I'm starting to become a competent marine commander, but have a couple questions..
lukeman3000
Join Date: 2013-08-13 Member: 186801Members
Join Date: 2013-08-13 Member: 186801Members
I think I've got the basics down for marine commander, but I'm still a long ways off from advanced tactics.
That said, I've noticed that most of the time when I command, it's in a server where no one really knows each other, and it's usually pretty uncoordinated.
And before I ask this, let me say that I know that each game is unique, and there isn't one specific strategy that can be widely applied to every game, but when I'm commanding in a server with noobs who are fairly uncoordinated, what's the best way to go about it? Early phase? Sentries? Some combination of the two?
In other words, what's the best way to command a game when you have people who are uncoordinated and can't shoot very accurately? I guess that perhaps there might not be any way to win a game where people can't shoot, but some are better than others.
That said, I've noticed that most of the time when I command, it's in a server where no one really knows each other, and it's usually pretty uncoordinated.
And before I ask this, let me say that I know that each game is unique, and there isn't one specific strategy that can be widely applied to every game, but when I'm commanding in a server with noobs who are fairly uncoordinated, what's the best way to go about it? Early phase? Sentries? Some combination of the two?
In other words, what's the best way to command a game when you have people who are uncoordinated and can't shoot very accurately? I guess that perhaps there might not be any way to win a game where people can't shoot, but some are better than others.
Comments
Assist with medipack spam and scream at them to use welders on each other.
+1, very much needed as people tend to forget that armories don't heal armor anymore, so buying welders is paramount.
1) build armory
2) build Observatory Tower (OBS)
3) research Phase Gates (PG) from OBS
4) get res nodes going have at least 3-4 at start.
5) get to 2nd base, drop phase gates between bases
if your team keeps getting crushed then you have to make them pass by the res points and get to a 2nd base and build PG. Once PGs are up, then you can have people go back and re-capture the res nodes.
then when you can
*) build sentries at least at remote base (to protect pg, because everybody leaves those alone)
*) get arms lab (order of research -> armor 1, then weapons 1, then armor 2, then weapons 2, then weapons 3, and finally armor 3)
*) research shotguns
*) put a forward phase gate to push on their side of the base
stuff to do when you have extra res
*) get Infantry Portals at other bases !important
*) secure a 2nd ARMS lab at another base for backup
*) upgrade another armory to advanced
*) drop JETPACKS, shotguns, flamethowers, and grenade launchers
*) drop EXOs
*) build macs and have them follow good people
*) nano shield and make it rain medpacks, and scans when you a pushing a base
Try sticking down arms lab first, you get the fastest A1 ever and you can stick the armory down later, say in the 2nd base.
You do need PG's soonish however, but A1 can win a surprising amount of fights if got really early.
Some other points:
A1,A2 is sometimes better than A1,W1,etc because of fadeballs.
if you are com for 12 or so players and they die a lot, might want to get a 2nd IP
Dropping EXO's is not always a good idea, you can only drop the 1-minigun one (not that good) and a jP + mines might be better.
Lastly, I'm just gona say it, I DON'T like sentries. Maybe its a force of habit from patches before, but I still think of them as waste of res.
Anyway, _goats' strat is probably better (than mine :P ) for larger maps, or when your marines just can't win battles, but do what you think can win at the time
and if they are complete rookies, selecting them and useing waypoints helps them find their way arounds, as most of them forget to use the map.
Med & Nano-shield the good players with higher KDR and are helping you secure locations or be aggressive. These will likely be the lifeform killers as well.
Resist spending too much tres on perishables items, focus on getting PGs, and Arms Lab upgrades as they benefit everyone for free.
Focus on holding 4-5 RTs. In a typical pub match, you will need Exos up to even try to end the game. One major reason marines lose ground is because they try to push out on their own, abandon all your bases, then they all die in the attack, while some bilebomb gorges kill off all your bases. Rein the marines in, make sure there is always 1 team on defence. Put em on a leash.
Once you have PGs, A2/W2 or so, get a few MACs to station at armouries, to help rebuild RTs so you can focus your better marines on pressure instead of recapping.
Welcome to the ranks of the elite Marine Comms, and remember, use the Mike Luke.
Waypoints are also very helpful for noobs. Give a group of players specific waypoints and the directions will appear on their screen, making it almost idiot proof. Almost.
sentries while nice for chip damage are way to costy to spam around the map.
Though we all wish what you say was true, it's unfortunately not the case. Especially in case of marines, the tech tree is fairly linear, and though you can make a few alterations, most of the games are actually quite similar. That said, investing in armor and weapon upgrades is never bad, because marines retain those bonuses even after being killed. If you give new players expensive weapons, o god forbid, exos, they will blow all their pres at once and lose the ability to benefit from your research later. But with weapons and armor upgrades, they always have the bonus, and it's easy to have multiple arms labs for redundancy.
