BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
edited November 2013
Now on the roadmap:
- Make hallways a bit more homogeneous. Right now, there are some that are too big/long (easy for marines) and some that are too narrow/windy (easy for aliens).
- Add to Meat Chutes so it's less open, more alien-friendly.
- More obstacles to Killing Floor.
- Make Specimen tanks feel more "closed". We playtested it some yesterday, and one of the testers pointed out that it feels too "open", and that I should have opaque space between the tanks so marines can't see the whole room from any spot in the room.
- Freezer tech point is too small/ugly. I'll probably redo THIS one too. Well that's what I get for starting a map too early, before I know how to use the editor all that well...
Known issues:
- Occlusion problem in one of the two vents on the north side of Specimen Tanks. I've already fixed this, just have yet to re-publish.
- Stairs don't extend all the way in the middle of Specimen Tanks, so it leaves a little ledge there. When covered by infestation, it almost feels like a stuck spot.
- Some windows aren't "dirty" enough. I'll certainly try to find a dirtier window texture to use (I always hated this, especially in Biodome).
Please let me know if there's any other problems with the map you think needs to be fixed, or any suggestions on what I should change.
Originally it was ns2_skulkHotDogs but I opted for ns2_hotdogs because 1) it's shorter and 2) easier to remember. ("now was that skulkdogs, or skulk hot dogs, or skulkdogsfactory..." etc etc)
If that's got you hungry, feast your eyes on this baby!
"Hey Beige, do those spin?" You'd better believe it!
"Hey Beige, if I fall in, will I die?" Well there's a long answer and a short answer. The short answer is "yes". The long answer is "yes you will". Any more questions?
It does seem a bit ambiguous in where it wants you to go. This is especially apparent in sections with multiple layers, like Arsenal. Would be less of a puzzle with some cues and simplified main routes. I found myself fighting the flow more than actually being able to assist our comm.
It does seem a bit ambiguous in where it wants you to go. This is especially apparent in sections with multiple layers, like Arsenal. Would be less of a puzzle with some cues and simplified main routes. I found myself fighting the flow more than actually being able to assist our comm.
Thanks for the feedback, and thanks also for making a video. It helps me a lot to playtest this thing, but often times I forget every little detail that comes up, it helps to have a video to refer back to.
I tried to give each room a bit more dimension than they had last time this was play tested by you guys. Before, Arsenal was just this flat empty room that essentially became a shooting corridor for marines. No cover whatsoever. In most of the rooms, you navigate on the ground level, and hide/retreat up above. I can't think of a room ATM that makes you go up a level to exit.
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
Just released version 0.2.5 of ns2_hotdogs!
Notable changes:
-Freezer completely remade.
-New route from R&D to Killing Floor
-Removed route from Killing Floor to Maturation Center
-Removed northernmost route from Killing Floor to North Access
-Replaced Winding Hall with Cart Storage
-Catwalk is MUCH less open now.
-Removed Killing Floor RT
-Specimen Tanks is less open-looking. The rows of tanks now have solid dividers running the length, so you can't see the whole room at any position now.
My big goal with this release was to make the hallways a little bit more homogenous in terms of openness. There were too many really cramped hallways before, where aliens would dominate, as well as there being too many big open spaces, where marines would of course dominate.
Is this working for everybody? It works for me, but the server I frequent is having problems loading it up.
I've never hosted a server on this game, but maybe there's some type of mapcycle list text file in which they spelled the name of the map wrong and causes it to not load the map? I know in source you need to have the map name specifically in a text file. I could be rambling about nothing right now though
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
Alright guys, here's the epiphany that I've had recently: my map sucks. No no, stop... it sucks, no getting around that, really, and I agree with you!
What works: okay... drawing a blank here... maybe some of the rooms are laid out nicely, maybe you like the theme. That's cool. But in terms of gameplay, that doesn't get us very far.
