Serious discussion about Babblers (no babbling)

WingflierWingflier Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183769Members
After the (somewhat) recent changes to the Babblers, making them an researchable tech (part of the Gorge package), and therefore a little harder to obtain/more "techy", how does everybody feel about them?

Are they any good at combat now or are they still just glorified meatshields for 3 Rez? Personally I never see them and it's kind of sad because I think their combat ability should at least be useful in some situations.

I think we're past the point now of people fearing a 5 Gorge + Babblers and Bilebomb spam because it would easily be countered (with the new grenades or just by rushing advanced weapons).

Are the Babblers useful now? Not useful? What's the consensus?
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Comments

  • VengaboyVengaboy The Swamp Join Date: 2013-08-24 Member: 187053Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2013
    They were OP before the nerf with early game skulks being covered with them. Ever since the nerf I almost never use them. Now they're just bloating the game with useless content IMO. I hope UWE figures out a better application for them to make em worthwhile again though.
  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members
    I think that Babblers should be available from the start. Gorges are already extremely weak since they move so slowly.

    Babblers were a fantastic early game tool for defense, and to harass Marine bases. I used to regularly go Gorge early game and run around leaving Babblers on Extractors to draw Marine attention (and thus lessen the Marine push elsewhere) I found them extremely useful.

    Ever since they locked Babblers behind research, I personally find early game Gorge to be a waste of res. Most of the time I manage to get my hydras and clogs up, then I get wiped out by a group of 2-3 Marines I'm helpless against. = Hydras dead, clogs destroyed, and all res lost... not fun at all.

    Before I could run away and survive with the Babblers as armor, or send them in to attack and run away while the enemy is distracted. It wasn't too hard to survive and be useful as a Gorge until I had the res for a higher life form. Now by the time Babblers are even researched I usually have enough for Lerk or Fade...

    I certainly appreciate those who Gorge early game... but without Babblers it's just a waste of res for me. At least as a Skulk I can be helpful gnawing on extractors and such without losing all my res if I die.
  • It's Super Effective!It's Super Effective! Join Date: 2012-08-28 Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Just throwing an idea out there, but what if we returned the "free researched" babblers. But for every babbler on a target, that target moves a fraction slower to make it a choice between Defense versus speed. The value of protection versus speed penalty would obviously be adjusted to make it worth while, but also practical in use.

    If a gorge wanted to stand their ground, then the babblers would be good, but if they are constantly retreating, then they need to "shed" that armor to escape.

    Same goes for Skulk, sure they would be more beefy to take on an entrenched marine, but he would have proportionately less agility.
  • SpaSpa Join Date: 2013-05-20 Member: 185301Members
    MoFo wrote: »
    I think that Babblers should be available from the start. Gorges are already extremely weak since they move so slowly.

    Babblers were a fantastic early game tool for defense, and to harass Marine bases. I used to regularly go Gorge early game and run around leaving Babblers on Extractors to draw Marine attention (and thus lessen the Marine push elsewhere) I found them extremely useful.

    Ever since they locked Babblers behind research, I personally find early game Gorge to be a waste of res. Most of the time I manage to get my hydras and clogs up, then I get wiped out by a group of 2-3 Marines I'm helpless against. = Hydras dead, clogs destroyed, and all res lost... not fun at all.

    Before I could run away and survive with the Babblers as armor, or send them in to attack and run away while the enemy is distracted. It wasn't too hard to survive and be useful as a Gorge until I had the res for a higher life form. Now by the time Babblers are even researched I usually have enough for Lerk or Fade...

    I certainly appreciate those who Gorge early game... but without Babblers it's just a waste of res for me. At least as a Skulk I can be helpful gnawing on extractors and such without losing all my res if I die.

    I agree with a lot of this but as someone who gorges early I spend all my res on setting up an early gorge tunnel. Eg Veil: Run to nano lay down a tunnel for early cysts to harvesters and shade/crag and then go back to spawn to lay the other tunnel.

