Reinforced program would benefit from stretch goals

WispWisp Join Date: 2007-12-18 Member: 63211Members, Reinforced - Diamond
I have been thinking about the reinforced program, the ways in which it works well and doesn't work well, and how it can be improved. I think it's a clever idea. It lets really dedicated members of the community support the developers. I think it could use some changes to stimulate further donations from members of the community.

Number one, I think advertising it as a reverse-kickstarter is unwise. I'm not sure if this was UWE's intent, but I've heard many people refer to the program that way. While I'd like to think that people are participating out of philanthropy, the more likely truth is that people want the rewards and future content. Understanding why people donate is important, because it can help the developers raise more money. Stretch goals are a means of communicating exactly what people are donating for.

UWE would essentially be laying out what you are paying for. They have said that $550,000 equals the cost of the entire Reinforced update. But how much does Biodome cost? Let's say it costs $200,000 to produce. Make that a stretch goal on the site. If we reach $200,000, there will be a new map. Reach $300,000 and there will be some other new feature.

There's the obvious response to this that the game's development is fluid, features may be cut, some may be added later - therefore they can't layout their plan exactly. I think that's reasonable. But if you look at the stretch goals for crowdfunded games like Star Citizen, Torment, Project Eternity, etc. I think you can reasonably conclude that the stretch goals have played a large part in raising interest and donations. Having goals beyond $550,000 could be a motivator for donating as well. Perhaps at $1 million, UWE could hire additional contractors to help produce another map sooner. I'm just spit-balling ideas.

Many individuals on the forums have mentioned the need for additional backer tiers. I agree with that idea as well.

I think I can speak for most people here when I say that we all want to see Natural Selection 2 being improved and receiving new content well into the future. I'm excited at the prospect of seeing Natural Selection 2 five years from now, as a fully mature multiplayer game. But for that to happen, the game needs a consistent revenue stream that can last.

This brings me to my final point, which is that I don't believe this program is a good long term solution for the game. Dedicated fans may donate $75 once, but every six months? That seems unreasonable. I think a better long term fit is purchasing cosmetic items for a smaller sum, say $2-10 based on the item's value. Games like Killing Floor have made a lot of money doing this. There could be more skins for the Marines, more skins for Alien lifeforms, and perhaps even weapon skins for the Marines. Of course, everything would be cosmetic and would not affect gameplay.

Perhaps in an ideal world, we would all play in a "pure" environment without skins. But I think the reality is that games cost money to make and the money has to come from somewhere. What's the method by which the most money can be raised with the least impact on the people who don't want to pay?

Comments

  • Maxx11_v2.0Maxx11_v2.0 Join Date: 2012-11-18 Member: 172221Members
    edited September 2013
    What your suggesting isn't as much a stretch goal as it is a microtransaction system based around cosmetic changes. I do think it could work, if done right. Development costs could be next to none if creation of premium skins etc. would be outsourced to the community. All the devs would have to do is approve and implement accepted submissions. The community might not be too keen on this idea initially though. However, seeing how the shadow pack is selling I wouldn't be surprised if people warmed up to eventually.
  • WispWisp Join Date: 2007-12-18 Member: 63211Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    What your suggesting isn't as much a stretch goal as it is a microtransaction system based around cosmetic changes. I do think it could work, if done right. Development costs could be next to none if creation of premium skins etc. would be outsourced to the community. All the devs would have to do is approve and implement accepted submissions. The community might not be too keen on this idea initially though. However, seeing how the shadow pack is selling I wouldn't be surprised if people warmed up to eventually.

    I was making two separate points.

    The first point was that UWE could raise more money by introducing stretch goals into the Reinforced program.

    The second point was that long-term, the a kickstarter system can't support the game. It's built around large donations from a core group of followers. They need to tap into a larger market of people to truly sustain the game. So cheaper cosmetic items are the obvious answer.
    Ulmont wrote:
    Personally I'd rather see UWE move on to a new title than start churning out cosmetic DLC. As somebody who does texture work for a hobby it always strikes me a cheep to charge for cosmetics, and having a billion variants of everything running around would ruin NS2's gorgeous art style.

    I don't understand this mentality. Why would you pay $75 to support this game, which includes cosmetic items, and then say you would rather have no updates if there are going to be cosmetics.

    I find skins to be completely unobtrusive. In fact, most of the skins so far looks pretty damn cool.
  • HobocopHobocop Join Date: 2010-11-23 Member: 75226Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Nothing wrong with optional cosmetics as long as they don't obstruct each character's distinctive silhouette.
  • WhiteWeaselWhiteWeasel Join Date: 2012-11-25 Member: 173197Members
    edited September 2013
    Wisp wrote: »
    I don't understand this mentality. Why would you pay $75 to support this game, which includes cosmetic items, and then say you would rather have no updates if there are going to be cosmetics.