What doesn't work: The layout. The layout sucks, and I don't have a clue of how to fix this thing. Everybody complains about the corridors being too tight, or too long, or too cramped. That sounds like a contradiction, but I don't care: they're right. When I first started this map, I didn't have a clue what I was doing, and it shows! I've learned a LOT since then, but regardless I'm still up to my neck in stupid garbage that I made 3 months ago that severely slows down my progress. For example, when I first made the map, I lost track of which axis is which, and the map ended up being rotate 90 degree off of what I wanted. So I just rotated it 90 degrees back. Problem solved, right? Wrong... now, literally EVERY vertex was off-grid... But unfortunately, I didn't notice this right away, when I could have simply shifted everything back into place... so I've just had to live with it until now, shifting stuff back into place when I worked on certain areas.
Anyways, long story short: I've decided to start over. Not exactly from scratch, but over enough that I probably won't have a playable release again for a very long time. That's okay, if that's what it takes to make this map fun and balanced, I'll do it. My current plan is to copy+paste the stuff I like into a blank map, and start from there. Right now, I'm in photoshop with the overhead map, rearranging bits and pieces here and there to see if I can come up with a good layout.
Here's where I need your help- NO WAIT COME BACK! You don't have to do much of anything, I swear! I just need feedback on layouts. I really really want to avoid the overused "wheel-and-spokes" map layout that summit, biodome, and descent use. I'd also like it to be a 5 techpoint map, I just don't like 4 tps that much... though that can certainly change if it really really needs to.
So here's the layout idea I've been tinkering with: think Veil, where Marines start at the top, at one fixed point, and aliens at the bottom, at a random point, and the rez is... more or less... in the middle of the map, rather than being between every techpoint like with summit, biodome, and descent. Now, instead of 3 tech-points at the bottom, we have 4. Marines have two natural RTs, and they need to move towards the aliens to get the rest.
Here's the diagram I've cooked up, using the existing techpoints from hotdogs. Don't read too much into it though! The size and shape of the blobs rooms is still completely unknown here. This is just to map out the connections between the rooms, and where the RTs will be located. Also, ignore the orange vent stuff, that's just from the existing map, and probably won't be the same.
I have high goals, and high hopes for this... hopefully... Although it's a very silly concept -- I'm aware of this -- I'd still like it to be enjoyable both in pubs and competitively. (aww isn't that cute, he thinks he might get an nsl version of his map one day... )
I would love to hear feedback on this, suggestions for the layout, etc. etc.
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
edited December 2013
Alright, I'm going to interpret this silence as a sign that that layout is a bad idea... okay... plan b (...and C)
This layout is totally different, sort of like summit, but a triangle with TWO tps in the middle (out of arc range of each other) instead of just one center tp, and res on the outside.
Alternatively, plan C: (EDIT: whoops! meant to be RT's inside the two middle TP bases as well!)
I'm just gonna keep pitching these... here's plan D... my personal favorite so far... 3 random spawns around the outside in a triangle, two entrances each. Middle TPs are a nice location, but 3 entrances each... harder to hold. Each of the 3 starting positions natural expansion rts is contested from 4 directions possibly. I'm gonna sit on this for a few days, mull it over, then I'll probably go with this if nobody has any really big
EDIT: I'd like to point out that the two inner TPs will of course NOT be within easy arcing range of the other room. That would be silly. Also bear in mind that this is JUST a layout diagram... it bears no resemblance to the size or shape of the rooms and hallways.
I feel for you, It's all part of learning and there's a lot to learn! Also the ability to objectively evaluate your work and admit you've made bad calls is the sign of a good level designer.... At least that's what I tell myself when I'm deleting a huge chunk.
I'm in the same boat atm (for the 20th time) so we can pine for our lost work together.
I like plan D. Though I really dont think it needs to be a double Tech point. one would do!
...the ability to objectively evaluate your work and admit you've made bad calls is the sign of a good level designer...
hahaha yea I wish I had figured this out a long time ago... I kept saying to myself "oh it might be okay, we'll see how it tests", with a pretty good feeling that it was not going to work.
I like plan D. Though I really dont think it needs to be a double Tech point. one would do!
It's not a double tech point, it's two tech point rooms very close to center, but NOT in the same room as each other. Sorry, I just noticed they sort of overlap in the image on screen, but that's not a double tech point. There is no connection between the rooms either, only the two rooms north and south bridge the two.
