since I play mostly comp where turtles are not a problem. I don't really care.
.
Not being able to speak about it I could understand.. But not caring?
Forgive me for being so blunt, but i would think that you should care about the quality of the game in which 90% of it's player base frequently experiences as it is what draws or scares people away from ever attempting to play competitively (or at all)
@jekt I would agree, although you need spikes early game to deal with shotguns, because otherwise spores would have to be OP to compensate, as we've experienced in the past.
Considering how confusing /unfriendly lerk bite is to newer players, (and the risks comp players won't even take with it these days) I'd sooner throw it to T3.. With spores & spikes @ T1. Or at a minimum auto bite only when in range, while spiking (like how both onos attacks were combined into one)
I wouldn't be opposed to a very powerfull posion bit as T3 lerk, but the issue would be at that point, getting in that close would be almost suicide.
Bite and spores at T1 (I feel like the lerk needs spores to effectivly play its harass/support role)
Spikes at T2 (lets shotguns be used to gain ground before a counter comes out)
50% umbra at T3 (I would also want it to protect against nades)
Another (very experimental and theoretic) idea:
What if Exos and Onos were promoted to the role of "super units"?
Make them ONLY available as expensive drop from the commander, not for pres. That would mean that you only ever have a small amount of them on the field at the same time or at least delay their arrival long enough. In return could you them to make them actually worth being the valuable unit that both teams equally want to focus on and which is strong enough to warrant having usually only one or at best two of them on the field at a time.
Perhaps not the best units for killing players but with massive HP and more with the role of an endgame siege unit.
Drawbacks would be of course that the "cool lifeform" would no longer be easily obtainable for a majority of the players in the match and that it would create the issue of having the commander favor specific players over others, so bad players would never get to play with those toys. (Besides that everyone could still snatch the dropped Exo or Onos egg before someone else)
Plus it would be kinda hard to fit the Minigun-Fist and Railgun Exos in there, since the super unit would obviously be only the Dual Minigun Exo while the other variants were more supposed to be on par with Fades. It would not seem logical to have easy access to those lesser Exo variants for pres but not to a version that simply has one additional weapon.
Alternative idea:
Instead of being able to instantly grab a dropped Exo or buy one from the Prototype Lab, the Exo needs to be constructed like a regular structure first and can then be entered. This would create a short delay at least and allows aliens to possibly intervene.
If Exos actually had to be constructed in a special structure (a "super unit building", as it's commonly known from other RTS games) and only one Exo could be constructed at a time, then this would mean that you had a built-in delay between the arrival of multiple Exos unless the commander builds more of these structures.
Another (very experimental and theoretic) idea:
What if Exos and Onos were promoted to the role of "super units"?
Make them ONLY available as expensive drop from the commander, not for pres. That would mean that you only ever have a small amount of them on the field at the same time or at least delay their arrival long enough. In return could you them to make them actually worth being the valuable unit that both teams equally want to focus on and which is strong enough to warrant having usually only one or at best two of them on the field at a time.
Perhaps not the best units for killing players but with massive HP and more with the role of an endgame siege unit.
Drawbacks would be of course that the "cool lifeform" would no longer be easily obtainable for a majority of the players in the match and that it would create the issue of having the commander favor specific players over others, so bad players would never get to play with those toys. (Besides that everyone could still snatch the dropped Exo or Onos egg before someone else)
Plus it would be kinda hard to fit the Minigun-Fist and Railgun Exos in there, since the super unit would obviously be only the Dual Minigun Exo while the other variants were more supposed to be on par with Fades. It would not seem logical to have easy access to those lesser Exo variants for pres but not to a version that simply has one additional weapon.
Alternative idea:
Instead of being able to instantly grab a dropped Exo or buy one from the Prototype Lab, the Exo needs to be constructed like a regular structure first and can then be entered. This would create a short delay at least and allows aliens to possibly intervene.
If Exos actually had to be constructed in a special structure (a "super unit building", as it's commonly known from other RTS games) and only one Exo could be constructed at a time, then this would mean that you had a built-in delay between the arrival of multiple Exos unless the commander builds more of these structures.
I awesome this because I hate exos and onoses and I think they would be used less if this was implemented
Constructing exos however, is simply a good idea. I believe in a thing called time sinks. Like how the armory heals wayyyyy to fast
basicly, if you give more speed to basic unit (250 skulk), you have to nerf health. Or give something to other side (speed or power as a basic). It compares to higher units too. Give speed (fade 250-->), then must have something to compare, it can be weapons, units or more weapons upgrades. Nowadays i dont see these things balanced. You need huge ambush to kill fades(fade balls). You can see it from Reddog's streams. Fades's come out, marines 0 kill's after that. Someone can say that shotgun cost only 20 res and fade 40 (so you should need 2 shotgunners to kill fade), but this game is asymmetrical. From that logic, onos would not die ever (like fades die), cos marines can recycle weapons etc etc (onos cost a lot). If fades die more, fadeball is no longer issue. Keep cost low, and give marines something to deal with em'.