    I find skins to be completely unobtrusive. In fact, most of the skins so far looks pretty damn cool.
    He's not paying $75 for some apparel to look cool. The rewards are just little perks to show others that he contributed, and aren't the real reason to pay that much. He could probably care less about the skins, he payed $75 to show that he loves the game and wishes to aid in it's development and success. Helping the game become better is reward enough for him.
  • ZEROibisZEROibis Join Date: 2009-10-30 Member: 69176Members, Constellation
    How about for every 500,000 they double performance... they would make millions lol
  • WispWisp Join Date: 2007-12-18 Member: 63211Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    Wisp wrote: »
    I don't understand this mentality. Why would you pay $75 to support this game, which includes cosmetic items, and then say you would rather have no updates if there are going to be cosmetics.

    I find skins to be completely unobtrusive. In fact, most of the skins so far looks pretty damn cool.
    He's not paying $75 for some apparel to look cool. The rewards are just little perks to show others that he contributed, and aren't the real reason to pay that much. He could probably care less about the skins, he payed $75 to show that he loves the game and wishes to aid in it's development and success. Helping the game become better is reward enough for him.

    He's paying money to support further development, which includes cosmetics. This is just the same as buying cosmetics to support the game. The order is just reversed.
  • piratedavepiratedave Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148561Members
    When i read the Reinforced post .... it felt like UWE was saying to everyone ... we spent $550 000 to give you this free update, now we want to make up for these losses, if we dont make $550 000 from your donations, we will stop working on NS2.

    If i donate ... what will that donation be used for ? I dont want to donate if its just going to be used to make a new game, im only interested in NS2. So far it looks like UWE wont reach $500 000, does that mean all the donations so far will be spent on a new game ?

    What further development will go into NS2 if the goal is reached ? will we finally get a matchmaking/balance system ? what about sabot ? is that still coming ? will we get a proper demo record feature ? will mods finally stop breaking all the time ?

    so many questions :X
  • SammeySammey Join Date: 2012-06-14 Member: 153266Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    IF they move onto a new game it will probably also be on Spark, so indirectly they'll continue working on NS2 because the engine and tools will improve!
  • GISPGISP Battle Gorge Denmark Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27460Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Gold, Subnautica Playtester, Forum staff
    The streach goal is to continue development of NS2, eg. New giant contentpatches. (Free DLC). Otherwise it will be bug fixes and finetuning of the game as it is now. (Continued support, but no more weapontypes, skins, maps, alien races or abilities).
    If they goals isnt met, theyll probaly move on to the next IP, so UWE would be able to get some food on the table and pay the bills and stuff.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited September 2013
    The purpose of the Reinforcement Program is not to support specific new content, it is to give Natural Selection 2 players who appreciate Reinforced the opportunity to pay for it. As such including promises of specific new content based on contribution levels is not appropriate.

    The success or otherwise of the Reinforcement Program will inform UWE's decision about whether to continue to support NS2 full time. Success is not necessarily measured as being a hit or miss on the $550,000 target. There are levels of success that would influence us in moving in different directions.

    Given the increase in sales seen during the release of Reinforced and the generous support provided (to date) by 2,365 contributors, it is probable that we will choose a middle way between ending full time development of NS2 and creating a new batch of NS2 content, a la Gorgeous or Reinforced. It is, however, early days and no decision has yet been made.
  • jolonne5jolonne5 Join Date: 2013-08-27 Member: 187103Members
    It sais "Support ongoing NS2 development! Join the Reinforcement Program" how can you say it is not support specific new content?
  • darkhunt333darkhunt333 Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165414Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2013
    Hugh wrote: »
    The purpose of the Reinforcement Program is not to support specific new content, it is to give Natural Selection 2 players who appreciate Reinforced the opportunity to pay for it. As such including promises of specific new content based on contribution levels is not appropriate.

    The success or otherwise of the Reinforcement Program will inform UWE's decision about whether to continue to support NS2 full time. Success is not necessarily measured as being a hit or miss on the $550,000 target. There are levels of success that would influence us in moving in different directions.

    Given the increase in sales seen during the release of Reinforced and the generous support provided (to date) by 2,365 contributors, it is probable that we will choose a middle way between ending full time development of NS2 and creating a new batch of NS2 content, a la Gorgeous or Reinforced. It is, however, early days and no decision has yet been made.

    Gorge with sun glasses. It's the only solution.
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    jolonne5 wrote: »
    It sais "Support ongoing NS2 development! Join the Reinforcement Program" how can you say it is not support specific new content?
    Because the keyword there is "specific". We are asking for general support for future updates, not asking for donations to support specific features, like as a crazy example, adding a rocket launcher to the game. If we decide that a rocket launcher does not work for the game, after promising that it would be added, then a lot of people who donated money towards that feature would be upset.