I'm liking this layout more and more. Could be unique that every tech point on the map is literally ONE (res) room away from another tech point. I'm still going to sit on this for a few more days though. In the mean time though, I'm making custom textures for the map!
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
4 routes into one point is too much, trust me this is experience talking! I have taken your latest design and made a few changes which incorporate some choke points. While potentially making this map hard to balance, I do think maps with more dedicated choke points could be interesting. I've uploaded the picture so you can see the changes.
I think it makes for some interesting battles, and of course, good vent placement can really help with easing choke point problems.
I think it would make a good map, but alas, all my time is for modding, no more for mapping. If you want to build it along the lines above, keep me posted, I would be very interested to see how that turns out
The only other potential change I would make would be to run a connection from the centre tech points, out to the outer tech points, making it as long as a hive to hive run, but with no res at the mid point. This would enable the centre tech points to be a bit more vulnerable if the team has the choke points locked down.
4 routes into one point is too much, trust me this is experience talking! I have taken your latest design and made a few changes which incorporate some choke points. While potentially making this map hard to balance, I do think maps with more dedicated choke points could be interesting. I've uploaded the picture so you can see the changes.
I think it makes for some interesting battles, and of course, good vent placement can really help with easing choke point problems.
I think it would make a good map, but alas, all my time is for modding, no more for mapping. If you want to build it along the lines above, keep me posted, I would be very interested to see how that turns out
The only other potential change I would make would be to run a connection from the centre tech points, out to the outer tech points, making it as long as a hive to hive run, but with no res at the mid point. This would enable the centre tech points to be a bit more vulnerable if the team has the choke points locked down.
Hey I like these changes too! I may go with this. I'm hesitant about having more than two entrances to each TP though... I guess that's what greybox testing is for though!
NO SURRENDER!...giving up just isn't an option!
The way I see it is that time is only wasted when you don't learn or persist in developing your ideas. As time goes by with mapping you learn more about NS2 level-design and improve your skills with the editor. I think the only way to really reap the benefits of a culling session is to rebuild stuff on a clean slate (so no copying and pasting old geo).
Although you should probably keep referring to your old build for scale and to remind yourself of what was good and what failed....I guess its all about Filtering the good ideas from the bad, revising, tweaking and ultimately improving... the hard part is figuring out which ideas are the good ones.
So don't be dishearten, just think about how awesome the next version is going to be!
I think you have a point about not copying anything over... however I think I'll still copy over The View and Security techpoints, I like those. Maybe even Freezer too. Haven't started on this project yet.
ah suit yourself then!... I just find i spend more time trying to jiggle everything around than I would just remaking and it always comes out better on a remake!
ah suit yourself then!... I just find i spend more time trying to jiggle everything around than I would just remaking and it always comes out better on a remake!
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
I've been asked this a lot, and just so everybody knows, I AM still working on this. Just been getting a little busier IRL so things might move a little slower .
Looks great Beige, I dig the funny tour you wrote too. How many custom props are currently planned for this?
Hmm... well so far there's a few custom textures, and of course the grinder is a custom prop. I'll be making a goofy "skulk-dog" mascot for the "Reception" area (renamed from "The View"). I've also made a custom door frame prop, which I don't think anybody has seen yet (unless it made it into the old map, I don't remember). I'll probably make a few more.
Comments
- Make hallways a bit more homogeneous. Right now, there are some that are too big/long (easy for marines) and some that are too narrow/windy (easy for aliens).
- Add to Meat Chutes so it's less open, more alien-friendly.
- More obstacles to Killing Floor.
- Make Specimen tanks feel more "closed". We playtested it some yesterday, and one of the testers pointed out that it feels too "open", and that I should have opaque space between the tanks so marines can't see the whole room from any spot in the room.
- Freezer tech point is too small/ugly. I'll probably redo THIS one too. Well that's what I get for starting a map too early, before I know how to use the editor all that well...
Known issues:
- Occlusion problem in one of the two vents on the north side of Specimen Tanks. I've already fixed this, just have yet to re-publish.
- Stairs don't extend all the way in the middle of Specimen Tanks, so it leaves a little ledge there. When covered by infestation, it almost feels like a stuck spot.