High mobility fades, who don't even really need to worry about energy to maintain high speed, and can change direction with minimal slowdown require very low HP to compensate.
I say slow the fade down and increase the energy management requirements a bit, and then increase HP (or biomass scaling) to balance out the slower speed.
Bite and spores at T1 (I feel like the lerk needs spores to effectivly play its harass/support role)
Spikes at T2 (lets shotguns be used to gain ground before a counter comes out)
50% umbra at T3 (I would also want it to protect against nades)
Err.. we tried that exact setup pre launch and it failed miserably, leading to what we have now.
I agree the lerk needs medium ranged spores, but it also most definitely needs spikes. We found that out the hard way.
Umbra is nice and fits it's role and can be adjusted to whatever Tier, but is nice on T2 i feel (gives more reason to lerk before fades)
Bite is... um... well.. i don't have a lot of nice things to say about it, design wise, lol, but it does make the class more combative i guess.
Did you try this for lerk:
T1: bite & spike
T2: spores, ranged and transparent (marines can see through), like ns1
T3: umbra, not ranged obscures vision a lot
Imho it would be much more logical to have the ability that blocks bullets also block vision while spores are usually something you dont see at all. It would also fit the support role for the lerk to have ranged spores to harrass marines while his umbra which supports his teammates should be close to him. Bite should be sort of a last resort weapon unless you find an opportunity to kill a defenseless or distracted target.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Yea that's what it was before b250, obviously, except no one bothered researching spores because it was competing with leap, blink, bb, etc.
Oh and it wasn't ranged or transparent, of course.
I do think medium ranged spores and spikes at T1 would better communicate to newer players what it's role is, prevent frustrating encounters/deaths, and prevent any OP lerking in the early game. (not that that's been a problem since it's current HP/armor values have been in place)
But the more skilled definitely enjoy their bite/spike risky combo regardless of that - i do as well but only in the early game, after that its not worth doing anything more than peeking around a corner to spray umbra or spike momentarily given it's speed, hitbox, and hp.
Yes, as long as the spores are not vision obstructing (and maybe have a bit less dps) they could very well be ranged and reasearchable from one hive...
Err.. we tried that exact setup pre launch and it failed miserably, leading to what we have now.
I agree the lerk needs medium ranged spores, but it also most definitely needs spikes. We found that out the hard way.
Umbra is nice and fits it's role and can be adjusted to whatever Tier, but is nice on T2 i feel (gives more reason to lerk before fades)
Bite is... um... well.. i don't have a lot of nice things to say about it, design wise, lol, but it does make the class more combative i guess.
I know, i was there
I agree about bite being a poor design decision, but as long as spores remain cropduster-style, the lerk will need to get in close anyway, so it might as well stay to give the lerk more combat options once he gets in close (I preferred the old(er) lerk with no bite at all and shotgun burst spikes)
What failed miserably about that setup? I don't remember anything horrible happening.
Bite and spores at T1 (I feel like the lerk needs spores to effectivly play its harass/support role)
Spikes at T2 (lets shotguns be used to gain ground before a counter comes out)
50% umbra at T3 (I would also want it to protect against nades)
Err.. we tried that exact setup pre launch and it failed miserably, leading to what we have now.
I agree the lerk needs medium ranged spores, but it also most definitely needs spikes. We found that out the hard way.
Umbra is nice and fits it's role and can be adjusted to whatever Tier, but is nice on T2 i feel (gives more reason to lerk before fades)
Bite is... um... well.. i don't have a lot of nice things to say about it, design wise, lol, but it does make the class more combative i guess.
Does that mean it shouldn't be tried again with 250?
On a side note do I find it a bit weird that I mostly would like to see changes that nerf marines and/or buff aliens, regardless of what the current win ratio says. Maybe that is because I find the alien gameplay in its current form not as fun anymore as it used to be in previous iterations, but I can't really put my finger on it. That aspect comes even before balance for me.
Not being able to speak about it I could understand.. But not caring?
