Honestly, I rarely jump when being attacked and I can handle multiple skulks. If you rely on jumping to take care of a single skulk than maybe you should reconsider FPS games. I still believe that there should be a more aggressive slowdown when landing from jumps for marines.
How about when the skulk successfully ambushes the marine? Should the skulk win then? You guys are basically stating that at the point where a skulk ambushes a marine and starts biting his back, the fight should still have a 50/50 chance for either player because the marine is just about as capable to dodge around as the skulk chasing after him. Personally I feel that is wrong. My opinion is that of the melee character ambushes the ranged character, and gets to melee range before the marine is aware, then he deserves a huge advantage! At this point even a below average skulk should win most of the time against a good marine. However this is not currently the case. The skulk is easily cheated of his victory as the marine repeatedly jump dodges away and with good accuracy can easily kill the less skilled skulk.
This is choosing the victor based almost entirely on "skill based movement" as you all put it. But really its not skill on the Marines part but lack of skill on the skulks part as far as predicting where the pogo stick will bounce to.
Also jumping over the skulks head while he bites you should not be allowed. At the very least I think something should be done to reward a skulk for landing a bite to slow the marine down. Its too frustrating to get a good ambush on a marine only to have him bounce away and kill you before you land the final bite. You say this makes the game binary? It doesn't, it makes it weigh more heavily on tactics, where right now battles are 90% decided on by 1.) Aiming ability and 2.) Micro managing movements during an engagement.
So why do you think the less skilled skulk who lands a proper ambush deserves to lose 100% of the time? I'm not saying noob ground skulks either, I'm talking about decent skulks vs good to high skill Marines.
Well then your opinion is wrong. The auto-win scenario for successful ambushes are in other games like AvP and they are sh!t. This is a skill based game. 9/10 times a skulk lands a good ambush on a solo marine, the marine will die. If the skulk lets the marine get away from him then its his own fault (and or nano/meds)
Why are we back to this 'repetitive jump?' Who does this. Read my previous post please. Spamming jump does absolutely nothing against any skulk who has half decent movement. If a marine jumps over your head, then derp... you messed up. Don't hold down 'w' during the entire engagement and watch the marines movement.
where right now battles are 90% decided on by 1.) Aiming ability and 2.) Micro managing movements during an engagement.
Yeah... that's kinda how skill based games work. Utilizing good aim and movements to win. The person who has the better skills has the upper hand in any engagement. If the marine doesn't check his corners and gets ambushed in the first place, he automatically no longer has the advantage. But this does not mean he should have a 0% chance on surviving an engagement.
You need to see the bigger picture her @joederp.
The ability for marines to get around the map is worse than aliens. However it's more important for marines to hold more extractors than alien harvesters for economic reasons. If aliens win the same number of engagements as marines, they will win unless marines pull off the early phase tech route (which is generally terrible for good teams as marines really need upgrades to compete). This is because aliens can cover ground more effectively.
Marines actually need to win the majority of their engagements (which may mean aliens retreating rather than dying) in order to win the game.
Josh, when did I say the ambush should be auto win? I didn't. I said it should be worth more than it currently is. I am a mediocre skulk but play with high skilled players, and I can tell you that about 60% of the time I ambush someone they are able to bouncy bounce out of sight or out of bite range long enough to kill me. It feels like I've been cheated because I did what the skulk was designed to do, but the marine was able to utilize this glitchy mechanic to win. I just don't agree that this jump dodge should be so effective when the marine has effectively failed at keeping his character in its advantageous position which is out of melee range. He failed to notice my ambush but guess what, that doesn't matter because I was not able to predict which way he would bounce over my head? Its just a bad mechanic. I've been playing PC games for 15 years and have played cs since it came out as well as ns1 and I have never had this complaint in a game before other than the hl1 bunny hop mechanic. So trust me when say I'm not some noob who wants auto win here. I'm saying just because you guys have this mechanic mastered does not make it a good mechanic. There ARE ways to balance this game without it. People shot my ideas down but really didn't bother trying to come up with other solutions because everyone is just stuck in "argue" mode instead of "discussion".
We could increase the time It takes for a marine to get up to speed after landing a jump. We could increase the acceleration of skulks on the ground when below a certain speed. Those two things would resolve this for medium to low skilled players and would not affect high skilled players since they really should not be relying on this mechanic to survive in the first place.
Partially, yes. Would you argue that the higher skilled marine should auto win regardless of my tactics as a skulk? Regardless of how smart I play and how careless he is? Simply because he has better aim and I cannot predict his reaction jump direction I should always lose?
