i will be very pleased and surprised if it is in fact "the same" but i suspect, for example, where there used to be a ladder there is now a long ass ramp. shame, that was one of the most intense points of action and ambush - the bottom and top of that ladder from rine start to triad.
*fingers crossed for an early release!*
You can see at the 23 second mark in the video that the ladder going down to Triad has been changed to a stairway. They had to make this change because it would be absolutely absurd to see Gorges and Onos climbing that ladder like they used to do in NS1 - it was silly looking then and would look worse now. I don't understand all the grumbling on this thread - I'm psyched for this map and it looks like Remedy and the crew did a fantastic job from what we can see so far. IMO this looks like it could be the best looking map I've seen for NS2 so far. There are more (early) pics on Remedy's WIP thread in the mapping forum for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. It was obvious from the quality that he had shown in the WIP that the UWE devs had grabbed Remedy to make it an official map. That dude has some serious talent and I hope they have him make more maps.
i will be very pleased and surprised if it is in fact "the same" but i suspect, for example, where there used to be a ladder there is now a long ass ramp. shame, that was one of the most intense points of action and ambush - the bottom and top of that ladder from rine start to triad.
*fingers crossed for an early release!*
You can see at the 23 second mark in the video that the ladder going down to Triad has been changed to a stairway. They had to make this change because it would be absolutely absurd to see Gorges and Onos climbing that ladder like they used to do in NS1 - it was silly looking then and would look worse now. I don't understand all the grumbling on this thread - I'm psyched for this map and it looks like Remedy and the crew did a fantastic job from what we can see so far. IMO this looks like it could be the best looking map I've seen for NS2 so far. There are more (early) pics on Remedy's WIP thread in the mapping forum for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. It was obvious from the quality that he had shown in the WIP that the UWE devs had grabbed Remedy to make it an official map. That dude has some serious talent and I hope they have him make more maps.
I'm almost 100% sure Remedy did not work on this current state of the map we see now and is still walking around in the jungle somewhere discovering his inner self, reaching enlightenment etc. His vision was always more minimalistic and true to the ns1 version, as you will see in his WIP versions.
Enter Jake, Oli, Michael, Marc and Andrew from the UWE mapping team.
The mapping skill and detail is really truly amazing, but its definitely not minimalistic and gameplay minded. Just look at that screenshot you posted. Why are there glass windowed (even worse than the holey ones) railings down perfectly good set of stairs that have wall backings. We all know how much railings like to troll when it comes to bullet collision, movement, and the like. As far as i see, it just creates space to potentially get stuck and impede walljump.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
@elodea
I'm no mapper, but..
In regards to complicated geometry, the visual impact can remain without impacting gameplay with proper care...
Getting intricate geometry to allow smooth traversal is more than possible and done very frequently, but i do agree that there are times when this is not done well enough or even considered thoroughly. (Hydroanalysis railings)
Those glass railings can be there just for looks (take the middle one out!!) and share collision with the wall so as not to impede walljumping whatsoever?
Minimalist designs that you speak of were never advertised in this game despite it being a sequel to a game that did - not even from the beginning. We had crates, elaborate props, dynamic lighting, and complicated geometry from the get go.. a far cry from the engine limitation derived blank hallways of NS1. They also are not used in any modern games? Even the far end of minimalist map design games like Warsow have roofs, crates, vents, pipes that are traversed.
Did NS1 maps provide easier tracking and easier movement? Yes. Was it easier to balance? Yes. Should the game be easier by using that method?... that's a tougher one to answer and i would argue no..
The game should not be made easier by holding back on practical implementation of environments.
I remember picking out a pixel in Q2DM1 being far easier than picking out that camping camo'd sniper hundreds of meters away in the trees of White Pass in BC2.. That doesn't make Q2DM1 a better design or a worse design.. its just the natural evolution of gaming. Technology has allowed us to move onto more practical and realistic environments.. that therefore provide more of a challenge.
So why go that route if you do not have to? Why advocate for gray wall gaming? This should be an accepted natural progression of games.. environments simply become more beautiful and more complicated with new technology. And as long as i see players flying through maps, walljumping just fine through every single complicated prop ridden room.. I really don't think we have any reason to go back to those visually bland hallways.
