"Ablative Armour Upgrade" - Solving Marine 'Tech Explosion & Fade Balls

MistenTH · August 2013

Numbers are for illustration purposes only.

Ablative Armour Upgrade
Upgraded at Armoury for 10 tres, purchasable for 5 pres
Adds 40 ablative armour to marine
Disables sprinting and/or slows down marine
Ablative armour acts as per normal armour, and can be welded back by a welder
Ablative armour is permanently lost when hit by alien ranged attacks (Parasite, Spit/Healspray, Spikes, Hydra, Bile, WhipBombard)
Onos Gore is the only melee attack that will permanently destroy Ablative Armour
Standard fadeswipes to kill (A0/A1/A2/A3): 3,3,4,4
Ablative fadeswipes to kill (A0/A1/A2/A3): 4,4,5,5

Tech/Fade splosions happen because there is no other pres-costing upgrade that is worthwhile to take that gives a clear advantage.

Fadeballs occur because it is worthwhile to save for them, and less pressing need for a lerk or gorge. If marines were to use ablative armour, this would greatly increase the TTK, making fadeballs, but also skulks less effective. This makes lerks & gorges necessary to help combat this marine tech choice.

At the same time, marines have an additional res sink that improves the basic marine, which delays higher tech.

An alien team rushing for fadeballs risk having their fades be less effective without support. A marine team risking saving for higher tech may not be able to hold on long enough to get their higher tech in time to make a difference.

This upgrade comes with downsides as well so it is not a pure advantage but a strategic decision.

Thoughts?

Wob · August 2013

This actually sounds like a good idea. It does start to make marines more expensive though.

Imagine late game.
Jp 15
Sg 20
Welder 3
Ablative armor 5
Total 43 res... Yes risky, yes better armor

Actually thinking about it you dont have to get certain things and it might stop the revolving shotgun spam somewhat too...

Would macs repair it?

It would need to be play tested and I guess sewlek's mod is a good place if we can get his attention

shriike · August 2013

Not a horrible idea, but it does seem a little bit op. You should need base requirements so you can't just instantly research it at the start. Comes with advanced armory?

maD_maX_ · August 2013

Bring back ns1 Exo....

MistenTH · August 2013

A little surprised the idea got some positive responses.

@Nachos I think MACs should be able to repair it. This opens up a possible opening strategy: Ablative Armour + MAC opening. High tres/pres investment for a fast/strong durability boost.

I kept Ablative as a static bonus, as the main purpose would be an early/mid game boost. Late game effectiveness drops off just like mines, since there's more alien AoE/ranged attacks. So perhaps you don't have to buy if you're already at W3/A3.

@Shriike My thought is to make it accessible at basic armoury, in order to open up a new opening strat for marines. But if it's OP for start we could tweak of course.

@Max If you think about it, this upgrade is kind of a "Heavy Armour Lite". Just like HAs, Ablative reduces your speed, ups your durability, you can still use normal weapons and you can still phase. Have some distinctive visual on the marine model to let aliens know marines have teched it (bulkier armour, buttplate, or to keep modelling effort down, change the colour - darker shade = full ablative, which fades as it gets depleted.)

maD_maX_ · August 2013

Just attach it to AA as an upgrade unlike flame/gl I'd say 10ish res so a SG/light Exo. Would cost 30 but like you said be able to phase... Might make a difference in PG grinders as well

meatmachine · August 2013

Oh my god buttplate would be perfect

zenef · August 2013

MistenTH wrote: »

Upgraded at Armoury for 10 tres, purchasable for 5 pres

Should cost at least 10pres and not be available early game. Make it upgradable from advanced armory.

MistenTH wrote: »

Ablative armour is permanently lost when hit by alien ranged attacks (Parasite, Spit/Healspray, Spikes, Hydra, Bile, WhipBombard)

Not a good idea imo.

That is ->

MistenTH wrote: »

Onos Gore is the only melee attack that will permanently destroy Ablative Armour

MistenTH wrote: »

Standard fadeswipes to kill (A0/A1/A2/A3): 3,3,4,4
Ablative fadeswipes to kill (A0/A1/A2/A3): 4,4,5,5

5 swipes to kill jp sounds a lot(make it only available without jp?). If this were to happen, maybe add old focus upgrade for fades ONLY(2xdamage, 2,5-3xslower attackspeed). And make it require at least 7 biomass(need 3 hives -> cant be used early-mid game, would be too powerful otherwise)

I like the idea.

