Can the folks posting here who oppose the idea of changing the mechanics of the game so that the go-to maneuver when under attack as a marine is to just run, jump, change direction, repeat until dead or enemy is killed comment on WHY they do not want to see this changed? I mean really its such a stupid mechanic to have in a game isn't it? Why not find another way to balance the marine?
I think the game should be more about tactics and working with your fellow marines to cover eachother and check corners. If you fail to check a corner and a skulk gets at your feet you screwed up your last ditch effort SHOULD be to just 180 spin and start shooting and hope your teammates save your ass. None of this bouncey bounce super-fun-house, "I got a pogo stick up my ass" crap. You guys even state that a good skulk has no problem hitting a marine despite his jumpy efforts? Then WHY bother with it in the first place?? It looks ridiculous, it feels ridiculous to do, and the game could work without it.
What I am suggesting is to penalize a marine for jumping by disabling his weapon for a split second after he jumps, then mid air once his gun is operational, reducing his weapons accuracy significantly until he lands. Also the marine will have reduced movement speed for a few tenths of a second after landing as he regains his footing. This will make jumping still useful for all things it should be useful for, except going into a crazy spastic jumping seizure every time an alien appears.
Now you may be saying "Oh Joe I disagree my good sir, because then marines will be too easy to kill." My answer to that is to balance the base marine vs base skulk battles by other methods, such as but not limited to: buff marines movement speed, particularly when running backwards. Buff starting marine health, or reduce skulk bite power. Any number of things could be done to balance the early game without this NBA marine mechanic.
Okay? Buff marine starting health how? They already take three bites, or two + parasite right now. Marines have been at 100/30 to start with for over a decade back in NS1, and before that, it was 100/25 where they straight up died in two bites without having to prime them with a parasite.
Reducing skulk bite power influences their strength throughout the entire game, and not just early game. This effects their ability to harass RTs and take down structures as well, and significantly more balance changes would likely have to be made to even that change out.
How likely is it that an alien with all those spikes and constantly fly there if at all? It looks stupid and is just really annoying, I don't understand why the allowed tactic in this game is for Aliens to just fly around in spheres.
How likely is it that a forum admin with all those bans and constantly close threads here if at all? It looks stupid and is just really annoying, I don't understand why the allowed tactic in this forum is for Admins to just go in discussions.
Can the folks posting here who oppose the idea of changing the mechanics of the game so that the go-to maneuver when under attack as a marine is to just run, jump, change direction, repeat until dead or enemy is killed comment on WHY they do not want to see this changed?
Bare in mind most of the people who play this game are fairly old-school gamers at the least, we come from a time when platform games were the forefront of game technology so jumping was a mechanic in pretty much every game.
It's one of those 'freedom' things. I'd be pissed off if I couldn't jump in real life and I get pissed off when I can't jump in computer games :P
I think when you get down to it, most of us just don't see a problem.
If you took away marine jumping completely, you may as well also take away the ability to strafe left-right to throw off skulks aim, because thats unrealistic and subjectively a little silly looking too. If a wolf came at you would you shimmy back and forth like a moron desperately needing to pee?
Trust me, if we wanted 'pogo stick' jumping mechanics we could do much worse
What I am suggesting is to penalize a marine for jumping by disabling his weapon for a split second after he jumps, then mid air once his gun is operational, reducing his weapons accuracy significantly until he lands. Also the marine will have reduced movement speed for a few tenths of a second after landing as he regains his footing.
- Movement speed is already hindered when you land (you cant land and instantly go into a sprint, you have to take a few steps before you can sprint OR JUMP AGAIN )
- Funnily enough if you reduced marine accuracy in this way, that'd be a huge buff for marines and would likely be abused as much as possible. Suddenly bullets are flying away from your crosshair and OH, you're doing damage to a skulk that you're not actually aiming at. This mechanic would get abused by the skilled and provide meaningless fluff in the way of progress for newbs.
Now you may be saying "Oh Joe I disagree my good sir, because then marines will be too easy to kill." My answer to that is to balance the base marine vs base skulk battles by other methods, such as but not limited to: buff marines movement speed, particularly when running backwards. Buff starting marine health, or reduce skulk bite power. Any number of things could be done to balance the early game without this NBA marine mechanic.