But that's all my opinion..
I'm almost 100% sure Remedy did not work on this current state of the map we see now and is still walking around in the jungle somewhere discovering his inner self, reaching enlightenment etc. His vision was always more minimalistic and true to the ns1 version, as you will see in his WIP versions.
Remedy was involved in the development of the map for a long time until he fell off the face of the earth, and it was always assumed he would still continue developing the map after it became official, but he just disappeared one day and never came back, so the development of the map was left to us.
To match Remedy with the word "minimalistic" is an oxymoron. Eclipse in an unfinished state managed to reach more polygon faces than a finished version of descent, a much larger map. Currently we have reverted a lot of remedy's changes to the map, which did a lot to move away from the ns1 design of the map, which I believe were unnecessary changes, and so things have moved a bit away from his vision of the map. The map still retains some of what remedy did, and definitely represents a lot of his hard work, but your insinuation that the map in the ns2 developers hands will somehow result in losing the spirit of the original, is misguided, as we have done a lot to make the map closer to the original after remedy disappeared.
I'm almost 100% sure Remedy did not work on this current state of the map we see now and is still walking around in the jungle somewhere discovering his inner self, reaching enlightenment etc. His vision was always more minimalistic and true to the ns1 version, as you will see in his WIP versions.
Remedy was involved in the development of the map for a long time until he fell off the face of the earth, and it was always assumed he would still continue developing the map after it became official, but he just disappeared one day and never came back, so the development of the map was left to us.
To match Remedy with the word "minimalistic" is an oxymoron. Eclipse in an unfinished state managed to reach more polygon faces than a finished version of descent, a much larger map. Currently we have reverted a lot of remedy's changes to the map, which did a lot to move away from the ns1 design of the map, which I believe were unnecessary changes, and so things have moved a bit away from his vision of the map. The map still retains some of what remedy did, and definitely represents a lot of his hard work, but your insinuation that the map in the ns2 developers hands will somehow result in losing the spirit of the original, is misguided, as we have done a lot to make the map closer to the original after remedy disappeared.
Two things really.
1) I mean minimalism from the gameplay perspective, not the mapping perspective. You could have 1 flat surface made out of 9000 polygon faces and it'd still be for all intents and purposes minimalistic. You only have to look at the screenshots posted in the ns2_eclipse map thread to see how clean, uncluttered, and clear the spacing was. Obviously i would love to actually look at the new ns2_eclipse, compare screenshots and have a more informed opinion but I can't. I'm only posting my concerns based on what's been released, and am aware that those concerns could very well be incorrect for the majority of the map.
2) I didn't say anything about the 'spirit' of the original. Whether or not 'minimalism', or the current eclipse design, captures the 'spirit' of the original is not something I think is worth discussing since interpretation is always just that. I am also very well aware that remedy did try to heavily modify the maintenance hive area and for good reason. Every other textured area of the map was faithful (dimension and geometry wise). Easy on the eyes, with simple texturing, clear lines, spacing and walljump flow. http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2057663/#Comment_2057663
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited November 2013
@elodea
Those sections are still like that, whether they have been changed by the new mappers or not, the flow remains the same.
(cant speak on that laser section though, haven't had that in game yet)
And not to point fingers, but you actually were speaking from a minimalist mapping perspective when you said "i'm more concerned with the overcomplex geometry and props than the lighting that was shown."
Remedy loved his rounded corners
TBH, i still see issues with the NS1 layout being used in NS2 when we play it internally.. the frequency of extremely narrow corridors and chokepoints as well as where the aliens start having the largest impact on the direction of the round over any other map layout. I'd be okay if it wasn't always "faithful (dimension and geometry wise)"
I don't know much about mapping, let alone anything about polygons in the maps. But why can't the new maps run fantastic and look decent, slowly look better over time, while running top notch. Instead of looking fantastic and running like garbage at first, then slowly trying to make it run better, if at all.
I'm really liking what we've seen of the new version. I don't feel the changes were unnecessary and come out tasteful and will benefit play.
@Warmonger
Not just because it looked silly as hell but while they offered some intense chokepoints for some sweet fights I think it hindered things too much most of the time. I have no doubt UWE found a good compromise with the layout as to not hurt the gameplay.
