameplay and kills are more readily accesible to new players (mines, FT, GL's etc) all offer a green player a chance of getting kills.
And how is the new camo worse? Oh right, you can't move and be fully stealthed. Honestly, the old camo was boring as hell to me because you literally had to just walk up to a marine early game and you get a free kill. How is that rewarding in even the slightest? There's no honest answer other then: it wasn't. And this version is even better because guess what, it's not negated almost completely mid-game as you get the silence bonus along with it. But then, it seems there's a few people on these boards that insist we must give free or extremely easy kills to new players to keep them interested. I'm trying to think back to what games kept me in them for the long term because of garbage like that. I'm coming up with absolutely none.
The old camo was rewarding as it meant new players could get some kills early in the game, before lots of obs are up and the comm can afford to scan areas.
Both old and new camo are made redundant by mid game...none of the changes have changed that aspect.
Sure the old camo meant as a marine you would at times suddenly start taking damage from a cloaked skulk...but its not like that skulk was granted a kill..he still had to land 3 bites.
The shade first tactic itself whilst ensuring new players could get some early kills made winning the actual game all teh harder.
I am sorry that you found dieing early game from a cloaked skulk such an afront to your skills.
But new players found being able to close within striking distance a godsend.
Finding a way to help newer players is seemingly something that most here take personal offense too.
I am sorry but I dont know anyone who will invest hours watching videos of a game just so when they hop in and play a game they dont get their arse handed to them.
Of the dozen ppl I know who all bought this game....I am the only one that plays it...everyone else found it too frustrating, unintuitive, skill floor too high on aliens, too low on marines and basically and poorly balanced considering the differences of the two sides.
Apparently our definitions of "rewarding" are pretty far off. I've always thought of something rewarding as being something you did a little something to accomplish. Honestly, there was not much to walking up to a marine and landing at least 2 bites before he even realizes what's going on. Landing a third is not that hard to do. And I'm actually saying this from an alien perspective, has nothing at all to do with being "an affront to my skills" or any garbage like that. And there's nothing whatsoever personal to any of this, I'm actually surprised you take it that way. I'm simply saying there's ways to help players other then just giving them free kills. I'll say it again, there's not a single game I've played for any decent amount of time that ever kept me interested because of that. In fact, I'm generally turned off to it, just as I've been turned off to games like TF2 and COD for exactly those reasons. I always enjoy games that are, you know, actually rewarding and not just handing me giveaways due to some silly random number generator.
On the note of K:D, why do we even record/show death? (I do like to see my ratio, but that is a carry over from older games and FPS's in general)
Score has a place, kills have a place, and deaths imo do not. The most discouraging thing for a new player i think is seeing the low kill count and high death count, though that score isnt a guarantee of a players skill. We do not have Res For Kill, dying only negatively effects the team when it comes to spawn queue, and it isnt detailed enough. Who says you didnt join late and get go 0-10 because there are 5 onos on the field? or early game you are taking the skulks you find out but that pesky lerk seems to be hunting you causing a 1:1 ratio. Does this mean you suck?
My vote is to remove everyone's deaths but your own from the score board or toggle it in the menu. It takes out the embarrased factor and allows for more aggressive play. So what if i went 0-12 if my score is 400 from munching on rts, key structures, and healing fellow lifeforms. Wasnt i just as crucial as the 61:2 fade area denial machine?
Talking with new players their K:D ratio is the biggest source of anger (and rage quitting) since they are judging that on how well they are doing in the game. No one looks at score unfortunately. Maybe even instead of death show accuracy?
I don't think there's any value in sugar-coating the truth. Making deaths of others hidden on the scorecard means there's no way for you to know how good you are doing compared to the rest of the team, and therefore no way for you to know if there is scope for improvement. Having 30-15 may seem good, until you see some other guy with 10-0. This is what helped me to realize how much I could improve in NS2, and in other games like CS1.6, BF2, CSGO etc. Getting a high/1:1 KD and doing effective/strategic damage to the opposing team aren't mutually exclusive.
For new players, if they have a low KD they are more likely than not to also have a low score, and vice versa. Perhaps removing the KD altogether and focusing on score only would be best for the pro games, since they're the ones who spend most time ego-stroking and rookie farming on public servers while their team loses.
The presence of a visible death count is not why people are abandoning this game in their droves.
This is the exact attitude we need to change. If i am a skulk that goes 0-5 but my score is over 250 from just biting down extractors, does this mean i suck? Did i not provide a VITAL function to the team. Another instance is i join marines, i stick with a pack of 3 others. The Lerk sees my black armor and singles me out every engagement. I go 0-5 while my team eventually kills the lerk in a hive assault and wins. I must also suck in this scenario also.
Why are K:D ratios not talked about in competitive games? Because they don't matter. Team kills speaks for itself. Talk to competitive players and ask where they aim when faced with a 2-2 situation. Even if i skulk is on themselves they generally aim at their squad mates skulk because it is an easier shot. No matter how good a shot this person is they will not kill the skulk chomping on them since they arent even aiming at it. Their life depends on their mate doing the same. If you die is it because you suck? No.