None of your suggestions would balance the game or result in mechanics anyone could take seriously.
- Buff marines movement speed, particularly when running backwards
So now if a marine sees you before you get close to him, he can RUN BACKWARDS AT NORMAL SPEED WHILE FIRING. I sense problems with this one. Problems with 'being able to catch up with marines', strangely the same problem people imagined out of thin air when they learned there was a strafe jump buff in place.
Buffing marine speed at all would also result in crazy shimmying left-right as already mentioned.
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TLDR; (Freedom of) movement is a big part of the game. So is aiming. So is momentum and the very act of engaging. Alot of NS1 mechanics borrow from the half life engine's physics bugs to create 'skill-based movement' and this game is not meant to differ. It's part of the game, and the people who play it enjoy that part.
I can see it from both points of view, but I'm kind of split on what to DO about the whole thing, if anything.
One part of me thinks skulk bites should take jumping marines back to the floor and hinder their movement for a halfsecond or so.
The other part of me wants to see strafe jumping bought back in :P
You know strafe jumping was never a problem right?
I work as an IT tech, and there's a funny phenomenon I see in that when one user has a problem or fault with their equipment, all of a sudden the users they work with think they are affected by this problem, even if they're not.
We have phones that display a little message 'ISDN line release' when the line is cut. One person in the sales office was a techno-retard and took it upon herself to believe this was some kind of technical error message rather than an indication that the person she was speaking to had hung up. All of a sudden the entire sales office is getting the 'ISDN line release problem'. I had to explain to them that they were getting hung up on and nothing had changed except the phones were displaying the message.
In a similar vein, if the changelog didnt have the words "marine strafe jump buffed" in it, nobody would have noticed or cared. If it had that message had been there but strafe jump hadn't actually been buffed, I expect we'd still see the same people complaining about it.
Or in short: We like a mechanic that takes skillful handling of the keyboard and mouse over a binary luck based mechanic.
Reducing the ways a marine can handle a skulk attack at melee range brings us closer to a dice roll mechanic (chose your hiding place, if you are lucky and the marine doesn't look, you kill him. If he looks, he shoots you first. -> boring). The aim + movement should decide who is better. Not a mostly luck based dice roll.
What I loved about NS1 was that success was a lot about technique. Most of the skill-based features have been lost in the transition from NS1 to NS2, but there are still some strips of them left. Removing them one by one in favor of more realistic gameplay won't make the game more interesting and it certainly won't lead to an emphasis of the strategic features of gameplay - it will make everything stale and binary, and it will minimise the impact the player's own skills have on the outcome of an encounter, which is exactly the opposite a good, engaging game should be doing.
If you took away marine jumping completely, you may as well also take away the ability to strafe left-right to throw off skulks aim, because thats unrealistic and subjectively a little silly looking too.
Read title again. The emphasis is on "constantly jump all the time".
One part of me thinks skulk bites should take jumping marines back to the floor and hinder their movement for a halfsecond or so.
Yes! Or make it like it is in CS:S where you like stop after jump very shortly.
Or in short: We like a mechanic that takes skillful handling of the keyboard...
There is no skill involved in pressing spacebar + W,A,S,D
... and mouse over a binary luck based mechanic. Reducing the ways a marine can handle a skulk attack at melee range brings us closer to a dice roll mechanic (chose your hiding place, if you are lucky and the marine doesn't look, you kill him. If he looks, he shoots you first. -> boring). The aim + movement should decide who is better. Not a mostly luck based dice roll.
So how is it now for Skulks, is it not a dice roll for them right now? A good hiding place + careless Marine should reward you with a kill right? However it doesn't. Actually you must have a lucky roll with your dice or be extremly capable. Also takes so much more effort to prepare and get a bite in right now.
Or in short: We like a mechanic that takes skillful handling of the keyboard...
There is no skill involved in pressing spacebar + W,A,S,D
... and mouse over a binary luck based mechanic. Reducing the ways a marine can handle a skulk attack at melee range brings us closer to a dice roll mechanic (chose your hiding place, if you are lucky and the marine doesn't look, you kill him. If he looks, he shoots you first. -> boring). The aim + movement should decide who is better. Not a mostly luck based dice roll.