    Babblers work later game when you have some res up, but it is hard to use in early game so it is not a big deal that they have to be researched... at least for me.
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    Making Babblers slow an Alien down seems reasonable. Even though Babblers don't look that heavy.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Just throwing an idea out there, but what if we returned the "free researched" babblers. But for every babbler on a target, that target moves a fraction slower to make it a choice between Defense versus speed. The value of protection versus speed penalty would obviously be adjusted to make it worth while, but also practical in use.

    If a gorge wanted to stand their ground, then the babblers would be good, but if they are constantly retreating, then they need to "shed" that armor to escape.

    Same goes for Skulk, sure they would be more beefy to take on an entrenched marine, but he would have proportionately less agility.

    You would need an option to shake off babblers, though. I can imagine all the troll gorges pinning lerks to the ground with overwhelming masses of babblers :D
  • It's Super Effective!It's Super Effective! Join Date: 2012-08-28 Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    Making Babblers slow an Alien down seems reasonable. Even though Babblers don't look that heavy.

    A lerk flying with 6 babblers looks uncomfortable to me, especially when they attach to the wings, affecting the aerodynamics xD
    You would need an option to shake off babblers, though. I can imagine all the troll gorges pinning lerks to the ground with overwhelming masses of babblers :D

    Well trolls will always exist, but ya perhaps a shake off button wouldn't be too bad

    Again, How much Protection versus Speed Penalty has yet to be determined, perhaps it's fixed, perhaps it scales with life form.
    At the present, babblers on an onos seems pointless, but babblers on a skulk (early game) is a strong play as it sacrifices PRES for defense. Much like building clogs or hydras also make that same sacrifice.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    Making Babblers slow an Alien down seems reasonable. Even though Babblers don't look that heavy.

    I don't think it is so much how heavy they are but that they hang onto you. I have a lot of very little cousins. Age 2-6. They all weigh about 30 pounds depending on the child. If one decides to hang onto my leg, its not that it is too heavy, but that I have something holding onto my leg slowing me down. The babblers would hinder proper movement more than weigh you down. If I had three cousins on me, it would be kinda heavy but doable. So I would be slowed down from weight and from restricted movement, aka all 6 babblers.
  • reeqlreeql Join Date: 2013-05-05 Member: 185125Members
    edited November 2013
    Parasite style bait and much more aggresive babblers. Thats all gorge need.
  • WingflierWingflier Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183769Members
    Good discussion so far. Here are the main two problems I have with the Babblers:

    1. Even though Babblers have become part of a research package, and therefore much more difficult/timely to obtain, they have not been significantly buffed to compensate. In other words, one would assume that since Babblers are no longer "free tech", and cost team resources to unlock, they would be noticeably better than before. I have seen no evidence that this is the case and it confuses me.

    2. The only use Babblers have EVER had, in any balance iteration, to my knowledge, is that of a glorified meatshield. While that role is great and all, why aren't they, a researchable tech, also useful on offense as well? Even if they focused a certain target better, or did more damage, or were harder to kill, the marine has plenty of ways to deal with them. The new hand grenades and the instantly researched flamethrower/grenade launcher tech (after the advanced armory is built) could easily take care of this threat.

    If the only real role of the Babblers is to make somebody survive longer, then why even give them the ability to attack at all?

    Having said all that, I think the game functions perfectly fine even if the Babblers were completely removed. Then again, the game would function perfectly fine even if the Marines didn't have access to the Sentry Turrets. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find a role for the Babblers. I think they are one of the coolest concepts of the game and I hope UWE can give them some love :D
  • SpaSpa Join Date: 2013-05-20 Member: 185301Members
    Babblers cost the 30 res for upgraded gorge but it is more for bile bomb. Also a lot of people don't use late game webs
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    Do babblers give vision? If they don't, THAT could be a very useful feature. Let the inexpensive, expendable babblers scout out the marine base and harass rez.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    Nobody liked the OP babblers from before, but they got nerfed a bit too hard imo. The changes to HP/armor seemed enough. The costly research requirements on top made them fairly unused. I think they need to be available at start again to make them worthwhile, because nobody is going to invest the tres neccessary to get them in the early game (when babblers are really the most useful).