The presence of a visible death count is what discourages people from moving forward and pressing. They are too afraid to die and look bad. Not to mention rage quits. It is one things to be getting stomped but you dont see the players going 20-5 rage quitting a losing team. It is the ones going 0-15 but have a score of 200. They were vital, but because gamer FPS culture says a bad k:d ratio makes you bad.
A death count servers NO purpose other than E-peen or harassment. It will ease new players into the strategy mind frame and not the k:d CoD, CS, Battlefield rambo.
the first step toward fixing the game should be banning anyone with more than 500 forum posts so the community doesnt come off to new players as being filled exclusively with furies and people with serious mental problems
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2013
I just started playing the game again after a two month break and some differences from before I stopped playing became apparent immediately. I don't know what's killing ns2, but I sure do love this new phenomena:
As if public wasn't bad enough before, with all the hackusations flying around, now you get votekicked the second your k/d goes above 4 as marine. I played maybe three hours today, got votes to kick me started more than ten times (if it failed, they would just start a new one) and got votekicked twice because of it. This isn't some rookie server either, I never join those, this was all on different KKG servers, which used to be alright to play on because the admins dealt fairly with good players, but now apparently it's impossible to play on them because you just get votekicked.
We never had this shit in ns1; ns2 players are such flaming pussies. New generation of gamers grumble grumble.
I just started playing the game again after a two month break and some differences from before I stopped playing became apparent immediately. I don't know what's killing ns2, but I sure do love this new phenomena:
As if public wasn't bad enough before, with all the hackusations flying around, now you get votekicked the second your k/d goes above 4 as marine. I played maybe three hours today, got votes to kick me started more than ten times (if it failed, they would just start a new one) and got votekicked twice because of it. This isn't some rookie server either, I never join those, this was all on different KKG servers, which used to be alright to play on because the admins dealt fairly with good players, but now apparently it's impossible to play on them because you just get votekicked.
We never had this shit in ns1; ns2 players are such flaming pussies. New generation of gamers grumble grumble.
Yes we had. More than you think. But NS1 was HL1 with tons of hax (from soft to hard) and everybody did use it. the most common was the "3 jump script". I remember at each version of NS (especially the one that blocked script) some players (even claners) said "no i'm bored blah blah". Then 2 weeks later they came back same as it ever was. 2 days before that; a rumors said "hey it's working again". how convenient?
So i can't blame 'em. On my side of the world we now know for sure that aimbots are a reality in NS2. We spotted more than one (4 specs, same time) that just can't deny it. If only "record" was not broken. The thing is, it starts to be annoying with Railgun exos. They never miss, whatever the speed, close, far... never.
*As "mousewheel jump config trick" spread : It show strange animation and it produce mini-lag all over the place and make a marine somehow teleports. I mean we don't see marines on map but bouncing beans. This technical issue should be addressed properly and fast.
a) These guys use config tricks like this because the keybinding config sucks big time.
b) They ultimately have an advantage doing it (they're stupid gamers you know). Win by lag exploit is just not skill. I do not lag, got a top PC (usually first connected), server is 4Ghz etc.. nothing comes in the way.
*As HUD hack seems to be probable : A guy asked forever for armor upgrade. I said that day after 10 or 20 demands (as commander) "shit son!; look at your screen there's a HUD!! You have level 2:2". A big silence followed. I do not believe it's because everybody felt a 'stress' in my voice ton, but because he couldn't say anything that doesn't look suspicious. These guys never seems to be distracted by the rifle model (as i use to move in that corner in their screen when i'm alien).
*As mini-big-map is a possible hax : I'm the kind of alien you never see coming unless you check at the speed of light every corner of a room. Still, even cloaked (before moving) some find a way to just turn 180° (or 90° or any) at the moment you move.
a) could be aimbot again
b) maybe big HUDminimap (screen wide) that shows a big red dot on the screen. That would help.
*As lag is never a precise science. Lag is just tricky all the time. You never can adapt to it because everybody lags differently. It depends on servers (hardware and software), networks, your PC, in fact many parameters. Sometime shooting at the model works, sometime it's in front or behind it. Plus the score board is just wrong about ping latency. On a VPN or not it displays the same (~50) latency... But still some guys manage to always shoot whenever it is relevant while they have "shity regs".
I'm not saying that everything i described is working or is the common stuff. But you have to admit that some things are really suspicious. I have a KD ratio of 2:1 as "only skulk" in combat. With other life forms it would be +4:1. I'm not complaining, but i see that marine 6th sense of the game isn't getting better (position in room, corner checking, they still all look in the same direction...) but close combat is (bouncing bean, etc). I still kill and mock these claners on pub but for how long? as they are the most tempted of all.
So alien have more difficulties not only because of cheater but also because of things that just should be removed.