So how is it now for Skulks, is it not a dice roll for them right now? A good hiding place + careless Marine should reward you with a kill right? However it doesn't. Actually you must have a lucky roll with your dice or be extremly capable. Also takes so much more effort to prepare and get a bite in right now.
Wait, so there is NO SKILL in using the keyboard, but if you use the mouse you can become 'extremely capable' (in other words, SKILLED)?
Your post makes no sense.
@Roobubba You can maintain jump and walk forever, so pretty much constantly "jump around". I didn't say you couldn't take the mechanic to the extreme involving Shift and Ctrl and time it perfectly and whatnot. Thats skill, I agree there. However you can get around with just Space + W,A,S,D. There is not skill needed for that. (With get around I mean survive, survive long enough that you either kill the Skulk or a m8 comes and does for you).
As Skulk you have to invest way more effort to survive in an engagement and even get a kill off.
Or in short: We like a mechanic that takes skillful handling of the keyboard...
There is no skill involved in pressing spacebar + W,A,S,D
Sure there is skill in jumping at the right moment. It's like saying: There is no skill in pushing a mouse over a pad + hitting one button.
You can't just spam jump or you will become immobile. A marine jumping on the same spot is not really difficult to hit as skulk.
You also need to adjust to the interp to jump before the skulk hits you on his screen.
I'm really sure there IS skill in using your movement options right.
... and mouse over a binary luck based mechanic. Reducing the ways a marine can handle a skulk attack at melee range brings us closer to a dice roll mechanic (chose your hiding place, if you are lucky and the marine doesn't look, you kill him. If he looks, he shoots you first. -> boring). The aim + movement should decide who is better. Not a mostly luck based dice roll.
So how is it now for Skulks, is it not a dice roll for them right now? A good hiding place + careless Marine should reward you with a kill right? However it doesn't. Actually you must have a lucky roll with your dice or be extremly capable. Also takes so much more effort to prepare and get a bite in right now.
Partly it is in the game, yes. But that is the good thing. What you and JoeDerp want is already in the game. You can try to ambush marines already and yes it is heavily dependent of the awareness/skill of the player you try to ambush. And as you don't know who the player is you try to ambush, it is luck.
But the point is, it isn't the only deciding aspect. You can't rely only on your luck. You don't get the kill for free when you are lucky. Instead you have to compete with the other player and show that you are more skilled in aim and movement then him. Ambushing can just give you an advantage.
So again in short words. What you two want is reducing the game to a game of chance / dice. While it currently is a game of skill paired with some aspects of chance.
OK. Here's a test. As soon as you spawn, start running. Three seconds later spam the space bar. See how long it takes you to get across the map. That is, if you don't die first.
Simple prove: The insta-kill ability in the last AvP multiplayer was hated by many. It is a binary mechanic as you want it. Come close to an enemy and you get a free kill handed.
Jumping marines are painful for new skulk. Whereas, it's "expected" by vets skulk.
I think it's just part of the learning curve. Fast-travel is a movement skill for skulk. Dodging is a movement skill for marines.
The marine learn to time his jump and the skulk learn to time his bites. That's it.
However, i'm not fan of "cat packs" jumping marines. I don't like that a marine could run faster than a skulk, even at a TRES cost.
Sure there is skill in jumping at the right moment. It's like saying: There is no skill in pushing a mouse over a pad + hitting one button.
Heh right okay. Still not very difficult to do that if you ask me. Even the Rookies manage it more or less successful, after seeing once from a more experienced player.
OK. Here's a test. As soon as you spawn, start running. Three seconds later spam the space bar. See how long it takes you to get across the map. That is, if you don't die first.
Who was talking about mindlessly spamming jump key?
You can't rely only on your luck. You don't get the kill for free when you are lucky. Instead you have to compete with the other player and show that you are more skilled in aim and movement then him. Ambushing can just give you an advantage.
Let's talk about whats really bugging people and causing them to open threads like this one on and on. (Apart from Marine jump looking silly / unrealistic). In a basic skulk and marine 1vs1 environment: At range Marine wins 100%. The Skulk can parasite, nothing else.