I'm pretty stoked to see this developed further and actually get to play it.
We had crates, elaborate props, dynamic lighting, and complicated geometry from the get go.. a far cry from the engine limitation derived blank hallways of NS1. They also are not used in any modern games? Even the far end of minimalist map design games like Warsow have roofs, crates, vents, pipes that are traversed.
Just dont fall into the trap that more complexity in a map equals more depth and interesting gameplay. A crate here and there is a very dull idea of spicing up a map i hope you realize.
Before I even get to see this new eclipse, I already know what the new map will be like compared to the original:
* no weldable points
* no elevators
* no breakable glass
* removed a bunch of ladders
* more ramps than the original
* 5 techpoints
* 1-20 FPS instead of 60
I can see that a lot would need to be changed to make it suitable for NS2 gameplay, but I do hope enough of the spirit stays. Most of my enduring NS1 memories are from Eclipse including the birth of the Skulk Hat.
Skulking into a CC relocate to Computer core after a rush took out the IPs and all but two marines, ghosting down a wall and sitting on top of Robin's head as he covered the commander who was rebuilding. Leaving them both wondering why everyone on TS was laughing in the face of the approaching alien respawn wave and defeat.
I miss that spirit of it not being about winning or losing, just having fun with friends. Far too many people server hopping as soon as the first expansion falls now
I didn't see the layout but i do think NS1 maps are not good for NS2.
Veil is an example of what is just wrong.
Veil is a great map..
Enjoying it is not incompatible with the fact that Veil is just wrong.
I play on some server where all know what to do. It ends up like flipping a coin. It's hammering on alien or on marine. But no team does a come back... ever.
Technically Veil isn't good for NS2. You can enjoy the vents and stuff but ultimately it is wrong for NS2. It has only 4 tech points. So less field to cover. If i remember correctly it's not respecting the guideline for making maps.
All hives are JP tempting. Pipe stay the doom hive. Sub-Sector the "too opened" one.
The worst is when you play with somehow not so experienced players. They all go to Nano for nothing. Make them understand the "cut in half the map plan" (pg cargo) is out of reach. They learn something they reproduce over and over. The exact same syndrome on NS1. I call it Drones.
It should be reworked to add another hive. ...So ppl can stop playing like drones.
I play on some server where all know what to do. It ends up like flipping a coin. It's hammering on alien or on marine. But no team does a come back... ever.
I've seen countless comebacks on Veil, though most involving a sneaky Gorge Tunnel (e.g. Topo) or Phase Gate (e.g. Cargo). Also System Waypoint / East Wing hold a lot of potential. The JP in hiverooms is a problem, but thats the same for Atrium or Flight Control in Summit.
Before I even get to see this new eclipse, I already know what the new map will be like compared to the original:
* no weldable points
* no elevators
* no breakable glass
* removed a bunch of ladders
* more ramps than the original
* 5 techpoints
* 1-20 FPS instead of 60
feel free to prove me wrong.
well the original eclipse did not have
*Weldable points
*Elevators
*Breakable glass
*5 tech points
@elodea
Those sections are still like that, whether they have been changed by the new mappers or not, the flow remains the same.
(cant speak on that laser section though, haven't had that in game yet)
And not to point fingers, but you actually were speaking from a minimalist mapping perspective when you said "i'm more concerned with the overcomplex geometry and props than the lighting that was shown."
Remedy loved his rounded corners
TBH, i still see issues with the NS1 layout being used in NS2 when we play it internally.. the frequency of extremely narrow corridors and chokepoints as well as where the aliens start having the largest impact on the direction of the round over any other map layout. I'd be okay if it wasn't always "faithful (dimension and geometry wise)"
Yea i know, there are some really well lit and clear areas shown (Although why there are crates in the middle of that corridor i will never know). But just as i'm not going to straight away assume the entire map is terrible from two screenshots, i'm not going to assume it's great from two really restricted view angle screenshots either. Especially when there are other concerning screenshots (laser drill, useless railings on stairs, dark and 'restrictive' looking eclipse tech point.