Example: An alien engage a marine from the ceiling. The marine didn't see it coming. 1 hit, 2 hits landed. Then the marine "mouse-wheel" jump -> 1/4 sec lag, teleportation and he starts to shoot. Skulk dies.
If the alien didn't have the stupid teeth all over the screen he wouldn't be eager to say "hax". I mean if you see a lag bug, you just say "lag bug" and then compensate. On NS2 you can't say aliens are helped on many matters like that.
Suggestion for devs:
*Remove the fùç|{ing teeth (as some claners already do, ho no i said some blasphemous). Only fade and Onos are ok IMO.
*keybinding and proper filtering. No need to send 100 updates to the server for 1 jump.
*Proper spectating mode with tons of options. If it is not for spotting hax at least for learning. Many suggestions have been submitted already.
*Record debugged, and proper tool to convert as video. Many suggestions also.
*Make sure client parameters are set properly (pushed on client).
Then we'll have a decent base for making the game and community better. Until then things gonna get worse.
There isn't any fundamental flaw, there are a few issues that keep the game from being a 10/10, but the real issue is just that player counts just drop for pretty much any game over a long enough time period
The game is very interesting.I think the game is not a issue the player only ding wrong.The player takes long time to play the game.
I just started playing the game again after a two month break and some differences from before I stopped playing became apparent immediately. I don't know what's killing ns2, but I sure do love this new phenomena:
As if public wasn't bad enough before, with all the hackusations flying around, now you get votekicked the second your k/d goes above 4 as marine. I played maybe three hours today, got votes to kick me started more than ten times (if it failed, they would just start a new one) and got votekicked twice because of it. This isn't some rookie server either, I never join those, this was all on different KKG servers, which used to be alright to play on because the admins dealt fairly with good players, but now apparently it's impossible to play on them because you just get votekicked.
We never had this shit in ns1; ns2 players are such flaming pussies. New generation of gamers grumble grumble.
This can be really annoying. I was commanding the other day and a person was glitched into a wall and was just stuck there. After repeatedly telling him to kill him self to respawn as he was being no use to the team, some one suggested we kick him so he can rejoin. So we agreed and I started the vote. it was 18-1 yes (the 1 I am assuming was him). Anyway he re-joined with the first thing happening is him starting a vote to kick me. No one voted yes as I had been on the server commanding for a couple of hours by now and the players where enjoying me and their commander so I thought nothing of it. The next thing I know he starts a new vote a minuet later after the first one failed, then again after that one failed, then a 4th time until someone on the alien team got sick of all these votes popping up so he voted to kick him. which we all voted yes for because quiet frankly he was acting childish and being a general pain in the backside. about 10 minuets later he re-joined and started votes on both me and the other person who voted kick until he gave in and just left. This has left me with a distasteful opinion about the vote kick feature but most of the time it can be useful when there isn't an admin on there.
On the note of K:D, why do we even record/show death? (I do like to see my ratio, but that is a carry over from older games and FPS's in general)
Score has a place, kills have a place, and deaths imo do not. The most discouraging thing for a new player i think is seeing the low kill count and high death count, though that score isnt a guarantee of a players skill. We do not have Res For Kill, dying only negatively effects the team when it comes to spawn queue, and it isnt detailed enough. Who says you didnt join late and get go 0-10 because there are 5 onos on the field? or early game you are taking the skulks you find out but that pesky lerk seems to be hunting you causing a 1:1 ratio. Does this mean you suck?
My vote is to remove everyone's deaths but your own from the score board or toggle it in the menu. It takes out the embarrased factor and allows for more aggressive play. So what if i went 0-12 if my score is 400 from munching on rts, key structures, and healing fellow lifeforms. Wasnt i just as crucial as the 61:2 fade area denial machine?
Talking with new players their K:D ratio is the biggest source of anger (and rage quitting) since they are judging that on how well they are doing in the game. No one looks at score unfortunately. Maybe even instead of death show accuracy?
I don't think there's any value in sugar-coating the truth. Making deaths of others hidden on the scorecard means there's no way for you to know how good you are doing compared to the rest of the team, and therefore no way for you to know if there is scope for improvement. Having 30-15 may seem good, until you see some other guy with 10-0. This is what helped me to realize how much I could improve in NS2, and in other games like CS1.6, BF2, CSGO etc. Getting a high/1:1 KD and doing effective/strategic damage to the opposing team aren't mutually exclusive.
For new players, if they have a low KD they are more likely than not to also have a low score, and vice versa. Perhaps removing the KD altogether and focusing on score only would be best for the pro games, since they're the ones who spend most time ego-stroking and rookie farming on public servers while their team loses.
The presence of a visible death count is not why people are abandoning this game in their droves.
This is the exact attitude we need to change. If i am a skulk that goes 0-5 but my score is over 250 from just biting down extractors, does this mean i suck? Did i not provide a VITAL function to the team. Another instance is i join marines, i stick with a pack of 3 others. The Lerk sees my black armor and singles me out every engagement. I go 0-5 while my team eventually kills the lerk in a hive assault and wins. I must also suck in this scenario also.