Forgive me for being so blunt, but i would think that you should care about the quality of the game in which 90% of it's player base frequently experiences as it is what draws or scares people away from ever attempting to play competitively (or at all)
Quite honestly, no, I don't care at all. I cannot muster any interest in trying to solve a problem that already has multiple answers (conceding, aliens using even the tiniest speck of teamwork etc.) when the game has genuine balance issues that I'm more drawn to. All I'm advocating for is that you don't solve the problem on the expense of normal gameplay quality.
You can call me a bad person if it makes you feel better, but I'm not trying to be the Mother Teresa of NS2. And you would never say such a thing to a pubber who said he doesn't give a damn about competitive, now would you?
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
I would actually, because i care about balancing the game for all groups. Even the smallest percentage group of UWE's sales should enjoy their game.
Doesn't make me into a hyperbole like Mother Teresa .. just makes me not selfishly want a fixed game for myself, and a broken game for others.
Conceding and teamwork are both used, btw, neither of which are a solution. (you don't see anyone suggesting conceding as a solution to the fadeball... do you?)
Anyways, this is besides the point. For the 3rd time, what "quality" is 1 CC T3 tech bringing??
Because this problem arose from the introduction of this lame mechanic, and i highly doubt whatever it brings you could not easily reproduce by shifting values to therefore have both parties profit.
The only answer that was given was "Allowing marines to get advance tech on 1 cc has given marines much more freedom for aggressive play," which is pretty vague and was not the intended purpose behind it, nor do i think this is actually the case given the timings that exos and W3 are practically researched. (i.e. never in a timeframe that would be considered "Aggressive" ??)
Here's what i think: Marines are grossly at a disadvantage in multiple ways in the current build, and if this were not the case then people would be screaming for such a fundamentally imbalanced mechanic to be changed. Map control is how you win this game, because map control determines tech and economy. Having only one side have a requirement to follow this formula is an imbalance and basically just changes the game to "Beat the clock" before marines get fully teched.
Asymmetry is amazing and should be sought for in playstyles and tech.. but the winning condition should always be equally accessible (This is why travel times to RTs and timings are considered)
The only reason this mechanic isn't seen as a gross perversion and is seen as a means to allow "more freedom" is because of the imbalanced advantage it currently affords a struggling team that averages a 30% winrate according to sponitor.
So sure, keep it for now.. but eventually once things are balanced out this mechanic will stick out like a sore thumb, (like it did in alpha/beta) even for you comp players who do not care what "quality" it currently brings to pubs.
I think the 1 CC Exo/JP has more benefits than drawbacks and should stay.
Once again, people are trying to circumvent a problem instead of fixing it. If Exos are too strong/whatever, help Aliens deal with them, directly. Don't start stupid stuff like restricting Exos with 2 CC requirement or whatever.
TLDR: Onos needs more HP/Armor. Will that be in the August update?
The problem is how the power of Exos scale on servers with higher playercounts.
In a 6 vs 6 may it still be somewhat acceptable, with only 5 marines on the field do you never want more than 2 Exos at maximum.
But from 8 players upwards do I feel like the balance shifts too much in favor of the marines. They can easily afford 4 Exos on the field or at least have some guys go Exo and have enough other guys with spare res to immediately replace any fallen Exo on the field.
Those Exos focusing fire on lifeforms decimate pretty much anything the aliens come up with before it even gets in range and can cover each others feet to eliminate one of the weak points of an Exo.
And since structure health doesn't scale with playercount, a Hive goes down in no time when 4 Exos focus on it.
Structures seem to be the weakest part in scaling anyway. Everything dies faster because more players can attack it.
But Crags don't heal any faster. And they also don't heal more than 3 things at a time, even though there are more players present on the team now. And since your supply cap doesn't scale either, you can't build more Crags to solve that issue.
What does 1-CC Proto bring to the table? I can only speak from a pub perspective and I say it does nothing for pub play whatsoever (well actually that's a lie as I do enjoy last stands and prolonging the game for several more minutes). What benefits does it bring to comp play then? Do those benefits warrant the problems introduced to pub play? The justification used for bringing Proto to 1-CC isn't working (which iirc is for comebacks) so shouldn't it be reverted back to its pre-buff state?
Actually it would be interesting if research to a certain point become exponentially longer on 1-CC, yet drastically shortens on 2/3-CC.
Well whatever it's not like we'll get anywhere trying to balance for 2 distinct game modes (6v6 and 10v10+) using only 1 setting. Think its time for UWE to admit this isn't working and implement a dedicated pub (10v10+) and comp (6v6) mode with different balance settings.
IIRC the reasoning behind it was not so much about making comebacks possible as it was about making the playstyles involved in it more accessible.