Also, I don't really want to keep going on and on about this like a broken record, but rounded corners are in fact a great example to illustrate exactly what i'm talking about. Lots of poly faces, but a minimalistic gameplay result. Overcomplex geometry from the perspective of gameplay is when you have a surface/room become overly articulated with thousands of corners, grooves, and juts to make it look 'kool'. When you do have juts from a wall, I feel they should generally be spaced to intuitively communicate walljumping routes. Just like the screenshot you linked http://i.imgur.com/nJss3.jpg.
Anyway, it's good to hear from you that the flow remains good from the pt.
Comments
You can see at the 23 second mark in the video that the ladder going down to Triad has been changed to a stairway. They had to make this change because it would be absolutely absurd to see Gorges and Onos climbing that ladder like they used to do in NS1 - it was silly looking then and would look worse now. I don't understand all the grumbling on this thread - I'm psyched for this map and it looks like Remedy and the crew did a fantastic job from what we can see so far. IMO this looks like it could be the best looking map I've seen for NS2 so far. There are more (early) pics on Remedy's WIP thread in the mapping forum for anyone who hasn't seen it yet. It was obvious from the quality that he had shown in the WIP that the UWE devs had grabbed Remedy to make it an official map. That dude has some serious talent and I hope they have him make more maps.
The mapping skill and detail is really truly amazing, but its definitely not minimalistic and gameplay minded. Just look at that screenshot you posted. Why are there glass windowed (even worse than the holey ones) railings down perfectly good set of stairs that have wall backings. We all know how much railings like to troll when it comes to bullet collision, movement, and the like. As far as i see, it just creates space to potentially get stuck and impede walljump.
I'm no mapper, but..
In regards to complicated geometry, the visual impact can remain without impacting gameplay with proper care...
Getting intricate geometry to allow smooth traversal is more than possible and done very frequently, but i do agree that there are times when this is not done well enough or even considered thoroughly. (Hydroanalysis railings)
Those glass railings can be there just for looks (take the middle one out!!) and share collision with the wall so as not to impede walljumping whatsoever?
Minimalist designs that you speak of were never advertised in this game despite it being a sequel to a game that did - not even from the beginning. We had crates, elaborate props, dynamic lighting, and complicated geometry from the get go.. a far cry from the engine limitation derived blank hallways of NS1. They also are not used in any modern games? Even the far end of minimalist map design games like Warsow have roofs, crates, vents, pipes that are traversed.
Did NS1 maps provide easier tracking and easier movement? Yes. Was it easier to balance? Yes. Should the game be easier by using that method?... that's a tougher one to answer and i would argue no..
The game should not be made easier by holding back on practical implementation of environments.
I remember picking out a pixel in Q2DM1 being far easier than picking out that camping camo'd sniper hundreds of meters away in the trees of White Pass in BC2.. That doesn't make Q2DM1 a better design or a worse design.. its just the natural evolution of gaming. Technology has allowed us to move onto more practical and realistic environments.. that therefore provide more of a challenge.
So why go that route if you do not have to? Why advocate for gray wall gaming? This should be an accepted natural progression of games.. environments simply become more beautiful and more complicated with new technology. And as long as i see players flying through maps, walljumping just fine through every single complicated prop ridden room.. I really don't think we have any reason to go back to those visually bland hallways.
But that's all my opinion..
Remedy was involved in the development of the map for a long time until he fell off the face of the earth, and it was always assumed he would still continue developing the map after it became official, but he just disappeared one day and never came back, so the development of the map was left to us.
To match Remedy with the word "minimalistic" is an oxymoron. Eclipse in an unfinished state managed to reach more polygon faces than a finished version of descent, a much larger map. Currently we have reverted a lot of remedy's changes to the map, which did a lot to move away from the ns1 design of the map, which I believe were unnecessary changes, and so things have moved a bit away from his vision of the map. The map still retains some of what remedy did, and definitely represents a lot of his hard work, but your insinuation that the map in the ns2 developers hands will somehow result in losing the spirit of the original, is misguided, as we have done a lot to make the map closer to the original after remedy disappeared.
1) I mean minimalism from the gameplay perspective, not the mapping perspective. You could have 1 flat surface made out of 9000 polygon faces and it'd still be for all intents and purposes minimalistic. You only have to look at the screenshots posted in the ns2_eclipse map thread to see how clean, uncluttered, and clear the spacing was. Obviously i would love to actually look at the new ns2_eclipse, compare screenshots and have a more informed opinion but I can't. I'm only posting my concerns based on what's been released, and am aware that those concerns could very well be incorrect for the majority of the map.