Up close, the Marine still has the upper-hand. An ambush can lower the Marines advantage but thats it. Reason: Marine jump mechanic how it currently is.
It's just frustrating when you work one's butt of as a Skulk, but you die anyway. While the Marine's effort wasn't all that big.
A Skulk shouldn't get a free kill handed if I manage to come close, as _Necro_ says. But it should be in his favor that moment.
Tbh, I skipped over the last 15 posts so my apologies if this was said already. The jump mechanic really isn't that ridiculous anymore. A marine can no longer do the 15ft backward strafe jump. If the argument is purely on the fact that a jumping marine looks stupid... well maybe you should go play Battlefield or ARMA.
Scenario: If a half decent marine gets ambushed by a half decent skulk, the marine can get off 1 (one) strafe jump. If he predicts the skulks movement he gains an additional half a second to track the skulk before it gets on the marines feet. Once the skulk is there and you already jumped once, jumping a second time won't do sh!t. After that first jump, you rely entirely on your aim and movement. If the skulk is bad and cannot kill you right away, you might be able to get a second decent strafe jump away but that entirely depends on if your fighting a derp skulk. Pubs who spam spacebar and don't move are trash. If you can't kill a stationary po-go marine, your skulk is trash.
I usually get 3-5 decent strafe jumps of, I must be pro at this it seems. (My aim is sh!t thats for sure, maybe thats why I'm concentrating in my jumping "skill" these days pfff)
Thats why marine positioning is SO important, if the skulks get close you have to jump around and look silly, which is embarrassing in front of your regiment.
And why we're even discussing balance issues with regards to 1v1 engagements I have no idea. It's a team game where the VAST MAJORITY of engagements are not 1v1.
Adding to that, why should a skulk ever win a 1v1 vs a marine anyway. That's not how the game works guys.
How about when the skulk successfully ambushes the marine? Should the skulk win then? You guys are basically stating that at the point where a skulk ambushes a marine and starts biting his back, the fight should still have a 50/50 chance for either player because the marine is just about as capable to dodge around as the skulk chasing after him. Personally I feel that is wrong. My opinion is that of the melee character ambushes the ranged character, and gets to melee range before the marine is aware, then he deserves a huge advantage! At this point even a below average skulk should win most of the time against a good marine. However this is not currently the case. The skulk is easily cheated of his victory as the marine repeatedly jump dodges away and with good accuracy can easily kill the less skilled skulk.
This is choosing the victor based almost entirely on "skill based movement" as you all put it. But really its not skill on the Marines part but lack of skill on the skulks part as far as predicting where the pogo stick will bounce to.
Also jumping over the skulks head while he bites you should not be allowed. At the very least I think something should be done to reward a skulk for landing a bite to slow the marine down. Its too frustrating to get a good ambush on a marine only to have him bounce away and kill you before you land the final bite. You say this makes the game binary? It doesn't, it makes it weigh more heavily on tactics, where right now battles are 90% decided on by 1.) Aiming ability and 2.) Micro managing movements during an engagement.
So why do you think the less skilled skulk who lands a proper ambush deserves to lose 100% of the time? I'm not saying noob ground skulks either, I'm talking about decent skulks vs good to high skill Marines.
Comments
I think the game should be more about tactics and working with your fellow marines to cover eachother and check corners. If you fail to check a corner and a skulk gets at your feet you screwed up your last ditch effort SHOULD be to just 180 spin and start shooting and hope your teammates save your ass. None of this bouncey bounce super-fun-house, "I got a pogo stick up my ass" crap. You guys even state that a good skulk has no problem hitting a marine despite his jumpy efforts? Then WHY bother with it in the first place?? It looks ridiculous, it feels ridiculous to do, and the game could work without it.
What I am suggesting is to penalize a marine for jumping by disabling his weapon for a split second after he jumps, then mid air once his gun is operational, reducing his weapons accuracy significantly until he lands. Also the marine will have reduced movement speed for a few tenths of a second after landing as he regains his footing. This will make jumping still useful for all things it should be useful for, except going into a crazy spastic jumping seizure every time an alien appears.