Why are K:D ratios not talked about in competitive games? Because they don't matter. Team kills speaks for itself. Talk to competitive players and ask where they aim when faced with a 2-2 situation. Even if i skulk is on themselves they generally aim at their squad mates skulk because it is an easier shot. No matter how good a shot this person is they will not kill the skulk chomping on them since they arent even aiming at it. Their life depends on their mate doing the same. If you die is it because you suck? No.
The presence of a visible death count is what discourages people from moving forward and pressing. They are too afraid to die and look bad. Not to mention rage quits. It is one things to be getting stomped but you dont see the players going 20-5 rage quitting a losing team. It is the ones going 0-15 but have a score of 200. They were vital, but because gamer FPS culture says a bad k:d ratio makes you bad.
A death count servers NO purpose other than E-peen or harassment. It will ease new players into the strategy mind frame and not the k:d CoD, CS, Battlefield rambo.
"Changing attitudes"?! 1984 much? You realize this is just a computer game, right? Yes, let's replace a measure of skill with a participation award! Everybody wins! It is natural that new players would have low kds, BECAUSE THEY ARE NEW TO THE GAME. If new players quit because they are getting low kds, they shouldn't bother playing any game which has any FPS element. If they are quitting rather than trying to improve their gameplay, good riddance. I don't think NS2 needs them.
I've already said this: Negative KDs are not why this game is dying.
* "Why do you want to kick x person?"
- "He's mic is on nonstop"
* "Well then just mute him".
They kick for any reason these days.
Now bad behavior or similar like that I can imagine, but it gets used so much.
I will try again to convince dragon (Vextas admin/clanlead) to make our server non rookie. IF we are nonrookie I know id like to have more experienced folk around.
And I know Dragon atleast doesnt kick blindly due to asumed hack.
But so few admins/players truly check.
Yes there was a votekick option in NS1 and as far as the KKG servers go most times it doesn't work but more often it gets used when you go afk, sit in base or hive and just wait for res, or you ping goes above 900.
It's crazy to me, a lot of people here played 500+ hours, and they wonder why player counts are going down. How can you expect more out of a game? What can be done to retain players who have already logged that much time? NS2 isn't permanent and it's not the game you are going to play for the rest of your life. Just enjoy it now while there is a decent player base because nothing lasts forever.
I was playing in somekind of community server otherday. There was this one guy. He communicated a lot with team but basicly he was on rambo mission. I followed him almost whole game. We did pretty good on kills and map control, dunno what other half of team got done. But end of match, i was second on scoretable, but this oneguy had three times more points and kills. This continued about 3 matches. Who wants to play against those if others are casual? And we didnt win all games, just wondered those killstreaks what he performed.
Game definiatly needs vets servers. I would join to get awesome i'm so shitty feelings. And maybe learn something. Now it's more like 1-2 godlike players stomping casuals.
It's crazy to me, a lot of people here played 500+ hours, and they wonder why player counts are going down. How can you expect more out of a game? What can be done to retain players who have already logged that much time? NS2 isn't permanent and it's not the game you are going to play for the rest of your life. Just enjoy it now while there is a decent player base because nothing lasts forever.
Once it is properly balanced and fit the basic need (ex: keybinding, yeah it's a fixation with me ) it only needs more maps. And i have lots of ideas on the subject and or how to use it on competition organization. clearly a bigger potential than any other game i have played on.
On the note of K:D, why do we even record/show death? (I do like to see my ratio, but that is a carry over from older games and FPS's in general)
Score has a place, kills have a place, and deaths imo do not. The most discouraging thing for a new player i think is seeing the low kill count and high death count, though that score isnt a guarantee of a players skill. We do not have Res For Kill, dying only negatively effects the team when it comes to spawn queue, and it isnt detailed enough. Who says you didnt join late and get go 0-10 because there are 5 onos on the field? or early game you are taking the skulks you find out but that pesky lerk seems to be hunting you causing a 1:1 ratio. Does this mean you suck?
My vote is to remove everyone's deaths but your own from the score board or toggle it in the menu. It takes out the embarrased factor and allows for more aggressive play. So what if i went 0-12 if my score is 400 from munching on rts, key structures, and healing fellow lifeforms. Wasnt i just as crucial as the 61:2 fade area denial machine?
Talking with new players their K:D ratio is the biggest source of anger (and rage quitting) since they are judging that on how well they are doing in the game. No one looks at score unfortunately. Maybe even instead of death show accuracy?
I don't think there's any value in sugar-coating the truth. Making deaths of others hidden on the scorecard means there's no way for you to know how good you are doing compared to the rest of the team, and therefore no way for you to know if there is scope for improvement. Having 30-15 may seem good, until you see some other guy with 10-0. This is what helped me to realize how much I could improve in NS2, and in other games like CS1.6, BF2, CSGO etc. Getting a high/1:1 KD and doing effective/strategic damage to the opposing team aren't mutually exclusive.