There are multiple reasons why going for fast phase gates is a bad idea:
1) Opportunity cost: armory + obs + phase tech + 2 phase gates = 60tres. Compare to: arms lab + w1 + a1 = 60tres
2) Managing to drop, finish and secure a phase gate at an outpost is by no means a certainty, and every lost phase gate is 15 more tres to their expense. Researching upgrades is (more or less) a certain investment that you cannot lose during the entire match.
3) It's much more likely that you'll lose your phase gates when your marines do not have upgrades. Going for upgrades first and phase gates later will make it more likely that you'll not waste res on phase gates that get destroyed.
4) Even if your marines are good enough to handle skulks without upgrades, the delayed upgrades mean that they will have an extremely hard time competing against higher lifeforms. A good lerk will absolutely dominate w0a0 marines while good fades have no trouble killing w1a1 marines. This will most probably lead to lost phase gates after the 4-minute mark and setting the marines back to square one.
All these points can more or less be summarised into aforism that's one of the cornerstones of NS2:
Buildings, tech and map presence do not equal map control. Winning engagements does.
For newer players, get that second ip up, research mines, and start arms lab and armor 1 while capping as many nodes as you think you can hold. Have them use mines defensively at RTs so they can learn how to apply pressure at harvesters instead.
Edit: Also pleaaasse stop going quick advanced armory. If you have a decent shot or 2 and fades aren't out yet, you can reserach sgs. Otherwise, just keep getting those weapon and armor upgrades and go for a pg in the center of the map (crossroads on summit or hub on tram, etc). Put mines around the pg.
Personally- I go armory, obs, RT, 2nd IP, arms lad (armor 1, weapons 1), pg
shotguns, armor 2/weapons 2, advanced, proto, JPs, 3/3, exos
Not every time but usually something along those lines. Also I like to go early mines to help with skulks it can help protect RTs etc w/o the need for PGs.
@_goat I didn't think you could drop exos after reinforced? Might be wrong but I couldn't see them last I com'd this weekend.
Just so you know, they'll only beacon to nearest chair. If you have 10 obs and one chair, they're comin back to that one. Besides, you don't want to become dependent on pricey beacons.
I find there's a balance of when do research them and will frequently get a PG up first before W1 and A1 are both complete, because it allows the team to better hold that territory, which they would otherwise be stifled and stuck at the nearest RTs and never grouping together due to running right after spawn.
This doesn't mean a PG at the nearest Techpoint, however.. this means one PG deep across the map in a strategic location (hello pressure control!)
IF your team can coordinate well and shoot well, sure - don't bother with an armory or PGs, and rush W1 and W2...
But goodluck when assuming such a thing in a public game..
at the start of the game : 2nd ip, armory, the 2 first rts, obs, research PG.
cap as much rts as you can
get a control map PG that will let you keep your rts
then 2 arms lab, tech to 3/3. You can sell an arms lab if you don't have the res to launch both 3rd upgrades at the same time.
throw SG/mines when you have at least 2/2.
get a PG next to a hive
ARC factory into arc train, siege everything, gg
While you are getting arcs you can get nanoshield if you have the res.
You can also drop an armory next to the pg where you siege.
Only med/nano/giveammo the good marines.
DO NOT drop random armories around the maps, even if they ask.
DO NOT research advanced armory, because noobs will buy flamethrowers and GLs and be even more useless.
DO NOT build CCs/armories/obs and basically duplicate your base at other tech points.
Med during important engagements.
Keep your obs hotkey'd and beacon in case of bilebomb rush or something.
As stated above, don't forget to encourage your team for jobs well done and also to consol them for a loss, like bad luck on that location. Also I apologies when I couldn't med them when they call for it (the bunny hopping marines are hard to target). Don't forget you are the leader / commander, so you need to pull your rag tag band together, so don't lose your cool.
tl;dr: have fun and communicate to your team. Don't lose your temper and blame them for losing (its only a game, and the other team might be just superior in skill).
Well, except for this one, this applies for both sides...
Communicate with your team, but be nice and encouraging. The guy who goes. "GET TO FUCKING NANO YOU RETARDS!" is less likely to be taken seriously then "We're doin' good team! Let's see if we can siege them next, I've got a few ARC's goin' to West, let's see if we can take them together!" Give players that "feelgood" they want from playing a game, and they'll subconsciously want to follow you. This goes without saying, but be sure to have a mic for this. Also goes without saying, Congratulate them. Try to not be negative.
"Awesome guys, You're winning this for me, We've got 7 Resource nodes!"
"Great work locking up Subsector. I'll watch your base for you."
"We may of lost Subsector, but you killed Pipeline! Let's get a Phase Gate up. Great work team!"
"We might not be doin' too great, but we can break them. Let's go for a coordinated push on C12!"
"Well, we may of lost, but we had some great Plays. That was an excellent comeback on their part, eh?"
If you have difficulty getting a coordinated rush, and you want EVERYONE in on it, there's a marine icon in the corner of your screen. Click it, and then issue a command. Everybody will see that command on their screen. Some players are drawn to following orders, but some players are just lone-wolf types who don't care much for it. Leave them be.