Paragon · August 2013

That's an interesting concept, but perhaps making the distinction between melee and ranged damage effect on the extra armor isn't necessary. I think that the upgrade should simply add a layer of extra armor at the cost of slowing you down. That's my take on the idea:

Extra armor pack.
> commander unlocks it by research at an (Advanced) Armory
> purchasable for personal resources
> each Marine can buy several packs (say max 3, this number could be tied to current Armor Upgrade level)
> each pack adds another (small) layer of armor and further slows down the Marine
> sustained damage drains the extra armor first (and health)
> the extra armor of each pack may be welded back only if the pack has not been entirely drained, otherwise the extra armor layer from this pack is permanently lost
> purchasing a Jet Pack removes (drops?) all current extra armor (perhaps the armor packs could be dropable items?)
> purchasing Extra Armor while having a Jet Pack causes you to drop the JP

Alkix · August 2013

The thing that I would worry about is that this upgrade might actually make the marine's position weaker against aliens. To me that extra armor is just being thrown away. Instead of a fade ball that you can fight with a more mobile marine group, you have to deal with half a fade ball that sits back while the new armor gets wrecked by a celerity gorge (this is the first thing I would do if I saw this upgrade on the field). Then, when the armor is down (it won't take long, you can't dodge that gorge because you are slow.) the fade comes in and makes short work.

Or, a worse scenario, the kharmander rushes spores and you end up with a bunch of slow marines getting pinned down by lerk spikes and spores. A flamethrower would help out sure, but that's another gun you don't have against the lerk spikes.

Now, perhaps OP's intention is to allow this upgrade to be used as a response to a fade ball, and my two above paragraphs are responses that aliens would have against a marine team initiating this tech.

Wob · August 2013

Alkix wrote: »

The thing that I would worry about is that this upgrade might actually make the marine's position weaker against aliens. To me that extra armor is just being thrown away. Instead of a fade ball that you can fight with a more mobile marine group, you have to deal with half a fade ball that sits back while the new armor gets wrecked by a celerity gorge (this is the first thing I would do if I saw this upgrade on the field). Then, when the armor is down (it won't take long, you can't dodge that gorge because you are slow.) the fade comes in and makes short work.

Or, a worse scenario, the kharmander rushes spores and you end up with a bunch of slow marines getting pinned down by lerk spikes and spores. A flamethrower would help out sure, but that's another gun you don't have against the lerk spikes.

Now, perhaps OP's intention is to allow this upgrade to be used as a response to a fade ball, and my two above paragraphs are responses that aliens would have against a marine team initiating this tech.

I dont think the gorge would be a viable tactic.

The lerk, yes and this is what the idea is about. Mixing up lifeforms from 5 fades

MistenTH · August 2013

@alkix As Nachos says, this is exactly what this idea wants to happen. An ablative a1 marine with 1 medpack needs 5 hits to die. Suddenly, direct melee combat becomes weaker. Startingwith welders and macs makes sense as marines won't die to ambushes instantly and can use them.

Now you can't go 1/1/4 in competitive anymore. Perhaps 1/2/3 or 3/1/2. In pugs, that solo pro fade can't get kills and stop pushes on his own as it takes too long.

Aliens have to respond by using other lifeforms, or punish the immobility by hitting rear rt and bases. That's good! Mix it up.

At the same time, it costs each marine 8 pres with welder each time he dies, so killing the tougher marine achieves something, and not the lol a3 marine respawn for free frustration.

@paragon @zenef yes, this should not stack with JPs. The bulky armour takes up the attachment point

@paragon I distinguished between ranged/melee to give a real benefit for using other lifeforms. IMO if ablative treats all attacks similarly, we may end up that fade/skulk may still end up being the best counter again.

However, we can definitely explore different ways of implementation. The beauty of a balance mod and a real discussion . We can test all ideas and see what really works.

Keep the discussion going guys, if this really gets good support I will compile all the feedback and submit to sewlek for his consideration.

"Ablative Armour Upgrade" - Solving Marine 'Tech Explosion & Fade Balls

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