Cannon_FodderAUSBrisbane, AUJoin Date: 2013-06-23Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
@IronHorse had a chuckle when I read your post. So true. I am an above average pubber (would get owned by comp. players I am sure). But I don't feel the marine jump is OP. A while back, I felt the same as OP (remove marine jump). But after playing more (and the recent nerf), it feels ok. You MUST resist the urge to jump after the marine, because when you jump, you become level with him / her and you are easy to track. If you see them jump, just run under them and bite up. The butt is so fleshy and juicy mmmm. @hakenspit, if jump was removed a cele. skulk WILL take on marines very easily. You can close the gap so fast as a cele. skulk + wall jump. Once leap is up, you are unstoppable. I regularly take on A2 marines with leap. The odds really really tip in your favor once you get to close range. Remember, the marine must track you as well. Don't forget when you are fast, you should take evasive maneuvers. Don't jump into them expecting to kill them before they kill you, run around.
You really really should stop theory crafting and just play the game. There should always be a chance for a marine to win at close range. Getting close to a marine is easy, walljumping, esp with celerity or leap makes clearing the gap between you and a marine really easy. The hard part is biting him, if he couldnt move you could demolish marines so easily.
Game works fine right now, stop this whole "well technically aliens cant win at range but marines can win at range and in melee so technically if you think about its not balanced"
I mean honestly, who the fuck takes a fight at range as a skulk? Why are we even talking about this?
Game is asymmetrical, aliens != marines, just play the game.
Sorry but with over 3 years of playing ns2 I think I am doing more than simply theory crafting...there are a couple of hours of actual gameplay over that time.
Marines should have a chance at winning a melee combat but it should not be close to 50-50 which it is now, it should be much closer to the chances aliens have at range.
The options others have suggested (and I listed above) would still provide marines a chance...but have a down side to it.
Either a limit in the number of jumps in a set time period
Replace jump with dodge and allow marines to climb onto crates etc using the same dodge mechanic.
Make it so marines cant shoot whilst jumping or within 0.5 seconds of landing after jumping (excludes falling)
These would all help address what is a massive deterrent for most new players and why we have such poor retention rates for new players (of the 12 ppl I got into playing this game...I am the only 1 that still plays at all (sadly thats only about an hour or two every couple of weeks).
Running around saying LTP noobs or similar such comments are unhelpful as you are telling part of the community their opinion is worthless (which will lead to them stopping playing and not recommending the game).
I have through out the beta and since release tried to bring to attention the issues that impact the casual gamer, those of us who simply want to be able to hop in and easily pick the game up, have a few kills and a laughs.
Catering to the comp players does nothing to help/grow the grassroots of the community.
The whole marine jumping as a valid dodging tactic has been a long standing issue expressed by many different players over the journey...most that complained have now given up playing.
Hopefully UWE do listen and implement one of the suggestions in this thread to limit the benefit marines get from jumping.
@IronHorse had a chuckle when I read your post. So true. I am an above average pubber (would get owned by comp. players I am sure). But I don't feel the marine jump is OP. A while back, I felt the same as OP (remove marine jump). But after playing more (and the recent nerf), it feels ok. You MUST resist the urge to jump after the marine, because when you jump, you become level with him / her and you are easy to track. If you see them jump, just run under them and bite up. The butt is so fleshy and juicy mmmm.
@hakenspit, if jump was removed a cele. skulk WILL take on marines very easily. You can close the gap so fast as a cele. skulk + wall jump. Once leap is up, you are unstoppable. I regularly take on A2 marines with leap. The odds really really tip in your favor once you get to close range. Remember, the marine must track you as well. Don't forget when you are fast, you should take evasive maneuvers. Don't jump into them expecting to kill them before they kill you, run around.
Oh I can take down marines as a skulk, but I have invested a lot more time than most casual gamers would (I also played NS1 so I have a long standing love of NS).
The issues more about how hard it is to keep track of marines when they jump out of your view (thanks to those wonderful teeth (and marines moan about their hud clutter!!)
Also the suggestions I, and others, have put up do not remove jump totally (except where its replaced by a dodge function that doesn't involve teh marine being able to jump out of you FOV so easily) but rather adapt it.