    Alternatively the abilities could be unclustered again, pricing the individual abilities accordingly, making babbler research a bit more viable choice to invest in early on.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    babblers are fine where they are.

    They might not be as good for tanking bullets anymore (except shotgun and gl due to capped 2 hit system), but they are still sure as hell good for obscuring marine vision if you shoot them off your body into his face.
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited November 2013
    ^ talking about gorge as a means to escape? Hmm haven't tried that in combat yet....
  • WingflierWingflier Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183769Members
    elodea wrote: »
    babblers are fine where they are.

    They might not be as good for tanking bullets anymore (except shotgun and gl due to capped 2 hit system), but they are still sure as hell good for obscuring marine vision if you shoot them off your body into his face.
    Show me where they are used in competitive play.

  • SpaSpa Join Date: 2013-05-20 Member: 185301Members
    Not many teams use gorges in comp play especially since a lot of teams try the lerk, 2 fade and 2 Oni strategy.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    The lack of a joker reference makes me a sad babbler, I mean seriously :(
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I sometimes use babblers on power nodes / extractors. Marines often don't care to get rid of them all and it happened they took it down. Also they constantly alarm Marines, distracting them that way.
  • WingflierWingflier Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183769Members
    Spa wrote: »
    Not many teams use gorges in comp play especially since a lot of teams try the lerk, 2 fade and 2 Oni strategy.
    Gorge still sees significant use for early tunnel plays though.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Someone had an idea awhile back where Babblers should latch onto marines and do damage-over-time. Other marines have to shoot the Babblers off their teammates to get them to stop, otherwise the Babblers will reach their damage limit and explode from gorging too much on marine flesh (causing damage to nearby allies).
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited November 2013
    MoFo wrote: »
    I think that Babblers should be available from the start. Gorges are already extremely weak since they move so slowly.

    Babblers were a fantastic early game tool for defense, and to harass Marine bases. I used to regularly go Gorge early game and run around leaving Babblers on Extractors to draw Marine attention (and thus lessen the Marine push elsewhere) I found them extremely useful.

    Ever since they locked Babblers behind research, I personally find early game Gorge to be a waste of res. Most of the time I manage to get my hydras and clogs up, then I get wiped out by a group of 2-3 Marines I'm helpless against. = Hydras dead, clogs destroyed, and all res lost... not fun at all.

    Before I could run away and survive with the Babblers as armour, or send them in to attack and run away while the enemy is distracted. It wasn't too hard to survive and be useful as a Gorge until I had the res for a higher life form. Now by the time Babblers are even researched I usually have enough for Lerk or Fade...

    I certainly appreciate those who Gorge early game... but without Babblers it's just a waste of res for me. At least as a Skulk I can be helpful gnawing on extractors and such without losing all my res if I die.

    No, Gorges are currently VERY strong early game and the most cost efficient life form aliens have all game round. It already has a LOT of health (especially when you take into account its heal spray + jump combo) and really doesn't need more vs w0 marines. If you're dying early game to marines as gorge then you aren't positioned correctly OR your team isn't either.
    With the way tunnels are auto researched and cheap right now (but research is coming back RIGHT!?!?!?!?!) they're a MASSIVE game changer in competitive games and simply game BREAKING in pub games with high player counts where the team can afford to have 3-4 gorges and still have enough skulks to do stuff.
    They do NOT need a buff with babbler armour, and as for babblers sticking to skulks early game, that was stupid and OP as well, glad it's gone.

    They're still useful on fades/lerks (can save lerks lives many times over). So it's not like they're useless.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2013
    Babblers have never been useful for their intended purpose, since they are weak, do little damage, and the AI isn't that good.

    For a while their meatshield ability made them OP, but now that it's been toned down there's really little purpose in using them. They just feel like entirely superfluous game content at the moment.