- Some windows aren't "dirty" enough. I'll certainly try to find a dirtier window texture to use (I always hated this, especially in Biodome).
Please let me know if there's any other problems with the map you think needs to be fixed, or any suggestions on what I should change.
Originally it was ns2_skulkHotDogs but I opted for ns2_hotdogs because 1) it's shorter and 2) easier to remember. ("now was that skulkdogs, or skulk hot dogs, or skulkdogsfactory..." etc etc)
If that's got you hungry, feast your eyes on this baby!
"Hey Beige, do those spin?" You'd better believe it!
"Hey Beige, if I fall in, will I die?" Well there's a long answer and a short answer. The short answer is "yes". The long answer is "yes you will". Any more questions?
It does seem a bit ambiguous in where it wants you to go. This is especially apparent in sections with multiple layers, like Arsenal. Would be less of a puzzle with some cues and simplified main routes. I found myself fighting the flow more than actually being able to assist our comm.
Thanks for the feedback, and thanks also for making a video. It helps me a lot to playtest this thing, but often times I forget every little detail that comes up, it helps to have a video to refer back to.
I tried to give each room a bit more dimension than they had last time this was play tested by you guys. Before, Arsenal was just this flat empty room that essentially became a shooting corridor for marines. No cover whatsoever. In most of the rooms, you navigate on the ground level, and hide/retreat up above. I can't think of a room ATM that makes you go up a level to exit.
Notable changes:
-Freezer completely remade.
-New route from R&D to Killing Floor
-Removed route from Killing Floor to Maturation Center
-Removed northernmost route from Killing Floor to North Access
-Replaced Winding Hall with Cart Storage
-Catwalk is MUCH less open now.
-Removed Killing Floor RT
-Specimen Tanks is less open-looking. The rows of tanks now have solid dividers running the length, so you can't see the whole room at any position now.
My big goal with this release was to make the hallways a little bit more homogenous in terms of openness. There were too many really cramped hallways before, where aliens would dominate, as well as there being too many big open spaces, where marines would of course dominate.
I've never hosted a server on this game, but maybe there's some type of mapcycle list text file in which they spelled the name of the map wrong and causes it to not load the map? I know in source you need to have the map name specifically in a text file. I could be rambling about nothing right now though
What works: okay... drawing a blank here... maybe some of the rooms are laid out nicely, maybe you like the theme. That's cool. But in terms of gameplay, that doesn't get us very far.
What doesn't work: The layout. The layout sucks, and I don't have a clue of how to fix this thing. Everybody complains about the corridors being too tight, or too long, or too cramped. That sounds like a contradiction, but I don't care: they're right. When I first started this map, I didn't have a clue what I was doing, and it shows! I've learned a LOT since then, but regardless I'm still up to my neck in stupid garbage that I made 3 months ago that severely slows down my progress. For example, when I first made the map, I lost track of which axis is which, and the map ended up being rotate 90 degree off of what I wanted. So I just rotated it 90 degrees back. Problem solved, right? Wrong... now, literally EVERY vertex was off-grid... But unfortunately, I didn't notice this right away, when I could have simply shifted everything back into place... so I've just had to live with it until now, shifting stuff back into place when I worked on certain areas.
Anyways, long story short: I've decided to start over. Not exactly from scratch, but over enough that I probably won't have a playable release again for a very long time. That's okay, if that's what it takes to make this map fun and balanced, I'll do it. My current plan is to copy+paste the stuff I like into a blank map, and start from there. Right now, I'm in photoshop with the overhead map, rearranging bits and pieces here and there to see if I can come up with a good layout.
Here's where I need your help- NO WAIT COME BACK! You don't have to do much of anything, I swear! I just need feedback on layouts. I really really want to avoid the overused "wheel-and-spokes" map layout that summit, biodome, and descent use. I'd also like it to be a 5 techpoint map, I just don't like 4 tps that much... though that can certainly change if it really really needs to.