For example if you could jump twice in 5 seconds before needing to wait a few seconds before you could jump again a marine could still dodge but just not constantly.
Or removing their ability to shoot whilst jumping which again still allows that marine to dodge but not kill the alien until he is on the ground.
Sadly it seems that this community is not really worried about attracting new players and ensuring the game is accessible and enjoyable by new players and not just experienced players.
IF the argument "At a distance, only marines can kill skulks - while at melee range, both are able to kill one another - essentially giving marines the advantage" is used in order to present an issue in the core balance, then you need to also factor in other asymmetrical mechanics instead of ignoring them...
Like the fact that aliens are the quick, mobile team with naturally regenerating health and ammunition that are designed around wearing down the enemy and are not burdened with every player on the field having to be responsible for their team's expansion through building, allowing for a more focused and offensive force.
I mean.. i could go on.. but you get the point, i hope.
Yes i am pulling the asymmetrical card here - because it is actually highly relevant when discussing this subject.
Saying the opening quote above / your argument, is akin to me saying "Its not fair that aliens have a mechanic (BB) that explicitly is designed to destroy marine T3 tech Exos, when marines have no equal mechanic to destroy Alien T3 tech Oni"
Its just very narrowly considered and is ignoring the plethora of interdependent mechanics which build upon the asymmetrical nature and balance of this game.
Lastly.. a jumping marine only tricks the uninitiated skulk who does not realize this is the easiest timeframe to track the marine!
Just like a ducking and weaving skulk only tricks the uninitiated shotgun marine who does not know to wait for that optimum melee range meat shot.
So, just because one skill (movement) is harder to learn than another (aim) - solely due to the familiarity of it from mass saturation in the market (fps games) - does not mean both are exempt from being equal L2P issues..
IF the argument "At a distance, only marines can kill skulks - while at melee range, both are able to kill one another - essentially giving marines the advantage" is used in order to present an issue in the core balance, then you need to also factor in other asymmetrical mechanics instead of ignoring them...
Like the fact that aliens are the quick, mobile team with naturally regenerating health and ammunition that are designed around wearing down the enemy and are not burdened with every player on the field having to be responsible for their team's expansion through building, allowing for a more focused and offensive force.
I mean.. i could go on.. but you get the point, i hope.
Yes i am pulling the asymmetrical card here - because it is actually highly relevant when discussing this subject.
Saying the opening quote above / your argument, is akin to me saying "Its not fair that aliens have a mechanic (BB) that explicitly is designed to destroy marine T3 tech Exos, when marines have no equal mechanic to destroy Alien T3 tech Oni"
Its just very narrowly considered and is ignoring the plethora of interdependent mechanics which build upon the asymmetrical nature and balance of this game.
Lastly.. a jumping marine only tricks the uninitiated skulk who does not realize this is the easiest timeframe to track the marine!
Just like a ducking and weaving skulk only tricks the uninitiated shotgun marine who does not know to wait for that optimum melee range meat shot.
So, just because one skill (movement) is harder to learn than another (aim) - solely due to the familiarity of it from mass saturation in the market (fps games) - does not mean both are exempt from being equal L2P issues..
@Ironhorse
The issue is with how jump works and the ridiculously unintuitive nature of it for new players, coupled with the outright advantage it offers (which some of the collision changes in past builds have illustrated at the extreme level).
I think you would agree that the reduction in vertical FOV as a result of "back of mouth" view makes tracking objects that pass over you difficult and it becomes something of trying to predict rather than track.
That a marine can continue to shoot and reload whilst jumping makes the loss of the marine all the more unforgiving to a new player.
You say it only offers an advantage against an unskilled skulk and that good skulks aren't thrown off.
Does that not really back up the calls to make the whole thing more new player friendly?
What is being suggested is not the removal of dodging but changing of how the mechanic functions.
Jump is legacy, it should not be how a big tough marine fights. Dodge should also have a downside (ie not firing/reloading) so it helps the marine live but not kill.
The game struggles to attract and retain new players, we all agree aliens takes a lot of time to learn all the classes and until you do you wont fully enjoy the game.
This is a massive deterrent for a lot of ppl and one that continues to course issues today.
Making the current dodge mechanic (ie jumping like a rabbit on crack) less powerful against new players would be a way of fixing this.
