Sun Tzu said...
delta78
Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178131Members
Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178131Members
... this game IS BROKEN! (He-he)
Joke aside, I'm here to tell what I was thinking about after commanding both sides and how it feels, after reading some quotes from the famous book The Art of War by the Chinese general Sun Tzu. In his philosophy, war is deception. War is about moving the enemy, and not being moved by him. War is about taking minimal damage, while doing large amounts to the enemy.
So, what is the big point to bring this out? The thing is Aliens are perfectly suited to follow the teachings of the book and actually put those truths into the real game.
Deception: Aliens have camo, shade, shadow clones hallucinations, spores that actually block line of sight. They are masters of deceptions. You can have one skulk bring fear in the hearts of marines, as if there were a lot more of them. 'Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.' How many times the oni or the fade just turned around, after you chased them, and be killed like no pony's business? I've seen this too many times with the gorges, who seem weak at first but then via deception you get into their carefully laid trap. Or a retreating onos, who leads the chasers into a trap of fades and lerks.
'Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.' Skulks are the perfect hit and run units. They are the bane of the commander, because they'll strike your weak positions, when you are not looking or committing too much of your force to one push, which leads to the next quote:
'If his forces are united, separate them.' Every time I, as a commander, decided to push one part of them the map, leaving only one or two guys to defend our RT's on the other side, the situation quickly turns in favor to the Aliens. Yeah, the marines could be very successful with gaining more land but with the cost of map control and time, and we all know that time here is essential. If an attack prolongs to much, then the team moral goes down and it hurts the marine game.
'The expert in battle moves the enemy, and is not moved by him.' Aliens are doing it constantly by biting RT's. You always need to send a marine or marines to recapture the resource nods. Or you could send MAC's to do this but they tend to find some nasty specimens, that quickly turn your hard working robots into smoking piles of metal. It hurts the marines a lot and holds their advance. However, I've seen many good tasty human teams do this too. Pity that you need a really well oiled android team to do this or you'll soon find yourself loosing this game. ( referring the tactic of guiding the enemy )
'To know your enemy, you must become your enemy.' This goes to the new players, who always charge the blue side of the ready room, thinking they know how to deal with those pesky aliens with their trust worthy riffles. The effect is quite the opposite.
'Attack is the secret of defense, defense is the planning of an attack.' Two words: Gorge Rushes. The aliens can wait for the right moment and then attack the unprotected base. The same thing can not be said for the marines because every second spend defending, means more time for the aliens to mount a counter attack. Marines must be always aggressive or lose their footholds.
'Throw your soldiers into positions whence there is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight.' This is an absolute law, when your fellow marines can't break the alien defenses. They can't go back because we'll lose the ground and turn the tides. If they push forward, they'll die. They just poke around the corner, fire a few warning shots and go behind the safety line. So, to break enemy defense, you'll need siege equipment. The moment the aliens spot the ARC's, is the moment when they'll be forced to counter attack. It creates a situation, where the aliens might overrun your forces because you are not living them any other choice. Though they might not attack your positions but the heart, the HQ, thus resulting in base trade and we all know how it ends for the marines. You either force a beacon and lose your momentum or pay the consequences. This is also one more example how to move the marine team. It also can be done with minimum force to achieve great effect.
There are a lot more interesting quotes, which could be used in the game but I think I've made my point.
Now, if you have managed to survive the wall-o-text the conclusion is this: the aliens will always have more victories than marines because they can utilize The Art of War to almost supreme excellence. ( though supreme excellence is to win without fighting :P ) The marines can and should follow it too but the thing is, if your marines are not 40% rambo, 40% robocop and only 20% derpy, then it's really hard to follow everything to the point. Aliens are just born for hit and run, which is the best tactic to date. No conventional armies have beaten guerrilla forces. If I have to make an analogue, I'd say that Aliens are Viet Cong and the marines are USA/French armies in the Vietnam war. Just like in real life, TSF humans use big arsenals and brute force to win, taking territory step by step but the speed, maneuverability and the 'hit and run' nature of the aliens will always be better than slower moving firepower.
Also let's see this quotes: 'If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.'
'Treat your men as you would your own beloved sons. And they will follow you into the deepest valley.'
The first one is self-explanatory but the second one says a lot. Being friendly to others and not act like a jerk, will win you the hearts of the players, thus resulting in funner and more exciting mathces. Too many times I've seen old timers being rude to new players. Many of those 'pro' players say that every newbwie must GTFO and find a green server. The new player does not give a damn, which server he went in first. What he wants is to play the game and instead of being hurled like a bag of rotten potatoes, maybe we need to guide them to become better. When I started playing, I too was under such abuse but I learned to become better and actually surpassed those little raging birds.