For new players, if they have a low KD they are more likely than not to also have a low score, and vice versa. Perhaps removing the KD altogether and focusing on score only would be best for the pro games, since they're the ones who spend most time ego-stroking and rookie farming on public servers while their team loses.
The presence of a visible death count is not why people are abandoning this game in their droves.
This is the exact attitude we need to change. If i am a skulk that goes 0-5 but my score is over 250 from just biting down extractors, does this mean i suck? Did i not provide a VITAL function to the team. Another instance is i join marines, i stick with a pack of 3 others. The Lerk sees my black armor and singles me out every engagement. I go 0-5 while my team eventually kills the lerk in a hive assault and wins. I must also suck in this scenario also.
Why are K:D ratios not talked about in competitive games? Because they don't matter. Team kills speaks for itself. Talk to competitive players and ask where they aim when faced with a 2-2 situation. Even if i skulk is on themselves they generally aim at their squad mates skulk because it is an easier shot. No matter how good a shot this person is they will not kill the skulk chomping on them since they arent even aiming at it. Their life depends on their mate doing the same. If you die is it because you suck? No.
The presence of a visible death count is what discourages people from moving forward and pressing. They are too afraid to die and look bad. Not to mention rage quits. It is one things to be getting stomped but you dont see the players going 20-5 rage quitting a losing team. It is the ones going 0-15 but have a score of 200. They were vital, but because gamer FPS culture says a bad k:d ratio makes you bad.
A death count servers NO purpose other than E-peen or harassment. It will ease new players into the strategy mind frame and not the k:d CoD, CS, Battlefield rambo.
"Changing attitudes"?! 1984 much? You realize this is just a computer game, right? Yes, let's replace a measure of skill with a participation award! Everybody wins! It is natural that new players would have low kds, BECAUSE THEY ARE NEW TO THE GAME. If new players quit because they are getting low kds, they shouldn't bother playing any game which has any FPS element. If they are quitting rather than trying to improve their gameplay, good riddance. I don't think NS2 needs them.
I've already said this: Negative KDs are not why this game is dying.
I will try this one more time. The whole of your post could be summed up to "I don't agree" with no reason why other than k:d is leetzors, high = good. You are wrong. Maybe if i use caps it will sink in? DEATHS IN THIS GAME DONT MATTER... Wait, that didnt actually help, just makes me look like a tool. I would compromise (This means to agree on a middle ground.) with showing team deaths but any idiot can tell by looking at the other teams kills how many deaths there are.
Score equates to lifeforms and structure deaths or bulding. A high score means you are contributing.
Kills equates to single the death of a player no matter the life-form or equipment. A High kill count means you are pushing the enemy back from some location.
Deaths equates to your life reaching 0. A high death count means nothing.
Score and kills can be a measure of how you are doing because it is a basic representation of what you have done throughout the game. Deaths at the most can be multiplied by the death timer to see how much of the game you werent around. Deaths only become a problem when a long spawn queue is present and people need to stay alive to attack en mass.
A special Noodle TL:DR (in crayon) - A high death count doesnt always indicate a bad player and k:d should not be the gold standard of skill in a FPS/RTS game, but a bad k:d IS a frustration of new players when it really isnt the point of the game.
Below is a game i did well on and felt good about because i field commanded my team to victory. Please tell me why removing the deaths makes this any less informative?
Unedited:
The first image makes you pay more attention to score (which is how the score board is ranked) and then kills. Everyone on my team helped to achieve victory in some way and should feel great about the win. The rookies at my behest, would go straight for important structures while i had other higher life forms cover them. There roll was to take down structures, not kill the marines. Does their high death count mean they failed or are unskilled? No, it does not.
I just started playing the game again after a two month break and some differences from before I stopped playing became apparent immediately. I don't know what's killing ns2, but I sure do love this new phenomena:
As if public wasn't bad enough before, with all the hackusations flying around, now you get votekicked the second your k/d goes above 4 as marine. I played maybe three hours today, got votes to kick me started more than ten times (if it failed, they would just start a new one) and got votekicked twice because of it. This isn't some rookie server either, I never join those, this was all on different KKG servers, which used to be alright to play on because the admins dealt fairly with good players, but now apparently it's impossible to play on them because you just get votekicked.
We never had this shit in ns1; ns2 players are such flaming pussies. New generation of gamers grumble grumble.
I think this is just an American/Euro thing. I've been kicked/banned off a few american servers for going 7-1 as skulk or something like similar, I also tried joining decent servers.
Comments
This is EXACTLY what i say
The old camo was rewarding as it meant new players could get some kills early in the game, before lots of obs are up and the comm can afford to scan areas.
Both old and new camo are made redundant by mid game...none of the changes have changed that aspect.