I.e. allowing players to get to play as Exo or Jetpacker more frequently, since games could often end in the past before those things got on the table or because marines often failed to secure a second tech point in pubs or hold it long enough for Exos to come out.
On the alien side can players get their most powerful unit even on 1 Hive. So the marines were pushed in a similar corner, I think.
Though retrospectively that doesn't make much sense either because aliens still need more Hives to unlock all the different playstyles for their lifeforms.
Effectively the ProtoLab on 1 CC was introduced primarily for pub play, not for comp play.
The problem is how the power of Exos scale on servers with higher playercounts.
In a 6 vs 6 may it still be somewhat acceptable, with only 5 marines on the field do you never want more than 2 Exos at maximum.
But from 8 players upwards do I feel like the balance shifts too much in favor of the marines. They can easily afford 4 Exos on the field or at least have some guys go Exo and have enough other guys with spare res to immediately replace any fallen Exo on the field.
Those Exos focusing fire on lifeforms decimate pretty much anything the aliens come up with before it even gets in range and can cover each others feet to eliminate one of the weak points of an Exo.
And since structure health doesn't scale with playercount, a Hive goes down in no time when 4 Exos focus on it.
Structures seem to be the weakest part in scaling anyway. Everything dies faster because more players can attack it.
But Crags don't heal any faster. And they also don't heal more than 3 things at a time, even though there are more players present on the team now. And since your supply cap doesn't scale either, you can't build more Crags to solve that issue.
Haha only heal 3 things at a time? Crags are literally terrible.
@Ironhorse
You know, this game is asymmetrical (yeah i play that card) and the marines should not have to rely on mapcontrol to get their tech going, instead they should be pressed to get enough tres in order to get the neccesary upgrades in order to win. The aliens on the other hand should be relying on mapcontrol in order to get their hives up to research the abilities that give their higher lifeforms the edge over the marines.
It does not matter what quality technology X is bringing for situation Y you have to see the situation as a whole. Therius already tried to explain to you why putting important marine tech on a 2 cc requirement effects every part of the game. Basically, it leaves the marines always open for a counterattack on one of their CCs. The base trading in NS2 is the worst i have seen in any strategy game since it is so alien favoured. A skulk can harrass an undefended marine base twice as much as a JP marine can harass an undefended hive. This is the asymmetry and this is the problem with marines having to hold multiple techpoints and additionally having to pressure the aliens.
@Ironhorse
You know, this game is asymmetrical (yeah i play that card) and the marines should not have to rely on mapcontrol to get their tech going, instead they should be pressed to get enough tres in order to get the neccesary upgrades in order to win. The aliens on the other hand should be relying on mapcontrol in order to get their hives up to research the abilities that give their higher lifeforms the edge over the marines.
Unfortunately that is not really the case currently. Marines need 490 tres for a fully teched up base, including 2nd IP, 2x PG, ARC Factory and all upgrades, without Sentries. Aliens need 660 tres for 3 Hives and Biomass 9 with all upgrades, evolutions and traits and one chamber of each kind. 750 tres if you want to factor the 4th Hive with Biomass for maximum HP in. The difference is just that marines pay 2 more tres per RT than aliens.
The "problem" is probably that pretty much all maps in NS2 are made in a way that map control in form of tech points automatically also grants you the control over the resources. An alien team that manages to secure other Hive locations would win the resource fight against the 1-base marines if it wasn't for the circumstance that marines need actually less res than aliens do, since they can also recycle everything.
I wouldn't call the base trading exactly alien-favored. They are not required to hold that CC. They can rebuild all the important stuff in another base in no time. At best they need a spare Arms Lab there to not be caught off guard by losing a base and then getting crushed. But the different to aliens is that aliens lose a part of their fighting power with a Hive that they can't instantly regain because it requires a lot more construction and research time again, have to pay a steep price for and can't sufficiently prepare for because they need tech points for that.
If aliens have 2 Hives and marines have 2 CCs and both start rushing a base of the other party, then I dare to say that the aliens are screwed a lot more from losing that base than the marines are from losing theirs.
That is why i used "should" in my post. The marines have to stick together in groups, so they have to focus their forces. The aliens can be all over the place and only need to group up when they want to take a massive teamfight over an important location.
I for one know that in pre 250, trading a hive for the marine main base was common and basically always resulted in an alien win. The higher lifeforms kept their abilities until they died and you could immeditatly drop a new hive in the marine base. It is also much harder for vanilla marines to take down a hive than for vanilla skulks to kill a marine base.