As a final conclusion, you should read Sun Tzu's The Art of War or at least some quotes like me. Players who want to be good commanders should try using this beautiful philosophy in a real game.
Divide and Conquer, Live by the code of honor.
V_ Live long and prosper!
*Beams Out*
Joke aside, I'm here to tell what I was thinking about after commanding both sides and how it feels, after reading some quotes from the famous book The Art of War by the Chinese general Sun Tzu. In his philosophy, war is deception. War is about moving the enemy, and not being moved by him. War is about taking minimal damage, while doing large amounts to the enemy.
So, what is the big point to bring this out? The thing is Aliens are perfectly suited to follow the teachings of the book and actually put those truths into the real game.
Deception: Aliens have camo, shade, shadow clones hallucinations, spores that actually block line of sight. They are masters of deceptions. You can have one skulk bring fear in the hearts of marines, as if there were a lot more of them. 'Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.' How many times the oni or the fade just turned around, after you chased them, and be killed like no pony's business? I've seen this too many times with the gorges, who seem weak at first but then via deception you get into their carefully laid trap. Or a retreating onos, who leads the chasers into a trap of fades and lerks.
'Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.' Skulks are the perfect hit and run units. They are the bane of the commander, because they'll strike your weak positions, when you are not looking or committing too much of your force to one push, which leads to the next quote:
'If his forces are united, separate them.' Every time I, as a commander, decided to push one part of them the map, leaving only one or two guys to defend our RT's on the other side, the situation quickly turns in favor to the Aliens. Yeah, the marines could be very successful with gaining more land but with the cost of map control and time, and we all know that time here is essential. If an attack prolongs to much, then the team moral goes down and it hurts the marine game.
'The expert in battle moves the enemy, and is not moved by him.' Aliens are doing it constantly by biting RT's. You always need to send a marine or marines to recapture the resource nods. Or you could send MAC's to do this but they tend to find some nasty specimens, that quickly turn your hard working robots into smoking piles of metal. It hurts the marines a lot and holds their advance. However, I've seen many good tasty human teams do this too. Pity that you need a really well oiled android team to do this or you'll soon find yourself loosing this game. ( referring the tactic of guiding the enemy )
'To know your enemy, you must become your enemy.' This goes to the new players, who always charge the blue side of the ready room, thinking they know how to deal with those pesky aliens with their trust worthy riffles. The effect is quite the opposite.
'Attack is the secret of defense, defense is the planning of an attack.' Two words: Gorge Rushes. The aliens can wait for the right moment and then attack the unprotected base. The same thing can not be said for the marines because every second spend defending, means more time for the aliens to mount a counter attack. Marines must be always aggressive or lose their footholds.
'Throw your soldiers into positions whence there is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight.' This is an absolute law, when your fellow marines can't break the alien defenses. They can't go back because we'll lose the ground and turn the tides. If they push forward, they'll die. They just poke around the corner, fire a few warning shots and go behind the safety line. So, to break enemy defense, you'll need siege equipment. The moment the aliens spot the ARC's, is the moment when they'll be forced to counter attack. It creates a situation, where the aliens might overrun your forces because you are not living them any other choice. Though they might not attack your positions but the heart, the HQ, thus resulting in base trade and we all know how it ends for the marines. You either force a beacon and lose your momentum or pay the consequences. This is also one more example how to move the marine team. It also can be done with minimum force to achieve great effect.
There are a lot more interesting quotes, which could be used in the game but I think I've made my point.
Now, if you have managed to survive the wall-o-text the conclusion is this: the aliens will always have more victories than marines because they can utilize The Art of War to almost supreme excellence. ( though supreme excellence is to win without fighting :P ) The marines can and should follow it too but the thing is, if your marines are not 40% rambo, 40% robocop and only 20% derpy, then it's really hard to follow everything to the point. Aliens are just born for hit and run, which is the best tactic to date. No conventional armies have beaten guerrilla forces. If I have to make an analogue, I'd say that Aliens are Viet Cong and the marines are USA/French armies in the Vietnam war. Just like in real life, TSF humans use big arsenals and brute force to win, taking territory step by step but the speed, maneuverability and the 'hit and run' nature of the aliens will always be better than slower moving firepower.
Also let's see this quotes: 'If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.'
'Treat your men as you would your own beloved sons. And they will follow you into the deepest valley.'