If it does not help against a good skulk all we would be doing is lowering the skill floor to make it more forgiving for new players.
If the deepest grudge against jump is that you lose line of sight, what if you could see the outline of marine through alien's skin when alien is at biting distance? That way you have both the teethrack (which I like) and full screen used like when playing marine. Problem solved.
The thing with "0% win chance at range, 50% chance up close" is, that combat doesn't happen at range. A skulk that combats a marine at range is doing something wrong. He has all the tools to evade the marine or to force the marine into melee range. Is it by ambush, by going for RTs or by engaging from behind.
The argument that the jump mechanic makes the game unnecessary difficult for new / casual players is also not right. If you change the jump mechanic so that marines have only 20% win chance in melee range combat, you won't make it easier for players with less skill. A mediocre skulk player against a mediocre marine may already win 70% of those battles. With your proposed change, he will be at nearly 100%. This just shifts the situation for new players from "ground skulking is frustrating" to "playing marine is frustrating". You don't make the game easier for less skilled players, you make it easier for alien players. This is a big difference.
And on top of all that you want to screw the balance (for nothing). Right now the early game is fairly good balanced. And it took month to get it to this point. This makes the statement "we will find other ways to balance marine vs skulk" not very convincing. It isn't that simple.
To your defense. I have met marines that were really good at outmaneuvering me with jump and it was frustrating. But it isn't the jump mechanic. It's their skill. They also were a real pain in the onus when they played aliens.
You recognize that a skulk should have the advantage at melee range - but you will not recognize that marines, similarly, only have an advantage beyond melee range?? Neither encounter, whether melee or at a distance, is 100% win or 100% lose.
Marines should be better at range and Skulks better at melee. I would find that fair actually. But for me it feels as if Marines still way win more melee engagements. (That doesnt mean Skulks should be "equaly" good at melee as Marines at range, that would make it AvP style sh!t as someone mentioned).
And all you have to tell a rookie skulk is "Time your bites and track the marine's movement" ?
Just like you tell those rookie rines "Time your jump and track the alien movement".........
Whats more easy to learn and do? The second. It followes the same pattern without much thinking needed. Space + W,A,S,D, some steps. Repeat. Also its not "track", but "predict". (Both sides)
If you've run out of arguments, or have no rebuttal, it'd be far more dignified to just say as such instead of accusing others of denial. It just doesn't contribute much to the topic.
My view is: Marine jump is too easy to perform for what benefit it gives.
The counterpoint is that predicting the movement and timing the bite is just as easy.
You can advocate the counterpoint easily here: That it is just a l2p issue and many skulks fail at it.
I however would have to prove that the jump is essential and easy to do also Marines win more melee engagements. See my dilemma? I can't prove it as we'll never see any stats in that regards. This is just how things feel for me right now. (Though it got loads better after recent patches)
NS2 is not and never will be 'new player friendly.' That is the reason the community isn't the size of CoD but that is also the reason why most of the players are so dedicated to the game.
Honestly, even if I didn't think all the anti-jumping arguments were incredibly stupid, everyone and their mom now owns NS2 after the last 8 Steam sales and now the HumbleBundle. Changing things to make the game easier to understand for new players at this point would be a waste of time.
Anyway. the game is relatively balanced after Sewlek put in hundreds of hours tweaking literally everything. Let's just be happy.
In summary,
-Jump dodging is only really effective at dodging bad skulks like myself, since I only have about 1000 hours in this game I clearly need more practice.
-We are stupid for asking for its modification because the jump dodge is essential to keep the game balanced.
-jump dodge does not effect good skulks as they can predict the marines movement to land follow up bites, so for those of us who attempt to visually check the marines location and react are suffering from l2p issues
The arguments to keep it the way it is are much more conflicting and inconsistent than those of us arguing for its change. Just saying.
Anyway I like the idea of simply giving skulks better visibility to see the marine jumping around better. As someone pointed out, if we simply made the marine outline visible through the skulks horribly obstructive mouth closing that would probably qualm many of the concerns of noobs like me who simply haven't put the time in to learn how this all works.
Although Im sure the people in this thread will have some obscure reason why that is the stupidest idea ever and will ruin the game..
In summary,
-Jump dodging is only really effective at dodging bad skulks like myself, since I only have about 1000 hours in this game I clearly need more practice.