    So, just think of it as money going towards fixes, polish, and general improvements to the game, which may or may not include large new features at some point down the road.
  • CaptivaCaptiva Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187588Members
    edited September 2013
    Glad to finally get some solid feedback on what the money will go to if the goal is not reached... Def glad to hear it will go towards NS2.

    While new games are fun,
    NS2 is still ripe for more development, and moving on now would leave the game feeling incomplete to me. It still has good graphics and a solid player base.

    Big part of problem with NS2 is nobody knowing about it. I never even noticed it prior to the Free Weekend.

    So As long as things go good (for me money wise), you guys got at least another 40 bucks or more coming your way from me.
    So keep up the good work and thanks for the responses on NS2's future.
  • duvelduvel Join Date: 2004-02-09 Member: 26318Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    it's all about the engine, not the game.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    That is a terrible idea. Goals should only reward extras, and should not restrict main parts of the game.
  • WispWisp Join Date: 2007-12-18 Member: 63211Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    Hugh wrote: »
    The purpose of the Reinforcement Program is not to support specific new content, it is to give Natural Selection 2 players who appreciate Reinforced the opportunity to pay for it. As such including promises of specific new content based on contribution levels is not appropriate.

    The success or otherwise of the Reinforcement Program will inform UWE's decision about whether to continue to support NS2 full time. Success is not necessarily measured as being a hit or miss on the $550,000 target. There are levels of success that would influence us in moving in different directions.

    Given the increase in sales seen during the release of Reinforced and the generous support provided (to date) by 2,365 contributors, it is probable that we will choose a middle way between ending full time development of NS2 and creating a new batch of NS2 content, a la Gorgeous or Reinforced. It is, however, early days and no decision has yet been made.

    I don't feel like this was properly communicated to the community. I donated money with the expectation that it would pay for future content updates, assuming that the $550,000 is reached. You said in the reinforced program video, "decide if major free content expansions continue." So how are promises of new content not appropriate?

    Isn't that the whole point of crowd funding?

    It's why I backed Star Citizen and Satellite Reign.
  • UlmontUlmont Join Date: 2011-10-02 Member: 125211Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    To rephrase what Hugh said;

    If the Reinforcement Program is successful, UWE will continue to develop content for NS2 full time; this will generally mean fixes, optimizations, balance, and - yes - new content. Because of the nature of development, they can't promise what that content will be (I cite the Tazer, for would-be doubters) with certainty; what they can do, however, is promise to continue to provide content. If its not successful, they'll continue to support it, but it will no longer have first priority, and most likely won't see big updates like Gorilla, Gorgeous, etc. Depending on the level of success, they might do something in between.

    In short, 'If we promise a new weapon, and it turns out that including that would be a terrible idea for whatever reason we would be forced to renege on that promise, and we don't want to be in that situation; so we promise additional support and content, rather than any one specific thing.'
  • hartrafthartraft Join Date: 2010-07-16 Member: 72468Members
    Wisp wrote: »
    Hugh wrote: »
    The purpose of the Reinforcement Program is not to support specific new content, it is to give Natural Selection 2 players who appreciate Reinforced the opportunity to pay for it. As such including promises of specific new content based on contribution levels is not appropriate.

    The success or otherwise of the Reinforcement Program will inform UWE's decision about whether to continue to support NS2 full time. Success is not necessarily measured as being a hit or miss on the $550,000 target. There are levels of success that would influence us in moving in different directions.

    Given the increase in sales seen during the release of Reinforced and the generous support provided (to date) by 2,365 contributors, it is probable that we will choose a middle way between ending full time development of NS2 and creating a new batch of NS2 content, a la Gorgeous or Reinforced. It is, however, early days and no decision has yet been made.

    I don't feel like this was properly communicated to the community. I donated money with the expectation that it would pay for future content updates, assuming that the $550,000 is reached. You said in the reinforced program video, "decide if major free content expansions continue." So how are promises of new content not appropriate?

    Isn't that the whole point of crowd funding?

    It's why I backed Star Citizen and Satellite Reign.



    I am pretty certain they key word here is still "specific" If they successfuly reach the goal, or even half way successfully, there will most likely be enw content. They just don't have "specific"content in mind at the moment.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2013
    If there's one problem with the Reinforced program from what I've seen, it's that the entry-level packages aren't appealing enough. I see far more Shadow icons than I do all the others combined, which sounds impressive, but really it just means I rarely see Supporter/Silver/Gold/Diamond. Look at any Kickstarter and you'll see the opposite - most people get the first or second offering and it adds up. It's because the skins are what everybody wants, and the Shadow pack skins are the only ones that are dramatically different than default. I think it would have been better to make those cheaper, and put a smaller in-game reward on the $75 tier that is cool enough for a devoted fan(who is not buying it for the value proposition anyway) but not a big deal to most people.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    Considering that the main menu blurb says "Reinforcement Program, gain access to ingame rewards and support NS2" I imagine they know whose money they are fishing for.
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