Stalemates are NOT fun, but end up being the "normal"
MasterEvilAce
Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10268Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10268Members, Reinforced - Shadow
From my experience playing recently, if one side doesn't end the game within ~15 minutes, the game ends up going on for 50+ minutes.
The majority of this time is spent in a sort of "stalemate" scenario. These games are extremely frustrating because they end up being either games where fights or objective control ends up in even trades constantly, or one team is able to turtle insanely well. I've seen the turtle happen from both sides, but it's easier for marines since ARCs can take care of alien structures through walls.
Essentially, this seems to happen because once players buy/evolve, they are at their strongest. However, if you die, you lose resources that you spent, and your player is essentially "reset" to an initial power state. If both teams blow all of their resources for a "game ending" push, and they both end up wiping each other out and going even, it essentially evens the game to an equal power state (much like the start of the game.) So once this happens, both teams lose a bunch of pushing power, and you sort of end up playing the game as if it just started.
In one game I was on aliens, and we controlled 90% of the map. Almost every single resource node. This was 50 minutes into the game. For the next 20 minutes we were trying to wipe them out as they were turtling with what they had, and spending any resources on turtling. Resources came in extremely slowly, so we weren't able to evolve for an extremely long time, even with nearly every resource node on the map. We ended up winning at the 80 minute mark, but marines hadn't really done anything for the previous 30 minutes. It simply should not take that long to close out a game.
I believe the game needs to have a push for games to end sooner, to prevent this. Hour-long games are great if they're action-packed, but they're boring if one team is obviously winning but cannot end it. There should be a greater reward for controlling the map after a certain point in time. Resource nodes should give MORE resources over time. For example, after 30 minutes, a resource node should start giving more resources than normal. In a scenario where both teams are even, they will be able to buy/evolve MORE often, allowing MORE pushing power, and encourage MORE fighting. If one team controls more of the resource nodes, it will favor them much more. In the scenario I described above, we would have been able to end the game quicker, because we would have been able to afford fades/onos for the pushing power. Skulks are extremely useless at this point in the game (vs grenade/flame thrower spam into hallways), but without resources, you will spend all of your time in this form. You should not be forced to do this with 90% of the map in your control.
I compare this sort of thing to a game I play quite frequently, League of Legends. Games are on average 30-40 minutes. However, the game attempts to push games to end over-time, meaning at the 60 minute mark, if one team kills the other team, it's practically over. Games CAN last longer than an hour, but because of the way the game is set up, it becomes exceedingly difficult for one to simply drag the game out, unless both teams simply refuse to fight. A few ways it does this is increasing respawn timers, increasing gold income, and increasing the strength of the AI minion. This is much more fun/rewarding, as the tension will build as the game goes further into late-game. Both teams sort of "level out" in terms of power, and it comes down to controlling objectives and team-fighting. Whichever team makes a mistake will generally end up losing at this point in the game.
As a long-time NS1 fan, I've enjoyed my share of 2 hour games.. but they were extremely rare. In NS2, this is pretty much the regular game you'll be in, on a public server. There will be long periods of no-action and this is not fun for either side.
The majority of this time is spent in a sort of "stalemate" scenario. These games are extremely frustrating because they end up being either games where fights or objective control ends up in even trades constantly, or one team is able to turtle insanely well. I've seen the turtle happen from both sides, but it's easier for marines since ARCs can take care of alien structures through walls.
Essentially, this seems to happen because once players buy/evolve, they are at their strongest. However, if you die, you lose resources that you spent, and your player is essentially "reset" to an initial power state. If both teams blow all of their resources for a "game ending" push, and they both end up wiping each other out and going even, it essentially evens the game to an equal power state (much like the start of the game.) So once this happens, both teams lose a bunch of pushing power, and you sort of end up playing the game as if it just started.
In one game I was on aliens, and we controlled 90% of the map. Almost every single resource node. This was 50 minutes into the game. For the next 20 minutes we were trying to wipe them out as they were turtling with what they had, and spending any resources on turtling. Resources came in extremely slowly, so we weren't able to evolve for an extremely long time, even with nearly every resource node on the map. We ended up winning at the 80 minute mark, but marines hadn't really done anything for the previous 30 minutes. It simply should not take that long to close out a game.