-We are stupid for asking for its modification because the jump dodge is essential to keep the game balanced.
-jump dodge does not effect good skulks as they can predict the marines movement to land follow up bites, so for those of us who attempt to visually check the marines location and react are suffering from l2p issues
The arguments to keep it the way it is are much more conflicting and inconsistent than those of us arguing for its change. Just saying.
Anyway I like the idea of simply giving skulks better visibility to see the marine jumping around better. As someone pointed out, if we simply made the marine outline visible through the skulks horribly obstructive mouth closing that would probably qualm many of the concerns of noobs like me who simply haven't put the time in to learn how this all works.
Although Im sure the people in this thread will have some obscure reason why that is the stupidest idea ever and will ruin the game..
Do you hold down mouse 1 during engagements or do time your bites when you are looking at something (rhetorical question)? I could see being able to see through the teeth/gums when they are OPEN naturally being a pretty big fov increase on the Y axis. However, I personally don't feel the mouth being closed for the split second inhibits my aiming in any significant fashion....Though I suppose it would help for the times I wiff completely as the marine would be not in the center of my screen when I bit so I suppose the split second its closed he could move out of los..I dunno.
I know I lose marines more due to low contrast (aka the shitty default vision) then anything.
I aim each bite. I am running default contrast and default everything for that matter. And yes I typically lose the marine during a bite that landed, as my mouth opens he is gone and as I turn to find where he went I'm pretty much dead since the guys I play with have incredible aim.
Sorry josh I didn't realize we already covered the topic of how people complaining about losing track of marines jumping might be due to visual obstruction and not from the capabilities of the marine jump itself. Or did you just desperately want to find a use for that gif?
You don't see any credibility to the two topics being linked? Not worth discussing ? Sorry if we are wasting peoples precious time, everyone who feels this way can stop reading the thread if you are convinced it is devoid of relevant conversation.
Didn't say it wasn't worth discussing. You can discuss whatever you want it's a forum. I'm just saying that visual obstruction is unrelated. It happens during the topic this thread is about, that doesn't mean that it causes/is caused by it.
I tried to keep up with this thread... only now realizing how much time I've wasted. someone make a very simple in game mod to show how taking away or nerfing jump would b silly. just see how long it takes a comp player to get killed by alien ai with the nerf. just change a cpl numbers in the code.
I tried to keep up with this thread... only now realizing how much time I've wasted. someone make a very simple in game mod to show how taking away or nerfing jump would b silly. just see how long it takes a comp player to get killed by alien ai with the nerf. just change a cpl numbers in the code.
Better yet just unbind jump and tell me how long you survive, even in a pub.
How likely is it that a guy with all that broken English and constantly complain with INCORRECT information about jumping (that it's not limited, when it... actually is xD ) in some rage n00b post if at all? It looks stupid and is just really annoying, I don't understand why the allowed tactic in this forum is for Noobs to just complain around in threads and then not be ignored to death swiftly but get SIX (six, 6, VI) pages of responses before they are left to die where they belong.
NS2 is not and never will be 'new player friendly.' That is the reason the community isn't the size of CoD but that is also the reason why most of the players are so dedicated to the game.
Honestly, even if I didn't think all the anti-jumping arguments were incredibly stupid, everyone and their mom now owns NS2 after the last 8 Steam sales and now the HumbleBundle. Changing things to make the game easier to understand for new players at this point would be a waste of time.
Anyway. the game is relatively balanced after Sewlek put in hundreds of hours tweaking literally everything. Let's just be happy.
So we dont want to attract new players?
Only skilled players should find the game accessible?
Bit of a fucking elitist attitude to be showing.
How many people realise that without new players finding the game enjoyable is what allows a competetive scene to stay alive?
This is why CS brought in random HS and TF2 crits, both of these changes only helped narrow the gap between new, good and elite players allowing new players to still get some enjoyment and be willing to keep playing.
The unfriendly nature of the game is to the detriment of the game ability to grow in popularity and still be around being played in a few years (and not just by a core group of 700-900 players around the world).
Similar to the underslung GL some things need to be changed so that new players dont just get butt hurt all the time and can find element of the game enjoyable long enough to start to pick up some of the skill based movement thats so crucial to be half decent.