Now you may be saying "Oh Joe I disagree my good sir, because then marines will be too easy to kill." My answer to that is to balance the base marine vs base skulk battles by other methods, such as but not limited to: buff marines movement speed, particularly when running backwards. Buff starting marine health, or reduce skulk bite power. Any number of things could be done to balance the early game without this NBA marine mechanic.
Reducing skulk bite power influences their strength throughout the entire game, and not just early game. This effects their ability to harass RTs and take down structures as well, and significantly more balance changes would likely have to be made to even that change out.
It's like playing with *censored*
This is the first thing I think you've ever said that I can agree with.
It's like arguing with n00bs
Bare in mind most of the people who play this game are fairly old-school gamers at the least, we come from a time when platform games were the forefront of game technology so jumping was a mechanic in pretty much every game.
It's one of those 'freedom' things. I'd be pissed off if I couldn't jump in real life and I get pissed off when I can't jump in computer games :P
I think when you get down to it, most of us just don't see a problem.
If you took away marine jumping completely, you may as well also take away the ability to strafe left-right to throw off skulks aim, because thats unrealistic and subjectively a little silly looking too. If a wolf came at you would you shimmy back and forth like a moron desperately needing to pee?
Trust me, if we wanted 'pogo stick' jumping mechanics we could do much worse
It seperates people who can 1) aim, 2) react to combat situations appropriately, from those who can't.
- Movement speed is already hindered when you land (you cant land and instantly go into a sprint, you have to take a few steps before you can sprint OR JUMP AGAIN )
- Funnily enough if you reduced marine accuracy in this way, that'd be a huge buff for marines and would likely be abused as much as possible. Suddenly bullets are flying away from your crosshair and OH, you're doing damage to a skulk that you're not actually aiming at. This mechanic would get abused by the skilled and provide meaningless fluff in the way of progress for newbs.
None of your suggestions would balance the game or result in mechanics anyone could take seriously.
- Buff marines movement speed, particularly when running backwards
So now if a marine sees you before you get close to him, he can RUN BACKWARDS AT NORMAL SPEED WHILE FIRING. I sense problems with this one. Problems with 'being able to catch up with marines', strangely the same problem people imagined out of thin air when they learned there was a strafe jump buff in place.
Buffing marine speed at all would also result in crazy shimmying left-right as already mentioned.
~
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TLDR; (Freedom of) movement is a big part of the game. So is aiming. So is momentum and the very act of engaging. Alot of NS1 mechanics borrow from the half life engine's physics bugs to create 'skill-based movement' and this game is not meant to differ. It's part of the game, and the people who play it enjoy that part.
I can see it from both points of view, but I'm kind of split on what to DO about the whole thing, if anything.
One part of me thinks skulk bites should take jumping marines back to the floor and hinder their movement for a halfsecond or so.
The other part of me wants to see strafe jumping bought back in :P
I work as an IT tech, and there's a funny phenomenon I see in that when one user has a problem or fault with their equipment, all of a sudden the users they work with think they are affected by this problem, even if they're not.
We have phones that display a little message 'ISDN line release' when the line is cut. One person in the sales office was a techno-retard and took it upon herself to believe this was some kind of technical error message rather than an indication that the person she was speaking to had hung up. All of a sudden the entire sales office is getting the 'ISDN line release problem'. I had to explain to them that they were getting hung up on and nothing had changed except the phones were displaying the message.
In a similar vein, if the changelog didnt have the words "marine strafe jump buffed" in it, nobody would have noticed or cared. If it had that message had been there but strafe jump hadn't actually been buffed, I expect we'd still see the same people complaining about it.
Reducing the ways a marine can handle a skulk attack at melee range brings us closer to a dice roll mechanic (chose your hiding place, if you are lucky and the marine doesn't look, you kill him. If he looks, he shoots you first. -> boring). The aim + movement should decide who is better. Not a mostly luck based dice roll.
Yes! Or make it like it is in CS:S where you like stop after jump very shortly.
@_Necro_ There is no skill involved in pressing spacebar + W,A,S,D So how is it now for Skulks, is it not a dice roll for them right now? A good hiding place + careless Marine should reward you with a kill right? However it doesn't. Actually you must have a lucky roll with your dice or be extremly capable. Also takes so much more effort to prepare and get a bite in right now.