Partially, yes. Would you argue that the higher skilled marine should auto win regardless of my tactics as a skulk? Regardless of how smart I play and how careless he is? Simply because he has better aim and I cannot predict his reaction jump direction I should always lose?
Considering this is an fps first and an rts second, yeah.
The higher skilled player 'should' win unless he messes up. The successful ambush raises the weaker player's (the skulk) chances of winning but should not in any way guarantee it.
You guys really don't see an issue with the ranged player have such good odds at melee range while the melee player has 0 chance at range? That really seems balanced to you?
The ranged player doesn't have good odds. In fact, they have drastically lower odds if they get ambushed.
Like you said... your skulk is mediocre and you are playing against marines who know what they are doing. There really isn't any issue there. If you ambush a marine that is around your own personal skill level, your ambush win rate will go up quite a bit.
That's part of what makes the game interesting, because it's not as if the melee players are completely bereft of the tools needed to close the distance with a ranged player, just as the ranged players aren't turned into mewling helpless kittens the instant someone manages to actually get into melee with them.
Tricky movement and snap aiming = win over tactics and playing smart? I thought for a moment i was posting on a CS forum. I expected more from this game / community which claims to not be a cookie cutter fps game.
Tactics only work if you can execute them well. From what it sounds you do fine getting the ambush on a marine but lack the mechanical skills to finish the job.
I find it funny you insult cs when in an average match on there I find significantly more tactics and teamplay then on NS2. CS is a game where you need strong teamplay and strong tactics to win, but just like ns2, it doesnt matter if you outplay your opponent really hard if you can't shoot them, or any competitive shooter ever made for that matter.
Although I agree with your overall point Ace... CS doesn't have 'significantly more tactics and teamplay' at a competitive level. Both games boil down to lane blocking and predicting your enemies moves. Anyway that's an irrelevant debate :P
I didn't really mean at a competitive level, I more meant an average game for me. In ns2 I'm lucky if half the people on my team are even listening to me. In cs I can just que up competitive and can get some solid games without too much hassle. Although yeah thats probably an unfair comparison, its probably why I've stopped playing ns2 so much.
The only real reason I play it now is just to play with friends, which is also wonderfully challenging in ns2 thanks to the way teams work.
Its laughable how some people here defend the jumping as beeing uber skillful play and say a the same time that failing good skulk ambush is a l2p issue.
Its laughable how some people here defend the jumping as beeing uber skillful play and say a the same time that failing good skulk ambush is a l2p issue.
If you ambush someone and miss all your bites and the marine lands all his hits, yes it is a l2p issue.
Its no point arguing anymore... You just dont want to admit that the jumpy stuff is too easy to perform for what benefit it gives. You appease yourselfe that the skulk attacking you was just bad, but deep inside you knew full well that you should have died in that perfect ambush if not for those 1, 2 jumps.
"No point arguing because you're clearly wrong and you know you are and here's how you really feel." Thanks for explaining my real thoughts, I needed that.
Tricky movement and snap aiming = win over tactics and playing smart? I thought for a moment i was posting on a CS forum. I expected more from this game / community which claims to not be a cookie cutter fps game.
This is a skill based fps, you can only apply tactics & smarts if assuming both players/teams are at an equal level.
Skill first, tactics/smarts second.
Fyi, this game is crazy tactical at the competitive level, you just need two equal teams to see it.
Its laughable how some people here defend the jumping as beeing uber skillful play and say a the same time that failing good skulk ambush is a l2p issue.
If you ambush someone and miss all your bites and the marine lands all his hits, yes it is a l2p issue.
Its laughable how some people here defend the jumping as beeing uber skillful play and say a the same time that failing good skulk ambush is a l2p issue.
If you ambush someone and miss all your bites and the marine lands all his hits, yes it is a l2p issue.
"I dont miss bites except when I miss"
"is the point of a jump when in danger to dodge the danger"
No.. I'm sorry, no offense meant, but that's wrong and it bugs me that you say that.
You recognize that a skulk should have the advantage at melee range - but you will not recognize that marines, similarly, only have an advantage beyond melee range??
Neither encounter, whether melee or at a distance, is 100% win or 100% lose.
Still not very difficult to do that if you ask me. Even the Rookies manage it more or less successful, after seeing once from a more experienced player.
:-t
And all you have to tell a rookie skulk is "Time your bites and track the marine's movement" ?
Just like you tell those rookie rines "Time your jump and track the alien movement".........
Its no point arguing anymore... You just dont want to admit that the jumpy stuff is too easy to perform for what benefit it gives. You appease yourselfe that the skulk attacking you was just bad, but deep inside you knew full well that you should have died in that perfect ambush if not for those 1, 2 jumps.