Holy shit, it's not that we don't want the game to attract new players and that only skilled people SHOULD play. It's that we don't want to dumb down the game so that while new players might enjoy it the rest of us hate its existence. Can it be done without doing that? Probably, but you better be fucking careful when you try because it's not going to be easy.
@joederp go and watch eissfeld's streams. His lerk play is an example of how premiere div players track marines. Notice how the marine is essentially never out of the middle of his screen when in close quarters combat?
And that is WITH the current marine evasion. Now I don't profess to be anywhere near that level, but I do play competitively and I can see that without the ability for marines to evade even at current levels, they will get wiped completely.
You may well have over 1000h played, probably 100h+ more than me, but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty more room for improvement (for both of us). This is why we balance around the top players and try to bring everyone else up in skill as much as possible.
The diabolical default vision is a separate matter and has a separate thread, best not to dilute either discussion by merging.
Oh please, it's a handy, available, high quality stream from a very high level comp player. Watch his skulking if you object to watching his lerking, the point still stands: if you can't track a marine like that, just watch the damned stream and get the point I'm making rather than nit picking over unimportant and irrelevant details.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited December 2013
If those of you who are advocating for change can understand the counter point that simply removing jump would horribly skew the balance.. Then the burden is up to you to provide a solution that provides a skill ceiling that isn't ankle high and yet is more rookie friendly. (even though I don't think you'll find any solution that eases the difficulty in learning movement)
The only proposal I've seen is a "dodge roll" which just sounds like a tasty snack for any skulk. No marine would dare use it. The other suggestion was no firing or reloading allowed during a jump.. Which is a better idea, but all it would result in is marines not jumping due to losing out on that precious time frame of sending bullets.. Which is basically the exact result as removing jump entirely because it would just be a noob trap.
SO... Let's direct this thread in a constructive direction (since many seem to not understand the way things are balanced or why mechanics are the way they are)
By having those advocating for change simply purpose a solution... Because just removing jump isn't one.
Edit : if you cannot see how that last claim isn't true / how removing jump would horribly imbalance the game currently while simultaneously watering it down.. Then you need not attempt to provide a suggestion, as you just don't understand the game at a basic level. I'm sorry if that sounds rude
I totally agree that removing jump entirely is a terrible idea, and honestly I'm not sure anyone actually is proposing that.
The main argument I am making is marine jump (when used as a dodge during combat) is very easy to evade medium to low skilled skulks but has very little effect (if any) on high skilled aliens. For ex, Roebubba in those videos it is clear that with his level of tracking the marine, the jump dodge is providing zero benefit for the marines, he bites you no matter what you do, your only hope is to do enough damage to kill him or cause him to flee before you are dead. This is the case for most competitive players I have seen and played with. The only exception is when jetpacks are available but that has nothing to with jumping. Therefore, the marine jump as a dodge mechanic is really only useful for players to gain an advantage against medium to low skilled aliens, which discounts the argument that modifying the marine jump would cause competitive play to be imbalanced. I truly believe if the jump mechanic were modified to further slow the marine upon landing requiring a solid 1 second to reach full running speed again it would have zero effect on comp players fighting other comp players.
It would however have an effect on high skilled players evading medium to low skilled players. Which honestly, I don't see a problem with that. I think that is the point some posters here were trying to make about player retention for this game. Nobody enjoys playing a game where one team completely dominates the entire game because they have 1-2 players who go 50:2 meanwhile the other team is lucky to hold one of their natural res nodes for more than 30 seconds at a time.
Furthermore, I do see new players who do decent as marines but are horrible as aliens. One reason for this is the marine is so close to your typical FPS, another reason is aliens are harder to learn, but another major contributor is how easy the marine jump is to use as a dodge even for newer players. It really is not a high skill cap mechanic like some of you have suggested, its actually incredibly easy do jump away from a skulk at an angle that makes it difficult for him to reacquire you if he is not very experienced. This mechanic actually causes a major imbalance in new players playing other new players from my experience. Have you ever noticed how everyone just stands in the marine door in green servers? Its not ONLY because marines are more familiar, its also because new players usually get demolished when they play aliens because they are useless at skulking especially early game.