I'm not saying this is bad and marines should be able to dish out 9001 structure damage with their axe, the beauty of ns is in the asymmetry of the two sides. However, making the team who relies on concentrating their forces on few objectives also responsible to hold multiple sites all over the map against the team who excels at harrassing/taking down undefended areas quickly is a bad idea imho.
NS is at it's best when the marines siege a 2nd/3rd hive and the aliens defend it ferociously. Sadly, that hardly ever happens because the marines overpower the aliens in a direct confrontation so the easier way is always just to harrass an undefended marine base. If the marines split up, it is harder for them to recycle their equipment and they lose a war of attrition.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
ya know, I just realised a few things.. For this I shall consider public play.
Aliens dont need to pay to much attention to there respawning. They automaticly get hives in there upgrade process. While eggcamp can be a problem, this is directly tied to having marines in your 'base' which is easily noticed.
Marines start with 1 ip. Either you build another fairly soon & are already behind on upgrades, or you 'should' build more lateron. Ive noticed in many games, including my own comming games, that many comms forget the 2nd ip. When it is remembered, you are already behind because the lack of manpower made you lose ground.
Ideally you want to know how many players are alive at a certain moment & how many in respawns.
Yes I know you can search the map for them and count, but I mean a way to see at a glance. Yes, you could press tab & just look.. But I mean something that reminds you, not the other way around.
Perhaps a indicator on your hud somewhere how many marines are alive and how many reinforcing?
That way you have a instant glance if you need more IPs or can keep pushing tech.
It would be cool if the flamethrower was tweaked so that it could better stave off fades (and biting lerks). I don't know how much energy the ft currently burns, but it never seems to make a difference vs. fades. I think it would be interesting to drain energy at a much higher rate (like a 100% increase) but have energy drained from the ft regen at an accelerated rate as well. This would make early pairs of ft/rifle marines more menacing towards fades, as there is actually a potential for death if the fade gets caught out. But at the same time, if the marines can't track with the flamethrower or can't quickly act upon their advantage, the fade can easily escape.
It's just a thought. Right now it seems like the ft is okay, but doesn't have anything that it is actually good at, except very situational functions (defending a base against spores and bile bomb).
I got a bit into scripting and started my own branch of the latest Beta Test mod. It's nice for some little experimenting.
Changelog:
#General
Resources
- all players start with 15 pres (was 20)
#Marines
// Cancelled, couldn't stop it from breaking the entire commander menu
// The DoT was neglectable anyway, though it did seem to stack.
Incendiary Shotgun
- researchable after regular Shotgun in Armory
- costs 15 res to research and takes 30 seconds
- bought in the Armory for 25 pres
- sets targets on fire on hit and deals damage type "flame"
- 11 damage per pellet (normal Shotgun is 10)
- fires 17 pellets and has a clipsize of 8 (same as normal Shotgun)
- has a wider spread (spread range is 8, normal is 9.5)
- has a range of 26 units (normal Shotgun is 30)
Rifle
- melee attack damage increased to 15 (was 10)
#Aliens
Biomass
- Hives can now research a 4th Biomass for 50 res in 50 seconds
- Spores are now Biomass 3
- Umbra is now Biomass 6
- Bone Shield is now Biomass 7 (not that it would be all that useful, but I was curious to see if it would change anything about the Onos' current situation)
- Xenocide is now Biomass 9
- Stomp is now Biomass 10
- Fade egg is now Biomass 8
- Onos egg is now Biomass 9
Gorge
- Clog limit increased to 15 (was 10)
- Clogs now cost 0.2 pres each
Crag
- heals up to 4 targets now (was 3)
- heals 15 HP per tick (was 10)
Lerk Spores
- damage per second is now 18 (was 20)
- cloud radius is now 2.3 (was 2.5)
- cloud lifetime is now 7 seconds (was 8)
________________________________________________________
Changes introduced in Sewlek's mod:
#General
- implemented resources for kills
#Marines
All Clip Weapons
- bullet size increased to 0.02 (was 0.018)
Rifle
- spread increased to 4 radians (was 2.8)
Light Machine Gun
- researched at Armory for 10 res in 35 seconds
- bought at Armory for 10 pres
- 10.5 damage per bullet (default Rifle is 10)
- 1.5 spread
- 0.12 weight (default Rifle is 0.13)
#Aliens
General
- respawn time increased to 11 seconds (was 10)
- pre-evolved Fade and Onos eggs are available at Biomass 9 (was 5 and 7)
Drifters
- only one Drifter can exist at a time
- is cast as ability on infestation and hatches from an egg (takes 5 seconds)
- no longer costs supply units
- resource cost increased to 5 (was 3)
- move speed increased to 11 (was 8)
Unfortunately I can't upload it for several reasons:
- The LMG model doesn't show up in game, so the weapon doesn't work at all.