If you've run out of arguments, or have no rebuttal, it'd be far more dignified to just say as such instead of accusing others of denial. It just doesn't contribute much to the topic.
No.. I'm sorry, no offense meant, but that's wrong and it bugs me that you say that.
You recognize that a skulk should have the advantage at melee range - but you will not recognize that marines, similarly, only have an advantage beyond melee range??
Neither encounter, whether melee or at a distance, is 100% win or 100% lose.
Still not very difficult to do that if you ask me. Even the Rookies manage it more or less successful, after seeing once from a more experienced player.
:-t
And all you have to tell a rookie skulk is "Time your bites and track the marine's movement" ?
Just like you tell those rookie rines "Time your jump and track the alien movement".........
Its no point arguing anymore... You just dont want to admit that the jumpy stuff is too easy to perform for what benefit it gives. You appease yourselfe that the skulk attacking you was just bad, but deep inside you knew full well that you should have died in that perfect ambush if not for those 1, 2 jumps.
If you've run out of arguments, or have no rebuttal, it'd be far more dignified to just say as such instead of accusing others of denial. It just doesn't contribute much to the topic.
I think what he is saying is that at range skulks has about 0.0001% chance of killing the marine (the 0.0001% is parasite killing an afk marine).
Yet in melee range marines have at least a 50-50 chance of winning engagement, more with w3 a3.
Marines have a clear advantage at range against every alien lifeform, far beyond the advantage aliens have in melee (its arguable that they have any advantage at all...and not simply a 50-50 chance)
Marines jumping around like rabbits on crack is now and has been for a long time an issue.
The limited view for aliens coupled with the teeth etc make following a jumping marine nigh on impossible, you have to predict rather than track his movement.
The ability for the marine to keep shooting and reloading whilst bouncing around in and out of the aliens FOV swings things too far.
I can stay alive as a marine long after I should be dead...thanks to jumping up and around on objects.
The slow down does not occur if you jump up.
Its perverse that people are saying marines should have a chance in melee yet ignore the complete inability of aliens to secure a kill at range (aliens only real option is avoidance...which is not really helpful at getting a kill at range).
There have been some really good solutions put up by those of us who are sick of this continued imbalance such as removing the firing/reloading ability whilst jumping and/or replacing the jump with a roll, adding a stamina bar to limit the number of jumps (perhaps 2 in a 5 second period before you need to wait 2-4 sec to jump again).
All of these would still allow a marine some chance in melee but would reduce their success rate and make it easier for skulks to keep track of a marine in melee.
But whilst we continue to cater only to those who have invested massive slabs of time in learning mechanics crucial to be able to enjoy playing 1 of the sides...we will continue to see the community stagnate and new players turned off.
This will reduce the overall player base, the number of comp players and the overall life span of the game.
Its a shame that people seem so determined to make the game inaccessible to new players unless they invest half their life to learning all 5 alien lifeforms and how to make the most of the movement nuances.
You really really should stop theory crafting and just play the game. There should always be a chance for a marine to win at close range. Getting close to a marine is easy, walljumping, esp with celerity or leap makes clearing the gap between you and a marine really easy. The hard part is biting him, if he couldnt move you could demolish marines so easily.
Game works fine right now, stop this whole "well technically aliens cant win at range but marines can win at range and in melee so technically if you think about its not balanced"
I mean honestly, who the fuck takes a fight at range as a skulk? Why are we even talking about this?
Game is asymmetrical, aliens != marines, just play the game.
How likely is it that an alien with all that blades and constantly teleport that if at all? It looks stupid and is just really annoying, I don't understand why the allowed tactic in this game is for Aliens to just blink around in random places.
How likely is it that an developer with all that coding and constantly limit jump if at all? It looks stupid and is just really annoying, I don't understand why the disallowed tactic in this game is for Marines to just not be able to jump around all the time.
Comments
Well then your opinion is wrong. The auto-win scenario for successful ambushes are in other games like AvP and they are sh!t. This is a skill based game. 9/10 times a skulk lands a good ambush on a solo marine, the marine will die. If the skulk lets the marine get away from him then its his own fault (and or nano/meds)
Why are we back to this 'repetitive jump?' Who does this. Read my previous post please. Spamming jump does absolutely nothing against any skulk who has half decent movement. If a marine jumps over your head, then derp... you messed up. Don't hold down 'w' during the entire engagement and watch the marines movement.
Yeah... that's kinda how skill based games work. Utilizing good aim and movements to win. The person who has the better skills has the upper hand in any engagement. If the marine doesn't check his corners and gets ambushed in the first place, he automatically no longer has the advantage. But this does not mean he should have a 0% chance on surviving an engagement.