Wait, so there is NO SKILL in using the keyboard, but if you use the mouse you can become 'extremely capable' (in other words, SKILLED)?
Your post makes no sense.
As Skulk you have to invest way more effort to survive in an engagement and even get a kill off.
Sure there is skill in jumping at the right moment. It's like saying: There is no skill in pushing a mouse over a pad + hitting one button.
You can't just spam jump or you will become immobile. A marine jumping on the same spot is not really difficult to hit as skulk.
You also need to adjust to the interp to jump before the skulk hits you on his screen.
I'm really sure there IS skill in using your movement options right.
Partly it is in the game, yes. But that is the good thing. What you and JoeDerp want is already in the game. You can try to ambush marines already and yes it is heavily dependent of the awareness/skill of the player you try to ambush. And as you don't know who the player is you try to ambush, it is luck.
But the point is, it isn't the only deciding aspect. You can't rely only on your luck. You don't get the kill for free when you are lucky. Instead you have to compete with the other player and show that you are more skilled in aim and movement then him. Ambushing can just give you an advantage.
So again in short words. What you two want is reducing the game to a game of chance / dice. While it currently is a game of skill paired with some aspects of chance.
/thread. lululz
I think it's just part of the learning curve. Fast-travel is a movement skill for skulk. Dodging is a movement skill for marines.
The marine learn to time his jump and the skulk learn to time his bites. That's it.
However, i'm not fan of "cat packs" jumping marines. I don't like that a marine could run faster than a skulk, even at a TRES cost.
Who was talking about mindlessly spamming jump key?
Let's talk about whats really bugging people and causing them to open threads like this one on and on. (Apart from Marine jump looking silly / unrealistic). In a basic skulk and marine 1vs1 environment: At range Marine wins 100%. The Skulk can parasite, nothing else.
Up close, the Marine still has the upper-hand. An ambush can lower the Marines advantage but thats it. Reason: Marine jump mechanic how it currently is.
It's just frustrating when you work one's butt of as a Skulk, but you die anyway. While the Marine's effort wasn't all that big.
A Skulk shouldn't get a free kill handed if I manage to come close, as _Necro_ says. But it should be in his favor that moment.
Also lol, constantly, and all the time.
Scenario: If a half decent marine gets ambushed by a half decent skulk, the marine can get off 1 (one) strafe jump. If he predicts the skulks movement he gains an additional half a second to track the skulk before it gets on the marines feet. Once the skulk is there and you already jumped once, jumping a second time won't do sh!t. After that first jump, you rely entirely on your aim and movement. If the skulk is bad and cannot kill you right away, you might be able to get a second decent strafe jump away but that entirely depends on if your fighting a derp skulk. Pubs who spam spacebar and don't move are trash. If you can't kill a stationary po-go marine, your skulk is trash.
It's really that simple.
This and NS1 (which had even more movement based skill) are the only games I've ever played so much.
That's why I don't want the mechanics that define the game to change. Go try NS1 skulk.
This is truly a learn to play the game issue. Because it's what defines the game as itself.
This is choosing the victor based almost entirely on "skill based movement" as you all put it. But really its not skill on the Marines part but lack of skill on the skulks part as far as predicting where the pogo stick will bounce to.
Also jumping over the skulks head while he bites you should not be allowed. At the very least I think something should be done to reward a skulk for landing a bite to slow the marine down. Its too frustrating to get a good ambush on a marine only to have him bounce away and kill you before you land the final bite. You say this makes the game binary? It doesn't, it makes it weigh more heavily on tactics, where right now battles are 90% decided on by 1.) Aiming ability and 2.) Micro managing movements during an engagement.
So why do you think the less skilled skulk who lands a proper ambush deserves to lose 100% of the time? I'm not saying noob ground skulks either, I'm talking about decent skulks vs good to high skill Marines.
however, this shouldn't guarantee a free kill.
but i agree that the bite-bite-180°-BAM-shotgun is really frustrating when skulking. That's why it says in tips that "there is strengh in number"