So in summary, my thoughts on nerfing the marine jump to cause a more significant delay upon landing to give slower skulks time to catch up to the marine:
1.) have essentially zero effect on competitive play
2.) make aliens much less frustrating for low to medium skilled players
Comments
Marines should have a chance at winning a melee combat but it should not be close to 50-50 which it is now, it should be much closer to the chances aliens have at range.
The options others have suggested (and I listed above) would still provide marines a chance...but have a down side to it.
Either a limit in the number of jumps in a set time period
Replace jump with dodge and allow marines to climb onto crates etc using the same dodge mechanic.
Make it so marines cant shoot whilst jumping or within 0.5 seconds of landing after jumping (excludes falling)
These would all help address what is a massive deterrent for most new players and why we have such poor retention rates for new players (of the 12 ppl I got into playing this game...I am the only 1 that still plays at all (sadly thats only about an hour or two every couple of weeks).
Running around saying LTP noobs or similar such comments are unhelpful as you are telling part of the community their opinion is worthless (which will lead to them stopping playing and not recommending the game).
I have through out the beta and since release tried to bring to attention the issues that impact the casual gamer, those of us who simply want to be able to hop in and easily pick the game up, have a few kills and a laughs.
Catering to the comp players does nothing to help/grow the grassroots of the community.
The whole marine jumping as a valid dodging tactic has been a long standing issue expressed by many different players over the journey...most that complained have now given up playing.
Hopefully UWE do listen and implement one of the suggestions in this thread to limit the benefit marines get from jumping.
Oh I can take down marines as a skulk, but I have invested a lot more time than most casual gamers would (I also played NS1 so I have a long standing love of NS).
The issues more about how hard it is to keep track of marines when they jump out of your view (thanks to those wonderful teeth (and marines moan about their hud clutter!!)
Also the suggestions I, and others, have put up do not remove jump totally (except where its replaced by a dodge function that doesn't involve teh marine being able to jump out of you FOV so easily) but rather adapt it.
For example if you could jump twice in 5 seconds before needing to wait a few seconds before you could jump again a marine could still dodge but just not constantly.
Or removing their ability to shoot whilst jumping which again still allows that marine to dodge but not kill the alien until he is on the ground.
Sadly it seems that this community is not really worried about attracting new players and ensuring the game is accessible and enjoyable by new players and not just experienced players.
IF the argument "At a distance, only marines can kill skulks - while at melee range, both are able to kill one another - essentially giving marines the advantage" is used in order to present an issue in the core balance, then you need to also factor in other asymmetrical mechanics instead of ignoring them...
Like the fact that aliens are the quick, mobile team with naturally regenerating health and ammunition that are designed around wearing down the enemy and are not burdened with every player on the field having to be responsible for their team's expansion through building, allowing for a more focused and offensive force.
I mean.. i could go on.. but you get the point, i hope.
Yes i am pulling the asymmetrical card here - because it is actually highly relevant when discussing this subject.
Saying the opening quote above / your argument, is akin to me saying "Its not fair that aliens have a mechanic (BB) that explicitly is designed to destroy marine T3 tech Exos, when marines have no equal mechanic to destroy Alien T3 tech Oni"
Its just very narrowly considered and is ignoring the plethora of interdependent mechanics which build upon the asymmetrical nature and balance of this game.
Lastly.. a jumping marine only tricks the uninitiated skulk who does not realize this is the easiest timeframe to track the marine!
Just like a ducking and weaving skulk only tricks the uninitiated shotgun marine who does not know to wait for that optimum melee range meat shot.
So, just because one skill (movement) is harder to learn than another (aim) - solely due to the familiarity of it from mass saturation in the market (fps games) - does not mean both are exempt from being equal L2P issues..
The issue is with how jump works and the ridiculously unintuitive nature of it for new players, coupled with the outright advantage it offers (which some of the collision changes in past builds have illustrated at the extreme level).
I think you would agree that the reduction in vertical FOV as a result of "back of mouth" view makes tracking objects that pass over you difficult and it becomes something of trying to predict rather than track.
That a marine can continue to shoot and reload whilst jumping makes the loss of the marine all the more unforgiving to a new player.
You say it only offers an advantage against an unskilled skulk and that good skulks aren't thrown off.
Does that not really back up the calls to make the whole thing more new player friendly?