- Somehow I broke the buy menu in the Armory. Debugging doesn't really work either since I don't get the game to launch with my mod other than starting it through LaunchPad.
- The "Publish" button is greyed out for me in the LaunchPad. Maybe I need to link it to Steam somehow but don't know how?
Comments
Forgive me for being so blunt, but i would think that you should care about the quality of the game in which 90% of it's player base frequently experiences as it is what draws or scares people away from ever attempting to play competitively (or at all)
@jekt I would agree, although you need spikes early game to deal with shotguns, because otherwise spores would have to be OP to compensate, as we've experienced in the past.
Considering how confusing /unfriendly lerk bite is to newer players, (and the risks comp players won't even take with it these days) I'd sooner throw it to T3.. With spores & spikes @ T1. Or at a minimum auto bite only when in range, while spiking (like how both onos attacks were combined into one)
Bite and spores at T1 (I feel like the lerk needs spores to effectivly play its harass/support role)
Spikes at T2 (lets shotguns be used to gain ground before a counter comes out)
50% umbra at T3 (I would also want it to protect against nades)
What if Exos and Onos were promoted to the role of "super units"?
Make them ONLY available as expensive drop from the commander, not for pres. That would mean that you only ever have a small amount of them on the field at the same time or at least delay their arrival long enough. In return could you them to make them actually worth being the valuable unit that both teams equally want to focus on and which is strong enough to warrant having usually only one or at best two of them on the field at a time.
Perhaps not the best units for killing players but with massive HP and more with the role of an endgame siege unit.
Drawbacks would be of course that the "cool lifeform" would no longer be easily obtainable for a majority of the players in the match and that it would create the issue of having the commander favor specific players over others, so bad players would never get to play with those toys. (Besides that everyone could still snatch the dropped Exo or Onos egg before someone else)
Plus it would be kinda hard to fit the Minigun-Fist and Railgun Exos in there, since the super unit would obviously be only the Dual Minigun Exo while the other variants were more supposed to be on par with Fades. It would not seem logical to have easy access to those lesser Exo variants for pres but not to a version that simply has one additional weapon.
Alternative idea:
Instead of being able to instantly grab a dropped Exo or buy one from the Prototype Lab, the Exo needs to be constructed like a regular structure first and can then be entered. This would create a short delay at least and allows aliens to possibly intervene.
If Exos actually had to be constructed in a special structure (a "super unit building", as it's commonly known from other RTS games) and only one Exo could be constructed at a time, then this would mean that you had a built-in delay between the arrival of multiple Exos unless the commander builds more of these structures.
I awesome this because I hate exos and onoses and I think they would be used less if this was implemented
Constructing exos however, is simply a good idea. I believe in a thing called time sinks. Like how the armory heals wayyyyy to fast
High mobility fades, who don't even really need to worry about energy to maintain high speed, and can change direction with minimal slowdown require very low HP to compensate.
I say slow the fade down and increase the energy management requirements a bit, and then increase HP (or biomass scaling) to balance out the slower speed.
I agree the lerk needs medium ranged spores, but it also most definitely needs spikes. We found that out the hard way.
Umbra is nice and fits it's role and can be adjusted to whatever Tier, but is nice on T2 i feel (gives more reason to lerk before fades)
Bite is... um... well.. i don't have a lot of nice things to say about it, design wise, lol, but it does make the class more combative i guess.
T1: bite & spike
T2: spores, ranged and transparent (marines can see through), like ns1
T3: umbra, not ranged obscures vision a lot
Imho it would be much more logical to have the ability that blocks bullets also block vision while spores are usually something you dont see at all. It would also fit the support role for the lerk to have ranged spores to harrass marines while his umbra which supports his teammates should be close to him. Bite should be sort of a last resort weapon unless you find an opportunity to kill a defenseless or distracted target.
Oh and it wasn't ranged or transparent, of course.
I do think medium ranged spores and spikes at T1 would better communicate to newer players what it's role is, prevent frustrating encounters/deaths, and prevent any OP lerking in the early game. (not that that's been a problem since it's current HP/armor values have been in place)
But the more skilled definitely enjoy their bite/spike risky combo regardless of that - i do as well but only in the early game, after that its not worth doing anything more than peeking around a corner to spray umbra or spike momentarily given it's speed, hitbox, and hp.