I typically always go for Phase Tech off the bat. This requires coordination, but lock down two additional Tech Points. Aliens need three tech points to become unstoppable, but if they've only got two, Marines can systematically take them out one at a time.
If you find a lot of marines are at a location, unable or refusing to continue, make a Firebase. In NS2, Firebases are amazingly easy to create. Just pop an armory and let them do it. Done! If they continue to meet heavy resistance, give them a Phase Gate. Observatory.
I typically go into "Res Starved" mode when I've only got two Extractors. I always keep a float of 15 Res for support (5 for aliens) and use support extremely sparingly. Keep in mind that a Obs Ping is amazingly helpful to your marines, but so are upgrades.
Can't stress how important Support is as a Commander. Marines feel like they need their commander to hold their hand. Medpacks, Ammo when needed, Scans and Nanoshield. MAC's count as support to me when Exo's roll out and the Machine Shop's (Never remember the name of it) Energize Support is invaluable to keeping a firebase alive when the power goes out. It'll power a structure (Phase gate, anyone?) for a few seconds. Even cat-packs can help a Marine in so many ways.
Mines too. Even uncoordinated Marines like mines. It'll get the smarter Marines to put up defenses so everyone can leave bases and firebases, so be sure to research them. Fewer marines will need to defend when mines are afoot.
That's all I got. I gotta head to work! I sort of view Commanders as a Dungeons and Dragons DM. Your job is to provide a challenge that your Marines can overcome, and to ensure that everybody has fun. Of course, those Aliens are a variable trying to make sure your marines are dinner! Good luck keeping them alive!
Arcs and mines. Even a marine with 10% accuracy can shoot a static skulk biting an arc....
+ sentries on gates.
gg
It is kind of sad how true this is. I have been making a special effort over the last couple weeks (ok I have crap internet right now) to command in more games and try to force players to follow good habits and do my best to support even poor players as much as possible with drifter spam/medpacks. It gets very depressing seeing a w2a1 marines die to a non-leap skulk after receiving 3+ medpacks then asking why we don't have a PG at the closest TP to our base or have exosuits yet when it is 9min into the game.
Best bet is to support any (skilled) players on your team that are pushing into enemy territory and actually killing things/staying alive, get them what they want (shotguns, weapons upgrades, nanoshield whatever, ask them). Then try to force the aimless wandering marines where you want by being picky with phase gate locations, 3 gates MAX and try to keep at least one gate in an offensive position. Fortify your offensive gate with turrets an armory and an obs (never underestimate sight, also a good spare beacon if you lose obs in main) then roll out the ARCs.
If/when you get into alien comm just remember one thing: whips
Everybody loves whips!
For "comm tips", i would say:
learn the hotkey for dropping meds/ammo (E>S;E>A) as rine
learn to manage drifter as alien
As alien, get also used to hotkey a shift to quickly echo stuff (if you have a shift hive). Great ability.
Did i mention to use your mic?
Number One as marine com (you mention "shoot") - there will always be one decent 'rine on your team, look for those without green names. Watch really closely to the initial engagements to work out who looks like a ninja. Focus MEd packs and Ammo on these peeps only, unless a Rambo has gotten into a Hive and is miraculously shooting the upgrades.
Learn to be harsh to silly behavior, silently, by not rewarding those people who do not accumulate Points (as in, the 2nd column of the player score board).
No fail initial build for at least not looking silly for pub com: drop armory, drop both close extractors, drop obs, aim for phase. If you need two IP's at this stage do it, other wise use incoming res for upgrades (as in Level 2 armor / level 1 weapons or level 2 weapons / level 2 armor ... there is a long thread somewhere about why it is best to spend the least amount of time in Armor 1 ... lets not get distracted.)
Make sure you have shot guns and level 1 weapons before 6 minutes if you control less than 5 res.
Beacon + Nanoshield your elite peeps if winning buy this stage.
Get Jet packs but caution their use to only people who show 'Jumpability.'
If non elite people scream for Exos, which they will, get Arcs.
If you have 3 bases and are gaining no ground, get Arcs.
( Applies to both points above ) - Send the Arcs in pairs to separate map locations.
Macs for Exos tend to get melted by the Bile that melts the Exos, you *need* to micro AI units.
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As an Alien commander, notice that most buildings move, as well as have individual upgrades and abilities, some of which are not used automatically, such as the Crag's Heal Wave.
Biomass!
Misuse of current Alien tech tree: Research leap from a Whip at Biomass level 2.
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Press J for Tech Tree
Press C for Big Map
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The way I learnt to Comm/Kamm was by playing one on ones online.
Use the in game Server Browser to find games with one person only.
It will be different from the tutorials, you heart will race, blood will pound, your harvesters won't place because they have macs there already, or you will take 2 res nodes and find they have cysted the other 80% of the map ...
But you will learn.
Hint: Try going marine, although harder initially you are more likely to get the '1st' joiner on your team.
The best way going about as the commander would be to do things that benefit the team whether or not they listen to you such as getting general upgrades and base defenses rather than trying to setup complicated (at least for those kind of players) maneuvers/plans with the team.