Sure the old camo meant as a marine you would at times suddenly start taking damage from a cloaked skulk...but its not like that skulk was granted a kill..he still had to land 3 bites.
The shade first tactic itself whilst ensuring new players could get some early kills made winning the actual game all teh harder.
I am sorry that you found dieing early game from a cloaked skulk such an afront to your skills.
But new players found being able to close within striking distance a godsend.
Finding a way to help newer players is seemingly something that most here take personal offense too.
I am sorry but I dont know anyone who will invest hours watching videos of a game just so when they hop in and play a game they dont get their arse handed to them.
Of the dozen ppl I know who all bought this game....I am the only one that plays it...everyone else found it too frustrating, unintuitive, skill floor too high on aliens, too low on marines and basically and poorly balanced considering the differences of the two sides.
It also was - as you wrote yourself - a very risky strategy. Camo got useless in midgame. So while the newbs will get some kills, they finally will lose, because they don't get as much out of camo as you would have to. If you couldn't at least secure 3 TPs in early game, you lost with camo first.
I would really like a mechanic in NS2 that has a very low skill ceiling a weapon that helps new players, but can't be abused by good players. But the old camos skill ceiling was not low. If you know how to use it, you could conceal marines in their base from the beginning.
True but it doesn't solve the main issues NS2 has and tbh they probably never will be solved. Putting balance aside, you really need a decent sized population in order to have somewhat balanced games and 1kish or below will not cut it. Especially if the player population will only be temporarily be boosted by sales which by itself is not bad but the gameplay really tanks when you have greens not knowing what to do and most of all ignoring your advice. Plus the few new players that show interest are stomped by the experienced ones given the small community. I mean it only takes 1-2 good players to decide the game and there are bound to be a few spread in every server. Idk if good tutorials is even enough with the frustration this game brings to most people. I mean when you get something new you usually toss the manual aside and jump right in. It has to be be interactive people love that stuff. Though ISE videos are usually well made with the graphics effects so it should be good.
Plus the stacking is insufferable with people going on the same teams waiting in RR to avoid the greens and then stroking their ego when they win against a team that had no idea what they were doing. I mean how is that even enjoyable? Game ends fast and you do not get to play a decent match and pools closed because everyone leaves. Only time I see good games are when admins get directly involved and split the teams fairly. But leave these players to their own devices and they will stack all day.
Btw how does phantom work at max level? I would assume at level 3 you are fully invisible when not moving and standing still but not so much when you are moving.
Camo was OP because of the obs system which rely on resources and not on energy. With a proper energy system it can/could be balanced.
I don't think there's any value in sugar-coating the truth. Making deaths of others hidden on the scorecard means there's no way for you to know how good you are doing compared to the rest of the team, and therefore no way for you to know if there is scope for improvement. Having 30-15 may seem good, until you see some other guy with 10-0. This is what helped me to realize how much I could improve in NS2, and in other games like CS1.6, BF2, CSGO etc. Getting a high/1:1 KD and doing effective/strategic damage to the opposing team aren't mutually exclusive.
For new players, if they have a low KD they are more likely than not to also have a low score, and vice versa. Perhaps removing the KD altogether and focusing on score only would be best for the pro games, since they're the ones who spend most time ego-stroking and rookie farming on public servers while their team loses.
The presence of a visible death count is not why people are abandoning this game in their droves.
Did Quake ever have a skill ceiling camp? no. And it was the most popular game ever.
Did Quake have match making or any stupid stuff like that? No. Just GameSpy server list, sort by ping, sort by max players. sort by map.
That was another time most players are brainwashed to play fps with autoheal and matchmaking.
Ah yeah you mean the lag that gets you killed right bevor you can reach the corner? The GL-nades flying in your hive room and destroying everything you builded as a com, and cant do shit about it? The fact that infestation is just a "hidden" arrow for the marines pointing to you hiveroom and every other structure? You mean the epic battles where the teams hide behind the corners and you mostly know who is going to win if you just look on the map? And by great strategy you mean the "techtree" that is no techtree because you have little to no choice? Yeah this is the best game ever...
The reason I got the game was because I tried it on a free weekend and it felt great to play the Aliens, it was the dream of every Zerg player but now?
You realize Quake is dead right?
Everyone is playing lolCA (the Quake equivalent of NS combat) because there isn't enough matchmaking to make TDM/CTF/Duel fun
when there are 5000 alternatives, people will go play one of them instead of getting roflstomped
Quake is dead because it rewards skill a lot
Apparently our definitions of "rewarding" are pretty far off. I've always thought of something rewarding as being something you did a little something to accomplish. Honestly, there was not much to walking up to a marine and landing at least 2 bites before he even realizes what's going on. Landing a third is not that hard to do. And I'm actually saying this from an alien perspective, has nothing at all to do with being "an affront to my skills" or any garbage like that. And there's nothing whatsoever personal to any of this, I'm actually surprised you take it that way. I'm simply saying there's ways to help players other then just giving them free kills. I'll say it again, there's not a single game I've played for any decent amount of time that ever kept me interested because of that. In fact, I'm generally turned off to it, just as I've been turned off to games like TF2 and COD for exactly those reasons. I always enjoy games that are, you know, actually rewarding and not just handing me giveaways due to some silly random number generator.