I know, i was there
I agree about bite being a poor design decision, but as long as spores remain cropduster-style, the lerk will need to get in close anyway, so it might as well stay to give the lerk more combat options once he gets in close (I preferred the old(er) lerk with no bite at all and shotgun burst spikes)
What failed miserably about that setup? I don't remember anything horrible happening.
Does that mean it shouldn't be tried again with 250?
No.
Quite honestly, no, I don't care at all. I cannot muster any interest in trying to solve a problem that already has multiple answers (conceding, aliens using even the tiniest speck of teamwork etc.) when the game has genuine balance issues that I'm more drawn to. All I'm advocating for is that you don't solve the problem on the expense of normal gameplay quality.
You can call me a bad person if it makes you feel better, but I'm not trying to be the Mother Teresa of NS2. And you would never say such a thing to a pubber who said he doesn't give a damn about competitive, now would you?
Doesn't make me into a hyperbole like Mother Teresa .. just makes me not selfishly want a fixed game for myself, and a broken game for others.
Conceding and teamwork are both used, btw, neither of which are a solution. (you don't see anyone suggesting conceding as a solution to the fadeball... do you?)
Anyways, this is besides the point. For the 3rd time, what "quality" is 1 CC T3 tech bringing??
Because this problem arose from the introduction of this lame mechanic, and i highly doubt whatever it brings you could not easily reproduce by shifting values to therefore have both parties profit.
The only answer that was given was "Allowing marines to get advance tech on 1 cc has given marines much more freedom for aggressive play," which is pretty vague and was not the intended purpose behind it, nor do i think this is actually the case given the timings that exos and W3 are practically researched. (i.e. never in a timeframe that would be considered "Aggressive" ??)
Here's what i think: Marines are grossly at a disadvantage in multiple ways in the current build, and if this were not the case then people would be screaming for such a fundamentally imbalanced mechanic to be changed. Map control is how you win this game, because map control determines tech and economy. Having only one side have a requirement to follow this formula is an imbalance and basically just changes the game to "Beat the clock" before marines get fully teched.
Asymmetry is amazing and should be sought for in playstyles and tech.. but the winning condition should always be equally accessible (This is why travel times to RTs and timings are considered)
The only reason this mechanic isn't seen as a gross perversion and is seen as a means to allow "more freedom" is because of the imbalanced advantage it currently affords a struggling team that averages a 30% winrate according to sponitor.
So sure, keep it for now.. but eventually once things are balanced out this mechanic will stick out like a sore thumb, (like it did in alpha/beta) even for you comp players who do not care what "quality" it currently brings to pubs.
Once again, people are trying to circumvent a problem instead of fixing it. If Exos are too strong/whatever, help Aliens deal with them, directly. Don't start stupid stuff like restricting Exos with 2 CC requirement or whatever.
TLDR: Onos needs more HP/Armor. Will that be in the August update?
In a 6 vs 6 may it still be somewhat acceptable, with only 5 marines on the field do you never want more than 2 Exos at maximum.
But from 8 players upwards do I feel like the balance shifts too much in favor of the marines. They can easily afford 4 Exos on the field or at least have some guys go Exo and have enough other guys with spare res to immediately replace any fallen Exo on the field.
Those Exos focusing fire on lifeforms decimate pretty much anything the aliens come up with before it even gets in range and can cover each others feet to eliminate one of the weak points of an Exo.
And since structure health doesn't scale with playercount, a Hive goes down in no time when 4 Exos focus on it.
Structures seem to be the weakest part in scaling anyway. Everything dies faster because more players can attack it.
But Crags don't heal any faster. And they also don't heal more than 3 things at a time, even though there are more players present on the team now. And since your supply cap doesn't scale either, you can't build more Crags to solve that issue.
Actually it would be interesting if research to a certain point become exponentially longer on 1-CC, yet drastically shortens on 2/3-CC.
Well whatever it's not like we'll get anywhere trying to balance for 2 distinct game modes (6v6 and 10v10+) using only 1 setting. Think its time for UWE to admit this isn't working and implement a dedicated pub (10v10+) and comp (6v6) mode with different balance settings.
Ummmmm, that's a great idea.
I.e. allowing players to get to play as Exo or Jetpacker more frequently, since games could often end in the past before those things got on the table or because marines often failed to secure a second tech point in pubs or hold it long enough for Exos to come out.
On the alien side can players get their most powerful unit even on 1 Hive. So the marines were pushed in a similar corner, I think.
Though retrospectively that doesn't make much sense either because aliens still need more Hives to unlock all the different playstyles for their lifeforms.
Effectively the ProtoLab on 1 CC was introduced primarily for pub play, not for comp play.