So here's the layout idea I've been tinkering with: think Veil, where Marines start at the top, at one fixed point, and aliens at the bottom, at a random point, and the rez is... more or less... in the middle of the map, rather than being between every techpoint like with summit, biodome, and descent. Now, instead of 3 tech-points at the bottom, we have 4. Marines have two natural RTs, and they need to move towards the aliens to get the rest.
Here's the diagram I've cooked up, using the existing techpoints from hotdogs. Don't read too much into it though! The size and shape of the blobs rooms is still completely unknown here. This is just to map out the connections between the rooms, and where the RTs will be located. Also, ignore the orange vent stuff, that's just from the existing map, and probably won't be the same.
I have high goals, and high hopes for this... hopefully...
I would love to hear feedback on this, suggestions for the layout, etc. etc.
This layout is totally different, sort of like summit, but a triangle with TWO tps in the middle (out of arc range of each other) instead of just one center tp, and res on the outside.
Alternatively, plan C: (EDIT: whoops! meant to be RT's inside the two middle TP bases as well!)
I'm just gonna keep pitching these... here's plan D... my personal favorite so far... 3 random spawns around the outside in a triangle, two entrances each. Middle TPs are a nice location, but 3 entrances each... harder to hold. Each of the 3 starting positions natural expansion rts is contested from 4 directions possibly. I'm gonna sit on this for a few days, mull it over, then I'll probably go with this if nobody has any really big
EDIT: I'd like to point out that the two inner TPs will of course NOT be within easy arcing range of the other room. That would be silly. Also bear in mind that this is JUST a layout diagram... it bears no resemblance to the size or shape of the rooms and hallways.
I'm in the same boat atm (for the 20th time) so we can pine for our lost work together.
I like plan D. Though I really dont think it needs to be a double Tech point. one would do!
hahaha yea I wish I had figured this out a long time ago... I kept saying to myself "oh it might be okay, we'll see how it tests", with a pretty good feeling that it was not going to work.
Yikes! Well good luck man! I really like your map, don't give up!
It's not a double tech point, it's two tech point rooms very close to center, but NOT in the same room as each other. Sorry, I just noticed they sort of overlap in the image on screen, but that's not a double tech point. There is no connection between the rooms either, only the two rooms north and south bridge the two.
I'm liking this layout more and more. Could be unique that every tech point on the map is literally ONE (res) room away from another tech point. I'm still going to sit on this for a few more days though. In the mean time though, I'm making custom textures for the map!
I think it makes for some interesting battles, and of course, good vent placement can really help with easing choke point problems.
I think it would make a good map, but alas, all my time is for modding, no more for mapping. If you want to build it along the lines above, keep me posted, I would be very interested to see how that turns out
The only other potential change I would make would be to run a connection from the centre tech points, out to the outer tech points, making it as long as a hive to hive run, but with no res at the mid point. This would enable the centre tech points to be a bit more vulnerable if the team has the choke points locked down.
Hey I like these changes too! I may go with this. I'm hesitant about having more than two entrances to each TP though... I guess that's what greybox testing is for though!
The way I see it is that time is only wasted when you don't learn or persist in developing your ideas. As time goes by with mapping you learn more about NS2 level-design and improve your skills with the editor. I think the only way to really reap the benefits of a culling session is to rebuild stuff on a clean slate (so no copying and pasting old geo).
Although you should probably keep referring to your old build for scale and to remind yourself of what was good and what failed....I guess its all about Filtering the good ideas from the bad, revising, tweaking and ultimately improving... the hard part is figuring out which ideas are the good ones.
So don't be dishearten, just think about how awesome the next version is going to be!
Alright bud, I've thought it through, and I think I'm going to go with your changes to layout D (layout E from now on).
@Howser
I think you have a point about not copying anything over... however I think I'll still copy over The View and Security techpoints, I like those. Maybe even Freezer too. Haven't started on this project yet.
I might just do that then, who knows.
Here's the new Killing Floor TP:
And here's Cooking Station (no tp/rt):
Hmm... well so far there's a few custom textures, and of course the grinder is a custom prop. I'll be making a goofy "skulk-dog" mascot for the "Reception" area (renamed from "The View"). I've also made a custom door frame prop, which I don't think anybody has seen yet (unless it made it into the old map, I don't remember). I'll probably make a few more.