What is being suggested is not the removal of dodging but changing of how the mechanic functions.
Jump is legacy, it should not be how a big tough marine fights. Dodge should also have a downside (ie not firing/reloading) so it helps the marine live but not kill.
The game struggles to attract and retain new players, we all agree aliens takes a lot of time to learn all the classes and until you do you wont fully enjoy the game.
This is a massive deterrent for a lot of ppl and one that continues to course issues today.
Making the current dodge mechanic (ie jumping like a rabbit on crack) less powerful against new players would be a way of fixing this.
If it does not help against a good skulk all we would be doing is lowering the skill floor to make it more forgiving for new players.
The argument that the jump mechanic makes the game unnecessary difficult for new / casual players is also not right. If you change the jump mechanic so that marines have only 20% win chance in melee range combat, you won't make it easier for players with less skill. A mediocre skulk player against a mediocre marine may already win 70% of those battles. With your proposed change, he will be at nearly 100%. This just shifts the situation for new players from "ground skulking is frustrating" to "playing marine is frustrating". You don't make the game easier for less skilled players, you make it easier for alien players. This is a big difference.
And on top of all that you want to screw the balance (for nothing). Right now the early game is fairly good balanced. And it took month to get it to this point. This makes the statement "we will find other ways to balance marine vs skulk" not very convincing. It isn't that simple.
To your defense. I have met marines that were really good at outmaneuvering me with jump and it was frustrating. But it isn't the jump mechanic. It's their skill. They also were a real pain in the onus when they played aliens.
Marines should be better at range and Skulks better at melee. I would find that fair actually. But for me it feels as if Marines still way win more melee engagements. (That doesnt mean Skulks should be "equaly" good at melee as Marines at range, that would make it AvP style sh!t as someone mentioned).
Whats more easy to learn and do? The second. It followes the same pattern without much thinking needed. Space + W,A,S,D, some steps. Repeat. Also its not "track", but "predict". (Both sides)
My view is: Marine jump is too easy to perform for what benefit it gives.
The counterpoint is that predicting the movement and timing the bite is just as easy.
You can advocate the counterpoint easily here: That it is just a l2p issue and many skulks fail at it.
I however would have to prove that the jump is essential and easy to do also Marines win more melee engagements. See my dilemma? I can't prove it as we'll never see any stats in that regards. This is just how things feel for me right now. (Though it got loads better after recent patches)
Honestly, even if I didn't think all the anti-jumping arguments were incredibly stupid, everyone and their mom now owns NS2 after the last 8 Steam sales and now the HumbleBundle. Changing things to make the game easier to understand for new players at this point would be a waste of time.
Anyway. the game is relatively balanced after Sewlek put in hundreds of hours tweaking literally everything. Let's just be happy.
-Jump dodging is only really effective at dodging bad skulks like myself, since I only have about 1000 hours in this game I clearly need more practice.
-We are stupid for asking for its modification because the jump dodge is essential to keep the game balanced.
-jump dodge does not effect good skulks as they can predict the marines movement to land follow up bites, so for those of us who attempt to visually check the marines location and react are suffering from l2p issues
The arguments to keep it the way it is are much more conflicting and inconsistent than those of us arguing for its change. Just saying.
Anyway I like the idea of simply giving skulks better visibility to see the marine jumping around better. As someone pointed out, if we simply made the marine outline visible through the skulks horribly obstructive mouth closing that would probably qualm many of the concerns of noobs like me who simply haven't put the time in to learn how this all works.
Although Im sure the people in this thread will have some obscure reason why that is the stupidest idea ever and will ruin the game..
Do you hold down mouse 1 during engagements or do time your bites when you are looking at something (rhetorical question)? I could see being able to see through the teeth/gums when they are OPEN naturally being a pretty big fov increase on the Y axis. However, I personally don't feel the mouth being closed for the split second inhibits my aiming in any significant fashion....Though I suppose it would help for the times I wiff completely as the marine would be not in the center of my screen when I bit so I suppose the split second its closed he could move out of los..I dunno.
I know I lose marines more due to low contrast (aka the shitty default vision) then anything.
Better yet just unbind jump and tell me how long you survive, even in a pub.
It's like being on the NS2 forums
Only skilled players should find the game accessible?