2) I didn't say anything about the 'spirit' of the original. Whether or not 'minimalism', or the current eclipse design, captures the 'spirit' of the original is not something I think is worth discussing since interpretation is always just that. I am also very well aware that remedy did try to heavily modify the maintenance hive area and for good reason. Every other textured area of the map was faithful (dimension and geometry wise). Easy on the eyes, with simple texturing, clear lines, spacing and walljump flow.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2057663/#Comment_2057663
I guess he found God's silly hole-in-the-map mapping mistake.
Those sections are still like that, whether they have been changed by the new mappers or not, the flow remains the same.
(cant speak on that laser section though, haven't had that in game yet)
Compare
http://i.imgur.com/UWQbp.jpg
with
http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/files/2013/11/Eclipse.Still004.jpg
FOV aside, the dimensions and open space are nearly identical..
or this
http://i.imgur.com/nJss3.jpg
with
http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/files/2013/11/Eclipse.Still003.jpg
And not to point fingers, but you actually were speaking from a minimalist mapping perspective when you said "i'm more concerned with the overcomplex geometry and props than the lighting that was shown."
Remedy loved his rounded corners
TBH, i still see issues with the NS1 layout being used in NS2 when we play it internally.. the frequency of extremely narrow corridors and chokepoints as well as where the aliens start having the largest impact on the direction of the round over any other map layout. I'd be okay if it wasn't always "faithful (dimension and geometry wise)"
@Warmonger
Not just because it looked silly as hell but while they offered some intense chokepoints for some sweet fights I think it hindered things too much most of the time. I have no doubt UWE found a good compromise with the layout as to not hurt the gameplay.
I'm pretty stoked to see this developed further and actually get to play it.
Just dont fall into the trap that more complexity in a map equals more depth and interesting gameplay. A crate here and there is a very dull idea of spicing up a map i hope you realize.
* no weldable points
* no elevators
* no breakable glass
* removed a bunch of ladders
* more ramps than the original
* 5 techpoints
* 1-20 FPS instead of 60
feel free to prove me wrong.
Veil is an example of what is just wrong.
i enjoy veil
Skulking into a CC relocate to Computer core after a rush took out the IPs and all but two marines, ghosting down a wall and sitting on top of Robin's head as he covered the commander who was rebuilding. Leaving them both wondering why everyone on TS was laughing in the face of the approaching alien respawn wave and defeat.
I miss that spirit of it not being about winning or losing, just having fun with friends. Far too many people server hopping as soon as the first expansion falls now
Veil is a great map..
Enjoying it is not incompatible with the fact that Veil is just wrong.
I play on some server where all know what to do. It ends up like flipping a coin. It's hammering on alien or on marine. But no team does a come back... ever.
Technically Veil isn't good for NS2. You can enjoy the vents and stuff but ultimately it is wrong for NS2. It has only 4 tech points. So less field to cover. If i remember correctly it's not respecting the guideline for making maps.
All hives are JP tempting. Pipe stay the doom hive. Sub-Sector the "too opened" one.
The worst is when you play with somehow not so experienced players. They all go to Nano for nothing. Make them understand the "cut in half the map plan" (pg cargo) is out of reach. They learn something they reproduce over and over. The exact same syndrome on NS1. I call it Drones.
It should be reworked to add another hive. ...So ppl can stop playing like drones.
well the original eclipse did not have
*Weldable points
*Elevators
*Breakable glass
*5 tech points
So umm yeah...
Also, I don't really want to keep going on and on about this like a broken record, but rounded corners are in fact a great example to illustrate exactly what i'm talking about. Lots of poly faces, but a minimalistic gameplay result. Overcomplex geometry from the perspective of gameplay is when you have a surface/room become overly articulated with thousands of corners, grooves, and juts to make it look 'kool'. When you do have juts from a wall, I feel they should generally be spaced to intuitively communicate walljumping routes. Just like the screenshot you linked http://i.imgur.com/nJss3.jpg.
Anyway, it's good to hear from you that the flow remains good from the pt.