The first one is self-explanatory but the second one says a lot. Being friendly to others and not act like a jerk, will win you the hearts of the players, thus resulting in funner and more exciting mathces. Too many times I've seen old timers being rude to new players. Many of those 'pro' players say that every newbwie must GTFO and find a green server. The new player does not give a damn, which server he went in first. What he wants is to play the game and instead of being hurled like a bag of rotten potatoes, maybe we need to guide them to become better. When I started playing, I too was under such abuse but I learned to become better and actually surpassed those little raging birds.
As a final conclusion, you should read Sun Tzu's The Art of War or at least some quotes like me. Players who want to be good commanders should try using this beautiful philosophy in a real game.
Divide and Conquer, Live by the code of honor.
V_ Live long and prosper!
*Beams Out*
Comments
I only need to know one thing, where they are.
That one could go to both sides.
she wasnt a marine
That's an exo, not a marine.
She got an exo, not even a dual either.
Sure. It is a dual fist exo!
You are to close minded my friend. The rules can very well be applied to both parties as deception is not just in a material sense. For example, a distraction is in a way a deception.
Don't get me wrong, please. Only a true aggressive team with good players can move the alien team, like they move the marines, when harassing the Extractors. From my impressions of the games I had, in which even teams played against each other, the alien team dictated the course of the match until marine could get jets and exos. Then it's their turn, though that's not always the case cause the aliens can make some nasty base rushes and it depends on what tech and life forms are on the field.
Whatever, I know in what I believe and I don't give damn, if you think I'm bad or anything, because everything I know about the game comes from experience and that no pony can take from me. Ultimately, with this thread, I tried to inspire people to maybe look into the quotes and maybe start commanding better. You could say that this is my response for the commander thread on the same page.
I was gonna read this, but then you said anypony. Goodbye now.
teched up marines keep pace pretty well too. The amount of damage a single JP flamer marine can do to an alien base in what seems like almost no time is shocking, especially if he is able to capitalize on a push at an alternate hive so he is all alone.
The problem is that marines are almost never aggressive enough. Likewise Aliens are often too aggressive. Yesterday I was comm'ing and the entire marine team was in System Way pointing with a phase. We had Nano, Pipe and Cargo (our starting hive). I wanted to push the rest of their map and get the marines out of position by biting res everywhere, and then coordinate a push once they were out of position, but one loud (And admittedly good) skulk kept yelling over the mic we needed to take System. He kept getting groups of 3 to 4 skulks and gorges and would run directly into System via Y junction. Most would die on the way in, they would get the gate down to 30% and then be wiped, even with enzyme, storm and mucus. Because the Marines were always expecting us... needless to say we lost through a long steady battle of attrition.
So I think the key to doing well in this game has less to do with Sun Tzu's advice on battle and more to do with the beginning of the book. About raising an army, about instilling discipline and respect. This is really hard, and something that can be really frustrating in a Pub. So I guess I am saying, as a Comm, the hardest part is not planning your strategy, sometimes, it is having soldiers that are willing to help you affect that strategy.
Called it! Now wheres my 10 bucks
Aliens do seem to have the more varied and fun toolkit dont they? What with multiple highly distinct lifeforms and a several support buildings. Still, the things in the art of war can apply to a clever marine team just as well.
Power Loader, not even an Exo. Power Loaders are too slow for this game... they are heavy lifting only
yeah, at least it has room for your legs
When people say marines have to be more aggressive, what they mean is they have to go rambo behind enemy lines and do damage. That is not aggression, that is guerilla warfare. Marines should not be able to do that effectively in order to keep the strategic balance.
I also think that most maps are favored towards the alien (sun tzu) strategy. Generally, there is a lack of key locations on the map as in most of the time there is a way around.
When it comes to locking down key loacations, it baffles me that aliens have an easier time fortifying a location than marines. One gorge, his 3 hydras and a bunch of clogs is enough to prevent a lot of marines from advancing for a very low res cost.
@Al_Bobo, you actually have a very valid point here. From my experience, there is a lack of people who like to command. Why? Because the commander always gets blamed when something goes wrong and the soldiers talk back. A good general like sun tzu would repeat and explain his orders once and who does not follow gets punished. This is not possible as the current commander. Players are not really dependent on their commanders, they can get kills just fine on their own. They buy their own weapons/lifeforms, the commander is more of a supporting function. THIS is what makes the commander job so unfulfilling for many. If no one is going to listen to you, you might as well have fun and shoot stuff yourself.
Welcome to natural selection 2... aliens are the next step in evolution (specifically breed to kill marines and win the war). Marines are simply fighting for their survival. Hence the alien win rate. Speaks to what would happen in real life I suppose if aliens ever did invade us. :P