Bit of a fucking elitist attitude to be showing.
How many people realise that without new players finding the game enjoyable is what allows a competetive scene to stay alive?
This is why CS brought in random HS and TF2 crits, both of these changes only helped narrow the gap between new, good and elite players allowing new players to still get some enjoyment and be willing to keep playing.
The unfriendly nature of the game is to the detriment of the game ability to grow in popularity and still be around being played in a few years (and not just by a core group of 700-900 players around the world).
Similar to the underslung GL some things need to be changed so that new players dont just get butt hurt all the time and can find element of the game enjoyable long enough to start to pick up some of the skill based movement thats so crucial to be half decent.
Holy shit, it's not that we don't want the game to attract new players and that only skilled people SHOULD play. It's that we don't want to dumb down the game so that while new players might enjoy it the rest of us hate its existence. Can it be done without doing that? Probably, but you better be fucking careful when you try because it's not going to be easy.
And that is WITH the current marine evasion. Now I don't profess to be anywhere near that level, but I do play competitively and I can see that without the ability for marines to evade even at current levels, they will get wiped completely.
You may well have over 1000h played, probably 100h+ more than me, but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty more room for improvement (for both of us). This is why we balance around the top players and try to bring everyone else up in skill as much as possible.
The diabolical default vision is a separate matter and has a separate thread, best not to dilute either discussion by merging.
The only proposal I've seen is a "dodge roll" which just sounds like a tasty snack for any skulk. No marine would dare use it. The other suggestion was no firing or reloading allowed during a jump.. Which is a better idea, but all it would result in is marines not jumping due to losing out on that precious time frame of sending bullets.. Which is basically the exact result as removing jump entirely because it would just be a noob trap.
SO... Let's direct this thread in a constructive direction (since many seem to not understand the way things are balanced or why mechanics are the way they are)
By having those advocating for change simply purpose a solution... Because just removing jump isn't one.
Edit : if you cannot see how that last claim isn't true / how removing jump would horribly imbalance the game currently while simultaneously watering it down.. Then you need not attempt to provide a suggestion, as you just don't understand the game at a basic level. I'm sorry if that sounds rude
The main argument I am making is marine jump (when used as a dodge during combat) is very easy to evade medium to low skilled skulks but has very little effect (if any) on high skilled aliens. For ex, Roebubba in those videos it is clear that with his level of tracking the marine, the jump dodge is providing zero benefit for the marines, he bites you no matter what you do, your only hope is to do enough damage to kill him or cause him to flee before you are dead. This is the case for most competitive players I have seen and played with. The only exception is when jetpacks are available but that has nothing to with jumping. Therefore, the marine jump as a dodge mechanic is really only useful for players to gain an advantage against medium to low skilled aliens, which discounts the argument that modifying the marine jump would cause competitive play to be imbalanced. I truly believe if the jump mechanic were modified to further slow the marine upon landing requiring a solid 1 second to reach full running speed again it would have zero effect on comp players fighting other comp players.
It would however have an effect on high skilled players evading medium to low skilled players. Which honestly, I don't see a problem with that. I think that is the point some posters here were trying to make about player retention for this game. Nobody enjoys playing a game where one team completely dominates the entire game because they have 1-2 players who go 50:2 meanwhile the other team is lucky to hold one of their natural res nodes for more than 30 seconds at a time.
Furthermore, I do see new players who do decent as marines but are horrible as aliens. One reason for this is the marine is so close to your typical FPS, another reason is aliens are harder to learn, but another major contributor is how easy the marine jump is to use as a dodge even for newer players. It really is not a high skill cap mechanic like some of you have suggested, its actually incredibly easy do jump away from a skulk at an angle that makes it difficult for him to reacquire you if he is not very experienced. This mechanic actually causes a major imbalance in new players playing other new players from my experience. Have you ever noticed how everyone just stands in the marine door in green servers? Its not ONLY because marines are more familiar, its also because new players usually get demolished when they play aliens because they are useless at skulking especially early game.
So in summary, my thoughts on nerfing the marine jump to cause a more significant delay upon landing to give slower skulks time to catch up to the marine:
1.) have essentially zero effect on competitive play
2.) make aliens much less frustrating for low to medium skilled players