    The thing is, I don't see how they could be buffed without just making them a nuisance. Make them actually effective, and they're just annoying/OP.

    Also, the system used for controlling them is really awkward.

    You know, the more I think about it, I don't really like anything about Babblers. I wouldn't mind at all if they were removed from the game. Their skins are adorable though.
  • RoflcopterV22RoflcopterV22 Arizona Join Date: 2013-04-03 Member: 184616Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Possibly rather than having the babblers not tech-able whatsoever, allow them to be created from the get go, BUT:
    Either
    A) Have the ability for them to latch onto something be included with gorge upgrades
    B) Have the babbler bait be included in gorge upgrades

    I believe that would make babblers useful for early game annoyance and harass, along with possibly doing enough damage to lower the amount of bites/spits it will take to kill one. Yet still holding back on what was a bit too powerful.

    Or in an entirely different direction, have the amount of babblers creatable be proportional to biomass. (Every 2/3 biomass you would be able to drop another egg?)
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited November 2013
    I wouldn't mind seeing babblers being used as a simple buff to whatever the gorge is trying to do at the time.
    When the gorge isn't doing anything in particular, the babblers perch on the gorge's back, providing armour. When the gorge attacks something (a marine structure or player), the babblers rush over and start nibbling at it. When the gorge starts healing something, the babblers rush over and start nuzzling against it, trying to help (This is the most important one).

    [EDIT] Oh and remove the bait ball.
  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., Canada Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Members
    I want Babblers to be reliable. Falling through the world when run over, as well as staring into space after bait throw, make 'em unreliable minions :(
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2013
    IronHorse wrote: »
    elodea wrote: »
    babblers are fine where they are.

    They might not be as good for tanking bullets anymore (except shotgun and gl due to capped 2 hit system), but they are still sure as hell good for obscuring marine vision if you shoot them off your body into his face.
    Babblers are not remotely aggressive /fast enough to accomplish this. They can be practically ignored when used like that.

    They are a far cry from the snarks that they originated from, in this regard.
    Well yea, by themselves running around with their crappy AI coding its not (more of an AI problem, not inherent speed and unpredictability).

    It's about the initial 'shotgun' effect from close range of shooting them at a marine while they are on your body. This is the only way to easily control the launch to great effect. The marine will end up killing babblers in his face, which will make them explode in green obscuring puffs.

    Try doing it around corners for great lols. *Add a face hugger drifter for even more lols.

    Also, babblers at even 20hp are able to extend your hp past 50 lmg bullets x average aim. This means alot when it comes to survivability and ability to engage.
    Wingflier wrote: »
    elodea wrote: »
    babblers are fine where they are.

    They might not be as good for tanking bullets anymore (except shotgun and gl due to capped 2 hit system), but they are still sure as hell good for obscuring marine vision if you shoot them off your body into his face.
    Show me where they are used in competitive play.
    They arn't used in competitive play because it's better to spam cheap hydra's, super tunnels, or heck even to regorge. Not to mention blatantly op free clogs which are 13x the hp of one babbler. That's not to say babblers are underpowered, just that there are better, more op uses for that same pres.

    The babblers also do not fit with the gorge play style of endless skirmish spitting pretty much like lerk gas in ns1 (also op due to low spit energy and crazy downhill bellyslide speed).
    Spa wrote: »
    Not many teams use gorges in comp play especially since a lot of teams try the lerk, 2 fade and 2 Oni strategy.
    Are you kidding me?
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Mouse wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind seeing babblers being used as a simple buff to whatever the gorge is trying to do at the time.
    When the gorge isn't doing anything in particular, the babblers perch on the gorge's back, providing armour. When the gorge attacks something (a marine structure or player), the babblers rush over and start nibbling at it. When the gorge starts healing something, the babblers rush over and start nuzzling against it, trying to help (This is the most important one).

    [EDIT] Oh and remove the bait ball.

    ...I want to be nuzzled by babblers.
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