There only needs to be a scaling system for buildings and research/equipment costs
Haha only heal 3 things at a time? Crags are literally terrible.
You know, this game is asymmetrical (yeah i play that card) and the marines should not have to rely on mapcontrol to get their tech going, instead they should be pressed to get enough tres in order to get the neccesary upgrades in order to win. The aliens on the other hand should be relying on mapcontrol in order to get their hives up to research the abilities that give their higher lifeforms the edge over the marines.
It does not matter what quality technology X is bringing for situation Y you have to see the situation as a whole. Therius already tried to explain to you why putting important marine tech on a 2 cc requirement effects every part of the game. Basically, it leaves the marines always open for a counterattack on one of their CCs. The base trading in NS2 is the worst i have seen in any strategy game since it is so alien favoured. A skulk can harrass an undefended marine base twice as much as a JP marine can harass an undefended hive. This is the asymmetry and this is the problem with marines having to hold multiple techpoints and additionally having to pressure the aliens.
Unfortunately that is not really the case currently. Marines need 490 tres for a fully teched up base, including 2nd IP, 2x PG, ARC Factory and all upgrades, without Sentries. Aliens need 660 tres for 3 Hives and Biomass 9 with all upgrades, evolutions and traits and one chamber of each kind. 750 tres if you want to factor the 4th Hive with Biomass for maximum HP in. The difference is just that marines pay 2 more tres per RT than aliens.
The "problem" is probably that pretty much all maps in NS2 are made in a way that map control in form of tech points automatically also grants you the control over the resources. An alien team that manages to secure other Hive locations would win the resource fight against the 1-base marines if it wasn't for the circumstance that marines need actually less res than aliens do, since they can also recycle everything.
I wouldn't call the base trading exactly alien-favored. They are not required to hold that CC. They can rebuild all the important stuff in another base in no time. At best they need a spare Arms Lab there to not be caught off guard by losing a base and then getting crushed. But the different to aliens is that aliens lose a part of their fighting power with a Hive that they can't instantly regain because it requires a lot more construction and research time again, have to pay a steep price for and can't sufficiently prepare for because they need tech points for that.
If aliens have 2 Hives and marines have 2 CCs and both start rushing a base of the other party, then I dare to say that the aliens are screwed a lot more from losing that base than the marines are from losing theirs.
I for one know that in pre 250, trading a hive for the marine main base was common and basically always resulted in an alien win. The higher lifeforms kept their abilities until they died and you could immeditatly drop a new hive in the marine base. It is also much harder for vanilla marines to take down a hive than for vanilla skulks to kill a marine base.
I'm not saying this is bad and marines should be able to dish out 9001 structure damage with their axe, the beauty of ns is in the asymmetry of the two sides. However, making the team who relies on concentrating their forces on few objectives also responsible to hold multiple sites all over the map against the team who excels at harrassing/taking down undefended areas quickly is a bad idea imho.
NS is at it's best when the marines siege a 2nd/3rd hive and the aliens defend it ferociously. Sadly, that hardly ever happens because the marines overpower the aliens in a direct confrontation so the easier way is always just to harrass an undefended marine base. If the marines split up, it is harder for them to recycle their equipment and they lose a war of attrition.
Aliens dont need to pay to much attention to there respawning. They automaticly get hives in there upgrade process. While eggcamp can be a problem, this is directly tied to having marines in your 'base' which is easily noticed.
Marines start with 1 ip. Either you build another fairly soon & are already behind on upgrades, or you 'should' build more lateron. Ive noticed in many games, including my own comming games, that many comms forget the 2nd ip. When it is remembered, you are already behind because the lack of manpower made you lose ground.
Ideally you want to know how many players are alive at a certain moment & how many in respawns.
Yes I know you can search the map for them and count, but I mean a way to see at a glance. Yes, you could press tab & just look.. But I mean something that reminds you, not the other way around.
Perhaps a indicator on your hud somewhere how many marines are alive and how many reinforcing?
That way you have a instant glance if you need more IPs or can keep pushing tech.
It's just a thought. Right now it seems like the ft is okay, but doesn't have anything that it is actually good at, except very situational functions (defending a base against spores and bile bomb).
Unfortunately I can't upload it for several reasons:
- The LMG model doesn't show up in game, so the weapon doesn't work at all.
- Somehow I broke the buy menu in the Armory. Debugging doesn't really work either since I don't get the game to launch with my mod other than starting it through LaunchPad.
- The "Publish" button is greyed out for me in the LaunchPad. Maybe I need to link it to Steam somehow but don't know how?