I believe the game needs to have a push for games to end sooner, to prevent this. Hour-long games are great if they're action-packed, but they're boring if one team is obviously winning but cannot end it. There should be a greater reward for controlling the map after a certain point in time. Resource nodes should give MORE resources over time. For example, after 30 minutes, a resource node should start giving more resources than normal. In a scenario where both teams are even, they will be able to buy/evolve MORE often, allowing MORE pushing power, and encourage MORE fighting. If one team controls more of the resource nodes, it will favor them much more. In the scenario I described above, we would have been able to end the game quicker, because we would have been able to afford fades/onos for the pushing power. Skulks are extremely useless at this point in the game (vs grenade/flame thrower spam into hallways), but without resources, you will spend all of your time in this form. You should not be forced to do this with 90% of the map in your control.
I compare this sort of thing to a game I play quite frequently, League of Legends. Games are on average 30-40 minutes. However, the game attempts to push games to end over-time, meaning at the 60 minute mark, if one team kills the other team, it's practically over. Games CAN last longer than an hour, but because of the way the game is set up, it becomes exceedingly difficult for one to simply drag the game out, unless both teams simply refuse to fight. A few ways it does this is increasing respawn timers, increasing gold income, and increasing the strength of the AI minion. This is much more fun/rewarding, as the tension will build as the game goes further into late-game. Both teams sort of "level out" in terms of power, and it comes down to controlling objectives and team-fighting. Whichever team makes a mistake will generally end up losing at this point in the game.
As a long-time NS1 fan, I've enjoyed my share of 2 hour games.. but they were extremely rare. In NS2, this is pretty much the regular game you'll be in, on a public server. There will be long periods of no-action and this is not fun for either side.
Comments
It was a fun last stand for the marine team, obviously. Although the aliens suffered from lack of effective teamplay which caused the match to draw out longer than needed.
I'm sure there are some things missing from your account, but it sounds like the Commander was unaware of his late game role, and the team wasn't coordinating its movements. While team coordination is hit and miss in public games, it's pretty much required to break a turtle.
A few ideas that could have helped you take that position:
-Commander could have been using drifters to help the team push by using hallucinations, attack speed buffs, etc.
-Contamination and shifting in some whips/crags
-Using the shift to echo eggs closer to the enemy base
-Two or more Onos charging in at the same time
-Gorge support for Onos
-A lerk spraying your team with Umbra, negating 50% projectile damage on friendlies
-Better target prioritization for your team based on lifeform. Not just what structures to hit in what order, but what each life form is supposed to be doing. Onos' are wasting time by going after players, that's supposed to be handled by supporting fades and skulks.
I'm sure there are many more I can't think of that others will chime in with. But many of those ideas hinge on someone taking charge of the team, and the team listening to that person. As I stated earlier, coordination in teams is really hit and miss.
I would have had in NS2 as well, but then it crashed on me. >.>
The problem with those turtles is that they are relatively easy to break, but only if the alien team knows how to work as a team.
And teamwork is just much more intuitive on the marine side than on the alien side. Welding someone, pushing in together, focus fire on the same target, setting up a forward position while someone covers you… all things that happen pretty spontaneously and are the most intuitive thing to do.
It's also easy to direct marines and instantly reinforce a push through a Phase Gate or Beacon. Aliens take a long time to get back into the battle after they die, since they are mostly designed for hit'n'run strategies.
Aliens have different possible synergies, but they require more preparation. And since the same lifeform can have different roles, it requires the team to coordinate which role and thus strategy is actually pursued.
The Onos may just play a distracting tank role that is supposed to defend the Gorge during a Bile Bomb rush and just focus on taking out marines, rather than being supposed to tear down the marine structures itself. Or it can play the base-destroying role itself, but in this case the Gorge is required to focus more on healing than on Bile Bombing. With miscommunication may they both end up pursuing the same role.
A Lerk can be expected to give Umbra support in both cases, unless the strategy is that the Lerk is actually the one who takes care of killing marines with Spores and providing a distraction.
The commander also plays a vital role with his support capabilities. But then he actually needs to tell the aliens about his intentions, so they can count on it. And they have to realize that they need to prioritize any Flamethrower wielders in that case, so any Whip rushes and Drifter clouds are not nullified.
Marine support abilities are not really countered that hard by any alien ability, so it's not a problem on their side.