This is the exact attitude we need to change. If i am a skulk that goes 0-5 but my score is over 250 from just biting down extractors, does this mean i suck? Did i not provide a VITAL function to the team. Another instance is i join marines, i stick with a pack of 3 others. The Lerk sees my black armor and singles me out every engagement. I go 0-5 while my team eventually kills the lerk in a hive assault and wins. I must also suck in this scenario also.
Why are K:D ratios not talked about in competitive games? Because they don't matter. Team kills speaks for itself. Talk to competitive players and ask where they aim when faced with a 2-2 situation. Even if i skulk is on themselves they generally aim at their squad mates skulk because it is an easier shot. No matter how good a shot this person is they will not kill the skulk chomping on them since they arent even aiming at it. Their life depends on their mate doing the same. If you die is it because you suck? No.
The presence of a visible death count is what discourages people from moving forward and pressing. They are too afraid to die and look bad. Not to mention rage quits. It is one things to be getting stomped but you dont see the players going 20-5 rage quitting a losing team. It is the ones going 0-15 but have a score of 200. They were vital, but because gamer FPS culture says a bad k:d ratio makes you bad.
A death count servers NO purpose other than E-peen or harassment. It will ease new players into the strategy mind frame and not the k:d CoD, CS, Battlefield rambo.
As if public wasn't bad enough before, with all the hackusations flying around, now you get votekicked the second your k/d goes above 4 as marine. I played maybe three hours today, got votes to kick me started more than ten times (if it failed, they would just start a new one) and got votekicked twice because of it. This isn't some rookie server either, I never join those, this was all on different KKG servers, which used to be alright to play on because the admins dealt fairly with good players, but now apparently it's impossible to play on them because you just get votekicked.
We never had this shit in ns1; ns2 players are such flaming pussies. New generation of gamers grumble grumble.
Yes we had. More than you think. But NS1 was HL1 with tons of hax (from soft to hard) and everybody did use it. the most common was the "3 jump script". I remember at each version of NS (especially the one that blocked script) some players (even claners) said "no i'm bored blah blah". Then 2 weeks later they came back same as it ever was. 2 days before that; a rumors said "hey it's working again". how convenient?
So i can't blame 'em. On my side of the world we now know for sure that aimbots are a reality in NS2. We spotted more than one (4 specs, same time) that just can't deny it. If only "record" was not broken. The thing is, it starts to be annoying with Railgun exos. They never miss, whatever the speed, close, far... never.
*As "mousewheel jump config trick" spread : It show strange animation and it produce mini-lag all over the place and make a marine somehow teleports. I mean we don't see marines on map but bouncing beans. This technical issue should be addressed properly and fast.
a) These guys use config tricks like this because the keybinding config sucks big time.
b) They ultimately have an advantage doing it (they're stupid gamers you know). Win by lag exploit is just not skill. I do not lag, got a top PC (usually first connected), server is 4Ghz etc.. nothing comes in the way.
*As HUD hack seems to be probable : A guy asked forever for armor upgrade. I said that day after 10 or 20 demands (as commander) "shit son!; look at your screen there's a HUD!! You have level 2:2". A big silence followed. I do not believe it's because everybody felt a 'stress' in my voice ton, but because he couldn't say anything that doesn't look suspicious. These guys never seems to be distracted by the rifle model (as i use to move in that corner in their screen when i'm alien).
*As mini-big-map is a possible hax : I'm the kind of alien you never see coming unless you check at the speed of light every corner of a room. Still, even cloaked (before moving) some find a way to just turn 180° (or 90° or any) at the moment you move.
a) could be aimbot again
b) maybe big HUDminimap (screen wide) that shows a big red dot on the screen. That would help.
*As lag is never a precise science. Lag is just tricky all the time. You never can adapt to it because everybody lags differently. It depends on servers (hardware and software), networks, your PC, in fact many parameters. Sometime shooting at the model works, sometime it's in front or behind it. Plus the score board is just wrong about ping latency. On a VPN or not it displays the same (~50) latency... But still some guys manage to always shoot whenever it is relevant while they have "shity regs".
I'm not saying that everything i described is working or is the common stuff. But you have to admit that some things are really suspicious. I have a KD ratio of 2:1 as "only skulk" in combat. With other life forms it would be +4:1. I'm not complaining, but i see that marine 6th sense of the game isn't getting better (position in room, corner checking, they still all look in the same direction...) but close combat is (bouncing bean, etc). I still kill and mock these claners on pub but for how long? as they are the most tempted of all.
So alien have more difficulties not only because of cheater but also because of things that just should be removed.