The ability for marines to get around the map is worse than aliens. However it's more important for marines to hold more extractors than alien harvesters for economic reasons. If aliens win the same number of engagements as marines, they will win unless marines pull off the early phase tech route (which is generally terrible for good teams as marines really need upgrades to compete). This is because aliens can cover ground more effectively.
Marines actually need to win the majority of their engagements (which may mean aliens retreating rather than dying) in order to win the game.
We could increase the time It takes for a marine to get up to speed after landing a jump. We could increase the acceleration of skulks on the ground when below a certain speed. Those two things would resolve this for medium to low skilled players and would not affect high skilled players since they really should not be relying on this mechanic to survive in the first place.
And yet you blame the game for your losses.
Considering this is an fps first and an rts second, yeah.
The higher skilled player 'should' win unless he messes up. The successful ambush raises the weaker player's (the skulk) chances of winning but should not in any way guarantee it.
Like you said... your skulk is mediocre and you are playing against marines who know what they are doing. There really isn't any issue there. If you ambush a marine that is around your own personal skill level, your ambush win rate will go up quite a bit.
That's part of what makes the game interesting, because it's not as if the melee players are completely bereft of the tools needed to close the distance with a ranged player, just as the ranged players aren't turned into mewling helpless kittens the instant someone manages to actually get into melee with them.
If that doesn't make sense to you... I give up.
The only real reason I play it now is just to play with friends, which is also wonderfully challenging in ns2 thanks to the way teams work.
If you ambush someone and miss all your bites and the marine lands all his hits, yes it is a l2p issue.
"No point arguing because you're clearly wrong and you know you are and here's how you really feel." Thanks for explaining my real thoughts, I needed that.
This is a skill based fps, you can only apply tactics & smarts if assuming both players/teams are at an equal level.
Skill first, tactics/smarts second.
Fyi, this game is crazy tactical at the competitive level, you just need two equal teams to see it.
"I dont miss bites except when I miss"
"is the point of a jump when in danger to dodge the danger"
y-y-yes? Why is this hard to understand
You recognize that a skulk should have the advantage at melee range - but you will not recognize that marines, similarly, only have an advantage beyond melee range??
Neither encounter, whether melee or at a distance, is 100% win or 100% lose.
:-t
And all you have to tell a rookie skulk is "Time your bites and track the marine's movement" ?
Just like you tell those rookie rines "Time your jump and track the alien movement".........
If you've run out of arguments, or have no rebuttal, it'd be far more dignified to just say as such instead of accusing others of denial. It just doesn't contribute much to the topic.
Yet in melee range marines have at least a 50-50 chance of winning engagement, more with w3 a3.
Marines have a clear advantage at range against every alien lifeform, far beyond the advantage aliens have in melee (its arguable that they have any advantage at all...and not simply a 50-50 chance)
Marines jumping around like rabbits on crack is now and has been for a long time an issue.
The limited view for aliens coupled with the teeth etc make following a jumping marine nigh on impossible, you have to predict rather than track his movement.
The ability for the marine to keep shooting and reloading whilst bouncing around in and out of the aliens FOV swings things too far.
I can stay alive as a marine long after I should be dead...thanks to jumping up and around on objects.
The slow down does not occur if you jump up.
Its perverse that people are saying marines should have a chance in melee yet ignore the complete inability of aliens to secure a kill at range (aliens only real option is avoidance...which is not really helpful at getting a kill at range).
There have been some really good solutions put up by those of us who are sick of this continued imbalance such as removing the firing/reloading ability whilst jumping and/or replacing the jump with a roll, adding a stamina bar to limit the number of jumps (perhaps 2 in a 5 second period before you need to wait 2-4 sec to jump again).
All of these would still allow a marine some chance in melee but would reduce their success rate and make it easier for skulks to keep track of a marine in melee.
But whilst we continue to cater only to those who have invested massive slabs of time in learning mechanics crucial to be able to enjoy playing 1 of the sides...we will continue to see the community stagnate and new players turned off.
This will reduce the overall player base, the number of comp players and the overall life span of the game.
Its a shame that people seem so determined to make the game inaccessible to new players unless they invest half their life to learning all 5 alien lifeforms and how to make the most of the movement nuances.
Game works fine right now, stop this whole "well technically aliens cant win at range but marines can win at range and in melee so technically if you think about its not balanced"
I mean honestly, who the fuck takes a fight at range as a skulk? Why are we even talking about this?
Game is asymmetrical, aliens != marines, just play the game.
It's like playing Portal
It's like playing Counter-strike.