But it does not. The ability to successfully transform the winning advantage into the actual win depends on team coordination, of which the commander may or may not be part of. Of course, in optimal situation, the commander drops contamination, and shifts whips in and the team rushes in at the same moment. Unstoppable. But if the commander is not able to organize this (frequent situation in pubs, where most players even don't have a mic), three onos running and attacking the power are very hard to stop, and if a lerk lends in umbra, all the better.
However, coordination is exactly the thing pub matches lack. Everyone is running on their own, blowing pres, the commander often does not talk besides a sporadic line in the chat, and enjoys himself building a crag and spur gardens on some quiet corner of the map. Likewise, all the marines jump in exos the moment its out, run out on their own, get ambushed, back to square one with 0 pres.
Sounds like the issue was primarily an inexperienced comm and sleepy team. I see many games where the comm just hops out of the hive at late game b/c they feel they can't be useful anymore (due to inexperience with late game role).
If its truly frustrating or boring for Most of the players they would concede or quit.
Run to door.
Bonewalling onos.
Bile bombing gorge behind.
?????
Profit.
Its easier than ever to end turtles now, but recent discount means clueless aliens.
Always liked that idea. Biomass 1-8 stays the same, but 9-12 provide a much greater degree of health.
Recently I joined a match that was already going on for two hours. The aliens were held back at 1-2 Hives but kept having enough map control for 3-4 RTs being constantly up. The marines didn't really manage to push because the aliens still managed to hold onto their higher lifeforms.
At this point were the players, who have been playing the match from the very beginning, quite bored already. Shortly after I joined and aliens just lost a second Hive because nobody was really caring to go there and the old spawn system always made them appear at the other Hive. From that on the alien khammander apparently decided to just idle on 200 tres and did not rebuild anything because he wanted the game to end.
When I asked him why he wouldn't just leave the server then, his response was that he wanted to keep playing in that particular server. Imho that was quite a selfish move and he basically ruined the match for the players who might have just joined the match not so long ago. With a match going on for that long, the people at the end of the match are likely not the same as those who started it.
the devs just design the game for 6v6 with players who know when to give up
large games of newbs have always been a suboptimal experience
I hate commanders like this... Aliens can have phenomenal come-backs with just a little coordination and an experienced commander.
It would make webs much more useful, and the better bile bomb would help end turtles but without being game breaking in the early and mid game.
Bile bomb was buffed in 252, and every game often ends up being nonstop gorge rushes until one of them eventually works because of how little cost there is with that play. It's not as strong as it was in older versions, but that's because it was blatantly overpowered.
Honestly, if anything gorge cost could use a small increase in either the life form or upgrade evolutions.
No, no, no, no, no.
Gorges are strong enough, bile as well, is strong enough, please don't make it worse.
Make gorge cost 10 please.
Of the 30+ hours I have played NS2 in the last week, 85% end with alien victory.
Seems like a lot of veterans jump into rookie servers as aliens and just try and win as many matches a quick as they can vs a bunch of newb marines because that is what most new people want to play as.
Instead of complaining about not being able to finish out the game, put your mic on and step up to the plate. If the team isn't listening AT ALL then the marine team was most likely a lot worse and your team is not worth the effort. Just leave the game and hop into another one. It's actually amazing what alien teams can do with just one person communicating tactics but it seems that this rarely happens on most pub servers.
If you're on 4 hives, every RT on the map, you're swimming in Res. Drop onos eggs, having everyone go onos or those who can't afford at that push go gorge and just work together. Marine players get into these last stand situations because they are usually worse than your team. They aren't invincible just because alien players get lazy at the end.
As far as games go where trading bases and RTs for long periods of time, I actually find these fun but I might be a minority. If there is communication in the team then it is fun. I've commanded 2h 30m games before where we constantly traded tech points, exos and onos for 2 hours straight until the very end. It was one of the best public games I've ever played in any shooter but I can see why people don't like it.
Ew...
I really doubt a player that is frustrated, bored and not having fun would still continue to play. damned if you concede, damned if you don't?
There are balance reasons for this, but one reason for the skewed winrate is exactly as you said - new players want to play as marines, because it's familiar to them and easier to learn. So they all stack marines, forcing more experienced players to go as the aliens. I personally have played a ton of aliens lately because of this. I've sometimes been on marines and willingly switched to aliens when I saw a new player who wanted to play marines.
Once this wave of new players thins out, as they either leave or become experienced enough to play aliens too, I expect things to level out slightly - maybe not to 50-50 but 60-40ish