Example: An alien engage a marine from the ceiling. The marine didn't see it coming. 1 hit, 2 hits landed. Then the marine "mouse-wheel" jump -> 1/4 sec lag, teleportation and he starts to shoot. Skulk dies.
If the alien didn't have the stupid teeth all over the screen he wouldn't be eager to say "hax". I mean if you see a lag bug, you just say "lag bug" and then compensate. On NS2 you can't say aliens are helped on many matters like that.
Suggestion for devs:
*Remove the fùç|{ing teeth (as some claners already do, ho no i said some blasphemous). Only fade and Onos are ok IMO.
*keybinding and proper filtering. No need to send 100 updates to the server for 1 jump.
*Proper spectating mode with tons of options. If it is not for spotting hax at least for learning. Many suggestions have been submitted already.
*Record debugged, and proper tool to convert as video. Many suggestions also.
*Make sure client parameters are set properly (pushed on client).
Then we'll have a decent base for making the game and community better. Until then things gonna get worse.
The game is very interesting.I think the game is not a issue the player only ding wrong.The player takes long time to play the game.
This can be really annoying. I was commanding the other day and a person was glitched into a wall and was just stuck there. After repeatedly telling him to kill him self to respawn as he was being no use to the team, some one suggested we kick him so he can rejoin. So we agreed and I started the vote. it was 18-1 yes (the 1 I am assuming was him). Anyway he re-joined with the first thing happening is him starting a vote to kick me. No one voted yes as I had been on the server commanding for a couple of hours by now and the players where enjoying me and their commander so I thought nothing of it. The next thing I know he starts a new vote a minuet later after the first one failed, then again after that one failed, then a 4th time until someone on the alien team got sick of all these votes popping up so he voted to kick him. which we all voted yes for because quiet frankly he was acting childish and being a general pain in the backside. about 10 minuets later he re-joined and started votes on both me and the other person who voted kick until he gave in and just left. This has left me with a distasteful opinion about the vote kick feature but most of the time it can be useful when there isn't an admin on there.
"Changing attitudes"?! 1984 much? You realize this is just a computer game, right? Yes, let's replace a measure of skill with a participation award! Everybody wins! It is natural that new players would have low kds, BECAUSE THEY ARE NEW TO THE GAME. If new players quit because they are getting low kds, they shouldn't bother playing any game which has any FPS element. If they are quitting rather than trying to improve their gameplay, good riddance. I don't think NS2 needs them.
I've already said this: Negative KDs are not why this game is dying.
I noticed this similar behavior.
* "Why do you want to kick x person?"
- "He's mic is on nonstop"
* "Well then just mute him".
They kick for any reason these days.
Now bad behavior or similar like that I can imagine, but it gets used so much.
I will try again to convince dragon (Vextas admin/clanlead) to make our server non rookie. IF we are nonrookie I know id like to have more experienced folk around.
And I know Dragon atleast doesnt kick blindly due to asumed hack.
But so few admins/players truly check.
Game definiatly needs vets servers. I would join to get awesome i'm so shitty feelings. And maybe learn something. Now it's more like 1-2 godlike players stomping casuals.
Once it is properly balanced and fit the basic need (ex: keybinding, yeah it's a fixation with me
I will try this one more time. The whole of your post could be summed up to "I don't agree" with no reason why other than k:d is leetzors, high = good. You are wrong. Maybe if i use caps it will sink in? DEATHS IN THIS GAME DONT MATTER... Wait, that didnt actually help, just makes me look like a tool. I would compromise (This means to agree on a middle ground.) with showing team deaths but any idiot can tell by looking at the other teams kills how many deaths there are.
Score equates to lifeforms and structure deaths or bulding. A high score means you are contributing.
Kills equates to single the death of a player no matter the life-form or equipment. A High kill count means you are pushing the enemy back from some location.
Deaths equates to your life reaching 0. A high death count means nothing.
Score and kills can be a measure of how you are doing because it is a basic representation of what you have done throughout the game. Deaths at the most can be multiplied by the death timer to see how much of the game you werent around. Deaths only become a problem when a long spawn queue is present and people need to stay alive to attack en mass.
A special Noodle TL:DR (in crayon) - A high death count doesnt always indicate a bad player and k:d should not be the gold standard of skill in a FPS/RTS game, but a bad k:d IS a frustration of new players when it really isnt the point of the game.
Below is a game i did well on and felt good about because i field commanded my team to victory. Please tell me why removing the deaths makes this any less informative?
Unedited:
The first image makes you pay more attention to score (which is how the score board is ranked) and then kills. Everyone on my team helped to achieve victory in some way and should feel great about the win. The rookies at my behest, would go straight for important structures while i had other higher life forms cover them. There roll was to take down structures, not kill the marines. Does their high death count mean they failed or are unskilled? No, it does not.
I think this is just an American/Euro thing. I've been kicked/banned off a few american servers for going 7-1 as skulk or something like similar, I also tried joining decent servers.